#1 Edited by krspaceT (1466 posts) - - Show Bio

We all know that everyone's favorite Fuzzy Dude is returning soon, and with that it is always plausible to change things about him now. Now, I do not mean making him purple or having him become a member of the Church of Sciencetology.

I was thinking about changing his origin to what it was originally meant to be.

According to what I have read, it was originally intended for Kurt to be the child of Mystique and Destiny (...Shapeshifting allowing this to happen), but because of when this story was originally made (Claremont era), it wouldn't have flown at all.

He was instead made the son of a literal demon, which apparently no one likes, while many fans, and some writers, like the above option

Should they implement that with his return?

#2 Edited by Dernman (14888 posts) - - Show Bio

@krspacet: IIRC his father was retconned into being a type of mutant called the Neyaphem that just masqueraded as a demon.

I liked how he got his looks from his father but received his skin color from his mother.

#3 Posted by ArturoCalaKayVee (11309 posts) - - Show Bio

When was Nightcrawler's origin not the son of Mystique? I thought his parents were Mystique and Azazel. Makes sense why he's blue and can BAMF.

#4 Posted by JakeN7 (11527 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

I liked how he got his looks like his father but received his skin color from his mother.

Yes! I've always loved that. Azazel+Mystique=Nightcrawler. When it comes down to a pure genetic level, the pairing's always been perfect.

#5 Posted by hyiena (1790 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the idea of Sabretooth as his father. Wasn't that implied in X-men Evolution.

#6 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@arturocalakayvee:

Before Azazel ever existed in comics, the idea had long been stated that Mystique and Destiny were supposed to be Kurt's parents. However, the 70s, 80s and 90s culture climates would not allow such a story to take place. Azazel came later on after this idea had circulated for over a decade or so.

#7 Edited by ArturoCalaKayVee (11309 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: I don't know much about Destiny or her relationship with Mystique so I personally like the idea of Azazel and Mystique being Kurt's parents because it makes sense to me, genetically. and it's the origin I'm used to for Kurt. Why do you like the Destiny/Mystique origin more?

#8 Posted by frozenedge (1193 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyiena: I thought it was implied Magneto was Kurt's father? for a while?

#9 Edited by hyiena (1790 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozenedge: I remember one time her saying she went threw a lot of trouble finding him a father with fur or something. Nevermind that might be the AOA version.

#10 Posted by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

I was just into the idea of Kurt being the product of Mystique and just some dude. The fact that he looks like and has the same powers as his father is kind of contrived and the Destiny thing is OK, but I would think due to Mystiques abilities she would have multiple lovers, with Destiny being the one she truly loves.

#11 Posted by adamTRMM (1518 posts) - - Show Bio

I was just into the idea of Kurt being the product of Mystique and just some dude. The fact that he looks like and has the same powers as his father is kind of contrived and the Destiny thing is OK, but I would think due to Mystiques abilities she would have multiple lovers, with Destiny being the one she truly loves.

So you wanted him to be a product of true love? How sweet ;)

Actually, I hope we'll get some credible explanation of how he is coming back and I'd like him to get some upgrade, I mean he is one of the most recognizable teleporters and he was far from being a powerful one.

#12 Posted by Emequious_Swerve (1268 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

So you wanted him to be a product of true love? How sweet ;)

Actually, I hope we'll get some credible explanation of how he is coming back and I'd like him to get some upgrade, I mean he is one of the most recognizable teleporters and he was far from being a powerful one.

lol. No, I don't like the idea of him being the child of Destiny and Mystique, Destiny appears to be in her seventies at least when Kurt is his twenties.....I guess that means he was born when Destiny was 50?? It just has to many avenues that require some complicated explanation.

I am saying while Mystiques true love is Destiny her mental instability from pretending to be different people all the time leads to her have different lovers. I like the idea that Kurts dad could have just been some German guy, no one of significance.

#13 Edited by mechem_93 (122 posts) - - Show Bio

Azazel is such an awful character I agree....but no retcons. It will make Kurt's history unnecessarily convulted.

#14 Posted by frozenedge (1193 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyiena: that might've been AoA Mystique i think

#15 Edited by adamTRMM (1518 posts) - - Show Bio

@emequious_swerve said:

lol. No, I don't like the idea of him being the child of Destiny and Mystique, Destiny appears to be in her seventies at least when Kurt is his twenties.....I guess that means he was born when Destiny was 50?? It just has to many avenues that require some complicated explanation.

Is THAT a problem here? I mean, it would actually turn Mystique into his father... It is an interesting idea and all, but weird stuff is running through my head right now.. My point is the age is not an issue here =)

I am saying while Mystiques true love is Destiny her mental instability from pretending to be different people all the time leads to her have different lovers. I like the idea that Kurts dad could have just been some German guy, no one of significance.

I don't mind Azazel as his father, don't really know much about him, but that explains Crawlers looking and abilities.

#16 Posted by McKlayn (1073 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved claremonts idea, i thought it was original and really gave you this cool twist. Destiny and Mystique are a great pairing, however with that said

i dont think it needs to be changed, it works dont mess with it you know?

#17 Posted by LordOfAllHumans (3978 posts) - - Show Bio

@krspacet said:

We all know that everyone's favorite Fuzzy Dude is returning soon, and with that it is always plausible to change things about him now. Now, I do not mean making him purple or having him become a member of the Church of Sciencetology.

I was thinking about changing his origin to what it was originally meant to be.

According to what I have read, it was originally intended for Kurt to be the child of Mystique and Destiny (...Shapeshifting allowing this to happen), but because of when this story was originally made (Claremont era), it wouldn't have flown at all.

He was instead made the son of a literal demon, which apparently no one likes, while many fans, and some writers, like the above option

Should they implement that with his return?

I thought Nightcrawlers origin story had him being the son of a human count and that his birth caused her to revert to her true, coupled with Kurt's own appearance which freaked everybody out, and then they retconned it into her having an affair with Azazel making him the real father?

#18 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Mystique and Destiny was the original concept and a unique idea. There were many years to get used to the idea before Azazel was created and tossed into the mix.

It also should be noted that it was hinted that Mystique was closely connected then probably Nightcrawler's mom before that revelation came to light.

A unique quality that Nightcrawler lost was looking like a demon without being one. The mutation making him appear demonic while he was more human than the humans who feared and hated him was a great story point.

#19 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12855 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

@krspacet: IIRC his father was retconned into being a type of mutant called the Neyaphem that just masqueraded as a demon.

I liked how he got his looks from his father but received his skin color from his mother.

this. as long as i've known about Nightcrawlers dad, this has been his story.

#20 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12855 posts) - - Show Bio

Mystique and Destiny was the original concept and a unique idea. There were many years to get used to the idea before Azazel was created and tossed into the mix.

It also should be noted that it was hinted that Mystique was closely connected then probably Nightcrawler's mom before that revelation came to light.

A unique quality that Nightcrawler lost was looking like a demon without being one. The mutation making him appear demonic while he was more human than the humans who feared and hated him was a great story point.

Kurt hasn't lost that quality and if he did, he got it back a long time ago. Azazel is (at least currently) a mutant who poses as a Demon just like Mephisto is a Deviant who poses as a demon. Destiny is a barren old woman, i can't see her biologically being a mother to Kurt.

I've always liked the idea of Kurt's family and wised that they would expand upon his relationship both sides.

@adamtrmm said:

@emequious_swerve said:

lol. No, I don't like the idea of him being the child of Destiny and Mystique, Destiny appears to be in her seventies at least when Kurt is his twenties.....I guess that means he was born when Destiny was 50?? It just has to many avenues that require some complicated explanation.

Is THAT a problem here? I mean, it would actually turn Mystique into his father... It is an interesting idea and all, but weird stuff is running through my head right now.. My point is the age is not an issue here =)

It is when you take menopause into account,i know its possible she hadnt had it yet but still......

I am saying while Mystiques true love is Destiny her mental instability from pretending to be different people all the time leads to her have different lovers. I like the idea that Kurts dad could have just been some German guy, no one of significance.

I don't mind Azazel as his father, don't really know much about him, but that explains Crawlers looking and abilities.

same here. i actually like the idea.

@adamtrmm said:

So you wanted him to be a product of true love? How sweet ;)

Actually, I hope we'll get some credible explanation of how he is coming back and I'd like him to get some upgrade, I mean he is one of the most recognizable teleporters and he was far from being a powerful one.

lol. No, I don't like the idea of him being the child of Destiny and Mystique, Destiny appears to be in her seventies at least when Kurt is his twenties.....I guess that means he was born when Destiny was 50?? It just has to many avenues that require some complicated explanation.

I am saying while Mystiques true love is Destiny her mental instability from pretending to be different people all the time leads to her have different lovers. I like the idea that Kurts dad could have just been some German guy, no one of significance.

I remember hearing that Mystique did love Baron Wagner but he wasnt satisfying her or giving her a son which is why she cheated on him,or are you simply saying you like the other idea?

#21 Posted by BloodTalon (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: where did you hear that? Nightcrawler is the guy that got me into comics and I have never herd that before.

but to answer your question no I don't like that idea. As long as Azazel is just a mutant posing as a demon I like it.

#22 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4418 posts) - - Show Bio

@krspacet: I liked the Mystique and Destiny origin when it was part of urban legend, but doing a retcon of the origin they actually went with (that he's the son of Mystique and Azazel) just seems pointless now. Retcons just needlessly complicate things.

#23 Posted by poisonfleur (3016 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved the idea as Destiny as his mother.

#24 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

I am amazed at the people who are upset that Nightcrawler's recent origin of the last several years has not always been his origin since the 70s. I get that may be the only origin you've known, but it does not make it retroactively the only origin he has ever had or was hinted to have for those who have a history with comics more than ten years.

It's ok that you didn't know about that unpublished origin, that Storm was originally going to be a cat like superhuman, or Jean and Phoenix were originally one and the same.

As for Destiny being old, she was not born old. Nor would she have given birth to Nightcrawler right before her X-men debut.

Not sure if I like or buy mutants pretending to be demons, like the demons wouldn't know. And I have always taken it to be a philosophical argument offered by a demon not the gospel of comic book science. For example, suggesting the devil is a mutant simple because his idealology deviated not his genes.

#25 Posted by JROCK72 (412 posts) - - Show Bio

I kinda like Azazel and Mystique as Nightcrawler's parents. They make a perfect combination that seems extremely accurate. I do like Mystique and Destiny, but isn't Destiny the mother of Blindfold?

#26 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12855 posts) - - Show Bio

@hyiena said:

I like the idea of Sabretooth as his father. Wasn't that implied in X-men Evolution.

no lol.

#27 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (12855 posts) - - Show Bio

I am amazed at the people who are upset that Nightcrawler's recent origin of the last several years has not always been his origin since the 70s.

I dont think anyone is upset about it, just dismissive. some people just dont give credit to things unless they were actually published or explicitly hinted at.

I get that may be the only origin you've known, but it does not make it retroactively the only origin he has ever had or was hinted to have for those who have a history with comics more than ten years.

It's ok that you didn't know about that unpublished origin, that Storm was originally going to be a cat like superhuman, or Jean and Phoenix were originally one and the same.

I didn't know Storm was going to be a cat-woman. weird. i knew Logan was going to be a mutated wolverine...

As for Destiny being old, she was not born old. Nor would she have given birth to Nightcrawler right before her X-men debut.

true. she'd probably be in her late 40's or early 50 where its still possible.

Not sure if I like or buy mutants pretending to be demons, like the demons wouldn't know.

Its not meant to fool other demons. its to mess with humans. its like Mephisto. it earns more fear from mortals because they think that they're dealing with the big boss.

And I have always taken it to be a philosophical argument offered by a demon not the gospel of comic book science. For example, suggesting the devil is a mutant simple because his idealology deviated not his genes.

#28 Edited by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

Um, no? Why is there any need to do that?

The Mystique/Destiny thing seems horrible to me. Not that I'm against them as a couple, but I think the idea of Azrael being the father is a much better fit. Second to that, it's more in keeping with Mystique's deception to use sexual promiscuity as a weapon to get what she wants. Having a constant reminder of her loving relationship with Destiny just goes against what Marvel's trying to do with her at the moment.

#29 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4418 posts) - - Show Bio

Since the whole argument for the Mystique and Destiny origin is that it, supposedly, what was intended by Claremont, I think it's also probably worth mentioning that Nightcrawler's origin before he was ever in any comic was that he was descended from a race that had been the basis for mythological demons. This is Dave Cockrum's character sheet for him:

"his race is the basis for the legends of demons"

Given that this was Cockrum's vision of the character, I can't help but feel like the Azazel/Mystique origin is a pretty elegant marriage of the two ideas.

#30 Edited by AsgardianXeno929 (839 posts) - - Show Bio

The reason Azazel and Mystique seem like the perfect pairing to be his parents is because that was the point, it wasn't that they had those two and decided to make nightcrawler, it was more like "hey, we have nightcrawler, mystique could be the mom since she's blue with yellow eyes... hmm lets create a suitable dad, one that gives nightcrawler his demonic appearance and powers"

#31 Posted by TheFirstLantern (1505 posts) - - Show Bio

When was Nightcrawler's origin not the son of Mystique? I thought his parents were Mystique and Azazel. Makes sense why he's blue and can BAMF.

#32 Edited by _Gaff_ (3263 posts) - - Show Bio

@krspacet said:

According to what I have read, it was originally intended for Kurt to be the child of Mystique and Destiny (...Shapeshifting allowing this to happen), but because of when this story was originally made (Claremont era), it wouldn't have flown at all.

The most devout Catholic X-Men is the result of a same sex relationship......PERFECT!!!!

#33 Edited by SC (12896 posts) - - Show Bio

Nightcrawer being the son of Azazel is a retcon of sorts, and its kind of lazy in my opinion really. Chuck Austen was the writer and his run was heavily criticized for one reason for how he wrote Nightcrawler's background. Since Destiny couldn't be his mother due to the nature of Nightcrawler being conceived by two women being too out there for the times, Kurt's father being a human was sort of cool, since it demonstrates the true nature of mutation - change. That a human could have a son that looked demonic, such a rapid mutation and one that would make Kurt the victim of bigotry and fear.

Retconning his father into looking like another demonic looking mutant is like changing Iceman's father into a snowman, Colossus father into a fridge and Rockslides father into a boulder. Just cliche really. I would not mind if a good retcon overwrite a bad retcon and they implemented CC's idea into his origin.

Moderator
#34 Edited by BloodTalon (430 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: not only do I agree with you, I too kind of like Azazel but I also appreciate that you provided some proof of your claims instead of spouting unfounded bs like some others.

I hope that if the M/D thing is what CC wanted that it is forgotten, if that was how it was who knows how I would feel but it is not and that kind of change at this point is just dumb

BTW I still don't think that that was ever the plan. I want proof that's all.

Don't get me wrong I love M/D relationship and I think that D is the only one that M actually loved.

#35 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4418 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: not only do I agree with you, I too kind of like Azazel but I also appreciate that you provided some proof of your claims instead of spouting unfounded bs like some others.

I hope that if the M/D thing is what CC wanted that it is forgotten, if that was how it was who knows how I would feel but it is not and that kind of change at this point is just dumb

BTW I still don't think that that was ever the plan. I want proof that's all.

Don't get me wrong I love M/D relationship and I think that D is the only one that M actually loved.

I doubt it will ever be entirely forgotten, simply because it is such a neat idea, but it's not like it's really that much cooler than what they actually went with. I'm not a huge fan of the story that origin comes from, but for what it is, it's alright.

And I do think Azazel's a neat idea for a character/addition to Nightcrawler and Mystique's mythos, personally.

#36 Posted by MASTER_OF_SUPRISE (535 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't really see the point of changing the origin so no.

#37 Posted by PhoenixoftheTides (3508 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, please.

@sc said:

Nightcrawer being the son of Azazel is a retcon of sorts, and its kind of lazy in my opinion really. Chuck Austen was the writer and his run was heavily criticized for one reason for how he wrote Nightcrawler's background. Since Destiny couldn't be his mother due to the nature of Nightcrawler being conceived by two women being too out there for the times, Kurt's father being a human was sort of cool, since it demonstrates the true nature of mutation - change. That a human could have a son that looked demonic, such a rapid mutation and one that would make Kurt the victim of bigotry and fear.

Retconning his father into looking like another demonic looking mutant is like changing Iceman's father into a snowman, Colossus father into a fridge and Rockslides father into a boulder. Just cliche really. I would not mind if a good retcon overwrite a bad retcon and they implemented CC's idea into his origin.

Exactly.

#38 Posted by BloodTalon (430 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12855 posts) - - Show Bio

Since the whole argument for the Mystique and Destiny origin is that it, supposedly, what was intended by Claremont, I think it's also probably worth mentioning that Nightcrawler's origin before he was ever in any comic was that he was descended from a race that had been the basis for mythological demons. This is Dave Cockrum's character sheet for him:

"his race is the basis for the legends of demons"

Given that this was Cockrum's vision of the character, I can't help but feel like the Azazel/Mystique origin is a pretty elegant marriage of the two ideas.

yep, i forgot that Kurt was originally supposed to be a member of the Legion Of Superheroes.

#40 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4418 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: yeah, Claremont may have made Nightcrawler great, but it's not like he invented him. Or had ever actually explained his origin.

#41 Posted by _Gaff_ (3263 posts) - - Show Bio

I think its to late to retcon, but I wish Claremont's origin stuck. Devout Catholic Nightcrawler the result of a same sex relationship. That would throw Kurt for a loop. Just imagine how awkward Thanksgiving would be.

#42 Posted by Thunderscream (1809 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish he was just the fraternal twin brother of Graydon Creed.

The entire Neyaphim storyline, while I get that it pays homage to what was intended to be his Legion origin, was such a clusterfudge with that giant plothole of Azazel teleporting out of his dimension to impregnate women and bare teleporting children to open a portal so he could escape....uuuuuh

Not a fan of Mystique gettin' busy as a man, baby. I'm not even sure she could arrange her internal organs to perform such a feat until her powers were amplified way after Kurt was already full grown. She and Destiny were already parenting Rogue together. Just because she's a long lived metamorph doesn't mean she needs to be the momma and or the pappa of every other mutant in the MU.

#43 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

I hate the idea that Nightcrawler looks like a demon not because he's a misunderstood mutant but because he's actually half demon. It absolutely kills the core of the character. The Mystique/Destiny pairing made much more sense, but I preferred even the random human father to Azazel. Azazel should not exist.

#44 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (12855 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

I hate the idea that Nightcrawler looks like a demon not because he's a misunderstood mutant but because he's actually half demon. It absolutely kills the core of the character. The Mystique/Destiny pairing made much more sense, but I preferred even the random human father to Azazel. Azazel should not exist.

but he isn't actually half demon. Azazel is a confirmed mutant.

#45 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

I hate the idea that Nightcrawler looks like a demon not because he's a misunderstood mutant but because he's actually half demon. It absolutely kills the core of the character. The Mystique/Destiny pairing made much more sense, but I preferred even the random human father to Azazel. Azazel should not exist.

but he isn't actually half demon. Azazel is a confirmed mutant.

A confirmed subspecies of mutants that are for all practical purposes demons. And Angel from a subspecies of mutants that are for all practical purposes angels. And Wolverine werewolves. Ugh, I hated that stuff.

#46 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12855 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

@fodigg said:

I hate the idea that Nightcrawler looks like a demon not because he's a misunderstood mutant but because he's actually half demon. It absolutely kills the core of the character. The Mystique/Destiny pairing made much more sense, but I preferred even the random human father to Azazel. Azazel should not exist.

but he isn't actually half demon. Azazel is a confirmed mutant.

A confirmed subspecies of mutants that are for all practical purposes demons. And Angel from a subspecies of mutants that are for all practical purposes angels. And Wolverine werewolves. Ugh, I hated that stuff.

I can definitely agree on the Wolverine part. I guess the whole Neyaphem doesn't bug me as long as they aren't actual demons but i guess thats subjective. If it had been someone like Marduk Kurios or Asmodeus that'd be a different story.

#47 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4418 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

@avenging_x_bolt said:

but he isn't actually half demon. Azazel is a confirmed mutant.

A confirmed subspecies of mutants that are for all practical purposes demons. And Angel from a subspecies of mutants that are for all practical purposes angels. And Wolverine werewolves. Ugh, I hated that stuff.

I kind of know what you mean. On the one hand, I like the way it makes sense of characters like Angel and Nightcrawler in the way that, in the MU, all mythology is actually based on some sci-fi pretext; it does make more sense that the myths would be based on mutants (or aliens or whatever) than that people would actually be born to mutate into stuff that just happened to resemble mythological beings.

But, on the other hand, it makes me feel the way I felt when I watched Muppets From Space and found out that Gonzo wasn't actually a mutated turkey or whatever; it just makes the character seem less special. That's the problem with revealing the origins of characters who seem so anomalous, like Wolverine or Nightcrawler; so much of what's cool about them is that sense of anomaly and mystery. You always want to know more, but then when you actually get an explanation (especially of this sort), it's hard to not feel like the characters have lost something.

For me, especially in regards to Wolverine and Nightcrawler (who are my two favorites), I guess I feel like if I really like a character, it doesn't matter if they're in a bad story from time to time; any origin (or action, or death) can ultimately be regarded as just a theory, or just for now, because someone else is bound to do something else that redeems the character later, regardless of their colorful histories.