#1 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Recent advertisement says it all.

WW wielding a sword while holding a baby and the lasso seems unnecessarily unravelling around her- symbolic of her character destruction.

Sadly, it feels like someone behind the scenes wants WW in her place as a babysitter and depicted as trying to be one of the boys on the side.

The real WW will rise again.

#2 Edited by The Poet (8336 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri:

question for you: have you been reading the current ongoing WW series? and what do you think of it? I'm just curious.

Personally, I thought that series is fairly decent and that she is not a babysitter in that series (true she has gone on a quest for Zeus's last born, but I don't think she's exactly weak in that series).

I do however think she is now more like arm candy for Superman. JL and other series depicting WW/sups's relationship make the character seem a little weaker. Like she needs a man to be strong and that man is superman. I don't think that version of the character is fair for the female icon WW has been in the past. However, since the writer of the WW has refused to have superman in that series I don't think in that series she is to the point of being a babysitter. In the other series maybe, but I don't know about her main title.

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#3 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (739 posts) - - Show Bio

She's a babysitter and a horrible one at that. Poor Zeke would have been dead a long time ago, if Orion, Lennox and everybody hadn't helped out and took up Wonder Woman's slack.

#4 Posted by PeppeyHare (4310 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sorry what?

#5 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (739 posts) - - Show Bio

She's an ineffectual babysitter. After the second time the pregnant woman or her child -that you've sworn to protect- have been kidnapped, you should start to ask yourself if you're up to the task. Could you imagine all these shenanigans going on, if Zola and Zeke were in Batman's care?

#6 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_poet:

Yes, I have read the book. In her own title, WW has been saving/protecting the same mother and child since page one of issue 1. Not only has the danger to mother and child never been fully resolved, WW has in fact brought them into the heart of danger time and again as well as personally failed to save them herself. She actually keeps losing them for someone else to rescue.

The image of WW holding a baby while trying to look bad ass with a sword is not the iconic image anyone was desiring or speaks well. This image is not as much heroic as desperate to me. A good hero does not let the the baby that close to danger or a fight.

#7 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: She can't really keep Zeke away from danger because he is the focal point of the whole story. Wherever she takes him, Apollo or the First born will follow, hence the best she can do is keep him safe while fending off those guys. As for her needing help, I don't think its too bad because it makes the character more real in that she isn't all powerful and actually keeps a very volatile team together in her quest.

#8 Edited by kapitein_zeppos (341 posts) - - Show Bio

Ah yes, the harsh reality of writing an interesting female character. Most people simply use the hopelessly ill defined "strong woman" trope which usually boils down to taking a stock male character, slap on some sexy boobs and then put in a few "femininy" touches like being protective or liking cute fluffy things etc ...

#9 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by Bruxae (13866 posts) - - Show Bio

I do feel like this whole baby thing is way to long.

#11 Edited by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio
#12 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel:

If Diana's only option is to keep the baby with her at all times, then she is the most ineffectual super hero EVER. Epic Fail. Please note: her peers in the Trinity would not, have not and don't follow this line of hero practice because it isn't a hero practice.

Goal: Eliminate the threat to the baby not simply run with the baby indefinitely.

IF the baby is the focus for almost two years instead of the titles character called Wonder Woman than either the writer has failed to write her adventures or sold the audience on the fact that WW is not the true star. Either way, this is sad and horrible for any lead character.

A hero does not save someone from danger by joining them in perpetual flight from danger.

That's like a cop protecting an innocent bystander by keeping the bystander with the cop for months on end-- Not the cop's job or full time purpose. And said cop would be fired for bad decision making skills.

#13 Edited by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: You're underestimating who shes facing; literally the gods themselves. I doubt you could hide someone or something from Apollo or Hermes. As for eliminating the threat, shes working on it. And I don't get the complain that she doesn't get enough 'screen time' or focus. What do you people want, more pages of her talking to herself, narrating her every move?

#14 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel:

Why would I be underestimating her opponents? You do realize that Wonder Woman has been dealing with gods for over 6 decades. This ain't the characters first rodeo. If the best she can do is duck and dodge, then she needs to get in kind behind the helpless damsels whom she used to inspire.

Rationalizing a here's ability to overcome extreme odds and triumph decidedly in a situation doesn't make the travesty any better.

You hit the nail on the hide-- why would an embodiment of truth hide or run from anyone or thing. Pre-new 52 WW would have found a way to neutralize the threat. By your line of reasoning, Superman could never beat Darkseid, the Fantastic Four could never beat Galactus, Batman could never defeat any superhuman, etc. Reason: the big bad guy is just too powerful.

You accept that Wonder Woman is incapable of rising decisively against the odds and having the wisdom to resolve the baby problem without hitting something or killing someone.

This character would not have survived her debut in the golden age to be here today with that line of thinking.

As for the time in her own book- she should be afforded as much find as her peers in the same league get in their own books where they are not babysitting or fighting the same main threat for over two years unresolved while dragging a baby into one danger after another. This book is about a baby, the gods, the New Gods and some males. Diana has no life, no loves, no goals, no mission, no proactive focus.

The baby is even the focus of the advertisement.

#15 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: Keep in mind she is younger and less experienced and dealing with the gods for the first time.

You hit the nail on the hide-- why would an embodiment of truth hide or run from anyone or thing. Pre-new 52 WW would have found a way to neutralize the threat. By your line of reasoning, Superman could never beat Darkseid, the Fantastic Four could never beat Galactus, Batman could never defeat any superhuman, etc. Reason: the big bad guy is just too powerful.

Dude, what? Being the symbol of truth doesn't mean shes an idiot. If she knows she can't beat someone head on, she'll find another way. Also, you're contradicting yourself; you want her to keep the baby safe and not run away or hide from Apollo or the FB. And don't compare her to either Superman or Batman because currently, her title is more interesting than any of theirs, one reason being she is having trouble facing her enemies and not easily overcoming them.

I haven't said or accepted that she is "incapable of rising decisively against the odds and having the wisdom to resolve the baby problem without hitting something or killing someone". I said she is working on it. I don't expect her to have a solution as soon as she got involved. I like to see her work one out.

Ill agree that the arc has been long, but it is interesting and considering everyone else is writing her as a psychotic warrior bitch and Supermans girlfriend, Im not going to complain when I get someone who is deserving of being called Wonder Woman.

#16 Posted by veronicacris (113 posts) - - Show Bio
@toplel said:

@sinisteri: Keep in mind she is younger and less experienced and dealing with the gods for the first time.

You hit the nail on the hide-- why would an embodiment of truth hide or run from anyone or thing. Pre-new 52 WW would have found a way to neutralize the threat. By your line of reasoning, Superman could never beat Darkseid, the Fantastic Four could never beat Galactus, Batman could never defeat any superhuman, etc. Reason: the big bad guy is just too powerful.

Dude, what? Being the symbol of truth doesn't mean shes an idiot. If she knows she can't beat someone head on, she'll find another way. Also, you're contradicting yourself; you want her to keep the baby safe and not run away or hide from Apollo or the FB. And don't compare her to either Superman or Batman because currently, her title is more interesting than any of theirs, one reason being she is having trouble facing her enemies and not easily overcoming them.

I haven't said or accepted that she is "incapable of rising decisively against the odds and having the wisdom to resolve the baby problem without hitting something or killing someone". I said she is working on it. I don't expect her to have a solution as soon as she got involved. I like to see her work one out.

Ill agree that the arc has been long, but it is interesting and considering everyone else is writing her as a psychotic warrior bitch and Supermans girlfriend, Im not going to complain when I get someone who is deserving of being called Wonder Woman.

I share your opinion, at least in her title she has her own motivation and is independent.

If Wonder Woman doesn't has a personal live, a love interest is because editorial said NO to Orion and WW

#17 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

I share your opinion, at least in her title she has her own motivation and is independent.

If Wonder Woman doesn't has a personal live, a love interest is because editorial said NO to Orion and WW

Azz was really working on developing a believable relationship but DC is all about big, bright and in your face crap that makes no sense in any way and appeals to superficial power level wankers who don't care for stories and want anything shiny.

#18 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Posted by Akindoodle (1021 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: What about if Zola died in all this chaos and you saw Diana becoming not just a babysitter, but a mother? You see her and Zeke growing up together; real family. All the while juggling things like work, hero stuff and relationships outside the family or enstranged members (certain absentee fathers and imprisoned grandparents). I think I'd quite like that. Great character and plot driven stories for all. Obviously it would be a very long sub-plot that would be narrated over a course of years while the main stories took place and I don't actually want Zola to die but would you like it if the story went there?

#20 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel:

She is working on saving the baby?

How is that? How do you save a baby from being chased and snatched by gods?

The last legendary child Diana saved was Donna Troy, and she didn't carry her into danger-- she left her in the hands of her mother and sisters in the safety of Paradise Island. Diana needs to keep the baby safe by finding a way to resolve the problem-- keeping the baby around her is not a solution. It means she can't solve the problem.

If Zola died and WW keeps the baby, that would make her a single mother by default. I don't want Zola dead, but I don't want to read about her countless years either. It is not her story or adventure I want to follow when I choose to read Wonder Woman.

She is a peer of Batman and Superman in public opinion and longevity, and thus comparisons will always be made. If her book and the way it is being handled is so great, why is it isolated and almost ignored in the greater DCU? And why do those boring boys have more than three times the titles than she does as well as multiple finite stories?

A romance with Orion would not be about Diana. It would be a gateway for everything you ever wanted to know about the New Gods.

Other than saving Zola and the baby, what is Wonder Woman's goal and motivation?

#21 Posted by veronicacris (113 posts) - - Show Bio

How do you know Orion and Diana romance would be about New Gods? She and him already share good similarities and differences to make work and be interesting.

#22 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: By dealing with the gods. Its clear that both Apollo and the FB want Zeke dead and there is no diplomacy to be done. She can't hide him from Apollo either. She can't leave him with a couple of snakes and a stone statue. Shes already dealt with the FB. You're saying she can't solve the problem before the story has been completed. Thats like saying Batman can't solve the case after reading half the story.

The boys have more titles because they are more popular, hence more sales. Ive been a Batman fan even before I knew a character called Wonder Woman even existed, but Ill happily admit her title is more interesting than any he has right now. If Azz tried to bring in characters from the rest of the DCU, editorial would demand he have Superman make an appearance and Im sure none of us want that happening.

I don't see how a romance with Orion would not be about her. All their interactions so far have been really good, especially lately. I love seeing the influence she has on him; we're seeing actual character development. And its believable rather than being forced.

I don't get how people miss out the fact that if the FB got the throne, Earth would be in for some shit. By keeping Zeke alive, she is working to save everyone.

#23 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel:

What Batman story has ever taken two years to tell? When has him saving anyone meant keeping said victim-a baby no less with him for two years and in his presence while he fought villains and lost the baby repeatedly? If after two years, the first story about a secondary character that's still an infant hasn't been told, something is horribly wrong.

My comments about the Amazons and Athena(love how you left her out for your point) protecting the baby was in reference to pre New 52 solution possibility. I wouldn't trust a dog with the current version of the rapist murdering Amazons.

Based on your perspective of the situation, WW can't possibly ever win. I offer that if that was the case, she should have campaigned for an alliance of Ares, Poseidon, Hades and gods in her favor or tenuous alliance to counter Appollo. That's what a diplomat does if they alone can't take on someone too powerful.

We get the pitiful picture of the rationalization that WW had to kill Ares to stop FB from becoming the god of war.

What you either don't know or fail to understand is that part of the expectation for heroes is getting the job done.

We all know Superman could snap Luthor's neck, Batman could drop Joker from a roof, or Zatanna could depower everyone to win a fight, Martian Manhunter could make everyone go to sleep to avoid confrontation, WW could stab someone in the back to hurt an enemy, the lore of comic book heroes is that that solve problems without relying on their base nature like villains would. This character has saved the day with nothing but a lasso and principals for decades, but now the writer feels she needs swords, bad ass attitude and all the powerful males she can surround herself.

WW does not need to make a move like Wolverine, Hulk, Darkseid, or anyone else to prove she is bad ass or capable of being an ordinary warrior. It's declining to do these things that let readers know this not some other character but THE WONDER WOMAN.

WW is better than that. That is why she has stood out for decades and will overcome this latest mess.

#24 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

WW does not need to make a move like Wolverine, Hulk, Darkseid, or anyone else to prove she is bad ass or capable of being an ordinary warrior. It's declining to do these things that let readers know this not some other character but THE WONDER WOMAN.

Wonder Woman's dramatic popularity with the general audience can be traced almost directly back to her Linda Carter live action tv show, just like Batman to the Adam West show. She's not successful off of her comics alone.

Does that mean she needs a film? Well she's a fictional character and no character needs a film, but it's a crime we haven't gotten one considering.

#25 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: Why are you substituting Batman in place of Wonder Woman? Batman doesn't normally deal with threats that involve immensely powerful deities and their babies.

Its pretty clear that none of the other gods would side with Diana; Apollo has most under him while Hades and Poseidon have their own agenda. What she did was still great; she kept Ares, Lennox and Orion together and it payed off when they helped her. Her killing Ares was a decision she had to make on the spot and she made the right one. FB as the God of War would have been much more powerful and she stopped him from becoming an Olympian.

Im not getting your point that heroes don't rely on their base natures. Currently, Diana is involved with the Olympians; they are known to be extremely haughty and do you think they would want to make deals with one of the many bastards of Zeus? Diana is for diplomacy first, but she will get her hands dirty if she has to and right now, she has to.

Azz has been able to put in some great moments showing her understanding and compassionate nature. Its either this, or the psychotic woman running after the superdick. Guess which one Im happy with.

#26 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Diana's was not created to be or try to be or think like Ares or Hercules.

Her nature contrasts their nature--- this is why they have almost consistently been written as her antagonists.

To make Diana the student of Ares, owe him such awe, and do what he would do which involves killing an ally for any reason is contrary to who she is-- if you know the character.

Each icon has their own elements in their respective titles-- the choice to kill is universal. The decision defines the character.

There is a reason editors don't let most iconic characters kill on purpose or as strategy, and that reason is not because anyone was waiting on Azzarello to do it.

#27 Posted by Hastalavista (361 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: I actually think that WW being Ares' student is interesting. You can see her ideas clashed with Ares' and she doubted his way. They both tried to find out what it means to be a warrior and they haven't stopped trying (at least Diana hasn't).

Azzarello's Ares is not the old Ares. More complications and self-struggling as been added to this character. Personally, I think the change is fascinating. I don't like the killing part, though.

#28 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: She does think like Ares or Hercules when it comes to being a warrior. She differs in that she would prefer diplomacy first and her compassion overrules her warrior nature. Would you have preferred if she didn't kill Ares and let the FB take his place? Or Azz should have completely avoided building up that situation? I'm looking forward to seeing how she deals with being the god of war, something she doesn't want to be. It'll be very telling about her character and I expect some great development.

When it comes to killing, Ill admit writers tend to be a little loose with her and put the 'no kill' rule aside. Johns went full retard with it by having her kill some dude in the first few issues of JL and then in the recent TW issue with her saying her rogues gallery is small because she kills and has the lasso to make it easier. Comparatively, Azz has her kill non humans and that too if the situation demands for it. I'm sure Batman and Superman wouldn't hesitate before killing centaurs either.

#29 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Good points, guys.

Since we don't really know the new 52 Amazon history, we are left to assume the full implications of Diana following Ares instead of her sisters' teachings or the reason why immortal Amazons needed to rape to have kids.

The nature of Paradise Island was to shield Amazons from the ways of man influenced by Ares and his ilk. Ares purpose to keep up and generate wars and situations unkind to females in general would be in opposition to peace.

So missing piece is why Diana would be so beholding to Ares as opposed to her Amazon heritage and worship of gods more in line with her society.

You ask if I prefer Diana let FB become god of war or it not happen. A repetitive error made by this character is making herself the solution instead of resolving the situation itself. She can't stop the baby from getting hurt so she holds it all the time or can't defeat FB if he is god of war so become god of war.

Prefer writing not putting a character in a situation if the writer has to compromise the essence of the character as opposed to demonstrating his the character overcomes obstacles while being true to their essence. Sacrificing the character for the story is never good. This new clean slate WW is a killer of dispensible allies now, rationalize it no matter how you like.

In the past-- WW has killed antagonist in extreme circumstances not allies as a calculated move. Most of her peers would find her actions questionable instead of commendable. So do I.

#30 Posted by Hastalavista (361 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: you do have a good point! Her history in new52 is too little known to us that it has caused so much confusion. I really hope maybe when WW/SM comes out we will know more about her. (DC, just please don't make it worse!)

#31 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: The Amazons needed to reproduce because, IIRC, not all of them were immortal and they took loses from fights. Still, the way they went about it was something Azz didn't do well.

There are multiple ways to write a situation where the character can act without losing their essence. You make it seem as though she continuously kills her allies when she did it once and it was necessary.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on her portrayal. I believe this version makes sense because she is younger so she still has a lot to learn, so mistakes are expected. Thanks for the nice discussion mate.

#32 Posted by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Having no choice to kill someone who is attacking you directly is reasonable, but choosing to kill a third party fighting a threat is not reasonable to most people on the side of good-- again, this is why this action is not used often or almost all in the superhero books we read. It has always been an option over the decades, and there is a reason most heroes do not elect to do it. Once the hero does, then the writer has to justify or rationalize it. Cause it is not clear to everyone who follows the events nor will they always agree that "there was no choice".

You agree with the writer, and I disagree with the writer.

I do value your well thought out opinion.

Appreciated all feedback on this thread.

#33 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@sinisteri: I enjoyed this discussion because we were discussing a character instead of feats and power levels. Looking forward to the next one.

#34 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

#35 Posted by veronicacris (113 posts) - - Show Bio

There's a phone to ask for her services or...

#36 Posted by Ghidoran (73 posts) - - Show Bio

Complaining about her lack of ability to keep the baby safe? Really? Yes, let's make it so she solves every problem in a matter of seconds. THAT'LL be an interesting story, right guys?

#37 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

@ghidoran:

So how many years do you think is reasonable to resolve the baby plot point?