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Edited 1 year, 7 months ago

Poll: Grant Morrison's X-Men.... (69 votes)

Good 75%
Bad 22%
#1 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7307 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd imagine only butt-hurt contrariants would vote 'no'.

#2 Edited by Squalleon (5239 posts) - - Show Bio

I have mixed feelings.I do like e for extiction and imperial.But i hate planet x and here comes tomorrow.

#3 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (36229 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought he had some good ideas, Morrison was definitely trying to push the idea of X-Men and the concept of mutants forward. His outline proposal for the series which was printed in E for Extinction really shows the thought he put into it. "Mutants are like the next generation, the rebellious teens representing change, while humanity are the older adults, still clinging on to the past." Or something like that he wrote, I believe. There were some great ideas here, I liked the new costumes, the idea of mutants being their own culture, Xorn, the silent issue was fantastic.

But the execution left me kinda mixed. The plots felt kinda off and weird at points. I loved it when Quitely was on the series, but some of the art here is just terrible. Van Sciver's didn't seem to fit the story, and Igor Kordey's work here remains the worst art I've ever seen in a comic. Didn't care for Morrison's Cyclops either.

#5 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7307 posts) - - Show Bio

Polarizing indeed.

#6 Posted by cattlebattle (13596 posts) - - Show Bio

It definitely brought the X-Men into a new era. John Sublime, Fantomex, Cassandra Nova,finally revealing Wolverines past, pairing Cyclops and Emma. At the same time it kind of felt like it was a "what if" kind of book. It was one of the best runs of the X-Mens entire existence, but just like anything else...its not perfect. I could list several directions he took it that I didn't care for.

Overall though, its good.

#7 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd imagine only butt-hurt contrariants would vote 'no'.

Hurricane, from you I expect better than this. That isn't funny, it's just weak to cast such aspirations on dissenting opinions from your own. You know I despise Morrison and his vapid, trite stories and additionally you also know why. So thanks for that and for your edification it is "contrarians".

#8 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Agreed. Overall good.


• his destruction of Genosha

• insulting portrayal of one of the wealthiest worldwide organizations(the Hellfire Club) as simply a strip club •misinterpretation of Sebastian Shaw as a low level telepath

• the cat-like appearance of Beast

• Magneto reduced to one dimensional villain


• outing the mutant school

• the more realistic costumes

• excellent use of Emma

• break up of Scott and Jean

• best depiction of Xavier in years

• new characters with longevity & bite

Missed oppoortunities

• Jean should have lived & overcome Phoenix, a mutant accomplishing that feat would scare the universe!

• Jean/Logan forming their own branch of school, imagine them raising the worry of mutants going dark and powerful. Plus, Jean moving on would truly test Scott

• Magneto vs Cassandra Nova

• rebuilding Genosha stronger and more resilient

• Other countries responding with mutant programs

#9 Posted by theTimeStreamer (2841 posts) - - Show Bio

hated it. the art didnt help. new x-men was horrible.

#10 Posted by TDK_1997 (15281 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved it.It was his run that got me interested in X-Men and I loved his take.

#11 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5010 posts) - - Show Bio

For me it's more like I love the first half.. or more like the first third.. then it loses me, and by the end I'm not into it at all.

But I love the first few arcs introducing Cassandra Nova and Quire and that stuff, and it's pretty decent up until Xorn takes off his mask, then it just goes downhill really fast.

#12 Posted by poisonfleur (3172 posts) - - Show Bio

A lot of good and a bit of bad too... I don't think he did his research on the x-men before he got involved with Characters like Emma.

Overall, I liked his work.

#13 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought his Enma was fine. He gave her a more British air. And he brought her into the forefront of the X-men universe. Based on where she was at that point in her timeline-- what did Morrison miss?

Bitchy- checked

Cares for students-- checked

Lover is group leader-- checked

Complex-- checked

#14 Posted by Avenger85 (2020 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved Cassandra Nova. I would like her to return for ANXM or UXM. A truly nasty piece of work lol.

#15 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@thetimestreamer: Quitely was terrible. Hell "ole bee stings" was so slow at producing art they had to get that Igor Kordey guy who wasnt much better. I think Frank is actually SLOWER than Joe Mad and that is saying something.

@sinisteri: The accent, I hate that about her. She is from the suburbs of Boston, she is not even remotely British. The american revolution started in Boston yet she is contrary enough to have a faux accent to a place she didn't spend much time at. Makes no damned sense. She didn't really have one before Morrison, it just seems like he is forcibly entering a vapid European influence with no real reason for it.

#16 Posted by Billy Batson (58624 posts) - - Show Bio

It was okay.


#17 Edited by JoeEddie (484 posts) - - Show Bio

Morrision and his changes made me stop reading X-Men as a teen. There have been new characters in different comics that I do not like so I go and look up who created them and they are almost always created by Grant Morrison.

#18 Posted by HAWK2916 (2162 posts) - - Show Bio

Morrison did introduce some new stuff, that was ok. I still struggle to understand the whole Zorn thing

#19 Posted by bigtewell (749 posts) - - Show Bio

i only liked morrisons work on the invisibles other than that his batman was only ok and he changed the x universe a lot in a ton of negitive ways i.e zorn or nightcrawler being a demon

#20 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

I'd imagine only butt-hurt contrariants would vote 'no'.

Hurricane, from you I expect better than this. That isn't funny, it's just weak to cast such aspirations on dissenting opinions from your own. You know I despise Morrison and his vapid, trite stories and additionally you also know why. So thanks for that and for your edification it is "contrarians".

'Trite'? I thought New X-Men would've been the opposite of trite.

#21 Posted by Onemoreposter (4105 posts) - - Show Bio

It was good. Very good in fact. Morrison's New X-Men is single handedly responsible for renewing my interest in the franchise. Probably my favorite single X-Men run of all time and I've read quite a few.

#22 Posted by FadeToBlackBolt (23238 posts) - - Show Bio

You either love it, or you're an idiot. Simple as that.

The best X-Men run ever, and the only one that actually captured what Lee and Kirby had in mind with the franchise.

i only liked morrisons work on the invisibles other than that his batman was only ok and he changed the x universe a lot in a ton of negitive ways i.e zorn or nightcrawler being a demon

Sigh, that wasn't Morrison, that was Austen. Nice to know the people voting know what they're talking about (rolls eyes)

#23 Posted by TheAcidSkull (19437 posts) - - Show Bio

have not read it. but i've read his other stuff, so i'd probably like it. still voted good because Grant is awesome.

#24 Edited by X35 (5982 posts) - - Show Bio

You either love it, or you're an idiot. Simple as that.


Planet X is the only decent and relevant stuff done with Magneto since the 80s, so naturally Marvel instantly retconned it.

#25 Edited by broo1232 (1520 posts) - - Show Bio


#26 Posted by Killemall (18607 posts) - - Show Bio

Its a shame i dont have average on the thing, and i would assume you are talking about his run of New X-men right? I like what he did with Jean, and few confrontation with Emma, one where Emma liternally starts crying because she is stark helpless against Jean TP was pretty awesome.

The story are at times slow, i did not really enjoy Here Comes Tomorrow either. Few bits were very ordinary. Jean was very under-used.

I would personally are it something like 3/ 5.

#27 Edited by Lokheit (489 posts) - - Show Bio

IMHO it was great... to set everything for Whedon run!! He put there all the ingredients and then Josh made the real deal.

As others said the art from most the first half of his run was awful. The worst part was when Emma was going to start treating Scott with his problem and she has a scene telling him "aunt Emma" would help him that was supposed to be her sexiest pose ever and... the result was horrible, I think it was Quitely? I don't remember right now but there were several awful artists. During the end Bachalo and others raised the level, but the start was awful artistically.

That he made Scott and Jean's relationship end was great (Jean was a terrible wife, always limiting Scott's character, even Maddy was better... and btw Jean was the first one to cheat, and physically) but that Scott and Emma started their relationship (my favorite couple ever in comics) was greater! Some of his villians were very important, like Cassandra and Sublime (currently used in the all female X-Men with added lore to his past). One of the awful things was all the weird stuff with Magneto being Xorn, and then Marvel reconecting it to it being Xorn believing he was Magneto... something about the Physical properties of Xorn and how he displayed powers Magneto can't, but then he having Magneto's face instead of his own face didn't make any sense. He set the precedent for Decimation too.

He also made Weapon Plus evolve a huge lot with his introduction of multiple weapons (including Fantomex and the Cuckoos). Thanks to that evolution it has been explored in multiple arcs after that. And I'm not sure but I think it was him who made the Captain America conection to the programm.

So TLDR: Good run to set precedents to what happened after that, specially for Josh Whedon's run which was great. The art was awful at the beginning and there were some bits hardly explicable.

#28 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio

Quitely's a great artist, y'all be trippin. I think his style's not really for everyone, he's got a very distinct aesthetic and overall design sense. I actually find his women very sexy.

#29 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7307 posts) - - Show Bio

Indeed, it's the cinematography of Quietly's art that made Morrison's tenure all the more magical.

#30 Posted by frogdog (3649 posts) - - Show Bio

Morrison's X-men was the last time the franchise was ambitious. After Whedon, it has been in a stagnant stasis of dread.

#31 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: Trite parts you say? How about attaching phoenix to Jean, how about killing her as phoenix (again)?

"You either love it, or you're an idiot. Simple as that.", huh? Sounds more like if you're not a Morrison zealot then you don't fit into the clique. I can live with that.

#32 Posted by McKlayn (1126 posts) - - Show Bio

it was good, it was entertaining but it simply wasn't the ground breaking, end all, better then everything run most people seem to make it out to be

at the same time it wasn't the WORST RUN EVER like a few others seem to say, it was good but not claremont i preferred wheldon's follow up alot more and the art was meh

#33 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio


So I guess all that stuff about mutant culture beyond superheroes, memorable new characters (Cassandra Nova, Quentin Quire, Xorn, Fantomex), Weapon Plus, secondary mutations, the E-Gene, and the Institute for the first time being a legitimate school with a large student body, were all so terribly generic and unoriginal.

That's a weak argument. Try harder.

#34 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio
#35 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by Muadib (6 posts) - - Show Bio

I was a huge fan of Academy X and the New X-Men team. I would love to see more Rockslide, more Anole, more Pixie, and I would love to know if Elixir is ever going to return from Genosha

#37 Posted by John Valentine (16335 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Morrison left a real mark and a garden of ideas/concepts other writers have & are still harvesting.

•Outing and evolving the school

•Mutant class that was more diverse than ever

•Putting Emma in a power position. Claremont had always wanted her to play a larger role in X-men with her love of teaching and pushing students to potential

•exploring this current generation of young mutants trying to take over

•Exploring mutant powers and toying with further natural mutations

Hate it or love it, the fruit born from his ideas took X-men beyond the 90s of Styfe, Sinister, Apocalypse, Mojo, marauders, and stories only centered on Wolvie, jean/Scott bloodline, and Sabertooth. All great, but overplayed and too many visits to the well with nothing new at that point.

#39 Posted by UltimateJonathan (107 posts) - - Show Bio

I liked it but I did not think it was great.

#40 Posted by Deranged Midget (17990 posts) - - Show Bio

Morrison's and Whedon's runs were the last times I was genuinely interested in the X-Universe as a whole. All-New X-Men and Brian Wood's X-Men title are the first to ever draw me back in but that's not saying much.

#41 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@john_valentine: Basically I liked Uncanny V1 1-66 then 94 to 280, X-Factor V1 1-64, New Mutants (Overall pretty much all of them), Wolverine and Kitty Pryde, Wolverine LS (The Miller one), Most of X-Men Unlimited, X-Men V1 (various), All of the original AoA books, X-23, Ultimate X-Men (prior to ultimatum), X-Men 2099, Adventures of Cyke and Jean (both), Uncanny X-Force, X-force S&V LS, The first years of Excalibur (V1), X-Men alpha Flight LS, ANXM and the New Uncanny to name a few but there is far more. Does the John Byrne run in Alpha Flight count? And the Alan Davis run in Captain Britain...

#42 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (36229 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:


So I guess all that stuff about mutant culture beyond superheroes, memorable new characters (Cassandra Nova, Quentin Quire, Xorn, Fantomex), Weapon Plus, secondary mutations, the E-Gene, and the Institute for the first time being a legitimate school with a large student body, were all so terribly generic and unoriginal.

That's a weak argument. Try harder.

What I liked was that the X-Men weren't just a superhero team but a unofficial volunteer mutant emergency and rescue team.

#43 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonny_anonymous: I've always interpreted the X-Men's mission to be that of mission to help humans in trouble to show them that mutants are not the enemy but people who can help them. They lead by example instead of just training mutants like some kind of informal military base. Of course mutants vs rogue mutants to save humans were the best example of this. Like the original X-Factor premise of being mutant "hunters" was a really good idea to serve this purpose. Of course it showed the quality of the characters to object to it and show that the mutants were actually reigning in the mutants was a big human PR boost, they even got a parade. We wont see that type of progress again sadly. Or baseball games.

@veshark: Need the ":" if you want me to see your reply, be respectful and I'll even retort. However I will skip to the chase this time since I don't think we have spoken before. Nice to meet you.

Being a large legitimate school in their world is like painting a target on the back and head of every child in their care. Had Xavier thought about this (ie be written correctly in character) he would NEVER place a student in harm's way. With as many times as that Mansion has blown up I genuinely surprised Graymalkin lane has not been renamed Death Row or been made a disaster zone on federal funding. So dumb ideas are abound here the institute. On a personal note it just sounded better to say Charles Xavier's School for Gifted Youngsters it had a kind of timeless quality and charm that the clinical Xavier Institute could not replicate. But that is off the subject as the Xavier Institute was by another writer not Morrison, ugh Lobdell. Yea THAT one is just as bad. Digressing to remain on topic.

I'm going to skip the characters things, it is just irrelevant based on the principle if Liefeld can create Domino and Deadpool, then the sun can even shine on a dog's ass. Next...

E-Gene is just a trash plot vehicle. Will this actually really ever act out and extinguish humanity? No, no it wouldn't for the same reason I am likely to never read about actual human and mutant social integration in the X-Titles. It wouldn't sell to wipe out humanity. Secondary mutations...aptly named because all they really do is add further fuel that Mutants are too far removed from humans to truly ever co-exist. Poor Hank has suffered for that damned plot device for far too long it just replays the events during his pre-avengers years and his post x-factor years over and over with different characters. They should just rewrite Amazing Adventures #11 and put all the mutants in there. Trash plot vehicles and trash characters are the stock in trade in the early 00's. Sadly most newer readers will not even know I just made a X-Men in-reference there...

No point talking about weapon (insert whatever word here) Morrison joined the ranks of Claremont, Liefeld, Windsor-Smith, Hama and half of the winos in Manhattan trying to explain away more crap about wolverine's past. Wolverine was far more interesting when I didn't know much about him. Then there is Jean, the phoenix and her actually dying this time, bet that made him happy to be one that ACTUALLY killed the real Jean Grey. Technically even Claremont did even do that. Bragging rights at the hash bar to be certain. The point is in some facet or the other it all has been done before (better) and should have never occurred again because it really didn't add any real content. It just comes off like trashing the hotel before you leave or some ego trip to bash the previous writers work.

Lastly for as much as I love Cyclops he dominated that book. It should been more accurately named like New Scott-Summers-(who is out of character)-featuring-some-other-mutants instead of New X-Men. X-Men is a team book not Scott Summers and whatever characters he is trying to quicken at that time book. It always stuck me as stories about other characters that were adapted to be an X-Men plot.

Unrelated Note: I really liked your sketches, Veshark, but if I could offer some advice as a fellow artist, I could not tell your lighting source on your Captain Bucky, but your steve cap had excellent lighting so great job on that. Having a good sense of light in the room (or place) can suspend or release a person's sense of disbelief in a piece of art. Works for me! Anyway, Great job overall, I look forward to your other art postings.

#44 Edited by z1co80 (180 posts) - - Show Bio

I just finished reading his run and it was the first X-Men books i have ever read.

I thought it was absolutely brilliant. I followed it up with Whedon's Astonishing run which was brilliant too.

These have got me interested in picking up other X-Men books

#45 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio


I don't know what that colon means, if you're referring to me tagging you in my reply, I did. If you were offended at my initial snark, I apologize. Nice to meet you too.

I'm just gonna cut right to the chase: whatever your problems with the ideas, the validity and merit of Morrison's concepts are not being brought into question here. It's whether or not they brought something new to the table. Your claim was that Morrison's stories were 'trite', to define: 'overused' and 'lacking originality'. I listed all of the new ideas that he brought to the X-Men mythos, many of which are still in use today and have had an overall lasting affect on the franchise. He really did put the 'New' in 'New X-Men', and if this is your idea of 'trite', I'm genuinely curious as to what you consider to be new and original.

Just for the sake of argument, I'm going to address your opinions with my own feedback. For the issue of the school's public revelation putting the children in danger, bear in mind that this is post-Genosha. As in mutants have just suffered a tremendous blow to their population. And as a result, the school revealing its existence, is the next step to improving mutant-human relations during this time. I.e. not hiding in the shadows, but being open enough to allow the media in and opening X-Corp offices for mutant refugees. This is the whole point of the New X-Men run: progress - and Professor X himself notes that trust is what creates acceptance, and that hiding away was playing by 'human rules', not mutant ones. As for the characters, we're not talking about 'Forearm' here. We're talking about Quentin Quire and Fantomex, characters that you still see frequenting the X-franchise today and whom many readers do recognize. When was the last time a memorable X-character was created in a run? Anyone still remember Armor? How about Ord of the Breakworld?

If your complaint about the E-Gene is because we never see mutants becoming the dominant species (an unrealistic wish, on that note), put the blame on Bendis - who instituted House of M, thereby eliminating Morrison's idea. Within the context of New X-Men itself, the E-Gene does serve its purpose, being the whole reason for the Genoshan genocide as well as pushing the school to open their doors and embrace mutant culture (see the Testament issue). Secondary mutations give an added explanation to Beast's condition and for other mutants to develop new powers, not to mention giving us Emma Frost's iconic diamond skin. As for 'secondary mutations causing the mutant-human rift to be further apart', you're missing the whole point of Morrison's run. His run was filled with grotesque mutants (see: Special Class), but that was the lesson he was trying to illustrate: that no matter how different, peaceful coexistence was an option beyond the superficial physical changes.

As for Weapon Plus, Wolverine's past was just a small fragment of the idea that Morrison expanded upon, an entire program developed to creating super-soldiers. He also tied Captain America to the concept, and both Fantomex and the Stepford Cuckoos are a result of it. It wasn't a simple retelling, he was building on Wolverine's origin and changing it into something bigger. I don't understand what your beef with Morrison having Phoenix Jean die is. Is it because the idea has been used before? Or is it because you see it as some personal petty move on Morrison's part? I view it as being Scott moving on from the old to the new (his relationship with Emma), a running theme in the entire run.

And we can't have been reading the same run. You're telling me that Cyclops dominated the book? The only arc where he had the most page-time was the Weapon Plus arc, perhaps. If you want a main character for the run, try Professor X or Jean, both of whom have far more appearances than Cyclops. Scott was in it as much as Hank or Logan, and the story did feel like a team book.

You have also yet to address your feelings regarding the run exploring 'mutant culture'. One of the most fascinating aspects I thought was of Morrison going beyond 'superheroes' and truly exploring the idea of mutants as a subculture. Cyclops said that they were dressed as heroes because Professor X thought humans would fear them less if they looked like a concept they understood. There are references to mutant bands, mutant fashion designers, mutant drugs; Jean's speech especially makes note that they are offering the world not just superheroes, but also mutant artists and thinkers. Mutants are considered to be the 'cool minority', with even ordinary teenagers being attracted to them. I thought it was a great, original way, to expand the franchise by looking at the entire concept of 'mutants' on the whole, not just heroes vs villains.

If I can be frank, if this is your argument as to why you consider Morrison's run 'trite', most of your complaints come across as surface-deep. Any attempts to expand upon ideas in the mythos you seem to consider 'unoriginal', and any new ideas are just readily dismissed without even considering their context.

As for my drawings, I appreciate you looking into them, and the advice as well. I'll keep the lighting in mind for my next posting.

#46 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: Oh that's quite alright, Veshark. Contiuning, your reply to me, I never saw it. I can only assume the syntax was wrong for the system to send me a notification. I did note that a colon was missing or perhaps it was just a hiccup in the system itself. Either way had not another person replied to me I would have never been able to retort.

So let's begin,I notice that you seem to keep seeing only the trite statement. That was only part of my initial retort to Hurricane.

So Vapid and Trite if you please veshark. Some things were trite like killing Jean as it is unoriginal, and unimaginative. Some things were vapid as in unstimulating and tasteless such as trash plot lines and characters. Those are just the base examples.

To start, I hold my stance on the characters, so let's move on to mutant relations. You realize that apparently NO ONE knew chuck was doing that. He unilaterally decided to out the school. This was a poor editorial decision as in the "in-universe" relations were NOT stable enough to merit putting an address to mindless hate crimes. Chuck, of all people, would have known this and they deployed it anyway because real world office politics not in-universe ideas. His speech was baseless justification and would NEVER go over in real world politics. The only thing that would have happened would suicide zealots blowing themselves up at gate or something equally horrific.

Retconning Morrison is not a Bendis exclusive and mutant culture? That is cool and everything but sensationalism like it was posed seemed to create more segregation. Mutants are not the punk movement. They don't need to fit into Grant's little counter culture microcosm. They need to be accepted by humanity as their own not an aberration or unintended affront to natural genetics. I personally remember the Xavier dream to be acceptance and integration.

I don't really care too much the physical appearance thing, grotesque, beautiful, homely I don't really care much in any direction. The point that I'm trying to make by opening the doors to constant mutation is a pandora's box it enables future writers to create horrific ends to characters that they don't necessarily like. Real world office politics will use that for their own ends thus it is a bad idea. Bands, fashion designers, and drugs tailored to Mutants? What's wrong with warren doing rainbows of coke of an exotic hookers back? Is he too good for blow? Heroin doesn't do it for him? What if wolvie likes him some 420? I guess Warpath can't listen to Porno For Pyros anymore huh? Not on the approved mutant listening playlist. All of that is largely irrelevant, their are real world equivalents to actual music that would solidify its ability to suspend my disbelief and not just be niche and against the actual goal. I would rather see Dazzler make a comeback into mainstream pop as a storyline than a vapid mutant band playing for its own kind only. It just screams mutants only club. BTW as far as the "cool minority" goes it was a trend during the books, what happens to trends when they fall from favor with mindless masses? Oh yea they become hated. They really need that, to be out of vogue.

By the Scott thing I was largely referring to its still in continuity legacy on the "X" universe as most of the (lasting) changes all seem to hang around Scott neck like a pair of white latex boots. Oh wait. The Captain America thing, sigh, tying wolverine and cap together doesnt really do much for either character besides screwing up classic continuity even worse that some other writers I could mention over the past few years...digressing. Morrison offered me nothing new and/or interesting. Thus his work was trite and vapid.

Unrelated note: I look forward to your new pics! oh, some times when I have a difficult or multi directional lighting source to remind me I draw (a) tiny circle(s) where the source direction is. I hope that helps you.

#47 Posted by Veshark (9058 posts) - - Show Bio


Yeah, the site's notifications system is new and still needs some work. I've been missing notifs or getting late ones all week. Give it time to work out the kinks.

Now, I just want to note that the only issue I had with your comment to Hurricane was your defining of Morrison's stories as 'trite', and you later confirmed that your comment did apply to New X-Men. It came across as the strangest adjective to describe his run, considering how innovative and how many new ideas the actual run itself had. I took no issue with 'vapid' because it not 'offering any stimulation or challenge' seemed more like an issue of personal opinion than anything. I'm not clinging to the 'trite' aspect of your statement solely to be argumentative, I'm saying I feel like it's a genuinely inaccurate label.

But for the sake of argument, I did address your points with my own responses. These were unrelated to your defining of the run as 'trite', but more of general discussion and - as I put it - my own feedback. Moving on to mutant relations, my point was that Xavier himself realized that it was no longer the right time to hide in the shadows post-Genosha, but to open their doors. This works because 1) by revealing their public existence, they have created trust with ordinary humans via transparency, as seen in the issue where the media visits the school and 2) they have made themselves an open school to accept all mutants who are probably terrified as a result of the Genoshan genocide. And to my knowledge, the outing created no more trouble save for some protestors. You cannot entirely apply 'real-world politics' to a fictional universe. Now, I just want to note that this is how I see it. You might still disagree, but bear in mind that the only reason why I brought it up in the first place was not so much "This is a great and flawless story idea!" but more of "This is a new idea that Morrison brought to the table, so why 'trite'?"

I'm saying that the E-Gene did serve a purpose, and if your issue with it is that we never see mutants become the dominant basis, the blame would be better placed on House of M. That's it. As for mutant culture, to use a metaphor Morrison himself came up with, mutants represent the youth seeking change while humanity represents the adult sticking to the status quo and the familiar. And that is what mutants are a symbol of, that no matter how different you are, peaceful coexistence is still possible because at the end - both humans and mutants are from the same evolutionary tree. As Jean Grey puts it, "Humans vs mutants is like a thumb fighting a finger'. And mutants being their own subculture doesn't necessarily mean that they're divorced from mainstream society, or even that they can't be integrated. We see humans participating in the mutant subculture throughout the run (humans listening to mutant bands and wearing mutant fashion), and this fits with the running theme of assimilation. To use a real-life example, back in the 70s, hip-hop was still a predominantly black and urban-oriented genre. But its increasing popularity in the 80s to 90s led to its acceptance, and now we have Rap Grammys and people of all colors and nations sharing their common love of it. Even in the real-world, each subculture is allowed to grow on their own, but at the end of the day, they're still part of the larger social organism.

Your initial comment about secondary mutations seemed to imply that your issue with it was that continuous mutation would lead to a further rift between humans and mutants. But now your complaint is that it leads future writers to do bad things to characters they don't like? I'm sorry, but that complaint seems petty and a little out-there, how are these franchises ever going to grow or innovate if they're trapped with that sort of fearful mindset? I don't quite understand your rambling rant about mutants, but if I'm grasping the gist of it, refer to the above. Subcultures are allowed to blossom on their own, but they can still function within a larger society. And within the run, mutants were not a commercial 'trend' or 'fad', they were a booming society that were increasing in numbers and had the eye of pop culture. Your comment that their popularity will only lead to downfall seems to miss the entire point about the idea - not just that mutants are 'the current cool', but that Morrison's run really tried to explore other aspects of mutantdom beyond tights and battles. That superheroes were only a small aspect of the mutant concept, and that it was applicable in other circles.

I don't understand your comment about Scott at all, it has no relation to your earlier claim that he - and I quote - 'dominated the book'. That just seems to be a baseless claim. As for linking Cap and Wolverine, again, those two heroes were only a small focus of the Weapon Plus idea, and it did spawn several memorable characters as well as bringing a deeper layer to the original idea. Again, you seem very dismissive of any new concepts that Morrison tried to do in this run. Now, if you would have said that you found that these changes didn't agree with you, I wouldn't give two hoots because you're entitled to your opinion and inclinations. But to say that his storyline and ideas brought nothing new to the table is a negligent assertion.

Mm, thanks for the tip, I'll keep that one in mind. I'm actually working on a comic page of Cap vs. Wolverine on a rooftop (which features a sun), so that'll come in useful.

#48 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark: Rambling is a harsh term, Veshark. Perhaps I do have too much information for my fingers to adequately display in text, however I stand by both statements in and out of universe for secondary mutations and Scott. Sorry I didn't redress the entire statement(s) to be inclusive to both new and old information. That much was my bad.

However; elements in Morrison's run are trite and vapid. I stand by that. I use both words at differing points in his run and they are accurate in describing the run as a whole. I think however we are inadvertently coming to a point of a political argument on the best course of action for the future of humans and mutants, to which I am not going to budge. It was folly for Xavier to that and it hurt the long term in universe and overall story line to enact it, but most of it has been retconned out, so perhaps

Also I sure that there are better examples to use to convince me than the urban hip hop movement metaphors for rebelling against adults by young people. That doesn't do it for me as these people are not joined by culture nor location or for the most part upbringing long enough to actually form a real viable (sub)culture. Don't buy that at all. Tights and battles were a part to be sure but all that mutants bands, fashion, chewing gum is valueless fluff.

Anyway let's change gears for a minute. What is your experience in reading comics? What I mean by that is what elements are necessary for you to enjoy a comic (any comic)?

Note: Awesome! Keep me in the loop especially should you attempt any lantern pics.

#49 Edited by inferiorego (28576 posts) - - Show Bio

It is by far my favorite X-Men story. It's such a departure from the regular book, which at that time had become very stale and boring.

#50 Posted by ShadowSwordmaster (17145 posts) - - Show Bio

I Enjoyed it , it is a different x men story that is for sure.