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#51 Posted by UltimateJonathan (107 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

@ageofhurricane: Not really, all she was before was Cyclops Sex toy. How can anyone prefer Emma over Jean when it comes to being Cyclops partner is beyond me. She suck as Cyclops partner, all she did was live in Cyclops shadows.

I'm sensing some Jean Grey fanboyism from you.

#52 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimatejonathan: I can pretty much assure you that Hurricane is not a fanboy of anything except Storm. (@ageofhurricane:) And he LOVES Bendis, I mean really LOVES Bendis. I think he shrine in his house dedicated to the BMB.

Now me however I am a fan of Jean sans Phoenix. Jean really is the perfect compliment to Scott, whether or not people care for the matching or no. Emma with Scott was giving Cyclops fans a means of vicariously nailing a porn star, that is it. Either she was playing Counselor or Sex Surrogate there was no love there, not real love anyway. I believe attachment or infatuation is a more accurate term.

#53 Posted by UltimateJonathan (107 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimatejonathan: I can pretty much assure you that Hurricane is not a fanboy of anything except Storm.

I was referring to Time.

#54 Posted by Roddy010 (5310 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimatejonathan: I can pretty much assure you that Hurricane is not a fanboy of anything except Storm. (@ageofhurricane:) And he LOVES Bendis, I mean really LOVES Bendis. I think he shrine in his house dedicated to the BMB.

Now me however I am a fan of Jean sans Phoenix. Jean really is the perfect compliment to Scott, whether or not people care for the matching or no. Emma with Scott was giving Cyclops fans a means of vicariously nailing a porn star, that is it. Either she was playing Counselor or Sex Surrogate there was no love there, not real love anyway. I believe attachment or infatuation is a more accurate term.

This made me chuckle.

#55 Edited by DJ1107 (244 posts) - - Show Bio

Because 80% of comic vine users hate Marvel. Either that or you have people like X35 or FadetoBlackbolt who think modern day writers suck & write slander in the disguised as a review & everything in the 80s & 90s were the only good thing.

All while using homophobic slurs or calling someone an idiot who should never have children to people who like said modern day writers.

#56 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7301 posts) - - Show Bio
#57 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7301 posts) - - Show Bio

He just doesn't know how to write a decent comic.

#58 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4722 posts) - - Show Bio

Now me however I am a fan of Jean sans Phoenix. Jean really is the perfect compliment to Scott, whether or not people care for the matching or no. Emma with Scott was giving Cyclops fans a means of vicariously nailing a porn star, that is it. Either she was playing Counselor or Sex Surrogate there was no love there, not real love anyway. I believe attachment or infatuation is a more accurate term.

oh, come on. That's really a pretty abrasive way to rip on Emma fans. And, as a fan of Emma, I personally think it's pretty weak. It's basically like saying there's nothing to like about one of the most distinct characters in X-men without it being part of some sexual fantasy; I don't have sexual fantasies about comic book characters, and I'm sure there's plenty of Emma fans who feel the same.

I think Emma's an interesting and well rounded character, and I think Jean (though I do like her) was generally not as interesting with Cyclops, and Cyclops was not as interesting with her. There's nothing sexual about that.

#59 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

Bendis cares about his story -- not the characters. Established or not, if he wants to get across something, he'll do it and he'll do it at the expense of said characters.

Wolverine being put to sleep by Jean? Jobbed.

Scott was begging Emma to stay with him to suddenly telling her it was best they stay apart in practically the same day. And the most confident woman in Marvel -- seriously, she is -- is suddenly making faces when CHILDREN are crushing on the man she very much knows is sincerely in love with her?

Sure, Bendis. You keep that up.

There's a lot I can say but I've said it enough times. Bendis writing the X-Men is terrible. He chooses one character and panders to them -- in Uncanny it's Cyclops, in All New it's Jean.

Emma is NOT a snippy, vindictive and petty b*tch. I don't think this guy understands how a confident woman behaves like -- he can write women with issues (I loved his ALIAS) but with Emma, he had to strike her down a peg or two. To me, that makes him an @sshole.

#60 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

@dj1107 said:

Because 80% of comic vine users hate Marvel. Either that or you have people like X35 or FadetoBlackbolt who think modern day writers suck & write slander in the disguised as a review & everything in the 80s & 90s were the only good thing.

All while using homophobic slurs or calling someone an idiot who should never have children to people who like said modern day writers.

I won't speak for X35, even though I know that she hasn't either, but I've never used a homophobic slur on this forum or any other. And considering that my favourite run is in the 2000s, and so is X35's, you clearly have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

And you're a coward, the next time you want to write libellous things about people, have the guts to @reply to them. Flagged, by the way.

#61 Edited by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh it's that worthless coward who goes around negging all my reviews and leaving comments full of swear words he instantly deletes so he can't get flagged!

Saying Rick Remender's writing is dreadful and unspired isn't slander whereas saying X35 and FadeToBlackBolt are homophobic is slander.

#62 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

Bendis has quirks and preferences, but the real problem is over-saturation of the Marvel line with his unique voice. You start to see the characters as standard 'Bendis stock' archetypes instead of as unique characters, and this is especially problematic when it doesn't jive with previous characterization for a character—which is often when talking Bendis. And this problem builds on itself the more you notice it, because then you start looking for it.

This is a problem with a number of popular/prolific creators. Joss Whedon has it bad too, and I love Joss.

#63 Posted by Saren (25902 posts) - - Show Bio

Bendis is much better at handling individual characters --- see his work on Daredevil, Ultimate Spider-Man, Alias and Powers (which is technically a team, but it's only two people). When he handles large teams, he tends to build up some characters at the detriment of others.

Moderator
#64 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

Bendis cares about his story -- not the characters. Established or not, if he wants to get across something, he'll do it and he'll do it at the expense of said characters.

Wolverine being put to sleep by Jean? Jobbed.

Scott was begging Emma to stay with him to suddenly telling her it was best they stay apart in practically the same day. And the most confident woman in Marvel -- seriously, she is -- is suddenly making faces when CHILDREN are crushing on the man she very much knows is sincerely in love with her?

Sure, Bendis. You keep that up.

There's a lot I can say but I've said it enough times. Bendis writing the X-Men is terrible. He chooses one character and panders to them -- in Uncanny it's Cyclops, in All New it's Jean.

Emma is NOT a snippy, vindictive and petty b*tch. I don't think this guy understands how a confident woman behaves like -- he can write women with issues (I loved his ALIAS) but with Emma, he had to strike her down a peg or two. To me, that makes him an @sshole.

Exaxtly. only people who don't care about the characters currently written by Bendis do like his stories, and thats about as far as it goes. ultimate spider-man was Good because it was bendis's creation, so he didn't have to butcher other characters

bendis sucks/.

#65 Edited by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio
#66 Edited by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio
#67 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@dj1107 said:

Because 80% of comic vine users hate Marvel. Either that or you have people like X35 or FadetoBlackbolt who think modern day writers suck & write slander in the disguised as a review & everything in the 80s & 90s were the only good thing.

All while using homophobic slurs or calling someone an idiot who should never have children to people who like said modern day writers.

*facepalm*

#68 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimatejonathan: I know I just wanted a way of calling hurricane out. My bad.

@oldnightcrawler: it is what is it is.

@ageofhurricane: Oh c'mon you know you got pics of BMB on your phone, man... It's ok we like you just the way you are, you don't have to hide it.

#70 Posted by DJ1107 (244 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35: does the term "Rick Remmender boy toy" ring any bells?

#71 Edited by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5134 posts) - - Show Bio

Every writer has written some bad titles. Bendis has also written some of the best titles. His Daredevil run is one of the if not the best run on Daredevil. He just killed it with Daredevil End of Days. His All New Xmen has been great. His run on Moon Knight was under appreciated. Then you have Powers, Alias, Ultimate Spiderman, Torso and his initial run on New Avengers. You can hate on him all you want but at the end of the day he's made a lasting impression at Marvel.

#72 Posted by X35 (5981 posts) - - Show Bio

@dj1107 said:

@x35: does the term "Rick Remmender boy toy" ring any bells?

not in the slightest.

#73 Posted by DJ1107 (244 posts) - - Show Bio

@x35: sure it doesn't

#74 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: While I know that we do not see eye to on most things, I will however commend you on having some of the best avatars on CV. Bravo, Burai-san.

@lykopis said:

(any writer) cares about his story -- not the characters. Established or not, if s/he wants to get across something, s/he'll do it and s/he'll do it at the expense of said characters.

Congrats Lykopis. This is the single most important statement I've read in a long while here, the fallout of the image exodus and the subsequent issues following that really impacted industry didn't it? I know Bendis is bad about it, but he however is not alone. This mindset in the industry has spawned legion clearly. What are you thoughts?

#75 Posted by Saren (25902 posts) - - Show Bio

His run on Moon Knight was under appreciated.

With.....good....reason....

Moderator
#76 Posted by Xaos (499 posts) - - Show Bio

Frankly, my opinion of Bendis is quite mixed.

He sucks when he take a title. Really. He doesn't care really of the background of a character. He suck even more when he has to take charge in a title team, like the X-men or the Avenger.

But let him handle a one character title, and he can do really awesome thing. He can even do more if said character has no history.

BUT...

I have catched some of his writing gimmick, and it can be sometimes painful to see them used, overused and used again in different title.

#77 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@dj1107 said:

@theacidskull: well of course you would go running to their defense. Just as long as they say something bad about something you hate you'll defend pieces of crap like them

Not really, i just consider them friends and good people, which they are, so thats what friends do, the defend each other, something i'm sure you don't understand.

also bendis is f*cking terrible so yeah.

#78 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio
#79 Posted by Saren (25902 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

@lone_wolf_and_cub said:

His run on Moon Knight was under appreciated.

With.....good....reason....

what'd he do?

Moon Knight ran around pretending to be Wolverine, Captain America and Spider-Man because he's craaaazzzzyyy

Moderator
#80 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@fadetoblackbolt: While I know that we do not see eye to on most things, I will however commend you on having some of the best avatars on CV. Bravo, Burai-san.

@lykopis said:

(any writer) cares about his story -- not the characters. Established or not, if s/he wants to get across something, s/he'll do it and s/he'll do it at the expense of said characters.

Congrats Lykopis. This is the single most important statement I've read in a long while here, the fallout of the image exodus and the subsequent issues following that really impacted industry didn't it? I know Bendis is bad about it, but he however is not alone. This mindset in the industry has spawned legion clearly. What are you thoughts?

No -- Bendis is not alone and many more writers will continue to join his ranks because what's stopping them? Certainly not us, we're the sods still buying the titles. Although for the first time with me, in over the decade that I have been buying comic books, I am dropping titles.

While I appreciate the impact Bendis has on the industry, I do have an expectation of him (and others like him) because the publishing companies they work for have actively encouraged me to develop loyalty to their characters as they've been presented previously. To have them become something else entirely when a new creative team jumps on board feels like I've been ripped off. It's even worse when well established back stories are completely disregarded because there's a new sheriff in town. Perhaps what these writers should bear in mind is that this is not some new original graphic novel they are marketing in hopes it will be picked up by curious and willing readers -- no -- this is an ongoing, well cultivated product in which they have the extraordinary benefit of having a strong fan base already in place. To go into a title with the attitude that the characters are now puppets to which the writer can insert whatever personality (or history) into (thereby completely disregarding with that large group of fans have come to understand the character as) is insulting to me as a consumer. It's like getting an apple pie when I ordered cake and telling me too bad -- that's all they have. Are their egos so massive that taking continuation into consideration is tantamount to being a slave to another writer's previous work on the book? Can they not work with what they were given without needing to stake their claim onto the characters so obnoxiously?

I do find that writers who genuinely care for the characters (also known as fans of said characters) do understand their duty so to speak to serve their readership and if that means having to adjust the story to fit the characters, then have at it. It's a comic book -- a non-ending saga (hopefully) of mostly the same characters -- being hired to write them is exactly what you should be doing, guiding these characters through their next ordeal - as themselves. You might think my following analogy is bizarre but isn't it jarring if you were to suddenly find Wonder Woman blonde, short and wearing a seventeenth century ball gown in her next issue? Would visual artists be so cavalier in taking such extremes with characters, just because they were assigned to the title? Of course not -- they have their particular styles and yes, you have fans who enjoy some over the others, but to me, it's the same as taking a well-established character and having them behave in a completely different way than was presented before.

I am open for change and I am open for development but do it organically, for crying out loud. A talented writer wouldn't have a difficult time doing so but a lazy, arrogant one would.

#81 Posted by TheAcidSkull (18032 posts) - - Show Bio

@theacidskull said:

@citizenbane said:

@lone_wolf_and_cub said:

His run on Moon Knight was under appreciated.

With.....good....reason....

what'd he do?

Moon Knight ran around pretending to be Wolverine, Captain America and Spider-Man because he's craaaazzzzyyy

I am curious to how the F*ck bendis came to the genius conclusion. -__-

#82 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: A writer just like an artist must take note from their forebears? That is not bizarre at all, in fact for all the attempts at new readership Marvel enacts, one would think making a memorable character resemble itself largely. Of course then there is the subject life, death, "I'm Back"in comics too. I too have been alienated many a time, mostly by writers, rarely by artists.

Important traits to have as a writer.

  1. Do not ignore or disrepect the works of a forebear, no matter how much you might disagree. Only a fan can make that judgement.
  2. Do not retcon, but spin important events
  3. Characters have to act and speak like themselves (ie Wolverine is a Canadian who has lived in America and southeast Asia the majority of his long life. He would not start spouting British slang at any point, regardless of the reader's trendiness )
  4. research the entire catalog prior to making plotlines.
  5. do not rehash or reuse or splice used plot lines (ie the phoenix saga ended in the early 80's we don't need anymore phoenix books)
  6. lastly be willing to commit 5 to 10 years of your life to make tapestry of stories. Slam, Bam thank you comic fan, does not work.
#83 Posted by lykopis (10746 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: A writer just like an artist must take note from their forebears? That is not bizarre at all, in fact for all the attempts at new readership Marvel enacts, one would think making a memorable character resemble itself largely. Of course then there is the subject life, death, "I'm Back"in comics too. I too have been alienated many a time, mostly by writers, rarely by artists.

Important traits to have as a writer.

  1. Do not ignore or disrepect the works of a forebear, no matter how much you might disagree. Only a fan can make that judgement.
  2. Do not retcon, but spin important events
  3. Characters have to act and speak like themselves (ie Wolverine is a Canadian who has lived in America and southeast Asia the majority of his long life. He would not start spouting British slang at any point, regardless of the reader's trendiness )
  4. research the entire catalog prior to making plotlines.
  5. do not rehash or reuse or splice used plot lines (ie the phoenix saga ended in the early 80's we don't need anymore phoenix books)
  6. lastly be willing to commit 5 to 10 years of your life to make tapestry of stories. Slam, Bam thank you comic fan, does not work.

Bravo, sir. That is all we ask.

#84 Edited by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio
#85 Posted by XXkaeselXY (19 posts) - - Show Bio

@time said:

@theacidskull: I tend to agree with you. I think Bendis is doing a good Job so far. Uncanny X-Men is about 6 issues so far and it's pretty good. All New X-Men was pretty good for about 10 issues. Issues 11 and 12 were ok too.

i am glad you are enjoying Them ^__^, but it;s just not enough to convince me :(, age of ultron is still terrible, and he is rarely consistent

You can't lay all of the blame for Age of Ultron at Bendis' feet. That event was written over a year ago and Marvel decided to hold back on it. The event was obviously re-written by committee in order to a) justify its importance in a post-AvX world and to shoe-horn in several changes to the universe (Angela, Galactus, Spidey 2099, etc.).

#86 Edited by UltimateJonathan (107 posts) - - Show Bio

  1. IT IS GOD DAMN SLOOOWW!!! Don't give that " oh well he is just building up" excuse.
  2. His characterizations are a mixed bag. Characters like Beast, Jean, young scott, and Magik are pretty decent, while characters like Emma, Wolverine, and Cap are rather poor.
  3. The concept has worn out its initial appeal thanks to the slow pace.
  4. Why has Bendis made the Avengers into a-holes?
#87 Edited by frogdog (3300 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

@theacidskull said:

@citizenbane said:

@lone_wolf_and_cub said:

His run on Moon Knight was under appreciated.

With.....good....reason....

what'd he do?

Moon Knight ran around pretending to be Wolverine, Captain America and Spider-Man because he's craaaazzzzyyy

I am curious to how the F*ck bendis came to the genius conclusion. -__-

Same conclusion he came with Sentry, if the character has a disorder, dial it up 11 and make them bats*** insane

(---_---)

#88 Posted by oldnightcrawler (4722 posts) - - Show Bio


Important traits to have as a writer.

  1. Do not ignore or disrespect the works of a forebear, no matter how much you might disagree. Only a fan can make that judgement.

I mostly agree with this sentiment, but I think it's probably a mistake to assume that comic book writers aren't themselves fans of the characters. On this forum alone we can see lots of different, contradictory ideas about what the actual nature of several characters is. Interpretation of art, including writing, is largely subjective.

  1. Do not retcon, but spin important events

Though I'm generally not a fan of retcons myself, I don't think using or not using retcons in and of itself makes one not a good writer. I would argue that all of the best X-men writers used at least some.

  1. Characters have to act and speak like themselves (ie Wolverine is a Canadian who has lived in America and southeast Asia the majority of his long life. He would not start spouting British slang at any point, regardless of the reader's trendiness )

Overly stylized dialogue can bring a story down, for sure, but given that most X-men characters started out talking with comic book affectations that don't sound like how any actual person talks, this one really doesn't bother me that much as long as the sentiment of what they're saying or doing still seems in-character.

  1. do not rehash or reuse or splice used plot lines (ie the phoenix saga ended in the early 80's we don't need anymore phoenix books)

Again, I agree with this in theory, but aren't we at a point now when just as many X-men fans were introduced to the characters through the cartoons and movies? It could be argued that almost all of those stories are re-used or spliced plot lines. To be fair, much of storytelling in general is in fact retelling stories, and I don't think that in itself, is a negative thing.

Although, I do certainly agree that I personally would rather never see another version of the Phoenix stories.

  1. lastly be willing to commit 5 to 10 years of your life to make tapestry of stories. Slam, Bam thank you comic fan, does not work.

Well, except that lots of times it does work. Many fine works have been written in far less time than this; Joss Whedon's Astonishing run springs to mind. Claremont certainly didn't take five years before he started writing good X-men stories, and I would even argue that he actually overstayed his usefulness to the characters. This is probably the point you've made here that I would most contend.

One thing I notice is that these "important traits to have as a writer" seem very particular to what you personally admire in X-men writers more than, say, seeing writing as a more general craft with many different purposes. I'm just pointing out that good writing can (and, arguably, should) break all of these rules if it's in the service of the story.

Like, if one's writing a story about what a nice, altruistic character Xavier is, they may well want to disregard how, say, Stan Lee or even Claremont at times wrote the character. To someone who's only familiar with those versions of the character, more contemporary interpretations might seem completely out of character, even if the intent of the writer is simply to show a different side of them for the purpose of making them seem more well rounded or realistic.