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#51 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5004 posts) - - Show Bio

Because she told them to stay behind?

more because they didn't, and because she refused to see their side of it. Like I said, I don't think they were right, I just think that, as her long-time trusted teammates, she would at least hear them out.

She became another Scott in the previous run, yes. But here she maintains integrity and respect at all fronts. Who are Rachel, Kitty and Colossus that she should worry so about her own fidelity to mutantkind and vice versa ?

the X-men? her family? they're at least a few things that should matter to her in this. And, as I've said, they're at least a big part of why she's recognized as the leader at all; shouldn't that be worth something?

Le nobodies. People change, things change.

exactly, so why is it you think Storm's authority is somehow absolute and beyond question? it's absurd.

@adamtrmm said:

So do you think Cyclops is a self appointed leader of hypocrites?

From a certain perspective, yeah, I guess I do. Maybe not so much in the past, but certainly at least somewhat now.

Well, things have changed and leadership is not something to be taken for granted now. Once it was Cyclops who appointed the leaders. Now, it is a subject to be discussed, that's my guess. Storm have taken the leadership by her nature, without actually asking. It's still unclear what is going on between the girls, but at least this way of questioning is much more interesting than military-like hierarchy (that isn't even defined!) and subordination Storm demands.

pretty much, yeah.

#52 Edited by adamTRMM (2057 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler:

I don't see what you mean. The Uncanny team, stands for what they believe and by now, they are proven being right on panel (about the mutant persecution part), while the JGS are without a question absolute hypocrites. They all took for granted that mutants are back and nobody acknowledges Cyclops' direct role in this and what he had to sacrifice. It's actually really odd nobody had ever mentioned it or at least discussed about this stuff.

@ageofhurricane:

Exactly, so why are they forbidden to question her (authority?) if they disagree?

#53 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5004 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

@oldnightcrawler:

I don't see what you mean. The Uncanny team, stands for what they believe and by now, they are proven being right on panel (about the mutant persecution part), while the JGS are without a question absolute hypocrites. They all took for granted that mutants are back and nobody acknowledges Cyclops' direct role in this and what he had to sacrifice. It's actually really odd nobody had ever mentioned it or at least discussed about this stuff.

oh, don't get me wrong, I do totally agree with what Cyclops' X-men are doing. (and I'm really enjoying the book).

I just meant that Cyclops has appointed himself leader of his team, despite almost all of the other X-men disagreeing with him, and that, individually, it's not a stretch to see him, Emma, and Magneto as hypocrites in a more general sense.

I'm not going to get into the whole was Cyclops right? thing, because, personally, I don't think he was right, even though I do agree with the direction he's taking now. I think presently both schools have their valid points, even if they don't see eye to eye, and I think that's more interesting anyway. They both perform important aspects of the X-men's role.

#54 Edited by adamTRMM (2057 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

oh, don't get me wrong, I do totally agree with what Cyclops' X-men are doing. (and I'm really enjoying the book).

Yes! I am really glad mutants finally get some support, especially in a world where a Dreaming Celestial stands as symbol of what kind of mysteries this universe has and the X-Men were as much heroes as FF or Avengers, it completely made no sense there were no humans that actually acknowledged them as heroes.


I just meant that Cyclops has appointed himself leader of his team, despite almost all of the other X-men disagreeing with him, and that, individually, it's not a stretch to see him, Emma, and Magneto as hypocrites in a more general sense.

You're talking about pre-AVX? If so, I don't really recall his authority have been ever questioned before Schism. And for now, there are some personal issues in his team, but I don't really see any hypocrisy. I mean, since they've become X-Men none of them did anything hypocritical IIRC.

I'm not going to get into the whole was Cyclops right? thing, because, personally, I don't think he was right, even though I do agree with the direction he's taking now. I think presently both schools have their valid points, even if they don't see eye to eye, and I think that's more interesting anyway. They both perform important aspects of the X-men's role.

And I didn't try to start one, I was just saying that they accepted Cyclops as a "villain" too easy, weren't they like family? I mean, they really all unanimously think he is wrong? Just like that? Black and white? And what do students think of all this?

#55 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5004 posts) - - Show Bio

@adamtrmm said:

I was just saying that they accepted Cyclops as a "villain" too easy, weren't they like family? I mean, they really all unanimously think he is wrong? Just like that? Black and white? And what do students think of all this?

I think it's probably more of a mix. This is conjecture, but it seems the decision to no longer follow Cyclops was as much of a disappointment to the other X-men as anything else. Given a lot of his actions leading up to Schism, it seemed that most of them all had slightly different reasons for no longer following him, that sort of culminated in a general consensus following AvsX.

I don't know that that means that they no longer think of him as family. If anything, I feel like that's a big part of their disappointment. Maybe they could have done more for him, maybe they could still take him back now, but I can still totally see why they can't follow him.

But now that he's not the sole leader of the X-men, and not responsible for all of them, he's more free to follow his own path, to define his own vision. Personally, I feel he's become far more interesting again in this new role.

#56 Posted by ItsDaveyJ (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane: Wow what is with the hostility? Storm is my favorite comic book character of all time. We're allowed to disagree and like or dislike how she is written by different authors. Don't come at me in an accusatory manner because we disagree on a subject. You're only adding to the negative stereotype of Storm fans being unreasonable and childish on this website.

Anyways, yes Wood utilizes Storm the most. But just because he gives her the most face time and the most involvement in the stories he tells doesn't mean I have to like HOW he writes her. If you like how he writes her then fine. That is your right. But it is my right to say that I don't like how he writes her. My entire point is that this version of Storm that Wood has created has been tougher to the point of causing issues with her teammates. Under the pen of other writers who might bring out her softer side a bit more, it is unlikely that they would generate such an abrasive conflict between Kitty and Storm.

And I consider "current portrayals" to be anything recent... maybe since Schism or something. Maybe you disagree that "current" means something more recent than that... but such is the problem with using a subjective term like current and not actual dates.

And no, I feel that Wood is the one writing Storm with a personality of a brick wall. He is facing the same issues many writers have faced when writing characters like Wonder Woman, Lara Croft, someone like Lightning from Final Fantasy, etc. Wonder Woman and Lara Croft have been successfully written before, but many writers focus too much on their strength to the point of making them bland. And I feel like Wood is one of those writers. You disagree? Fine. But don't belittle my opinion for disagreeing.

#57 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane said:

Because she told them to stay behind?

more because they didn't, and because she refused to see their side of it. Like I said, I don't think they were right, I just think that, as her long-time trusted teammates, she would at least hear them out.

She became another Scott in the previous run, yes. But here she maintains integrity and respect at all fronts. Who are Rachel, Kitty and Colossus that she should worry so about her own fidelity to mutantkind and vice versa ?

the X-men? her family? they're at least a few things that should matter to her in this. And, as I've said, they're at least a big part of why she's recognized as the leader at all; shouldn't that be worth something?

Le nobodies. People change, things change.

exactly, so why is it you think Storm's authority is somehow absolute and beyond question? it's absurd.

@adamtrmm said:

So do you think Cyclops is a self appointed leader of hypocrites?

From a certain perspective, yeah, I guess I do. Maybe not so much in the past, but certainly at least somewhat now.

Well, things have changed and leadership is not something to be taken for granted now. Once it was Cyclops who appointed the leaders. Now, it is a subject to be discussed, that's my guess. Storm have taken the leadership by her nature, without actually asking. It's still unclear what is going on between the girls, but at least this way of questioning is much more interesting than military-like hierarchy (that isn't even defined!) and subordination Storm demands.

pretty much, yeah.

Respect is reciprocal. If they disobeyed instructions, that's not a reason for Storm to experience in depth introspection. How's she supposed to hear their side of the story if a) they're being irrationally stubborn and aren't even attempting to respectfully explain themselves and b) they don't try to see hers ? It's not even about them this time around. The infrastructure of the time-space continuum as are the lives of a few current X-Men, are at stake here--she's a leader, rationalizing personal disputes comes later.

Lol. How those three a big part of her recognition ? She's recognized by her personal accomplishments to and for the X-Men as well as mutant kind. Whether or not they've been with her on the journey is irrelevant, she's the one who had the balls to step up when needed, not them. They are three out of the many people Ororo has lead and saved.

I never said such, unless you can quote me. It's the way in which the duo went about their angst. Irresponsible.

Good writing =/= good debates, though.

#58 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

@itsdaveyj said:

@ageofhurricane:

Wow what is with the hostility? Storm is my favorite comic book character of all time. We're allowed to disagree and like or dislike how she is written by different authors. Don't come at me in an accusatory manner because we disagree on a subject. You're only adding to the negative stereotype of Storm fans being unreasonable and childish on this website.

Anyways, yes Wood utilizes Storm the most. But just because he gives her the most face time and the most involvement in the stories he tells doesn't mean I have to like HOW he writes her. If you like how he writes her then fine. That is your right. But it is my right to say that I don't like how he writes her. My entire point is that this version of Storm that Wood has created has been tougher to the point of causing issues with her teammates. Under the pen of other writers who might bring out her softer side a bit more, it is unlikely that they would generate such an abrasive conflict between Kitty and Storm.

And I consider "current portrayals" to be anything recent... maybe since Schism or something. Maybe you disagree that "current" means something more recent than that... but such is the problem with using a subjective term like current and not actual dates.

And no, I feel that Wood is the one writing Storm with a personality of a brick wall. He is facing the same issues many writers have faced when writing characters like Wonder Woman, Lara Croft, someone like Lightning from Final Fantasy, etc. Wonder Woman and Lara Croft have been successfully written before, but many writers focus too much on their strength to the point of making them bland. And I feel like Wood is one of those writers. You disagree? Fine. But don't belittle my opinion for disagreeing.

Negative stereotypes my arse, it's people like you who enforce them by bringing them up as some sort of red wild card in the first place. Please. I am not dictating your opinion or beliefs nor i am i forcing you into psychological internalization, it is a logical debate. If that's too much for you, well...

Apologies for not decorating that previous paragraph of mine with "XD"'s, "lols" "haha"'s and the like, in an attempt to lighten the mood. I'm asserting my opinion with basis, not my fault you're failing to do the same. Didn't know you had the ability to infer actual emotion from black letters on a white panel, neat trick, though.

More to the topic instead of personal digression, i really am trying to see things from your perspective, but you're not giving much to work with. Lots of instances of your definition of "bland strong woman" writing, but no solid and on-page examples. No context. Your point, lacks water. Complaints for the sake of complaining, tbh.

Like, you know, i just mentioned what was going on through her personal life. Are you seriously expecting her to be all motherly and nurturing in all this ? Like, really ? Lol, the conflict isn't even with Kitty and in their exchange, she came off as poised and composed in the situation, she didn't harshly snap at her or strongly talk back...>>

No, srsly, though, i really would like to see these writers you speak of. My definition of "recent" is irrelevant as is the use of dates (what?)--since Schism, in fact, since that's your own, who are these writers that may have written a better Storm than Wood ? Do tell.

#59 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5004 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not even about them this time around. The infrastructure of the time-space continuum as are the lives of a few current X-Men, are at stake here--she's a leader, rationalizing personal disputes comes later.

I don't even disagree with this, I just don't get where this Storm's way or the highway attitude is coming from.

Lol. How those three a big part of her recognition ? She's recognized by her personal accomplishments to and for the X-Men as well as mutant kind. Whether or not they've been with her on the journey is irrelevant, she's the one who had the balls to step up when needed, not them. They are three out of the many people Ororo has lead and saved.

Yeah, she's recognized for being a great leader of the X-men, by the X-men. If the X-men don't follow her, she's not the leader of anything. I don't know how many different ways I can say this. If they don't follow her, she's not leading them; they are where her authority comes from.

#60 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

@ageofhurricane said:

It's not even about them this time around. The infrastructure of the time-space continuum as are the lives of a few current X-Men, are at stake here--she's a leader, rationalizing personal disputes comes later.

I don't even disagree with this, I just don't get where this Storm's way or the highway attitude is coming from.

Lol. How those three a big part of her recognition ? She's recognized by her personal accomplishments to and for the X-Men as well as mutant kind. Whether or not they've been with her on the journey is irrelevant, she's the one who had the balls to step up when needed, not them. They are three out of the many people Ororo has lead and saved.

Yeah, she's recognized for being a great leader of the X-men, by the X-men. If the X-men don't follow her, she's not the leader of anything. I don't know how many different ways I can say this. If they don't follow her, she's not leading them; they are where her authority comes from.

That wasn't the indication. Storm had a problem with Cyclops' discreet preemptive methods in SC, she, and others, waited until after SC to discuss it because bigger things were at stake. Bigger things are at stake as of now, she does not (and cannot) need to waste her time and effort on trying to coerce them back within the middle of a time-debacle. They've made their choices, it's not a priority. It was a simple instruction.

Three people have had a falling out with her for one reason or the other. Three people do not constitute the X-Men. They are three out of many.

#61 Posted by darthphoenix (965 posts) - - Show Bio

I just don't get where this Storm's way or the highway attitude is coming from

-love this

#62 Posted by ItsDaveyJ (196 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane: Sorry but I make a rule of not debating people who actually lack basic debating skills.

You are saying we are having a logical debate and yet you have no idea of what that entails. If we were truly having a logical debate we would be focusing on the issues and looking at them objectively without giving emotional responses. You fail to do that. Hence the reason why I am not going to get into this with you... you can't debate against a person's emotion. Out of a basic desire to see everyone do well in life, I would truly recommend you to look at how you react to people having a disagreement with you. This sort of emotional backlash really won't help you in life. Anyways, I'm done. Call it a cop out or whatever you want... but I don't have the time or the energy to get into "debates" with people who do more insulting than actual debating.

#63 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

@itsdaveyj: Lol. Well if the maintenance of integrity and being honest with one's self and others connotes some sort of lacking in the sugar-coating department, then so be it.

Apologies for hurting your feelings.

Le peace.

#64 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5004 posts) - - Show Bio

@ageofhurricane: alright, well it seems like you're arguing about something I'm not, and vice versa, so whatever.

#65 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

*shrugs*

#66 Posted by darthphoenix (965 posts) - - Show Bio

To World Peace!

#67 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7303 posts) - - Show Bio

Succumb to the nostalgia.

JR JR