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#1 Posted by marvelfan1992 (35 posts) - - Show Bio

So i saw a thread on the Battle Forum on jean grey vs quentin but there were not many replies but it got me curious. So I'm wondering which of them is more powerful or basically, better. I don't mean like who would win in a fight between the 2 specifically but like who would you pick as more powerful or better. I don't know if we are allowed to directly compare them as in who would win between them in this forum since it's not the battle forum (i'm new here) but if we are then do please give your 2 cents worth :)

#2 Posted by DEGRAAF (7866 posts) - - Show Bio

I think you need to verfy which version of Jean Grey you are talking about. Welcome to the vine.

Currently There are multiple Jean Grey's in the main Marvel Universe. There is a Jean Grey from the past that is just now getting in touch with her powers and abilities as well as a Jean Grey from the future that we know very little about besides her say she has grown very powerful. The Jean Grey from the present is considered dead. Last we saw her she was the Phoenix and she was in the white Hot Room searching for her missing pieces. We do know that since we last saw her we have seen missing pieces of the Phoenix removed from other powerful telepaths as well we have seen the Phoenix return to earth (without Jean), broken into 5 pieces only to be merged back together and controlled by Hope Summers for a short time before disbanding the Phoenix entity to restart the mutant race.

I know that kind of went off topic of Jean vs Quentin but to talk about Jean you have to talk about the Phoenix.

#3 Posted by darthphoenix (635 posts) - - Show Bio

jean.

#4 Posted by M3th (2031 posts) - - Show Bio

Kid Omega

-Abstract 4$$#073-

#5 Edited by mechem_93 (122 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean is the superior psychic.

#6 Edited by martinceld (330 posts) - - Show Bio

well according to the consensus in the jean vs kid omega thread, jean grey

#7 Edited by Dernman (14606 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean

#8 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (10899 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean Grey.

#9 Posted by LimitlessPower (80 posts) - - Show Bio

get real! kid omega anyday!

#10 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean. She has commanded the power of the Phoenix on multiple occasions, she has borrowed Cable's telekinesis to a variety of effects including but not limited to illuminating caves and changing the molecules of her clothes to create a new outfit, she has projected Xavier's psionic essence into a massive populace and withdrew it to put it back in his body, demonstrated tremendous physically destructive force even when just a telepath as well as only when just a telekinetic.

Kid Omega is noted to have potential. He is powerful, but he has not been depicted displaying the full versatile and inventive use of his powers required to be a true alpha level challenge yet. He is still put in his place by Rachel. Rachel can't put Jean in her place.

Note: I cite the one Jean that is well known, not future Jean or young, not fully tested Jean.

#11 Posted by darthphoenix (635 posts) - - Show Bio

Both are omega levels but jean is more trained.

#12 Posted by Squares (4667 posts) - - Show Bio

Better at what?

#13 Posted by darthphoenix (635 posts) - - Show Bio

i think he meant better in use of power

#14 Posted by TDK_1997 (14397 posts) - - Show Bio

Writers many times have told us that Jean Grey is the strongest psychic ever which is the biggest mistake ever in my opinion.For me Quire can become better and he is a way better character than Jean.

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#15 Posted by darthphoenix (635 posts) - - Show Bio

i think jean grey can tap on the powers of the phoenix force without being a host.

#16 Edited by Stormcell (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean Grey is not at all impressive without the PF, sorry guys. I don't know much about Kid Omega, but a Non-Phoenix Force Jean Grey can't even compete with characters like the White Queen (Emma Frost) and Exodus in TP showings. I don't read about Kid Omega, so I don't know what his feats are, but I do know that Jean Grey without the PF is not impressive DESPITE rhetoric some issues have stated about her powers. She doesn't have the power without the PF to merit what some issues have stated about the scope of her abilities.

#17 Edited by Dayvid3 (807 posts) - - Show Bio

Omega is young and doesn't have all that much training it seems, so hard to tell. Jean on her own is hard to tell, but going by how they handle the good guys, if she's really all that powerful without phoenix, she'd have to have some depowering episode, otherwise the bad guys wouldn't have been all that big a threat to the X-men. Of course they keep corpsing her up, so maybe she was. I hadn't really read much of her stuff, just a guess.

#18 Posted by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: Sorry but that is all completely false.

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#19 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Other than being told that Kid Omega is an alpha... What has he done so far to be compared to Jean Grey sans Phienix Force?

And Kid Omega is many stories behind driving a book or characters to even make a good fight, other than one off in supporting comments.

For those who pick Kid Omega-- what has he done to demonstrate himself as a powerhouse or inspirational character?

#20 Edited by comicbookfan93 (392 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I like Quentin Quire more as he has an actual personality, even if he is a bit of a douche at times, Jean I find a bit boring

#21 Edited by Dayvid3 (807 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I like Quentin Quire more as he has an actual personality, even if he is a bit of a douche at times, Jean I find a bit boring

Indeed

#23 Posted by Stormcell (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@stormcell: Sorry but that is all completely false.

Everything I said was correct. Exodus was consistently shown to be a stronger telepath than Jean Grey. He effortlessly expelled her out of his fight with such force he knocked her from her feet. He accomplished this while simultaneously waging a battle with Holocaust. He is an overall much more powerful psi than non-Phoenix Jean when comparing feats.

In regards to Jean Grey sans PF vs. Emma Frost, Emma is also superior to Jean in skill and power. I can recall an issue where Emma was psychically attacking another character and Jean Grey, who was in the room, was overwhelmed by Emma's mental attack on someone else. On top of that, Emma demonstrated the power and skill to do psychic surgery on a major scale in an old New Mutants issue where she was able to win the New Mutants away from Magneto for a time and gain their trust. Jean, on the other hand, has no such showings. As a matter of fact, during "Fatal Attraction", when she and Xavier entered Magneto's mind to attack him mentally, she thought Magneto was fighting them until Xavier had to explain to her that Magneto was in actuality fighting himself. Furthermore, in Wolverine issue 75 or so, Xavier had to explain to Jean what their astral selves where composed of.

Emma Frost has been able to use her telepathy for physical attacks on at least two occasions. The first was when she was in the middle of a fight against a Phoenix-powered Jean Grey. Emma focused her full psi into a single strike with blew up the building she and Phoenix were fighting in. In another instance, she confronted Monet St. Croix in "Generation X" and channeled all of the ambient psionic energy in the air into a "psionic lightning bolt" when had a physical affect on M effectively knocking her out. Jean Grey, when deprived of her TP, was always physically vulnerable to physical attacks from sources that did not have a mind for her TP to work on. This shows both skill and power Emma has over non-Phoenix Jean. Emma has also been able to defeat telepaths more powerful than herself because of her skill level. Jean, on the other hand, loses in psychic encounters against slightly above novice psis more powerful than herself. This was one of the hallmarks of the Exodus/Jean confrontations. Exodus had incredible raw power (moreso than Jean), but he was still kind of a novice with his abilities, yet he was able to consistently get the better of Non PF Jean Grey in ALL of there encounters. This shows that Emma Frost has the skill to defeat telepaths who are more powerful than she, but less skilled while Jean Grey loses against novice telepaths more powerful than she.

Non PF Jean Grey is not impressive at all. She can beat the likes of Psylocke, but Emma Frost and Exodus are too much for her UNLESS Emma Frost is devalued for Jean to look good.

#24 Edited by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: You danced around most of the facts and context behind most of those instances you used. You're downplaying Jean by using instances where she wasn't even established as a telepath and completely ignoring all her history after the DP Saga. She was only a telekinetic up until her fight with Psynapse, where she unintentionally unlock her telepathy so at that time she was rusty in the use of her tp. Then she gave Psylocke her tk in exchange for her telepathy and that,s when the Phoenix Raptor began appearing and her powers progress then on.

Jean using her telepathy for a mental/physical attack

As far as Emma vs Jean. Jean has always been the superior telepath in every encounter they have had with and without Phoenix. I've never seen Emma do anything Jean hasn't already done and then some. Psychic surgery?

Jean Grey telekinetically construct Ms. Frost on a molecular level all while placing her consciousness back in her body and retaining surgical information from Hank.

Psionic lightning?

Jean duplicating Wolverine's claws that actually caused Pilgrimm physical harm.

Emma's defeated other powerful telepaths?

Override's Apocalypse's possession over Cyclops and frees him.
Challenging and later defeating Gamemaster and Omnipath whose telepathy spans greater than Xavier himself.

As far as Jean being sensitive to psychic back lash it doesn't validate Emma being on par with Jean in any way.

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#25 Edited by Stormcell (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010:

I am aware of everything you have posted in your scans. Let me address them in order:

1) The first scan you produced where she manifested that Phoenix rapture, notice that it was pink and not fire like a true Phoenix Force rapture. That said, this feat doesn't count for Jean since she had not only her own telepathy, but Psylocke's TP was added to her own. Hence, she was a much more powerful telepath than what she would have been naturally. The author of this thread wants to know who is the superior psi between Jean Grey and Quire where both characters are acting solely on the merits of their own natural power without any outside enhancements. Jean's TP here was boosted far more than usual since she also had Betsy's TP added to her own.

2) In the second scan, Jean was accessing the Phoenix Force, hence its nullified.

3) In the third scan, she still has Psylocke's power added to her own, so that scan is nullified. Not only that, but if I remember correctly, Pilgrim being hurt by Jean's "claws" were only an illusion. Illusions are not an impressive TP feat. Emma, Psylocke, Jean and a bunch of other psis use illusions as well.

4) Psylocke's TP was added to Jean's TP here as well, so this doesn't count for a feat showing how powerful Jean's TP is.

5) Did you read the Gamesmaster issue for yourself? In that issue, Gamesmaster took control of the mind of an entire town. The issue stated which psis were strong enough to pull off what Gamesmaster did. It was stated clearly that Emma Frost, Selene, Mastermind and Shadow King all had the power to do what Gamesmaster did. That said, Gamesmaster is a weaker psi than Xavier. He is an omnipath in that he automatically hears all thoughts on the planet, but he is not as powerful a psi as the Professor. Xavier was always the most powerful psi on the planet. The only times he lost that title was when you had the occasional Shadow King appearances and Legion.

I listed feats Emma Frost pulled that Jean Grey has not been able to match. You have yet to prove that she can.

#26 Edited by fodigg (6130 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not sure how fond I am of Quire with the Phoenix Force as it reminds me of how awful Endsong was.

EDIT: Wait, you meant Jean without but not necessarily Quire with. Well then I'd just say I find Quire more entertaining generally. Jean is played out. Both of their power levels fluctuate wildly.

#27 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

As much as I LOVE Emma, let's look at a some major points that clearly establish Jean as the superior psi.

Both characters have been depicted hosting the Phoenix force, but only Jean has successfully hosted the full force without it burning her up or driving her mad(notably in Morrison's run and excluding the original story as Jean was in a healing cocoon then). When Enma has hosted the Phoenix, it either almost burned her out of life or just a portion of it affected her into a power thirst she couldn't control. Emma is not strong enough for this task, but Jean is up to the full task as well as drawing incrementally on the force at will.

The aforementioned incident were Jean was affected by psychic backlash from Emma attacking someone with heavy psi shields would be akin to someone being at risk of stray billets while observing a gun fight.

This was Uncanny #281. How could someone cite this story as demonstrating Jean as weak while selectively leaving out Jean's display of telepathic might by halting and powering down a the onset of a mighty mutant brawl heading by Colossus and Beef? Emma was very impressed.

OR note that in the very next issue it was revealed that Jean survived a Sentinel attack by transferring mind into Emma's comatose body. Emma has transferred her mind into another body but only had access to the powers of her host. This so called "weak" Jean did one other hitherto unseen feat- Jean either also transferred her own telekinesis into Emma's body or she temporarily activated Emma's latent telekinesis while Jean possessed Emma's body.

To be fair, maybe whoever is calling Jean weak by using this story as supporting evidence did not finish reading the whole story. Note: this is a non Phoenix powered Jean.

With this supporting information, Jean is clearly depicted as more powerful than Emma.

#29 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3892 posts) - - Show Bio

As much as I LOVE Emma, let's look at a some major points that clearly establish Jean as the superior psi.

Both characters have been depicted hosting the Phoenix force, but only Jean has successfully hosted the full force without it burning her up or driving her mad(notably in Morrison's run and excluding the original story as Jean was in a healing cocoon then). When Enma has hosted the Phoenix, it either almost burned her out of life or just a portion of it affected her into a power thirst she couldn't control. Emma is not strong enough for this task, but Jean is up to the full task as well as drawing incrementally on the force at will.

The aforementioned incident were Jean was affected by psychic backlash from Emma attacking someone with heavy psi shields would be akin to someone being at risk of stray billets while observing a gun fight.

This was Uncanny #281. How could someone cite this story as demonstrating Jean as weak while selectively leaving out Jean's display of telepathic might by halting and powering down a the onset of a mighty mutant brawl heading by Colossus and Beef? Emma was very impressed.

OR note that in the very next issue it was revealed that Jean survived a Sentinel attack by transferring mind into Emma's comatose body. Emma has transferred her mind into another body but only had access to the powers of her host. This so called "weak" Jean did one other hitherto unseen feat- Jean either also transferred her own telekinesis into Emma's body or she temporarily activated Emma's latent telekinesis while Jean possessed Emma's body.

To be fair, maybe whoever is calling Jean weak by using this story as supporting evidence did not finish reading the whole story. Note: this is a non Phoenix powered Jean.

With this supporting information, Jean is clearly depicted as more powerful than Emma.

Good post, just wanted to point out that what made the transfer into Emma so impressive to Xavier was that Jean did in fact transfer her tk into Emma body and had nothing to do with Emma having latent tk. It can be speculated that since any tk Emma showed was after this encounter and since we know Jean can give others powers (like giving Betsy tk and reactivating her own instead of actually taking back what she gave Betsy), Jean could have very well left residual tk in Emmas body.

#30 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

This has always been an interesting point with psi talents. The underlined theme is that anyone considered a psi could potential access both telepathy and telekinesis at the height of their potential.

It did seem that Jean transfered her tk in that story. And if so, that was a great feat to possess another body and still maintain the visitor's power set for one not accustomed to full on possession.

Emma to my knowledge has only ever shown a possible telekinetic talent around Generation X # 20 or so when she whisks kids away and while in a sleep stake telekinetically levitates objects including salad ingredients until M wakes her up at which point everything falls to the ground.

Whichever take you choose, Jean demonstrated a superior psi talent. We have not had many Jean/Emma direct power confrontations. And Emma is noted to be the most superior or adept at psychic surgery in history.

Most recent psi battle, Emma fell to older Jean with young Jean on Emma's side. Young Jean proved to have better stamina and more raw power than older Jean in the long run though.

A great battle we have not posed would be a direct battle between Emma and Quire. Rachel is not as ruthless as Emma and Rachel has key him in check on the school grounds-- thus another major point. Rachel has never been shown keeping Jean in check but has been shown keeping Quentin in check.

Who is stronger/better? Jean wins in this depiction.

#31 Edited by martinceld (330 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

This has always been an interesting point with psi talents. The underlined theme is that anyone considered a psi could potential access both telepathy and telekinesis at the height of their potential.

It did seem that Jean transfered her tk in that story. And if so, that was a great feat to possess another body and still maintain the visitor's power set for one not accustomed to full on possession.

Emma to my knowledge has only ever shown a possible telekinetic talent around Generation X # 20 or so when she whisks kids away and while in a sleep stake telekinetically levitates objects including salad ingredients until M wakes her up at which point everything falls to the ground.

Whichever take you choose, Jean demonstrated a superior psi talent. We have not had many Jean/Emma direct power confrontations. And Emma is noted to be the most superior or adept at psychic surgery in history.

Most recent psi battle, Emma fell to older Jean with young Jean on Emma's side. Young Jean proved to have better stamina and more raw power than older Jean in the long run though.

A great battle we have not posed would be a direct battle between Emma and Quire. Rachel is not as ruthless as Emma and Rachel has key him in check on the school grounds-- thus another major point. Rachel has never been shown keeping Jean in check but has been shown keeping Quentin in check.

Who is stronger/better? Jean wins in this depiction.

I'm actually confused by the recent battle in BOTA because first future jean says she just kept getting stronger as she grew older and can only take the mask off for a few mins(im assuming to keep her power in check) and kinda schools young jean but later on she begins losing to young jean who just very recently discovered her TP and says "God, I forgot how strong I used to be" and eventually lost. So did she get stronger or did she get weaker? And too bad Emma was only using the TP of the cuckoos to fight jean it would have been a better feat for jean if Emma actually had her own TP on top of the cuckoos and lost

#32 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@martinceld:

Marvel logic. Humans with power have a flaw. Their power is not limitless. The power and effect of the power is dependent on the health and endurance of the wielder.

Karma has the power to possess people which she could use to protect her family, but this power was nullified at a critical time for her leaving her defenseless because she was near starved and/or sick. Scarlet Witch recently fought Thor and has the ability to go toe to toe with him with risk of being tired out in the end which would take her out of the game.

Future Jean is powerful. She had just telepathically frozen all but telepathic X-men in place. She just took on and initially defeated Emma, her girls as well as Jean Grey. Unless future Jean has unlimited power, this left Jean worn out and less than top of her game. A younger Jean with stronger endurance overpowered a recently exhausted Jean-- logical.

As for Emma not being at full power, a successful character improvises with what they do have. Once when Emma didn't have telepathy, she took someone out with a whole watermelon. The fact that Emma was resourceful enough to combine her skills with her girls and young Jean's power was impressive and made her as formidable as she could be for now. Think of a powerless Storm taking on Cyclops before the Pryor cheat reveal.

To date- readers have never had a direct confrontation between full powered, non Phoenix powered modern Jean and a full powered Emma. Ever. And I would love to see that.

Also note: Emma's girls used skill to team up and "school" young Jean before. But here again, even young Jean shows more powerful by surviving longer than people who attacked her and coming out on top. Young Jean is inexperienced but not weak.

#33 Posted by martinceld (330 posts) - - Show Bio

@martinceld:

Marvel logic. Humans with power have a flaw. Their power is not limitless. The power and effect of the power is dependent on the health and endurance of the wielder.

Karma has the power to possess people which she could use to protect her family, but this power was nullified at a critical time for her leaving her defenseless because she was near starved and/or sick. Scarlet Witch recently fought Thor and has the ability to go toe to toe with him with risk of being tired out in the end which would take her out of the game.

Future Jean is powerful. She had just telepathically frozen all but telepathic X-men in place. She just took on and initially defeated Emma, her girls as well as Jean Grey. Unless future Jean has unlimited power, this left Jean worn out and less than top of her game. A younger Jean with stronger endurance overpowered a recently exhausted Jean-- logical.

As for Emma not being at full power, a successful character improvises with what they do have. Once when Emma didn't have telepathy, she took someone out with a whole watermelon. The fact that Emma was resourceful enough to combine her skills with her girls and young Jean's power was impressive and made her as formidable as she could be for now. Think of a powerless Storm taking on Cyclops before the Pryor cheat reveal.

To date- readers have never had a direct confrontation between full powered, non Phoenix powered modern Jean and a full powered Emma. Ever. And I would love to see that.

Also note: Emma's girls used skill to team up and "school" young Jean before. But here again, even young Jean shows more powerful by surviving longer than people who attacked her and coming out on top. Young Jean is inexperienced but not weak.

Yeah I'm up to date and all, and Emma really did do good by making the most of the resources she has on hand, but despite having the 3 cuckoos at her disposal, their raw power as a hive is still <Emma at her full power, it just would have been great to finally see a confrontation like that haha! I still don't know how I feel about young jean beating future jean, despite future jean maybe getting worn out from the blondes (which I highly doubt) we know that skill and experience play a very great deal when it comes to TP and young jean really doesn't have much of either, compared to a future jean, and I assume future jean's raw power is also a lot greater.

#34 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3892 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri said:

@martinceld:

Marvel logic. Humans with power have a flaw. Their power is not limitless. The power and effect of the power is dependent on the health and endurance of the wielder.

Karma has the power to possess people which she could use to protect her family, but this power was nullified at a critical time for her leaving her defenseless because she was near starved and/or sick. Scarlet Witch recently fought Thor and has the ability to go toe to toe with him with risk of being tired out in the end which would take her out of the game.

Future Jean is powerful. She had just telepathically frozen all but telepathic X-men in place. She just took on and initially defeated Emma, her girls as well as Jean Grey. Unless future Jean has unlimited power, this left Jean worn out and less than top of her game. A younger Jean with stronger endurance overpowered a recently exhausted Jean-- logical.

As for Emma not being at full power, a successful character improvises with what they do have. Once when Emma didn't have telepathy, she took someone out with a whole watermelon. The fact that Emma was resourceful enough to combine her skills with her girls and young Jean's power was impressive and made her as formidable as she could be for now. Think of a powerless Storm taking on Cyclops before the Pryor cheat reveal.

To date- readers have never had a direct confrontation between full powered, non Phoenix powered modern Jean and a full powered Emma. Ever. And I would love to see that.

Also note: Emma's girls used skill to team up and "school" young Jean before. But here again, even young Jean shows more powerful by surviving longer than people who attacked her and coming out on top. Young Jean is inexperienced but not weak.

Yes readers have had a direct confrontation between a full powered non-Phoenix modern Jean and full powered Emma and Jean won without any trouble whatsoever in New Xmen. Jean was not empowered by the Phoenix until after she was killed by Wolverine, the evidence that she was not using the Phoenix before that is overwhelming, had she been using the actual Phoenix Force and not expanding and exploring her own powers (as was stated) there would have been no need for the Phoenix consciousness to be released by her death, she could have just transported them back to Earth, as there is no such thing as a somebody that is actually tapping the Phoenix being unable to travel in space unhindered with passengers. Before that there was an entire silent issue basically showing that Jean was more powerful than Emma and Xavier as she simply strolled through his mind having no issues with the defenses that were placed there by Nova to keep him trapped. Emma was stopped by the first line of defense spending the entire time trapped by them, and of course Xavier was trapped there.

People seem to have a hard time making a distinction between Jean using Phoenix imagery (which she had been consistently doing since right after OZT), and actually using the Phoenix Force, something Jean actually never did until after she was resurrected in the Sun. She was pretty clear when she told Beast not worry about her because she was no cosmic destroyer and told Wolverine that the Phoenix was only speaking to her, on a level so deep it took a telepathic probe and permission for Xavier to even speak to the Phoenix. If Jean was THE PHOENIX, the steps Xavier had to take to speak to the Phoenix would not have been necessary. As she said if she let it get close it would replace her, the fact that he had to probe to speak to it shows that she never allowed it to get close enough to be considered Phoenix empowered. Jean is an omega level mutant all her own, it would make no sense to even mention her being such a mutant if the only time she can be powerful is when the Phoenix is involved. She spoke about her own powers (tk in particular) returning and expanding, but Jean never said it was due to the Phoenix and it was heavily implied that her tk sensitivity was due to a secondary mutation and was so powerful that it was regarded as a manifestation of the Phoenix because she was naturally evolving into Phoenix level power via mutation.

This has always been an interesting point with psi talents. The underlined theme is that anyone considered a psi could potential access both telepathy and telekinesis at the height of their potential.

It did seem that Jean transfered her tk in that story. And if so, that was a great feat to possess another body and still maintain the visitor's power set for one not accustomed to full on possession.

Emma to my knowledge has only ever shown a possible telekinetic talent around Generation X # 20 or so when she whisks kids away and while in a sleep stake telekinetically levitates objects including salad ingredients until M wakes her up at which point everything falls to the ground.

Whichever take you choose, Jean demonstrated a superior psi talent. We have not had many Jean/Emma direct power confrontations. And Emma is noted to be the most superior or adept at psychic surgery in history.

Most recent psi battle, Emma fell to older Jean with young Jean on Emma's side. Young Jean proved to have better stamina and more raw power than older Jean in the long run though.

A great battle we have not posed would be a direct battle between Emma and Quire. Rachel is not as ruthless as Emma and Rachel has key him in check on the school grounds-- thus another major point. Rachel has never been shown keeping Jean in check but has been shown keeping Quentin in check.

Who is stronger/better? Jean wins in this depiction.

It didn't seem like she transferred her tk, she did transfer it. It was why Xavier mentioned the feat at all. All humans have the potential to possess both telepathy and telekinesis it the reason magic users and Moondragon can use them both through training and Topaz has it naturally. As part of what the Celestials did to early humans all humans have the potential to tap nearly unlimited psionic potential.

That is what I was talking about Emma and this latent tk talk only happened after she actually had tk transferred into her body and never before, when given a chance to give her tk they opted to give her another power as a secondary mutation, which leads me to believe that latent tk thing was really just fan talk based those two instances, both of which only happened in the presence of the M (really the M twins) and some strange energy they were giving off when Synch used tk, IIRC. I don't know if it's noted that she is the most superior in that field, she has just been shown to actually use it as opposed to others.

#35 Posted by youmessinwithme (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

Both are omega levels but jean is more trained.

this,Jean has also displayed more raw power.

#36 Edited by martinceld (330 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans said:.

Yes readers have had a direct confrontation between a full powered non-Phoenix modern Jean and full powered Emma and Jean won without any trouble whatsoever in New Xmen. Jean was not empowered by the Phoenix until after she was killed by Wolverine, the evidence that she was not using the Phoenix before that is overwhelming, had she been using the actual Phoenix Force and not expanding and exploring her own powers (as was stated) there would have been no need for the Phoenix consciousness to be released by her death, she could have just transported them back to Earth, as there is no such thing as a somebody that is actually tapping the Phoenix being unable to travel in space unhindered with passengers. Before that there was an entire silent issue basically showing that Jean was more powerful than Emma and Xavier as she simply strolled through his mind having no issues with the defenses that were placed there by Nova to keep him trapped. Emma was stopped by the first line of defense spending the entire time trapped by them, and of course Xavier was trapped there.

People seem to have a hard time making a distinction between Jean using Phoenix imagery (which she had been consistently doing since right after OZT), and actually using the Phoenix Force, something Jean actually never did until after she was resurrected in the Sun. She was pretty clear when she told Beast not worry about her because she was no cosmic destroyer and told Wolverine that the Phoenix was only speaking to her, on a level so deep it took a telepathic probe and permission for Xavier to even speak to the Phoenix. If Jean was THE PHOENIX, the steps Xavier had to take to speak to the Phoenix would not have been necessary. As she said if she let it get close it would replace her, the fact that he had to probe to speak to it shows that she never allowed it to get close enough to be considered Phoenix empowered. Jean is an omega level mutant all her own, it would make no sense to even mention her being such a mutant if the only time she can be powerful is when the Phoenix is involved. She spoke about her own powers (tk in particular) returning and expanding, but Jean never said it was due to the Phoenix and it was heavily implied that her tk sensitivity was due to a secondary mutation and was so powerful that it was regarded as a manifestation of the Phoenix because she was naturally evolving into Phoenix level power via mutation.

Are you referring to this?

#37 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3892 posts) - - Show Bio

@martinceld said:

@lordofallhumans said:.

Yes readers have had a direct confrontation between a full powered non-Phoenix modern Jean and full powered Emma and Jean won without any trouble whatsoever in New Xmen. Jean was not empowered by the Phoenix until after she was killed by Wolverine, the evidence that she was not using the Phoenix before that is overwhelming, had she been using the actual Phoenix Force and not expanding and exploring her own powers (as was stated) there would have been no need for the Phoenix consciousness to be released by her death, she could have just transported them back to Earth, as there is no such thing as a somebody that is actually tapping the Phoenix being unable to travel in space unhindered with passengers. Before that there was an entire silent issue basically showing that Jean was more powerful than Emma and Xavier as she simply strolled through his mind having no issues with the defenses that were placed there by Nova to keep him trapped. Emma was stopped by the first line of defense spending the entire time trapped by them, and of course Xavier was trapped there.

People seem to have a hard time making a distinction between Jean using Phoenix imagery (which she had been consistently doing since right after OZT), and actually using the Phoenix Force, something Jean actually never did until after she was resurrected in the Sun. She was pretty clear when she told Beast not worry about her because she was no cosmic destroyer and told Wolverine that the Phoenix was only speaking to her, on a level so deep it took a telepathic probe and permission for Xavier to even speak to the Phoenix. If Jean was THE PHOENIX, the steps Xavier had to take to speak to the Phoenix would not have been necessary. As she said if she let it get close it would replace her, the fact that he had to probe to speak to it shows that she never allowed it to get close enough to be considered Phoenix empowered. Jean is an omega level mutant all her own, it would make no sense to even mention her being such a mutant if the only time she can be powerful is when the Phoenix is involved. She spoke about her own powers (tk in particular) returning and expanding, but Jean never said it was due to the Phoenix and it was heavily implied that her tk sensitivity was due to a secondary mutation and was so powerful that it was regarded as a manifestation of the Phoenix because she was naturally evolving into Phoenix level power via mutation.

Are you referring to this?

Yes, that is Jean Grey using Phoenix imagery, she didn't become Phoenix/Jean until a few issues later.

#38 Posted by adamTRMM (1205 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

You lie to yourself? Because it is pretty clear PF up there. The whole assault is starting from JG's statement "you, me and the phoenix". And if you still want to try just don't, because in no way JG on herself is able to revive anybody who is shattered to pieces and because their consciousness "still out there".

#39 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

Please re-read the Morrison run or even the panel where Jean needs Logan to kill her so that she may fully access the Phoenix force which is evidence she had been accessing it up to that point. Jean Grey on her own would not be powerful enough to bring a shattered Emma back to life or pour Xavier's mind into everyone on the planet and bring it back even with Cerebro. Further evidence that she was drawing on Phoenix was her emotional withdrawal from Scott and the Sh'iar warning.

Emma could have defended herself more against a non PF Jean. Also telling was Jean's comment that she wouldn't fry Emma's brain this time which is a reference to only the Phoenix version of Jean, not the Jean who was miles away in a healing cocoon.

#40 Edited by LordOfAllHumans (3892 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: @adamtrmm

I have read it several times and have read every appearance of Jean since after OZT which consistently showed her never tapping the Phoenix force and constantly displaying a fire bird. Jean was learning to manipulate molecules (something a Phoenix empowered individual does not have to do, as manipulating matter and energy anyway you see fit comes naturally to them) and she did not put Emma back together on her own, she tapped into Beasts mind to get his knowledge of anatomy to do it and Emmas consciousness was still present among the pieces, which means she did not pass into the afterlife and all she needed was her body in one piece to be revived, something that would have not been necessary with the Phoenix Force, as she needed no such help to rebuild not only her and Wolverine but also his adamantium, creating a ship and power it with the raw materials of the Sun, as I said earlier if she had been tapping the Phoenix all along none of that would have been needed, she could have simply flown to the asteroid and back under her own power, but she couldn't because the Phoenix was dormant. It was Scotts emotional withdrawal from her due to being fused with Apocalypse that caused their problems, the Shi'ar warning only stated that the Phoenix was coming and it was no secret by Jeans on words that the force was speaking to her, not until the consciousness was released by her death was she actually tapping the Phoenix. The comment to Emma about not throwing bolts of psychic lightning also proves that Jean was just messing with Emma, because the "Jean Grey" that actually did that to Emma was not the real Jean Grey, but the Phoenix Force pretending to be her. It was pretty clear in the issue when she saved Xavier that Emma was not on Jeans level, and it was obvious from the fact that nano-sentinels in her blood stream were killing her and the feat of holding Xaviers mind was causing her to bleed that she was not using the Phoenix Force. More evidence that Jean doesn't need the Phoenix to beat Emma is in Endsong when Emma has the power of the Phoenix and Jean does not, as stated by the Phoenix, and Jean psi blasts her and removes it in a single gesture.

Below is Jean with a telepathic Phoenix raptor to show more evidence that she uses it's image and name to strike fear into the hearts of others, just like she did to Emma in their battle.

#41 Posted by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: I could mince and crouble your post but it seems other have done it for me. Anyways the point still remains Jean has always been a superior psi than Emma as stated by herself. The feats just validate how much advance Jean is to Ms. Frost.

Also The mere fact that Gamemaster can connect to 6 billion minds without even trying places him above most telepaths save Jean. Why did Selene need him to start the Upstarts?

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#42 Edited by PhoenixGustly (1 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell

Hey, that's my first post.

Adult Jean recently defeated Emma, the Cuckoos, and young Jean together.

(Sorry for my bad english, i'm from Brazil)

#43 Posted by martinceld (330 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell

Hey, that's my first post.

Adult Jean recently defeated Emma, the Cuckoos, and young Jean together.

(Sorry for my bad english, i'm from Brazil)

Emma didn't have her TP at this time though as was just using the power of the cuckoos, which I don't think is all that great because emma was shown to be stronger than tons of cuckoos in phoenix endsong/warsong, it would have been nice to see her have her full power vs future jean, but still future jean would have most likely owned

#44 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

No one is discounting that she used the imagery before. If you think Jean tapping into Beast's mind was all it took to put Emma back together again without power drawn from the Phoenix force or that she became withdrawn from Scott after fighting so hard to free him from his possession, that makes no sense. At all.

As for Morrison's use of Phoenix imagery, google foreshadowing and expand your reading experience going forward. The use of the imagery was a building block to the ultimate part of her story not just an inconsequential scare tactic. On that note, I settle my case here and move on.

By the way, Wikipedia agrees with me that she was drawing on PF after Scott was no longer possessed and that caused withdrawal damaging her marriage. This part of the story was conveyed excellently by the writer.

#45 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3892 posts) - - Show Bio

@lordofallhumans:

No one is discounting that she used the imagery before. If you think Jean tapping into Beast's mind was all it took to put Emma back together again without power drawn from the Phoenix force or that she became withdrawn from Scott after fighting so hard to free him from his possession, that makes no sense. At all.

As for Morrison's use of Phoenix imagery, google foreshadowing and expand your reading experience going forward. The use of the imagery was a building block to the ultimate part of her story not just an inconsequential scare tactic. On that note, I settle my case here and move on.

By the way, Wikipedia agrees with me that she was drawing on PF after Scott was no longer possessed and that caused withdrawal damaging her marriage. This part of the story was conveyed excellently by the writer.

Why would Jean need the Phoenix to put Emma back together? Her pieces were all present and shaped in the form of her body, Beast was viewing her remains as a puzzle and did much of the work, she needed his knowledge of anatomy to make sure she didn't put her internal organs in the wrong places, as Phoenix she would not have needed this information. Jean has shown in her history to manipulate matter as small cellular and nano-tech in prime sentinels and was learning how to manipulate molecules when her tk returned in New Xmen (something that is not needed by a wielder of the Phoenix Force, they just do it), so fusing Emma back together would be no hard task for a tk with Jeans level of power and experience coupled with Beasts knowledge. Even Rachel can manipulate molecules and genomes and Jean is more powerful than her. As I said there is no proof that being Phoenix changes Jeans ability to feel compassion and makes her cold, because there is no instance of her being Phoenix before she came out of the Sun to back that claim. The Jean you are talking about from the early Phoenix year was not Jean Grey, it was the Phoenix being manipulated by Mastermind. His attitude towards her changed and everything in general changed and she decided on focusing on other things. How does it make no sense? So the only way Jean can be tired of crap is if she is Phoenix? Your insistence that this proves she was Phoenix when nothing on panel backs your theory is what makes no sense. At all.

I am well of aware of what foreshadowing means, it used throughout the series to tell us the Phoenix was coming, not that it was already there, as shown when Xavier needed a deep probe and permission from Jean to speak to it. As shown when she could not simply use the Phoenix to save Wolverine and herself, and as shown when she said him killing her is what released the Phoenix. The imagery that you are claiming was part of this was being used for years before this story came out, not to mention her using the name for years before that as her new code name. Jean began using the Phoenix imagery to take ownership of her power and to put the "ghost" of Dark Phoenix to rest, it was an affirmation that Jean is her own woman without the Phoenix Force, or did you even read anything before New Xmen?

By the way wikipedia agreeing with you only means that the person that edited the Jean Grey page, like you, has no concept of what was going on. I can easily go in there and change that information, so if that's your argument we can pretty much end this back and forth.

#46 Edited by Stormcell (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@roddy010 said:

@stormcell: I could mince and crouble your post but it seems other have done it for me. Anyways the point still remains Jean has always been a superior psi than Emma as stated by herself. The feats just validate how much advance Jean is to Ms. Frost.

Also The mere fact that Gamemaster can connect to 6 billion minds without even trying places him above most telepaths save Jean. Why did Selene need him to start the Upstarts?

The feats they are using to prove Jean is stronger than Emma involves Jean using the PF. They don't count. During the Morrison run, Jean had the PF, hence, when she battled Emma, she told her that it was now just her (Jean), Emma and the Phoenix. This nullifies all impressive feats Jean did during the Morrison run. So, again, where are Jean's impressive feats without the PF?

Also, Gamesmaster was never the most powerful psi. His particular mutation automatically enables him to hear the thoughts of everyone on the planet, yet it took ALL of his power to enslave a town's population of people. Shadow King, on the other hand, was able to enslave BILLIONS of people at once across the whole globe. Shadow King is much more powerful than Gamesmaster and considered only Xavier as a possible threat to him. Therefore, just because one's particular mutation equates to them hearing every thought on the planet does not make them the most powerful psi. Emma Frost, Mastermind and Selene were all said to have the power to enslave that whole town which took ALL of Gamesmaster's power to do. The inference here is Emma is stronger than Gamesmaster as well.

#47 Posted by Roddy010 (5113 posts) - - Show Bio

@stormcell: Read Above Post. I'm not about to keep repeating myself.

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#48 Posted by turel_hash_ak_gik (350 posts) - - Show Bio

jean grey, phoenix force or not.

#49 Posted by martinceld (330 posts) - - Show Bio

Apparently, future jean seems to be stronger than future phoenix quire based on BOTA part 9 (wolverine & x-men 37)

Read the scans from right to left! CV is screwing up the order

Quire himself says "xorn is more powerful than you can imagine" and then later on she goes up against phoenix quire, teen jean, both cyclops and that future ironman guy. she is eventually overpowered but i think its safe to say phoenix quire couldn't stand up to her

#50 Edited by Crimsonlord53 (1290 posts) - - Show Bio

Jean she can simply break kid,s body and mind **** him at the same time.