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#1 Edited by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

Well it took five issues, but they finally addressed the point of the book and hit the nail right on the head. While I support Cyclops' revolution and feel it's a necessary movement to have in the current MU climate, as a minority I've held Alex's view on things for a long time - that labels themselves keep us from seeing each other as equals.

I tempted not to post the pages as they're worth the $3.99 themselves, but hopefully this'll spark some good discussion:

As a sidenote, this was probably the best issue of UA overall, so it's definitely worth picking up. Anytime a mutant shuts down Cap it's a good read lol - but seriously, there are some great moments in this issue. Just get it.

#2 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7282 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice speech, but i still don't buy the concept of Havok being the only viable proponent of Xavier's dream. Looks like this "speech" was a regurgitation of everything Remender's stated in regards to the character, but paraphrased. Things happen, but this looks like ridiculous fan-wanking. Just what, exactly, are the big wigs doing that Havok is putting them all to shame like this ?

Though, it was an okay issue. Rogue is just...lol.

#3 Posted by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice speech, but i still don't buy the concept of Havok being the only viable proponent of Xavier's dream. Looks like this "speech" was a regurgitation of everything Remender's stated in regards to the character, but paraphrased. Things happen, but this looks like ridiculous fan-wanking. Just what, exactly, are the big wigs doing that Havok is putting them all to shame like this ?

Though, it was an okay issue. Rogue is just...lol.

I don't think that's viable either, but I think it's their way of tying the debate of "which way is right" even tighter. Here you have mutant brothers - one of which is one of, if not the, most high-profile mutants on the planet before AvX happened - on extreme opposite ends of the debate.

What does bother me is that Cyclops has said that he supports Xavier's dream in the classic sense, but sees the need to have mutants prepared to defend themselves if/when a group like the Purifiers show up on their again or the government does what it's been doing over in the Ultimate universe. Yet w/ that being said, other characters look at him as turning his back on the dream altogether - that I don't understand.

I don't understand your last question. Are you referring to the speech? B/c when I mentioned Havok putting Cap in his place, I meant in another scene.

#4 Posted by judasnixon (6424 posts) - - Show Bio

Man I don't know if the writing got better, or I enjoyed it more just because the art was great?

#5 Edited by Polarity (106 posts) - - Show Bio

Nice speech, but i still don't buy the concept of Havok being the only viable proponent of Xavier's dream. Looks like this "speech" was a regurgitation of everything Remender's stated in regards to the character, but paraphrased. Things happen, but this looks like ridiculous fan-wanking. Just what, exactly, are the big wigs doing that Havok is putting them all to shame like this ?

Though, it was an okay issue. Rogue is just...lol.

I don't think anyone believes he is the only viable proponent, just one of many and he should be as good as any other x-man. But man is there a lot of vitrol going around about that speech.

#6 Posted by SC (12918 posts) - - Show Bio

Entire issue was great. Was nice to have another strong distinct vantage point presented. Wanda seemed a bit too victimized for me at parts, Rogue was great, enjoying Simon's new angle. Best issue so far, I hope it stays at this consistency.

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#7 Posted by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

@judasnixon said:

Man I don't know if the writing got better, or I enjoyed it more just because the art was great?

I think it's all of the above. This issue just stepped it up on all fronts.

#8 Posted by AgeofHurricane (7282 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg said:
@ageofhurricane said:

Nice speech, but i still don't buy the concept of Havok being the only viable proponent of Xavier's dream. Looks like this "speech" was a regurgitation of everything Remender's stated in regards to the character, but paraphrased. Things happen, but this looks like ridiculous fan-wanking. Just what, exactly, are the big wigs doing that Havok is putting them all to shame like this ?

Though, it was an okay issue. Rogue is just...lol.

I don't think that's viable either, but I think it's their way of tying the debate of "which way is right" even tighter. Here you have mutant brothers - one of which is one of, if not the, most high-profile mutants on the planet before AvX happened - on extreme opposite ends of the debate.

What does bother me is that Cyclops has said that he supports Xavier's dream in the classic sense, but sees the need to have mutants prepared to defend themselves if/when a group like the Purifiers show up on their again or the government does what it's been doing over in the Ultimate universe. Yet w/ that being said, other characters look at him as turning his back on the dream altogether - that I don't understand.

I don't understand your last question. Are you referring to the speech? B/c when I mentioned Havok putting Cap in his place, I meant in another scene.

Yeah. I see the oxymoronic juxtaposition of the brothers and how that was the obvious outcome for Marvel and AvX, but here we go again with placing characters at the forefront of which they've done nothing to earn the right to push a story, of which i'm referring to Havok.

I think it's the fact that everyone has taken the Wolverine kool-aid and are legitimately feeling that his is the way forward. That, if you want to stand for Xavier's dream and have people view you as a fellow believer, it's Wolverine's way or the wrong way. Cyclops is taking the wrong way because he's going about it a different way, i mean if he's said (not that i've seen or was too oblivious) that he still supports the dream, then we can only take him for his word. But from their perspective, i'd like to think the feeling is he's turned his back on them, as opposed to the dream itself. From what i've seen, he's doing something to an extent to achieve it, and did, during AvX.

Talking about the big-wigs of the X-Men. I don't believe it should have taken AvX for any of this to have come to light. Things should have been said as well as done some time after M-Day.

#9 Edited by SC (12918 posts) - - Show Bio

The character supposedly known as "Cyclops" has been taken it the wrong way ever since the X-Editorial started assassinating the character worst than the character received around the whole Madelyne/Jean/Phoenix era. Then they split X-Men into a black and white dichotomy and many X-Fans followed suit never questioning why for 30 plus years X-Men's whole shtick was grey zone story telling. Then Schism made it worse because now people lumped you into Cyclops followers or Wolverine followers, with people reducing you into either camp when it was really just incompetent writing draining both characters and readers intelligence.

Now we only need characters like Emma, Storm, Magneto, to find their backbones and give a distinct distinguishable voice to all that has happened in the last decade or so. I am glad that Havok is getting to forge his own path.

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#10 Posted by Polarity (106 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow the CBR forums are crazy. Remender didn't help the situation, but still...

#11 Posted by John Valentine (16307 posts) - - Show Bio

Best issue of the run so far.

I'm not the biggest Havok fan, I actually think he's a pathetic sellout, but he's the most suitable person, IMO, to voice this integration viewpoint. Maybe this stance, if followed up correctly, will actually make him worth a damn.

#12 Posted by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

Wow the CBR forums are crazy. Remender didn't help the situation, but still...

I went to go check out what was going on at CBR and... wow. Some people take things waaaay too seriously. LOL Rick Remender's responses:

#13 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4818 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh, no, it's a bad stance, to say the least. And Remender's response to any criticism, no matter how valid it is...well, I don't really have words.

#14 Posted by Backflip (2262 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow Remender came off as an ass in Twitter

#15 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4818 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Posted by chasereis (794 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow. I like Remender even more now...its about time some brought this concept back.

#17 Edited by AgeofHurricane (7282 posts) - - Show Bio

Don't blame him. Uncanny X-Force is a title that (as it should) receives transcendent praise, 24/7. Never once have i ever seen it receive critique or a negative. Remender's also constantly getting showered in glory because of it. He's not used to knowing how it feels like when fans turn against you for a slight quark, but now he does, and because of his inexperience in that particular respect, he reacted the way he did. He obviously expected more praise in this Road to Damascus issue, but received the unprecedented opposite, and took by force. Narcissism at its finest, imo.

Pride comes before the fall. If he doesn't humble himself soon, he's going to get notorious reputation. It's a two-way fault.

#18 Posted by HopesummersFORtheFUTURE (2783 posts) - - Show Bio

Havok is not a popular character, never has been, never will be. Besides in x-men the end, he was only mentioned when scott says he couldnt save him, so i wander if he would die soon, maybe.....

#19 Posted by Polarity (106 posts) - - Show Bio

Havok was pretty damn popular in the late 80s and 90s.

But then again the 00s haven't been good to quite a few x-men.

#20 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4818 posts) - - Show Bio

Havok is not a popular character, never has been, never will be. Besides in x-men the end, he was only mentioned when scott says he couldnt save him, so i wander if he would die soon, maybe.....

It's a really bad idea to look to this story for portents of what will happen in the future. There's already so much that's been invalidated.

#21 Posted by SC (12918 posts) - - Show Bio

@polarity said:

Havok was pretty damn popular in the late 80s and 90s.

But then again the 00s haven't been good to quite a few x-men.

Nope, the 80's and 90's don't exist, your only a popular character if you were liked by a fan when they read a comic (in the last ten years natch) and used their/your ability to gauge every other reader and fans appreciation and idea of a character. So Havok never was, never is, and never will be a popular character and I am the Tsar of Lollipops.

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#22 Posted by Ellie_Knightfall (4818 posts) - - Show Bio

This is an excellent article on the topic. Well worth the read.

#23 Posted by SC (12918 posts) - - Show Bio

This is an excellent article on the topic. Well worth the read.

Its pretty good, I think it neglects one huge angle though. Myself personally? I disagree with Havok's stance strongly, but its probably the most common stance I come across as far as a person who is okay with being labeled pro gay, pro LGBT, feminist, agnostic, atheist, and like a hundred other things. That X-Books and the world of mutants would lack such a presence and voice totally makes the world unrealistic and way too simple and way too basic.

Havok's view is pretty naive, idealistic, well intentioned but yeah kind of naive, but pretty much all the views presented as far as minorities in Marvel have been naive with the exception of a few writers. The writer of the article doesn't cover that angle, because I agree with them, that the "its just a story" defense doesn't cut it, but reality isn't filled with people whose politics are refined or advanced and neither have any of the minority politics reflected by any characters or writers in recent times demonstrated this either. Havok's speech does one thing though, it adds to the overall depth of those minority politics by voicing an all too real grey angle and perspective.

Then the writer of article takes issue with a writer writing issues but not wanting to discuss their writing in a real life context? So does Garth Ennis open himself up to having twitter conversations about rape, cannibalism, necrophilia and the like now too? They also assume a whole bunch to make their arguments fit. They fail to consider the alternatives as well as because of those assumptions. It kind of undermines their arguments, because ironically its that same failure to identify the nuisances, attitudes, ways of how people approach conformity/deviation/segregation/assimilation that is the reason why racial, gender so on issues persist today.

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#24 Posted by Polarity (106 posts) - - Show Bio

@sc said:

@ellie_knightfall said:

This is an excellent article on the topic. Well worth the read.

Its pretty good, I think it neglects one huge angle though. Myself personally? I disagree with Havok's stance strongly, but its probably the most common stance I come across as far as a person who is okay with being labeled pro gay, pro LGBT, feminist, agnostic, atheist, and like a hundred other things. That X-Books and the world of mutants would lack such a presence and voice totally makes the world unrealistic and way too simple and way too basic.

Havok's view is pretty naive, idealistic, well intentioned but yeah kind of naive, but pretty much all the views presented as far as minorities in Marvel have been naive with the exception of a few writers. The writer of the article doesn't cover that angle, because I agree with them, that the "its just a story" defense doesn't cut it, but reality isn't filled with people whose politics are refined or advanced and neither have any of the minority politics reflected by any characters or writers in recent times demonstrated this either. Havok's speech does one thing though, it adds to the overall depth of those minority politics by voicing an all too real grey angle and perspective.

Then the writer of article takes issue with a writer writing issues but not wanting to discuss their writing in a real life context? So does Garth Ennis open himself up to having twitter conversations about rape, cannibalism, necrophilia and the like now too? They also assume a whole bunch to make their arguments fit. They fail to consider the alternatives as well as because of those assumptions. It kind of undermines their arguments, because ironically its that same failure to identify the nuisances, attitudes, ways of how people approach conformity/deviation/segregation/assimilation that is the reason why racial, gender so on issues persist today.

Nuance is key isn't it? I'm pretty sure Alex's speech was designed to be the motto/message of the team, but then again I'm also sure Remender and editorial thought there wouldn't be such a backlash to it. As far as politics and racial identification, Alex espewed a different point-of-view in early ANAD X-factor and certainly wasn't naive in his views there or during his just previous tenure with the X-men. I'm kind of dissapointed that Remender decided to take away that viewpoint and replaced it with this one with out any justification or any previous hint that Alex held such views. I wonder if there is someway to correlate the two? PAD could probably do it, I'm not sure Remender can.

#25 Edited by SC (12918 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with using him as a tool to distinguish the Uncanny Avengers team, and to me the irony is the same exact thing happened with Cyclops when Brubaker/Fraction started writing Uncanny. Plus yeah Alex has had a different outlook on this in the past, the exact same way Scott was vehemently and passionately against killing enemies once upon a time because doing so would invalidate all the hard work they had done as X-Men and justify the stance of their greatest villain Magneto. Both have had their past history and characterization seemingly ignored or neglected in order to sell a new edict for X-Men. The thing with Remender and at least the circles I have travelled in is that his characterization and consistency isn't that great at all. I enjoyed his Uncanny X-Force run, but was highly critical of his knowledge of characters pasts beyond the superficial cartoonish elements.

This is a writer who didn't seem to have a clue about Gambit and Storms close friendship when talking about both in interviews, his handling of characters like Jamie Braddock and so on. Remender is basically Matt Fraction with better more original characterization and character interaction. So to have Remender gloss over Havok's history? Unfortunately no surprise to me, but I do find it - I think it could benefit Havok potentially. I also wonder if there is a way to correlate the two because I think Havok's voice deserves to be loud and distinguishable, and lol well I am a bigger fan of PAD than Remender, both are enjoyable to me, but a big thing for me as a fan of X-Men is characterization and consistency. I hope there is a way to reconcile Havoks views whilst giving him a strong independent voice and role in MU.

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#26 Edited by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

I love where they are taking Alex's character and I especially love the stance he's taken. Words like "mutant" and "mutie" have been presented in the Marvel Universe as epithets meant for exclusion from the human race and he nailed it when he said they were ALL human.

Erase the line drawn and leave it erased. Great idea, hope this direction is maintained.

#27 Posted by Madame_Mist (1325 posts) - - Show Bio

I really don't get the push for Havok to be the new Mutant leader or whatever. Both he and Scott are both damaged goods.

#28 Edited by FadeToBlackBolt (23334 posts) - - Show Bio

This is an excellent article on the topic. Well worth the read.

Very nice.

The problem with this is that a writer who is incredibly vapid and simplistic. His responses to criticism (and his previous work prove that), this is exactly why imbeciles shouldn't try to be deep, they just dig themselves into a hole. Rick, you're not clever, you're not a writer, and the only reason to read your work is if one is interested in the most shallow crap available. Accept it and move on.

#29 Posted by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

What bothers me most is that this is one character's stance in a story of multiple opinions being spotlighted. Does every character have to have a stance that can't be considered controversial? Just the fact that people are reacting the way they are shows the genius of writing Havok this way. Whether Remender had this type of blowback in mind is obviously debatable. Overall I just can't stand the mentality of people getting so offended by one character in a story of dozens being written a certain way. Hate to sound cliche, but people are overly sensitive to everything nowadays. Nowadays people approach everything like it's a personal attack on them and then the characterizations just flying. He's racist! He's a bigot! He's a homophobe! The last of which is a word that the media has morphed into the equivalent of being a racist. So today's status quo is basically "I have the right to my opinion, however if you disagree w/ it, you're a bigot!"

On a personal note:

I'm a minority myself and can understand someone not wanting to be identified by what was given to them at birth, but instead by their character. Yes, I have an issue if someone describes me as "that black guy", just Havok doesn't want people to look at him as "that mutant". This doesn't mean I hate being black or want to distance myself from it, yet at the same time I do recognize the need for people to get past black, white, etc and just start getting to know the other 99% of the things that make people around us who they are. Is that a bit naive? Yes, but only because our society has been stuck on race for so long that it seems like a ridiculous idea to take any other approach. Given, we are a ridiculously long way from something like this coming fruition - but it's equivalent to Xavier's dream, something that has to be worked at, earned and requires a tremendous amount of patience.

#30 Posted by Aiden Cross (15562 posts) - - Show Bio

I enjoyed the speech itself =)

#31 Edited by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

Remender has posted an apology.

As a side note, I hope Havok taking off the mask - since he doesn't want to hide who he is - will be the last time we have to see it. I've never liked that thing - it looks silly.

Found this on Comics Alliance:

#32 Edited by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

@ellie_knightfall said:

This is an excellent article on the topic. Well worth the read.

Still need to read the rest, but thus far I'm not agreeing.

From the article:

Speaking of Morlocks; what makes this call for assimilation especially upsetting is that it comes from a character who, in every regard other than his fictional minority status, is emphatically representative of the majority. Remender, an able-bodied straight white man, uses Havok, an able-bodied straight white man, to tell people who don't have his advantages that they should assimilate. He's the majority in minority drag, or as ComicsAlliance Editor-in-Chief Joe Hughes put it, "he's a guy who looks like Matt Damon trying to talk like Chuck D." (Note: that link is NSFW if you aren't wearing headphones.)

Havok is literally the lead Aryan in a team that, when the series first launched, boasted more blond-haired, blue-eyed Aryans than it did women or persons of color. (Havok used to have brown eyes; not anymore.) That makes the speech presumptuous, because Havok can pass.

If he takes off his tights and puts on normal clothes, he's another generically handsome white man, treated as such wherever he goes. His speech doesn't take account of mutants who can't choose not to be defined by their difference. His speech sends Artie and Leech scurrying back into the sewer. That's one of the many problems with assimilation; it only accepts those who are fit to be assimilated.

While I don't agree w/ the term assimilate, this is a very good point.

From a CA user named Kallistrate:

I'd like to add: While I appreciate the persecution parallels that are drawn between the X-Men and real-life minorities because they make the stories engaging and relatable, I've rarely been so enamored of these drawn characters that the characters' decisions or statements affect the way I live my life (for example, I've never set myself on fire to be like the Human Torch or murdered people "for change" trying to emulate Cyclops). They're written by human beings and are taken as such, so I don't feel the writers have an obligation or moral imperative to push the "right" message 100% of the time. If I want to have someone tell me how to behave or think, there are plenty of PSAs out there going unwatched because, quite frankly, most people don't enjoy being told how to think or behave by their entertainment.

This I agree with.

#33 Edited by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright this is all alot to take in, but I hated the speech. Xaver's dream was about acceptance, NOT assimilation. Standing as equals and being respected not throwing away their identity and history. I also agree that Remender acted like a complete ass in his comments and honestly doesn't understand one of the core messages behind the X-Men. The X-Men's history has been widely developed by mirroring the struggles of minorities in the United States. Hell Xavier and Erik are based off of Martian Luther King Jr. and Malcom X.

#34 Posted by God_Spawn (37594 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright this is all alot to take in, but I hated the speech. Xaver's dream was about acceptance, NOT assimilation. Standing as equals and being respected not throwing away their identity and history. I also agree that Remender acted like a complete ass in his comments and honestly doesn't understand one of the core messages behind the X-Men. The X-Men's history has been widely developed by mirroring the struggles of minorities in the United States. Hell Xavier and Erik are based off of Martian Luther King Jr. and Malcom X.

I agree with this.

Moderator
#35 Posted by SC (12918 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg said:

He's racist! He's a bigot! He's a homophobe! The last of which is a word that the media has morphed into the equivalent of being a racist. So today's status quo is basically "I have the right to my opinion, however if you disagree w/ it, you're a bigot!"

Its often easier for some to paint ones own stance as more valid by painting opposing views as things that they are not. Naturally it means not much progress is made. Much harder to actually address the smart arguments or angles - I mean I have already come across a multitude of different interpretations of what Havok's speech "means" all with varying degrees of validity. Each with other people addressing them in as many ways as well.

On a side note, I don't mind Remender's Twitter reaction, hasn't been the first writer to won't be the last.

Moderator
#36 Posted by SC (12918 posts) - - Show Bio

Alright this is all alot to take in, but I hated the speech. Xaver's dream was about acceptance, NOT assimilation. Standing as equals and being respected not throwing away their identity and history. I also agree that Remender acted like a complete ass in his comments and honestly doesn't understand one of the core messages behind the X-Men. The X-Men's history has been widely developed by mirroring the struggles of minorities in the United States. Hell Xavier and Erik are based off of Martian Luther King Jr. and Malcom X.

Hello, sorry, small nitpick, Xavier and Magneto weren't actually based off Martin Luther Junior and Malcolm X, their development later on was, but it was after the fact of their creation. Sort of irrelevant but I notice this is one of those things that tends to carry through. I like your post too.

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#37 Posted by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg said:

@ellie_knightfall said:

This is an excellent article on the topic. Well worth the read.

Still need to read the rest, but thus far I'm not agreeing.

From the article:

Speaking of Morlocks; what makes this call for assimilation especially upsetting is that it comes from a character who, in every regard other than his fictional minority status, is emphatically representative of the majority. Remender, an able-bodied straight white man, uses Havok, an able-bodied straight white man, to tell people who don't have his advantages that they should assimilate. He's the majority in minority drag, or as ComicsAlliance Editor-in-Chief Joe Hughes put it, "he's a guy who looks like Matt Damon trying to talk like Chuck D." (Note: that link is NSFW if you aren't wearing headphones.)

Havok is literally the lead Aryan in a team that, when the series first launched, boasted more blond-haired, blue-eyed Aryans than it did women or persons of color. (Havok used to have brown eyes; not anymore.) That makes the speech presumptuous, because Havok can pass.

If he takes off his tights and puts on normal clothes, he's another generically handsome white man, treated as such wherever he goes. His speech doesn't take account of mutants who can't choose not to be defined by their difference. His speech sends Artie and Leech scurrying back into the sewer. That's one of the many problems with assimilation; it only accepts those who are fit to be assimilated.

While I don't agree w/ the term assimilate, this is a very good point.

From a CA user named Kallistrate:

I'd like to add: While I appreciate the persecution parallels that are drawn between the X-Men and real-life minorities because they make the stories engaging and relatable, I've rarely been so enamored of these drawn characters that the characters' decisions or statements affect the way I live my life (for example, I've never set myself on fire to be like the Human Torch or murdered people "for change" trying to emulate Cyclops). They're written by human beings and are taken as such, so I don't feel the writers have an obligation or moral imperative to push the "right" message 100% of the time. If I want to have someone tell me how to behave or think, there are plenty of PSAs out there going unwatched because, quite frankly, most people don't enjoy being told how to think or behave by their entertainment.

This I agree with.

Fantastic.

I enjoyed the speech itself =)

Yep - me too.

I don't quite get is happening in terms of people reacting to who it was that delivered the speech. Blond, Aryan, what now? Didn't anyone read the book? Did they not see Havok refused to listen to Captain America when he suggested both Rogue and Scarlet Witch not be at the press conference?

Say what now?

This is a comic environment where just having a mutant power -- not just a physically obvious one that made you be subjected to hatred. Warren had wings for crying out loud that he taped up and hid behind blazers and he's the most beautiful man in the world, in terms of Aryan looks.

Scott wants to keep mutants separate, MUTANT POWER **double X cross** and his brother wants no separation whatsoever because they are all human. They are -- even the Morlock type mutants. All Beak wanted to be be accepted -- same with Nightcrawler -- and they both would be on board with Alex. Especially Nightcrawler.

Remender was well within rights to tweet whatever he wanted. He said nothing that was homophobic, racist etc. He was infantile -- sure. He reacted tongue in cheek and aggressively? Yeppers. Just like many other writers who took to internet to pop off remarks in reaction to criticism. Always should wait a day -- and he's apologized. I would be upset too if someone called my writing racist.

#38 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32993 posts) - - Show Bio

I'll consider picking this book up when Sunfire and Uncle Tom - I mean Havok, stop dressing like utter tools

#39 Edited by Aiden Cross (15562 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: i'm hardly a X-Men expert like most of you are in this thread and i actually stopped reading the X-Universe after the events of the Phoenix 5. So i have no real clue of what's going on besides the little snippits i come across on the forums.

So i base my opinion purely on my prior (limited) knowledge of the X-Men and these two pages. But from what i read here i can see nothing wrong with it. Alex doesn't agree with his brother, he doesn't belittle him or anything or paints him as a monster. He gives his view on the current situation and says that they're all humans. And in my eyes he's right, i think people look too much behind it and just trying to find reasons to disagree with it. And sure, if you look deep enough you can always find something (especially with extremely elaborate history like the x-men). But if you purely look at the speech itself and recent events, i think it's excellent writing myself. Again, i'm no X-Men expert. But maybe that's my blessing so i can appreciate the speech and writing for what it is and not be bothered by the history behind it? :)

#40 Posted by Saren (25583 posts) - - Show Bio

"Genefreak" is a lot catchier, but ok, all mutants are now Alex

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#41 Posted by Lvenger (19129 posts) - - Show Bio

So glad Cyclops' own brother is calling him out on his ****. It makes me happy that not every mutant goes along with Scott's self righteous crusade.

#42 Edited by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

So glad Cyclops' own brother is calling him out on his ****. It makes me happy that not every mutant goes along with Scott's self righteous crusade.

Scott doesn't want to keep mutants separate. Post-Schism and post-AvX he clearly told Wolverine that he supports the JGS, but he also sees a need for a more militant stance to protect mutants until Xavier's dream is accomplished. One of the key lines in his note to Wolverine was something like "thank you for being the better man so I don't have to be". I'll see if I can find the exact pages, but Cyclops is fully onboard w/ Xavier's dream - he's just making it his mission to keep mutants safe until that day comes.

#43 Posted by poisonfleur (3019 posts) - - Show Bio

I like the art. :)

#44 Edited by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg said:

@lvenger said:

So glad Cyclops' own brother is calling him out on his ****. It makes me happy that not every mutant goes along with Scott's self righteous crusade.

Scott doesn't want to keep mutants separate. Post-Schism and post-AvX he clearly told Wolverine that he supports the JGS, but he also sees a need for a more militant stance to protect mutants until Xavier's dream is accomplished. One of the key lines in his note to Wolverine was something like "thank you for being the better man so I don't have to be". I'll see if I can find the exact pages, but Cyclops is fully onboard w/ Xavier's dream - he's just making it his mission to keep mutants safe until that day comes.

Don't agree. He feels guilt and he wants to atone for what he did, but following Xavier's dream is not what he has done, and he is not continuing that either. (My opinion, clearly)

He separates mutants from humans. Scott might think he's going about it the right way, but he's not. Just the use of the word "militant" proves it -- Xavier dream was never about using an end to justifying the means - it was a fundamental difference between him and Magneto.

#45 Edited by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: How does that image refute anything I said? How does it illustrate he wants mutants to be separate?

It doesn't do either.

#46 Posted by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg said:

@lykopis: How does that image refute anything I said? How does it illustrate he wants mutants to be separate?

It doesn't do either.

The image I supplied was to support what I said -- not to refute yours. You have your opinion, I have mine -- and I supplied an image in support of mine. Just for the heck of it.

He clearly calls mutants part of an elite species. Just throwing it out there -- and he did in in a very public way.

#47 Posted by Lvenger (19129 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg: "If you are a mutant you are part of an elite species that deserves every freedom." Seriously how is that not elitist? How does that not counter your suggestion? It shows that Cyclops is being horribly superior about the mutant race. And Xavier's dream is being warped by Cyclops so much it isn't even recognisable. His character's been butchered and I can't stand him

@lykopis: Hey lyko long time no see! Finding people on the new CV is damn annoying to say the least.

#48 Posted by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

@lykopis: No, you said Cyclops wanted to keep mutants separate. That image does not illustrate that.

However, the below images fully support what I said - that Cyclops still supports Xavier's dream, but he's aware that the world still hates mutants and someone needs to protect them until the dream is fulfilled.

#49 Edited by CTG (228 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: The images I posted. ^^^

Though I will agree that they shouldn't have used the word "elite". It goes against everything else he's done UXM - but I'm not gonna throw it all away due to one word. Pages and pages that show otherwise trump that.

#50 Posted by lykopis (10753 posts) - - Show Bio

@ctg said:

@lykopis: No, you said Cyclops wanted to keep mutants separate. That image does not illustrate that.

However, the below images fully support what I said - that Cyclops still supports Xavier's dream, but he's aware that the world still hates mutants and someone needs to protect them until the dream is fulfilled.

Scott is all about mutants now -- the preservation of his "people". My image supplied illustrates that quite clearly.

As for that note? What does that prove? That he is doing what is "necessary" and isn't being the better man. What does that prove to support your idea on this?

Frankly, I am not going to debate this with you. This is clearly going to disintegrate into subjective semantics and I can't be bothered because no offense, I am tired of it. Most X-Men fans are.

Scott is not pursuing Xavier's dream - not in the way that Xavier taught him to -- so again, like I said, my opinion.