• 98 results
  • 1
  • 2
#51 Posted by lykopis (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@lykopis: Hey lyko long time no see! Finding people on the new CV is damn annoying to say the least.

Hey you! Yeah, the new set up is still driving me crazy. :/

#52 Edited by CTG (243 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@ctg said:

@lykopis: No, you said Cyclops wanted to keep mutants separate. That image does not illustrate that.

However, the below images fully support what I said - that Cyclops still supports Xavier's dream, but he's aware that the world still hates mutants and someone needs to protect them until the dream is fulfilled.

Scott is all about mutants now -- the preservation of his "people". My image supplied illustrates that quite clearly.

As for that note? What does that prove? That he is doing what is "necessary" and isn't being the better man. What does that prove to support your idea on this?

Frankly, I am not going to debate this with you. This is clearly going to disintegrate into subjective semantics and I can't be bothered because no offense, I am tired of it. Most X-Men fans are.

Scott is not pursuing Xavier's dream - not in the way that Xavier taught him to -- so again, like I said, my opinion.

Have you been reading anything I said? At all?

I never once said he was pursuing his dream. Not even once. I said that he supports it, but until it's achieved he's protecting mutants. That's not semantics - that's simply reading comprehension.

And check out the bottom panels on the first page - those prove pretty much everything I've been saying. Again not semantics. Semantics has nothing to do w/ it. We're being told verbatim one thing and your saying it's another.

People, it's completely possible that no one is the bad guy in this. Not Cyclops. Not Wolverine. Not even Havok. They all have varying opinions that can be supported. Contrary to what a lot of you seem to believe, different opinions doesn't mean that one of the characters have to be wrong.

#53 Edited by lykopis (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg:

Duly noted -- reading comprehension. ;)

#54 Posted by Blood1991 (8115 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

@blood1991 said:

Alright this is all alot to take in, but I hated the speech. Xaver's dream was about acceptance, NOT assimilation. Standing as equals and being respected not throwing away their identity and history. I also agree that Remender acted like a complete ass in his comments and honestly doesn't understand one of the core messages behind the X-Men. The X-Men's history has been widely developed by mirroring the struggles of minorities in the United States. Hell Xavier and Erik are based off of Martian Luther King Jr. and Malcom X.

Hello, sorry, small nitpick, Xavier and Magneto weren't actually based off Martin Luther Junior and Malcolm X, their development later on was, but it was after the fact of their creation. Sort of irrelevant but I notice this is one of those things that tends to carry through. I like your post too.

Really? I could have sworn I read that in an article, but thanks for clearing that up.

#55 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg said:

Well it took five issues, but they finally addressed the point of the book and hit the nail right on the head. While I support Cyclops' revolution and feel it's a necessary movement to have in the current MU climate, as a minority I've held Alex's view on things for a long time - that labels themselves keep us from seeing each other as equals.

I tempted not to post the pages as they're worth the $3.99 themselves, but hopefully this'll spark some good discussion:

As a sidenote, this was probably the best issue of UA overall, so it's definitely worth picking up. Anytime a mutant shuts down Cap it's a good read lol - but seriously, there are some great moments in this issue. Just get it.

I've been enjoying this series overall (though it has been a bit slow), but yeah, this is more the issue I've been waiting for.

I may not be the biggest Havoc fan, but this issue made him seem distinct enough to validate him leading the team. And it was nice to have an issue where the characters actually feel like a team; sort of reminded me of the early days of Excaliber.

#56 Edited by SC (14403 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah there have been quite a few articles that have made that claim, but none have ever provided a good source, Stan Lee himself is uncharacteristically ambiguous about the creation process and usually talks more about that parallel being added to the characters after their creation. Other writers including Chris Claremont did more work in actually adding that extra layer comparison as well. I use to think this was the case as well until I did some digging, its pretty interesting actually (and kind of funny, because as much as I love and appreciate Stan Lee he was really more of a great creator, sales man and promoter than writer and just a lot of his ideas were funny/funky not that deep until other people refined/worked on) - there are some good interviews/articles floating around. We do know that as it stands today Magneto and Xavier are pretty much built of both real life gentleman's legacies owing much development to on top.

Oh and side note, bad guy is definitely X-Men Editorial of 9 to 5 years ago/past. They know it too its why they are slowly retconning everything/changing things to mirror Pre M-Day and spreading focus to more characters. Bwahaha.

Moderator
#57 Edited by Lvenger (23089 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: It is rather confusing isn't it? Not being able to see who's online is something I haven't gotten used to. It's like seeing all the people outside a locked room before being put in said room :P

@ctg said:

@lvenger: The images I posted. ^^^

Though I will agree that they shouldn't have used the word "elite". It goes against everything else he's done UXM - but I'm not gonna throw it all away due to one word. Pages and pages that show otherwise trump that.

Other pages like his confrontation with Captain America and the Avengers still show him to be a tad up himself and the righteousness of what he's doing.

#58 Posted by xeon1cs (1483 posts) - - Show Bio

"Genefreak" is a lot catchier, but ok, all mutants are now Alex

"My name is Scott Summers. You may know me by my Alex name, Cyclops. Come with me, join my team of Alex's. We are the aleX-Men."

#59 Posted by TDK_1997 (15764 posts) - - Show Bio

This was indeed the best issue so far from Uncanny Avengers but it was still not that good.Why the hell should we call all mutants now Alex.

#60 Posted by GonnaRain (758 posts) - - Show Bio

@xeon1cs said:

@citizenbane said:

"Genefreak" is a lot catchier, but ok, all mutants are now Alex

"My name is Scott Summers. You may know me by my Alex name, Cyclops. Come with me, join my team of Alex's. We are the aleX-Men."

HAHAHA. You're awesome.

It was meh for me, he had good intentions, but the overall speech didn't really do it for me.

#61 Posted by chasereis (803 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: You are my sole reason for reading this thread. Bravo.

#62 Posted by akbogert (3285 posts) - - Show Bio

This is an excellent article on the topic. Well worth the read.

This was insanely worth reading.

I actually laughed out loud at Remender's initial tweet. I think the thing that salvages it a bit -- if not his other stuff -- is that I read it at that point as a way of sticking it to racists. I don't think he understood that his own message would be received as privileged or problematic, and so preemptively dismissed backlash as evidence of latent racism. It's deeply, painfully ironic in retrospect, but contextually I can understand why a guy who thought he was saying something genuinely pro-social would be very unwilling to negotiate or discuss with people who were upset with him. After spending a month or so being told vaguely that Remender had made an a$$ of himself, I'm pleased to have actually been sent over here to see what it was that people had gotten their hackles up over. I nodded in agreement with Havok's speech (the straight white male that I am), and have subsequently been educated to the point where I understand why that was precisely the wrong reaction to have. If nothing else we should praise this for having been a learning exercise in minority politics -- and moreover, be glad that the backlash now affords an opportunity for this "erasing the lines" mentality to be addressed in subsequent UA issues. Granted, no guarantees it will adequately be addressed, but at least it's out in the open and a possibility.

#63 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@ellie_knightfall said:

This is an excellent article on the topic. Well worth the read.

I don't think he understood that his own message would be received as privileged or problematic, and so preemptively dismissed backlash as evidence of latent racism. It's deeply, painfully ironic in retrospect, but contextually I can understand why a guy who thought he was saying something genuinely pro-social would be very unwilling to negotiate or discuss with people who were upset with him. After spending a month or so being told vaguely that Remender had made an a$$ of himself, I'm pleased to have actually been sent over here to see what it was that people had gotten their hackles up over. I nodded in agreement with Havok's speech (the straight white male that I am), and have subsequently been educated to the point where I understand why that was precisely the wrong reaction to have. If nothing else we should praise this for having been a learning exercise in minority politics -- and moreover, be glad that the backlash now affords an opportunity for this "erasing the lines" mentality to be addressed in subsequent UA issues. Granted, no guarantees it will adequately be addressed, but at least it's out in the open and a possibility.

Yeah, I think I only took from that speech what (I assume) Remender intended, and personally didn't really realize the problematic issues raised by the phrasing. I really don't think it was his intention to have Havoc come off as "self-loathing", but now that the speech has been made, I do think it would be a real waste to not have someone call Havoc on this in the story. It may not have been the jar of worms they meant to open, but now that it is, I think it should definitely be explored.

I'd hate to see all the things I'm enjoying about this book brought down by not bothering to follow up on such a thematically relevant mistake.

#64 Posted by cameron83 (7770 posts) - - Show Bio

Man I don't know if the writing got better, or I enjoyed it more just because the art was great?

#65 Edited by Blacharrt1 (760 posts) - - Show Bio

I seriously don't recall Havok's presence when the rest of the x-men were push into an internment camp...

#66 Edited by Polarity (108 posts) - - Show Bio

I seriously don't recall Havok's presence when the rest of the x-men were push into an internment camp...

What internment camp?

#67 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7678 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't recall Havok's "presence" all that much at all.

#68 Edited by Dernman (16865 posts) - - Show Bio

I think he was in outer space dealing with an crazy evil intergalactic dictator (his other brother) and didn't even know about it.

#69 Edited by Polarity (108 posts) - - Show Bio
#70 Edited by amutant (280 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

I love where they are taking Alex's character and I especially love the stance he's taken. Words like "mutant" and "mutie" have been presented in the Marvel Universe as epithets meant for exclusion from the human race and he nailed it when he said they were ALL human.

Erase the line drawn and leave it erased. Great idea, hope this direction is maintained.

Oh great. Now my name is politically incorrect derogatory word. Back to the user id drawing board. :P

#71 Posted by McKlayn (1175 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg said:

@polarity said:

Wow the CBR forums are crazy. Remender didn't help the situation, but still...

I went to go check out what was going on at CBR and... wow. Some people take things waaaay too seriously. LOL Rick Remender's responses:

LMAO i love remenders response

#72 Edited by lykopis (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@amutant:

Ha! Well, some people would argue your username is perfectly okay. :)

#73 Posted by akbogert (3285 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis said:

@amutant:

Ha! Well, some people would argue your username is perfectly okay. :)

Don't listen to her. She doesn't agree with Cyclops (the sort of person who would argue your username is perfectly okay) :P

#74 Posted by lykopis (10869 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@lykopis said:

@amutant:

Ha! Well, some people would argue your username is perfectly okay. :)

Don't listen to her. She doesn't agree with Cyclops (the sort of person who would argue your username is perfectly okay) :P

I was kindly neutral in my response -- as for the sort of person Cyclops is presently, I will refrain from voicing my opinion. Sometimes If you don't have anything nice to say, et cetera et cetera...

:P

#75 Edited by Fuchsia_Nightingale (10191 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice speech, really

But icky mutants are icky mutants pokes them with sharp stick

#76 Posted by ScarletBatman (373 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyclops believes Mutants and Humans should be completely separate.

Wolverine believes in the peaceful co-operation between Mutants and Humans.

Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human.

Which side is right very much depends on your point of view.

#77 Posted by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

Cyclops believes Mutants and Humans should be completely separate.

Wolverine believes in the peaceful co-operation between Mutants and Humans.

Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human.

Which side is right very much depends on your point of view.

"Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human." If only it was that easy. Havoc speech is useless. People won't simply stop hating mutant just because a mutant (who look like a human, white and straight man) told them.

Wolverine x Cyclops is a real debate. Havoc's point of view is a joke.

#78 Posted by Veshark (9167 posts) - - Show Bio

I can't tell if Remender's being tongue-in-cheek....or if he's just being a jerk on Twitter.

#79 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

@scarletbatman said:

Cyclops believes Mutants and Humans should be completely separate.

Wolverine believes in the peaceful co-operation between Mutants and Humans.

Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human.

Which side is right very much depends on your point of view.

"Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human." If only it was that easy. Havoc speech is useless. People won't simply stop hating mutant just because a mutant (who look like a human, white and straight man) told them.

Wolverine x Cyclops is a real debate. Havoc's point of view is a joke.

I dunno, people seem to be making a lot out of the fact that Havoc is a white, strait male because he's in a position where he's representing a minority; while I obviously see how this is problematic, I think it should be remembered that Havoc literally was a slave in Genosha during the time that they treated mutants as being subhuman. Given that, one could understand why his desire to identify as human would be great.

#80 Posted by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultra_beleco said:

@scarletbatman said:

Cyclops believes Mutants and Humans should be completely separate.

Wolverine believes in the peaceful co-operation between Mutants and Humans.

Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human.

Which side is right very much depends on your point of view.

"Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human." If only it was that easy. Havoc speech is useless. People won't simply stop hating mutant just because a mutant (who look like a human, white and straight man) told them.

Wolverine x Cyclops is a real debate. Havoc's point of view is a joke.

I dunno, people seem to be making a lot out of the fact that Havoc is a white, strait male because he's in a position where he's representing a minority; while I obviously see how this is problematic, I think it should be remembered that Havoc literally was a slave in Genosha during the time that they treated mutants as being subhuman. Given that, one could understand why his desire to identify as human would be great.

This is how poeple see him. He is talking to people who have no idea what he has passed through as mutant, it is irrelevant if he was a slave or a king he never adressed that at any moment in his speech, I just said that because is the only explanation for Havoc sudden authority to give a speech to the society since nobody knows who the hell he is.

My point is still the same. Just wanting to be human won't make you human to other people's eye. That's why his speech is pathetic, Saying "I don't want to be called a mutant!" won't stop people from hating you, or creating sentinels and threaten mutant population. He is behaving just like Wanda and I hope he gets the same end as her. Don't talk about a problem won't make it go away, in fact, in a lot of case (Like scarlet witch's) it only makes things a lot worse.

#81 Edited by Polarity (108 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultra_beleco said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

@ultra_beleco said:

@scarletbatman said:

Cyclops believes Mutants and Humans should be completely separate.

Wolverine believes in the peaceful co-operation between Mutants and Humans.

Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human.

Which side is right very much depends on your point of view.

"Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human." If only it was that easy. Havoc speech is useless. People won't simply stop hating mutant just because a mutant (who look like a human, white and straight man) told them.

Wolverine x Cyclops is a real debate. Havoc's point of view is a joke.

I dunno, people seem to be making a lot out of the fact that Havoc is a white, strait male because he's in a position where he's representing a minority; while I obviously see how this is problematic, I think it should be remembered that Havoc literally was a slave in Genosha during the time that they treated mutants as being subhuman. Given that, one could understand why his desire to identify as human would be great.

This is how poeple see him. He is talking to people who have no idea what he has passed through as mutant, it is irrelevant if he was a slave or a king he never adressed that at any moment in his speech, I just said that because is the only explanation for Havoc sudden authority to give a speech to the society since nobody knows who the hell he is.

My point is still the same. Just wanting to be human won't make you human to other people's eye. That's why his speech is pathetic, Saying "I don't want to be called a mutant!" won't stop people from hating you, or creating sentinels and threaten mutant population. He is behaving just like Wanda and I hope he gets the same end as her. Don't talk about a problem won't make it go away, in fact, in a lot of case (Like scarlet witch's) it only makes things a lot worse.

How does it make things worse? Was MLK pathetic? Is punching people in the face going to bring about equality? Besides it's more than just a speech, it's also active participation in pro-mutant group.

(And we all need to remind ourselves that there won't be any significant improvement no matter who does what because it would ruin the X-men as brand)

#82 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler said:

I dunno, people seem to be making a lot out of the fact that Havoc is a white, strait male because he's in a position where he's representing a minority; while I obviously see how this is problematic, I think it should be remembered that Havoc literally was a slave in Genosha during the time that they treated mutants as being subhuman. Given that, one could understand why his desire to identify as human would be great.

This is how poeple see him. He is talking to people who have no idea what he has passed through as mutant, it is irrelevant if he was a slave or a king he never adressed that at any moment in his speech, I just said that because is the only explanation for Havoc sudden authority to give a speech to the society since nobody knows who the hell he is.

well, I mean, it could be argued that he's been given this authority because he's being introduced as the new leader of the Avengers, a position that he was chosen for partially because of his diplomatic experience as well as his proven ability to lead both the X-men and the government X-factor team. But, like I say, I do still see why he may not have been the best choice. I think you're right that this is still his most high-profile gig, so much of his experience would not be commonly known; that is a fair point.

The point I took away from his speech was more that he's not trying to speak for mutants as a whole (like Cyclops sort of is), he's trying to be the leader of the Avengers as a person who is a mutant, and make that distinction mean something to people's perception.

As has already been pointed out, he may have missed his message in the problematic way he worded it (and I do hope someone calls him on that in the book); but I do like what it shows about his character that he's not totally comfortable in this role, that he hasn't quite figured it out yet. It makes him seem far less self-righteous than a lot of the other X-men characters, which is pretty refreshing, actually, and it just seems more natural because he is so new to the role. I like to think that his learning curve in all of this could be what makes him really stand out in this story, so hopefully that theme continues anyway.

#83 Edited by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

@ultra_beleco said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

@ultra_beleco said:

@scarletbatman said:

Cyclops believes Mutants and Humans should be completely separate.

Wolverine believes in the peaceful co-operation between Mutants and Humans.

Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human.

Which side is right very much depends on your point of view.

"Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human." If only it was that easy. Havoc speech is useless. People won't simply stop hating mutant just because a mutant (who look like a human, white and straight man) told them.

Wolverine x Cyclops is a real debate. Havoc's point of view is a joke.

I dunno, people seem to be making a lot out of the fact that Havoc is a white, strait male because he's in a position where he's representing a minority; while I obviously see how this is problematic, I think it should be remembered that Havoc literally was a slave in Genosha during the time that they treated mutants as being subhuman. Given that, one could understand why his desire to identify as human would be great.

This is how poeple see him. He is talking to people who have no idea what he has passed through as mutant, it is irrelevant if he was a slave or a king he never adressed that at any moment in his speech, I just said that because is the only explanation for Havoc sudden authority to give a speech to the society since nobody knows who the hell he is.

My point is still the same. Just wanting to be human won't make you human to other people's eye. That's why his speech is pathetic, Saying "I don't want to be called a mutant!" won't stop people from hating you, or creating sentinels and threaten mutant population. He is behaving just like Wanda and I hope he gets the same end as her. Don't talk about a problem won't make it go away, in fact, in a lot of case (Like scarlet witch's) it only makes things a lot worse.

How does it make things worse? Was MLK pathetic? Is punching people in the face going to bring about equality? Besides it's more than just a speech, it's also active participation in pro-mutant group.

(And we all need to remind ourselves that there won't be any significant improvement no matter who does what because it would ruin the X-men as brand)

1 - Sorry I had no Idea MLK said he wasn't black and that he hated being called black.

2 - Stop talking about a problem instead of finding a solution always make everything worse, just read HP books it is the same idea.

3 - Cyclops is punching people back (WAR). Wolverine is enduring the hits (PEACE). Havoc is simply pretending he is not the target of the puches.(????)

4 - "It is not gonna have any improvement because it would ruin X-men as a brand" - Really, I had no idea, I thought we could really do something about the terrible situation poor mutants face...oh wait, you're telling me they don't even exist???

#84 Edited by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: See just to clarify I'm not bashing Havoc. I understand that he wanted people to see him as another Avenger not as a mutant. He want to be seen like the other members of the team what makes sense. I'm just pointing that his speech does not make mutants life worst or better at all. And so far the "mutant-problem Avengers group" has made little to almost nothing that helped mutants.

I liked Wasp's Idea with the mutants outifit though.

#85 Posted by cameron83 (7770 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice speech, but i still don't buy the concept of Havok being the only viable proponent of Xavier's dream. Looks like this "speech" was a regurgitation of everything Remender's stated in regards to the character, but paraphrased. Things happen, but this looks like ridiculous fan-wanking. Just what, exactly, are the big wigs doing that Havok is putting them all to shame like this ?

Though, it was an okay issue. Rogue is just...lol.

Well said

#86 Posted by Polarity (108 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

@ultra_beleco said:

@oldnightcrawler said:

@ultra_beleco said:

@scarletbatman said:

Cyclops believes Mutants and Humans should be completely separate.

Wolverine believes in the peaceful co-operation between Mutants and Humans.

Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human.

Which side is right very much depends on your point of view.

"Havok believes that people are born different but in the end everyone is human." If only it was that easy. Havoc speech is useless. People won't simply stop hating mutant just because a mutant (who look like a human, white and straight man) told them.

Wolverine x Cyclops is a real debate. Havoc's point of view is a joke.

I dunno, people seem to be making a lot out of the fact that Havoc is a white, strait male because he's in a position where he's representing a minority; while I obviously see how this is problematic, I think it should be remembered that Havoc literally was a slave in Genosha during the time that they treated mutants as being subhuman. Given that, one could understand why his desire to identify as human would be great.

This is how poeple see him. He is talking to people who have no idea what he has passed through as mutant, it is irrelevant if he was a slave or a king he never adressed that at any moment in his speech, I just said that because is the only explanation for Havoc sudden authority to give a speech to the society since nobody knows who the hell he is.

My point is still the same. Just wanting to be human won't make you human to other people's eye. That's why his speech is pathetic, Saying "I don't want to be called a mutant!" won't stop people from hating you, or creating sentinels and threaten mutant population. He is behaving just like Wanda and I hope he gets the same end as her. Don't talk about a problem won't make it go away, in fact, in a lot of case (Like scarlet witch's) it only makes things a lot worse.

How does it make things worse? Was MLK pathetic? Is punching people in the face going to bring about equality? Besides it's more than just a speech, it's also active participation in pro-mutant group.

(And we all need to remind ourselves that there won't be any significant improvement no matter who does what because it would ruin the X-men as brand)

1 - Sorry I had no Idea MLK said he wasn't black and that he hated being called black.

2 - Stop talking about a problem instead of finding a solution always make everything worse, just read HP books it is the same idea.

3 - Cyclops is punching people back (WAR). Wolverine is enduring the hits (PEACE). Havoc is simply pretending he is not the target of the puches.(????)

4 - "It is not gonna have any improvement because it would ruin X-men as a brand" - Really, I had no idea, I thought we could really do something about the terrible situation poor mutants face...oh wait, you're telling me they don't even exist???

1. Remender made a mistake in not describing what he meant by "mutant" since it can be an allegory for just about anything. From what I can gather, "mutant" here meant something derogatory like monster or something less than human. Less black and more akin to n***er or negro or even worse. But that's something that should have been stated at the outset of the speech - big blunder by editorial and the writer.

2. Huh?

3. I really, really don't think a lot people understand what Alex is saying, because what you're saying doesn't make much sense whatsoever.

BTW it's setting an example that is the important part here, this is what the x-men have always been about and what they're lacking right now.

4. If the x-men ever win, then everyone retires and it's the end of the franchise... this isn't going to happen.

#87 Edited by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity: Sorry you didn't understood anything I wrote since the beggining, neither my point neither the sarcasm. Just forget it.

#88 Posted by Polarity (108 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: See just to clarify I'm not bashing Havoc. I understand that he wanted people to see him as another Avenger not as a mutant. He want to be seen like the other members of the team what makes sense. I'm just pointing that his speech does not make mutants life worst or better at all. And so far the "mutant-problem Avengers group" has made little to almost nothing that helped mutants.

I liked Wasp's Idea with the mutants outifit though.

Well ok then, apologies.

Actions speak louder then words, they always do.

#89 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

@oldnightcrawler: See just to clarify I'm not bashing Havoc. I understand that he wanted people to see him as another Avenger not as a mutant. He want to be seen like the other members of the team what makes sense. I'm just pointing that his speech does not make mutants life worst or better at all. And so far the "mutant-problem Avengers group" has made little to almost nothing that helped mutants.

I feel like Havoc's approach to all this (and Cap's) is that the best thing he can do for mutants is the thing he's doing for everyone, being the leader of the Avengers. The Avengers are heroes, generally beloved by the public whether they happen to be mutants or not. It puts the arbitrary nature of distinguishing between mutants and other super-powered beings in the forefront of their context, for the purpose of changing public perception of mutants.

We can never really know how well this approach is going to work (unless it totally backfires), since widespread public perception is hard to gauge and happens over long periods of time (how long have people been trying to fight bigotry in the real world? because it's not like that's gone away), but I hardly think that means it isn't worth trying.

Like I say, I don't feel that Havoc wants to speak for all mutants so much as he just wants to help out, and given his experience as a long-time superhero, leader, and as a mutant, he recognizes that this might be the best way to do that. It is a lot less direct and a lot more moderate, but those ways can work too, so it's not like it's nothing.

As for his speech, well, I'm prepared to see that as an unintended growing-pain of him being new to the job (especially if they actually have the guts to address the problematic interpretations it could have). Really the whole point of the press conference wasn't the speech at all so much as it was, "hey! -check out the Avengers' new leader, he's a mutant and former X-man; see, mutants can also be superheroes, so don't be so quick to judge.." kinda thing. The speech itself was just an unintentionally awkward introduction.

#90 Edited by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultra_beleco said:

@oldnightcrawler: See just to clarify I'm not bashing Havoc. I understand that he wanted people to see him as another Avenger not as a mutant. He want to be seen like the other members of the team what makes sense. I'm just pointing that his speech does not make mutants life worst or better at all. And so far the "mutant-problem Avengers group" has made little to almost nothing that helped mutants.

I feel like Havoc's approach to all this (and Cap's) is that the best thing he can do for mutants is the thing he's doing for everyone, being the leader of the Avengers. The Avengers are heroes, generally beloved by the public whether they happen to be mutants or not. It puts the arbitrary nature of distinguishing between mutants and other super-powered beings in the forefront of their context, for the purpose of changing public perception of mutants.

We can never really know how well this approach is going to work (unless it totally backfires), since widespread public perception is hard to gauge and happens over long periods of time (how long have people been trying to fight bigotry in the real world? because it's not like that's gone away), but I hardly think that means it isn't worth trying.

Like I say, I don't feel that Havoc wants to speak for all mutants so much as he just wants to help out, and given his experience as a long-time superhero, leader, and as a mutant, he recognizes that this might be the best way to do that. It is a lot less direct and a lot more moderate, but those ways can work too, so it's not like it's nothing.

As for his speech, well, I'm prepared to see that as an unintended growing-pain of him being new to the job (especially if they actually have the guts to address the problematic interpretations it could have). Really the whole point of the press conference wasn't the speech at all so much as it was, "hey! -check out the Avengers' new leader, he's a mutant and former X-man; see, mutants can also be superheroes, so don't be so quick to judge.." kinda thing. The speech itself was just an unintentionally awkward introduction.

1 - He says he doesn't like to be called a mutant. How does that help people who doesn't look like human beings?

2 - The fact that he is a mutant and scott's brother is the main reason he is really the team leader, not because he is a gret hero, he didn't have that much experience with the avengers so they could not know how good he was as a hero or lider.

3 - Havoc's aproach is worthless because "mutant-problem" already reached a critical moment. There are groups especialized in killing mutants who just survived a genocide. It is not only ideological there are people who want to destroy mutants with lots of support from human society, it doesn't matter at this point if he tells them he is just like a regular person.

#91 Edited by oldnightcrawler (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

1 - He says he doesn't like to be called a mutant. How does that help people who doesn't look like human beings?

2 - The fact that he is a mutant and scott's brother is the main reason he is really the team leader, not because he is a gret hero, he didn't have that much experience with the avengers so they could not know how good he was as a hero or lider.

3 - Havoc's aproach is worthless because "mutant-problem" already reached a critical moment. There are groups especialized in killing mutants who just survived a genocide. It is not only ideological there are people who want to destroy mutants with lots of support from human society, it doesn't matter at this point if he tells them he is just like a regular person.

1- he says he finds it divisive, and between mutant superheroes and other superheroes it is an arbitrary distinction to make. As for how that can help mutants who don't look like baseline humans, I can only assume that because Havoc himself probably doesn't make that distinction he probably either didn't think about it or hoped that his position as leader of the Avengers could help change the perception of mutants in a more general way, in the hopes that others would learn to look past these distinctions as well. I mean, maybe the Beast should have gotten this role, but it's not as though Havoc can be blamed for looking like he does.

2- The Avengers would at least know about his leadership of X-factor for sure.

And he faced them as an X-man, in the X-men versus the Avengers mini series back in '87. He's been a superhero since the end of the silver age, he's one of the classics. Obviously the fact that he's a mutant was one of the considerations for this team, and that he's a generally likable guy, but, affirmative action aside, you're not going to convince me he hasn't earned the right to do this job.

3- I agree with you that his personal feelings on the subject have little effect on what popular perception is, compared to what he can actually accomplish by just doing his job. But it's just an introduction at a press conference, and he's a superhero, not a politician.

What would you have him do?

#92 Edited by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

1- he says he finds it divisive, and between mutant superheroes and other superheroes it is an arbitrary distinction to make. As for how that can help mutants who don't look like baseline humans, I can only assume that because Havoc himself probably doesn't make that distinction he probably either didn't think about it or hoped that his position as leader of the Avengers could help change the perception of mutants in a more general way, in the hopes that others would learn to look past these distinctions as well. I mean, maybe the Beast should have gotten this role, but it's not as though Havoc can be blamed for looking like he does.

2- The Avengers would at least know about his leadership of X-factor for sure.

And he faced them as an X-man, in the X-men versus the Avengers mini series back in '87. He's been a superhero since the end of the silver age, he's one of the classics. Obviously the fact that he's a mutant was one of the considerations for this team, and that he's a generally likable guy, but, affirmative action aside, you're not going to convince me he hasn't earned the right to do this job.

3- I agree with you that his personal feelings on the subject have little effect on what popular perception is, compared to what he can actually accomplish by just doing his job. But it's just an introduction at a press conference, and he's a superhero, not a politician.

What would you have him do?

1 - Why call a leader of X-factor when there were mutants that were avengers for a lot longer with also great, or even bigger leadership feats? I answer that because they don't physically look like Cap. America.

2 - As a matter of fact the people who complained about Alex as the team leader were the mutants of the group. I think only Rogue didn't complained about him, and Sunfire but he has not been with the full team yet.

3 - Just as a personal note, one of the things that makes me hate this book is how bad the team rooster is when it could be a lot better. It is like the Avengers wanted internal fights. Why not put Danvers (Cap. marvel) in the team? She has worked with the X-men many times. Even Spider-woman would be better, I remember she was friend of the x-men in her ongoing.

4 - See. Like I said before I'm not bashing him or his belifs I'm just saying that compared to what Wolverine and Cyclops are doing he's action can't represent another edge for mutants at all. Some may say that he represents mutants that just want to stay at the "closet" makes some sense, but if the mutants are able to stay in the closet them how exactly are they helping? They are just not bothering anyone and are trying to live their lives, the point is: for a lot of mutants this is not a possibility.

#93 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

1 - Why call a leader of X-factor when there were mutants that were avengers for a lot longer with also great, or even bigger leadership feats? I answer that because they don't physically look like Cap. America.

2 - As a matter of fact the people who complained about Alex as the team leader were the mutants of the group. I think only Rogue didn't complained about him, and Sunfire but he has not been with the full team yet.

3 - Just as a personal note, one of the things that makes me hate this book is how bad the team rooster is when it could be a lot better. It is like the Avengers wanted internal fights. Why not put Danvers (Cap. marvel) in the team? She has worked with the X-men many times. Even Spider-woman would be better, I remember she was friend of the x-men in her ongoing.

4 - See. Like I said before I'm not bashing him or his belifs I'm just saying that compared to what Wolverine and Cyclops are doing he's action can't represent another edge for mutants at all. Some may say that he represents mutants that just want to stay at the "closet" makes some sense, but if the mutants are able to stay in the closet them how exactly are they helping? They are just not bothering anyone and are trying to live their lives, the point is: for a lot of mutants this is not a possibility.

1- I can see why people would think that, but I think it has more to do with him being one of the characters who was both a classic leader and available. Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, or Wolverine would be bad choices for Avengers leadership, Beast is an Avenger but he's also got his own responsibilities to the school. Storm heads the school and the X-men. Actually, I could see Storm being first in line for the job, if she hadn't just flown off at the first hint of the Phoenix. Yes, Havoc does more closely fit the stereotypical superhero look, but I don't see who else would make more sense.

2- Actually, the only character that's complained about Havoc being the leader was Scarlet Witch, and she's obviously not a big fan of X-men in general. Wolverine was shown to be trepidatious about the idea of the team in general, but not about Havoc leading it specifically.

3- I think it would be great to have Captain Marvel on this team, as she's been an X-man and an Avenger (the only non-mutant who can say that), plus it would probably be pretty fun to have her on the same team as Rogue. And Spider-woman would be cool too; the X-men actually lived with her for a while (during Secret Wars II). I personally really like the dynamic of the team they have right now, even if I'm not generally a big fan of SW or Wonderman, but that's a thing I like about this book is that it has the possibility to draw from all this great shared history. I mean, you just know there's gotta be a Beast and Wonderman reunion in there at some point. Cannonball's an Avenger now, so they could always bring him in. I think the team they have now is actually really good, but I love how much potential the concept gives them to shake it up and still have it feel organic.

4- I think being the leader of the Avengers, risking your life for everyone (mutant and non), even though you don't have to ever use your mutant ability, is, in itself, making a statement. Like you say, Havoc can totally pass as a baseline human, he doesn't have to live like a mutant or a superhero if he doesn't want to, so for him to be in a position where it's public knowledge that he's a mutant is actually the opposite of being "in the closet".

His position may not be as extreme as Cyclops', or even as particularly pro-mutant as the other X-men's, but it's the more moderate path of integration that is certainly in line with what Xavier himself was a proponent of.

And you still didn't answer my question :P

#94 Posted by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

1- I can see why people would think that, but I think it has more to do with him being one of the characters who was both a classic leader and available. Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, or Wolverine would be bad choices for Avengers leadership, Beast is an Avenger but he's also got his own responsibilities to the school. Storm heads the school and the X-men. Actually, I could see Storm being first in line for the job, if she hadn't just flown off at the first hint of the Phoenix. Yes, Havoc does more closely fit the stereotypical superhero look, but I don't see who else would make more sense.

2- Actually, the only character that's complained about Havoc being the leader was Scarlet Witch, and she's obviously not a big fan of X-men in general. Wolverine was shown to be trepidatious about the idea of the team in general, but not about Havoc leading it specifically.

3- I think it would be great to have Captain Marvel on this team, as she's been an X-man and an Avenger (the only non-mutant who can say that), plus it would probably be pretty fun to have her on the same team as Rogue. And Spider-woman would be cool too; the X-men actually lived with her for a while (during Secret Wars II). I personally really like the dynamic of the team they have right now, even if I'm not generally a big fan of SW or Wonderman, but that's a thing I like about this book is that it has the possibility to draw from all this great shared history. I mean, you just know there's gotta be a Beast and Wonderman reunion in there at some point. Cannonball's an Avenger now, so they could always bring him in. I think the team they have now is actually really good, but I love how much potential the concept gives them to shake it up and still have it feel organic.

4- I think being the leader of the Avengers, risking your life for everyone (mutant and non), even though you don't have to ever use your mutant ability, is, in itself, making a statement. Like you say, Havoc can totally pass as a baseline human, he doesn't have to live like a mutant or a superhero if he doesn't want to, so for him to be in a position where it's public knowledge that he's a mutant is actually the opposite of being "in the closet".

His position may not be as extreme as Cyclops', or even as particularly pro-mutant as the other X-men's, but it's the more moderate path of integration that is certainly in line with what Xavier himself was a proponent of.

And you still didn't answer my question :P

1 - If the question is "What would you have him do?" I would tell the truth. By that I mean the reason the team was created in the first place. It was because mutants were atacked and suffered loss after loss and neither the Avengers, Shield or the government gave a damm about it. After the speech and their actions they looked more interested in Stoping dangerous mutants them protecting the good ones. What would make sense by the way, I'm not complaining just pointing out.

2 - I would totally put Quicksilver as the team leader, I'm prety sure everyone would be ok with that, Maybe Wolverine wouldn't like at first but would be the only complain.

3 - I think the team fighting each other all the time is funny and really lead to good moments, the problem is, It doesn't make any sense, too much risk putting them together without real need.

4 - I don't remember Xavier making clear that mutants and humans are the same, I tought he always saw mutants as the next step of evolution, what is totally different from Havoc's view. Them again the last story I read with Xavier speaking anything was the one where Danger wants to kill him, so he may have chenged his point of views about human/mutant realationships.

5 - I don't really see Storm neither as a leader neither as a team member at all. In fact I think Storm is nowhere close to avenger's material and putting her in the team before was a big mistake.

#95 Posted by oldnightcrawler (5059 posts) - - Show Bio

1 - If the question is "What would you have him do?" I would tell the truth. By that I mean the reason the team was created in the first place. It was because mutants were atacked and suffered loss after loss and neither the Avengers, Shield or the government gave a damm about it. After the speech and their actions they looked more interested in Stoping dangerous mutants them protecting the good ones. What would make sense by the way, I'm not complaining just pointing out.

2 - I would totally put Quicksilver as the team leader, I'm prety sure everyone would be ok with that, Maybe Wolverine wouldn't like at first but would be the only complain.

3 - I think the team fighting each other all the time is funny and really lead to good moments, the problem is, It doesn't make any sense, too much risk putting them together without real need.

4 - I don't remember Xavier making clear that mutants and humans are the same, I tought he always saw mutants as the next step of evolution, what is totally different from Havoc's view. Them again the last story I read with Xavier speaking anything was the one where Danger wants to kill him, so he may have chenged his point of views about human/mutant realationships.

5 - I don't really see Storm neither as a leader neither as a team member at all. In fact I think Storm is nowhere close to avenger's material and putting her in the team before was a big mistake.

1- I agree, that would be the best way to go. Especially if Havoc is as interested in "complete transparency" as he claimed just before the press conference.

2- ahhhahahahahaha! Quicksilver? Ahhahahahahaha! good one, old boy!

3- I feel like all of these characters are seasoned enough and professional enough to not have that be a real issue. heehee.. Quicksilver..

4- Well, Xavier's dream was supposedly about "peaceful coexistence between mutants and humans", which is actually probably more in line with what Wolverine, Storm and those guys are doing. Havoc, unlike many mutants, has actually lived a normal human life (as an archeologist, lad technician, etc) as well as having had a colorful superheroing career, so I don' think he sees the need for there to be any distinction between the two. That's certainly at least more in line with what Xavier believed than what say, Cyclops or Magneto believed. Or, at least, that's my feeling on it.

5- I completely disagree if you're saying that she's not qualified. But I do agree that her personality can be pretty dominant. It's pretty much a waste to have her on a team and not have her be the leader of it; but then, if Storm is the leader of a team, to me that definitively makes that team the X-men, whether all of the members are mutants or not, so she basically can't be the leader of the Avengers. But, again, these are just my feelings on the subject.

#96 Posted by Blacharrt1 (760 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

@blacharrt1 said:

I seriously don't recall Havok's presence when the rest of the x-men were push into an internment camp...

What internment camp?

For awhile after HOM, mutants were considered and endangered species and the government took over the X-Mansion and then transported all surviving mutant there, all of those mutants were noted in the book 198, but that was said to be the amount of mutants left powered after HOM. It was effectively an internment camp, similar to the ones the japanese were placed in. The mutants had little to no rights and had to compromise with the government agent overseeing the camp. Whom Bishop seemed to teamup with them to help contain the mutants.

#97 Edited by PhoenixoftheTides (3792 posts) - - Show Bio

It's kind of sad that in a universe where gods and people with amazing powers walk the Earth, it is considered hubris for them to use that power to unilaterally do what they think is right if what they do is benign. But superheroes, in general, are flawed characters with selfish justifications for everything they do. I know they are trying to retcon the things the P5 did to seem morally questionable, but everything they created would have pushed humanity to a whole new level of development if allowed to proceed. Ah well: it's a problem that a science fiction book would have probably explored better.

#98 Posted by Ultra_beleco (184 posts) - - Show Bio

@phoenixofthetides: I wish Marvel made a "What if..." issue in an universe where the phoenix five remained in control and the world fluorished. :D

Never gonna happen. I know.