#1 Edited by papad1992 (6815 posts) - - Show Bio

If your an avid X-Men reader like I am, then one of the most mysterious plot-lines never developed or furthered since its inception is the relationship between Dazzler, Longshot, and Shatterstar. Having recently read X-Factor #259, Peter David has revealed that plot-point. Now if you want to read the issue yourself than DO NOT read further...

So in this X-Factor issue, we get the follow up from the recently concluded story: The Hell on Earth War. At the end of the story, Shatterstar and Rictor both were seemingly killed by Mephisto... a few issues later we learn the fate of both members. They were seemingly thrown back in time, for an unknown reason, to the point in which Longshot led a rebellion against Mojo a long time ago. The issue opens up with Rictor, (who looks like Jesus) who has been imprisoned in a gladiator-type colosseum, to fight random fighters. During one match, Rictor notices that the man he is fighting has similar fighting styles to his boyfriend, Shatterstar. When it is revealed that Shatterstar is that man, only with no recollection of who Rictor is, the rebellion, led by Longshot, breaks in and kidnap Shatterstar, with Rictor accompanying them. Back to their base, Rictor tries effortlessly to try and make Longshot remember him but to no avail. We later find Arize, a "creator" or all things, who says that he "found" Shatterstar and cloned him, after Star tried an unsuccessful attack on Mojo. So Arize put his brain back on-line, on behalf of Rictor. It is now that we learn that Longshot is a clone of Shatterstar... only tweaked a bit more. Arize says plainly that Longshot is Shatterstar's "son." When a weakened Shatterstar awakens, Mojo bursts in and (with his troops) attacks the rebellion. Mojo proclaims that he will use his new "employ" to exterminate them... Spiral. Rictor is now confused, noting that Spiral isn't "new," which Star explains that Mephisto threw them back in time, but Rictor doesn't understand why. Star them teleports himself and Rictor out of there. When they reappear, they find themselves a little bit more into the future from their previous time in an abandoned old building with a woman screaming in the background. Rictor investigates only to find a pregnant Dazzler there. (**sidenote** do you guys remember when Dazzler and Longshot joined a rebellion a long time ago to stop Mojo, and Dazzler married Longshot and got pregnant, only for her to "lose the baby") Dazzler is in labor, and while Rictor argues about what's going on, Star acknowledges that she's going to give birth to him: Shatterstar (so now Shatterstar's son is Longshot who's son is Shatterstar... weird) With Dazzler asleep, Rictor holds the baby-Shatterstar, while Star explains that they have to keep the timeline correct. Star re-starts some old machinery to rewrite Dazzler's mind in order for her, and later Longshot, to have no recollection of Dazzler ever being pregnant, so that Star and Rictor could take the infant-Shatterstar 100 years in the future to be raised.

And that's where the issue ends...

What do you guys think? Is this a resolution to a long-overdue mystery? Or is it an addition to an already complicated relationship?

#2 Posted by BaBaBoom (274 posts) - - Show Bio

I found it extremely hilarious when I found out that Longshot and Shatterstar ended up being each other's father/son. In a way, can Longshot fathering his own father, or impregnating his grandmother (Dazzler), be considered incest?

#3 Posted by John Valentine (16270 posts) - - Show Bio

What came first, the sword-wielding chicken or the mulleted egg?

#4 Posted by M3th (1775 posts) - - Show Bio

Sounds like some Terminator $#!%. I think it's funny. His clone is his father. His father is his clone. His son is his "father."

#5 Edited by papad1992 (6815 posts) - - Show Bio

@bababoom: It is really weird... hopefully another issue will explain things further. But we are running low on how many issues we have left before the series is cancelled.

@m3th said:

Sounds like some Terminator $#!%. I think it's funny. His clone is his father. His father is his clone. His son is his "father."

It's really complicated that's what it is! I'm still trying to wrap my mind around it.

#6 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3472 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992: I like the cyclical, sci-fi nature of this explanation (reminds me of something from Red Dwarf), and also how it sort of works in a meta kind of way that parodies the convoluted, time-displaced X-character origin, yet still feels natural in continuity because of the characters involved. It may not be the most original explanation they could have come up with, but it's still kind of perfect..

The only thing that confuses me is why anyone would clone Shatterstar to not only have completely different powers, but kind of be less powerful, other than to complete the circuit of this convoluted destiny plot.

#7 Edited by BaBaBoom (274 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: I actually think Longshot's luck powers are far superior than whatever Shatterstar has. I remember him going up against Hulk 2099 in the original Exiles. My theory is that Arize is unable to duplicate Shatterstar's abilities and therefore gave Longshot a completely different set of powers.

#8 Posted by MyNameWasDeleted (679 posts) - - Show Bio

All I can say is Ugghhh, more time travel.. but really, how else do you un-paint yourself into a corner? Time travel is the only way out!

#9 Edited by slimlim (254 posts) - - Show Bio

Brilliant.

Peter David... i salute you.

Moving forward, i hope Longshot's mini series will be good. Longshot was to the 80s what Gambit was to the 90s.

#10 Edited by tomchu (522 posts) - - Show Bio

Explaining this to my friend is going to get... confusing.

#11 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3472 posts) - - Show Bio

@bababoom said:

@oldnightcrawler: I actually think Longshot's luck powers are far superior than whatever Shatterstar has. I remember him going up against Hulk 2099 in the original Exiles. My theory is that Arize is unable to duplicate Shatterstar's abilities and therefore gave Longshot a completely different set of powers.

okay, I guess that works.

@slimlim said:

Moving forward, i hope Longshot's mini series will be good. Longshot was to the 80s what Gambit was to the 90s.

when I think about X-men in the 80's, Longshot's one of the last characters I think of; he wasn't even around until 86, and was pretty much gone by 89. He's more like what Maggot was to the 90's, to me.

#12 Edited by papad1992 (6815 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992: I like the cyclical, sci-fi nature of this explanation (reminds me of something from Red Dwarf), and also how it sort of works in a meta kind of way that parodies the convoluted, time-displaced X-character origin, yet still feels natural in continuity because of the characters involved. It may not be the most original explanation they could have come up with, but it's still kind of perfect..

The only thing that confuses me is why anyone would clone Shatterstar to not only have completely different powers, but kind of be less powerful, other than to complete the circuit of this convoluted destiny plot.

I agree with your further analysis and explanation! But I wouldn't go as far to say that Longshot is less powerful! Longshot has Psychometry, Probability Manipulation, Enhanced Senses and Skills, and is a Weapons Master... Shatterstar has an Energy-based power, Teleportation, Enhanced Senses and Skills, and is a Weapons Master. So they are similar but in a different fashion.

#13 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3472 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with your further analysis and explanation! But I wouldn't go as far to say that Longshot is less powerful! Longshot has Psychometry, Probability Manipulation, Enhanced Senses and Skills, and is a Weapons Master... Shatterstar has an Energy-based power, Teleportation, Enhanced Senses and Skills, and is a Weapons Master. So they are similar but in a different fashion.

haha! okay, okay, point taken..

#14 Posted by fodigg (6094 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought it was a clever way to poke fun at how long the mystery lasted. I like the idea that they comprise a sort of time-traveling ouraborus.

#15 Posted by papad1992 (6815 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992 said:

I agree with your further analysis and explanation! But I wouldn't go as far to say that Longshot is less powerful! Longshot has Psychometry, Probability Manipulation, Enhanced Senses and Skills, and is a Weapons Master... Shatterstar has an Energy-based power, Teleportation, Enhanced Senses and Skills, and is a Weapons Master. So they are similar but in a different fashion.

haha! okay, okay, point taken..

Just trying to make a point. :P

Mojo wanted to "tweak" Shatterstar into his vision of a perfect fighter/entertainer... so I think he definitely accomplished his task of differentiating the two. Granting Longshot psychometry (which is an awesome power) and probability manipulation.

#16 Posted by slimlim (254 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimlim said:

Moving forward, i hope Longshot's mini series will be good. Longshot was to the 80s what Gambit was to the 90s.

when I think about X-men in the 80's, Longshot's one of the last characters I think of; he wasn't even around until 86, and was pretty much gone by 89. He's more like what Maggot was to the 90's, to me.

Woah! Maggot?? really?? thats a low blow dude! LOL

i meant more as the kind of character he was, rather than the impact he made. he was styled for the era, he had a strange persuasive power over the ladies, he was agile, he throws stuff,etc.

I liked Longshot back in the day. my only issue with him was he's not a mutant. not even human. so he never really seemed like an X-Man to me. More kinds just passing through and got mixed up with them. Whatever struggles the mutants faced, he seemed more like he was just along for the ride.

#17 Posted by oldnightcrawler (3472 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimlim said:

Woah! Maggot?? really?? thats a low blow dude! LOL

i meant more as the kind of character he was, rather than the impact he made. he was styled for the era, he had a strange persuasive power over the ladies, he was agile, he throws stuff,etc.

yeah. That's actually one of the reasons I didn't like Gambit at first ( I love him now, though); I felt like they were trying to make a cooler, more bad-ass version of Longshot to fill his role on the team.

I liked Longshot back in the day. my only issue with him was he's not a mutant. not even human. so he never really seemed like an X-Man to me. More kinds just passing through and got mixed up with them. Whatever struggles the mutants faced, he seemed more like he was just along for the ride.

I was never all that into Longshot on the X-men, but these are actually the things I liked about him as an X-man; he was an outsider among outsiders, which was probably his saving grace for me. He still just felt like a cheap replacement for Nightcrawler.

Even after all of these years, Longshot and Dazzler still bug me for that reason. I was totally fine with Claremont replacing Cyclops and Rachel with Havok and Psylocke; but replacing Kitty and Nightcrawler, the heart and soul of the team, with, basically comedy relief.. it just seemed cheap.

I can totally appreciate how they (and Rachel) kind of needed to be separated from the X-men to really develop more as characters, but I guess I could never get behind their replacements. That said, it probably doesn't help that I'm not a big fan of that period of X-men in general.

#18 Posted by slimlim (254 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimlim said:

Woah! Maggot?? really?? thats a low blow dude! LOL

i meant more as the kind of character he was, rather than the impact he made. he was styled for the era, he had a strange persuasive power over the ladies, he was agile, he throws stuff,etc.

yeah. That's actually one of the reasons I didn't like Gambit at first ( I love him now, though); I felt like they were trying to make a cooler, more bad-ass version of Longshot to fill his role on the team.

I liked Longshot back in the day. my only issue with him was he's not a mutant. not even human. so he never really seemed like an X-Man to me. More kinds just passing through and got mixed up with them. Whatever struggles the mutants faced, he seemed more like he was just along for the ride.

I was never all that into Longshot on the X-men, but these are actually the things I liked about him as an X-man; he was an outsider among outsiders, which was probably his saving grace for me. He still just felt like a cheap replacement for Nightcrawler.

Even after all of these years, Longshot and Dazzler still bug me for that reason. I was totally fine with Claremont replacing Cyclops and Rachel with Havok and Psylocke; but replacing Kitty and Nightcrawler, the heart and soul of the team, with, basically comedy relief.. it just seemed cheap.

I can totally appreciate how they (and Rachel) kind of needed to be separated from the X-men to really develop more as characters, but I guess I could never get behind their replacements. That said, it probably doesn't help that I'm not a big fan of that period of X-men in general.

Aaahhh. I see where you're coming from now. I never really thought of Longshot as a "replacement" for Nightcrawler. But now that you mention it... I see it.

I guess the difference would be different entry points into the world of the X-Men. For me, i started when the X-Men were already in Australia. Fall of the Mutants era.

#19 Edited by oldnightcrawler (3472 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimlim: yeah, I didn't get into the X-men until '92, but the first book I got into was X-men Classic. It was right around the time Rogue was joining the team, so that era's still my point of reference.

#20 Posted by papad1992 (6815 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

I thought it was a clever way to poke fun at how long the mystery lasted. I like the idea that they comprise a sort of time-traveling ouraborus.

It sort of gave us an answer... without really giving us an answer,if you get what I mean. The continuous cycle, like you stated, can be compared to the dilemma of causality (What came first? The chicken or the egg?). I think it was brilliantly done on Peter David's part, but I find my mind stuck in a loop of confusion if I think hard enough on the relationship.

#21 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

Does no one have a problem with Dazzler giving birth to a child and the child taken away from her? She gave birth to a child physically and yet, she will go forward in life thinking....what exactly? And her mind being re-written? And this happened before her joining up with SHIELD?

No one?

I have to read X-Factor. Something about that title and pregnancies and the cavalier way newborns are flopped around....

I'm not touching the rest of this ridiculous story. Even knowing Rogue at one point crushed on Longshot is enough to make me....

Ugh. This is too...strange.

#22 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (3274 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Does no one have a problem with Dazzler giving birth to a child and the child taken away from her? She gave birth to a child physically and yet, she will go forward in life thinking....what exactly? And her mind being re-written? And this happened before her joining up with SHIELD?

No one?

I have to read X-Factor. Something about that title and pregnancies and the cavalier way newborns are flopped around....

I'm not touching the rest of this ridiculous story. Even knowing Rogue at one point crushed on Longshot is enough to make me....

Ugh. This is too...strange.

I do. It's one of those creepy Marvel-type things to do in order to keep a hot female character from becoming a mom. I would have just loved it if they revealed that there was a big fight, Dazzler got injured and lost the baby and Shatterstar was some other random person in the Mojoverse.

#23 Posted by Avenger85 (1523 posts) - - Show Bio

What bullshit.

Why did Marvel have to go through all this shit ? Just make Longshot Shatterstar's dad & be done with it.

Instead they give us thi convoluted Terminator incest crap. GG Marvel.

#24 Posted by lykopis (10756 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Does no one have a problem with Dazzler giving birth to a child and the child taken away from her? She gave birth to a child physically and yet, she will go forward in life thinking....what exactly? And her mind being re-written? And this happened before her joining up with SHIELD?

No one?

I have to read X-Factor. Something about that title and pregnancies and the cavalier way newborns are flopped around....

I'm not touching the rest of this ridiculous story. Even knowing Rogue at one point crushed on Longshot is enough to make me....

Ugh. This is too...strange.

I do. It's one of those creepy Marvel-type things to do in order to keep a hot female character from becoming a mom. I would have just loved it if they revealed that there was a big fight, Dazzler got injured and lost the baby and Shatterstar was some other random person in the Mojoverse.

That would have worked for me. I am still trying to wrap my head around this. I think there is going to be a Longshot mini (I need to find the thread where I saw that) -- I can't help but think it's going to be expanded in that but ugh -- I would rather they didn't. Just leave this be -- it's too freaking WEIRD.

#25 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2467 posts) - - Show Bio

@papad1992:

okay i still dont get it. Shatterstar is longshot's father and vice versa??? So if dazzler selpt with longshot wouldnt that be her son?????

#26 Posted by HAWK2916 (1335 posts) - - Show Bio

why does this have to be so convoluted and really just overall stupid. I expected better from PAD but this aboit the dumbest of the dumb. I really hate that about so many of the x- characters. Their backgroud stories are needlessly confusing and ridiculous. Sometimes I'd rather someone come along and kill these characters off so we dont have to deal with, try to understand, or try to explain this type of nonsense

#27 Posted by mikex20 (2769 posts) - - Show Bio

#28 Edited by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2467 posts) - - Show Bio
#29 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (3274 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916 said:

why does this have to be so convoluted and really just overall stupid. I expected better from PAD but this aboit the dumbest of the dumb. I really hate that about so many of the x- characters. Their backgroud stories are needlessly confusing and ridiculous. Sometimes I'd rather someone come along and kill these characters off so we dont have to deal with, try to understand, or try to explain this type of nonsense

LOL

#30 Posted by slimlim (254 posts) - - Show Bio

@hawk2916 said:

why does this have to be so convoluted and really just overall stupid. I expected better from PAD but this aboit the dumbest of the dumb. I really hate that about so many of the x- characters. Their backgroud stories are needlessly confusing and ridiculous. Sometimes I'd rather someone come along and kill these characters off so we dont have to deal with, try to understand, or try to explain this type of nonsense

haha! yeah it really does get quite messy.

But i would say PAD did a good job with an almost impossible situation. The whole Longshot/Shatterstar mystery was dragged out for sooooo long that i think no matter what the writers came up with, people werent gonna be satisfied. I think the very nature of these characters and the world where they came from sort of makes their "origin" all the more suitable. In a way, its almost like Jerry Springer meets time-space travel.

#31 Posted by papad1992 (6815 posts) - - Show Bio

@slimlim said:

@hawk2916 said:

why does this have to be so convoluted and really just overall stupid. I expected better from PAD but this aboit the dumbest of the dumb. I really hate that about so many of the x- characters. Their backgroud stories are needlessly confusing and ridiculous. Sometimes I'd rather someone come along and kill these characters off so we dont have to deal with, try to understand, or try to explain this type of nonsense

haha! yeah it really does get quite messy.

But i would say PAD did a good job with an almost impossible situation. The whole Longshot/Shatterstar mystery was dragged out for sooooo long that i think no matter what the writers came up with, people werent gonna be satisfied. I think the very nature of these characters and the world where they came from sort of makes their "origin" all the more suitable. In a way, its almost like Jerry Springer meets time-space travel.

Good points... I agree. At least now us fans have something concrete to this relationship rather than a mystery!