#1 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

Just interested. I mean I would get it if it happened sometimes, but nearly always WW is portrayed as a complete B-word in most JL or Supes and Bats elseworlds. Either that or niave. I mean Superman is always given a good reason, landed in The Ukraine, Joker killed Lois, but WW who in her normal incarnation is supposed to be a diplomat and paragon of peace, is always just played up as vacuous warrior with a heart of stone. Anyone who reads WW own comics, even Azzerrelo´s which I don´t like, realizes that compassion is at the heart of the character. I wish more elseworlds explored this. Because they are sometimes more popular to casual comic readers than the individual publications and they paint a rather distant, cold, inhumane view of Diana for no reason.

#2 Edited by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

Just interested. I mean I would get it if it happened sometimes, but nearly always WW is portrayed as a complete B-word in most JL or Supes and Bats elseworlds. Either that or niave. I mean Superman is always given a good reason, landed in The Ukraine, Joker killed Lois, but WW who in her normal incarnation is supposed to be a diplomat and paragon of peace, is always just played up as vacuous warrior with a heart of stone. Anyone who reads WW own comics, even Azzerrelo´s which I don´t like, realizes that compassion is at the heart of the character. I wish more elseworlds explored this. Because they are sometimes more popular to casual comic readers than the individual publications and they paint a rather distant, cold, inhumane view of Diana for no reason.

This is a good question. I suspect that a lot of writers make the same assumptions about women that I've encountered on these forums many times: that in order to be a strong, independent woman she must be a violent, man-hating bitch. Only those that actually learn about the character (i.e. the writers of her monthly comic) learn what is really at the heart of her message. That's why I'm looking forward to Grant Morrison's take - he seems to have really delved into the character.

#3 Edited by Sinisteri (550 posts) - - Show Bio

Because people who don't get her beyond a female superhero fail to see what makes her unique. It's not just being a female superman or warrior woman or mythological stereotype.

She is the heart of DC. Not hardened and bitter, but healthy and vibrant and life giving.

#4 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

Because people who don't get her beyond a female superhero fail to see what makes her unique. It's not just being a female superman or warrior woman or mythological stereotype.

She is the heart of DC. Not hardened and bitter, but healthy and vibrant and life giving.

I like that alot.

@dmessmer said:

@jphulk26 said:

Just interested. I mean I would get it if it happened sometimes, but nearly always WW is portrayed as a complete B-word in most JL or Supes and Bats elseworlds. Either that or niave. I mean Superman is always given a good reason, landed in The Ukraine, Joker killed Lois, but WW who in her normal incarnation is supposed to be a diplomat and paragon of peace, is always just played up as vacuous warrior with a heart of stone. Anyone who reads WW own comics, even Azzerrelo´s which I don´t like, realizes that compassion is at the heart of the character. I wish more elseworlds explored this. Because they are sometimes more popular to casual comic readers than the individual publications and they paint a rather distant, cold, inhumane view of Diana for no reason.

This is a good question. I suspect that a lot of writers make the same assumptions about women that I've encountered on these forums many times: that in order to be a strong, independent woman she must be a violent, man-hating bitch. Only those that actually learn about the character (i.e. the writers of her monthly comic) learn what is really at the heart of her message. That's why I'm looking forward to Grant Morrison's take - he seems to have really delved into the character.

Me too. I hope he doesn´t screw it up.

#5 Posted by batpala (339 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh god this is what upsets me to the max and why I rarely read elseworld comics anymore. And also it's like how Donna Troy was the heart of The Teen Titans [original], Wonder Woman, her elder sister is the heart of DC in full and the fact that they dismiss that so they can have her act completely out of character so she can be a foil for the boys is really frustrating and upsetting. I can't speak eloquently right now about this, but it's frustrating. Wonder Woman is what got me into comics in the first place and to see that she's now playing second place to the boys, yeah. That ain't okay in my books.

#6 Edited by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

Writers have a hard time writing a balanced loving, compassionate and warrior character, so they ignore the first 2 and make her a gung ho warrior woman. Mark Waid admitted and apologized for it after Kingdom Come. Worst thing is, this characterization of hers is coming into canon with the new 52 JL and DC aint even sorry.

#7 Edited by darknightspideyfanboy (1266 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel: wait really i love that version of her(kingdom come)

#8 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Because she does not have a dick that execs in DC can ride or wank like they do Bats, and to a lesser extent, Supes.

#9 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@darknightspideyfanboy: I dont know what to say. She was really OOC in it and was used as a stepping stone for Superman.

#10 Edited by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@batpala said:

Oh god this is what upsets me to the max and why I rarely read elseworld comics anymore. And also it's like how Donna Troy was the heart of The Teen Titans [original], Wonder Woman, her elder sister is the heart of DC in full and the fact that they dismiss that so they can have her act completely out of character so she can be a foil for the boys is really frustrating and upsetting. I can't speak eloquently right now about this, but it's frustrating. Wonder Woman is what got me into comics in the first place and to see that she's now playing second place to the boys, yeah. That ain't okay in my books.

It's only because they sell more. Although she's always been second fiddle to Supes and Bats. DC really does need to do a better job at marketing her as a character. I think a movie would do a lot of good.

#11 Posted by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel said:

@darknightspideyfanboy: I dont know what to say. She was really OOC in it and was used as a stepping stone for Superman.

She was out of character for a reason though. Not the best one, but at least it was explained in story.

#12 Posted by toplel (917 posts) - - Show Bio

@decoyelite: Yeah, Waid is cool like that. At least he gave a reason, though highly unbelievable, for her actions. And he later apologized. Now, DC seem to act like this is what shes supposed to be.

#13 Posted by Outside_85 (9054 posts) - - Show Bio

Only exception I can immediately think of was the Absolute Power story in Superman/Batman, where Diana was still a hero while Bats and Supes were world dictators. Sure she died in a rather annoying fashion, but her killing of Batman forced the people behind the scene to hit the reset button.

#14 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@toplel: wait really i love that version of her(kingdom come)

She´s cool in Kingdom Come, but I think she once again comes off as the asshole out of the Trinity. She completely tries to manipulate the situation to benefit her position amidst the Amazons. I like her cause she badass in the comic and its just a really good story. Mark Waid however has the least reason to apologize out of all the writers. To be honest the worst travesty is Flashpoint Movie, and, Injustice. Why can´t she be the hero of one of these stories for once?

Only exception I can immediately think of was the Absolute Power story in Superman/Batman, where Diana was still a hero while Bats and Supes were world dictators. Sure she died in a rather annoying fashion, but her killing of Batman forced the people behind the scene to hit the reset button.

I´d love to read that. I´ll check it out. Is she a main character or just a side character again?

#15 Posted by Hastalavista (361 posts) - - Show Bio
#16 Posted by DecoyElite (4019 posts) - - Show Bio
#17 Posted by Hastalavista (361 posts) - - Show Bio
#18 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

In an ensemble, they need the "wolverine" character, and that always get pushed on the military-themed Diana, so she becomes the hyper violent one that pushes the "real" stars of the book—Supes and Batman (but mostly Batman)—to step in and set her straight. Kingdom Come is the main thing I'm thinking of here, but you get echoes of that in other books including the JLA titles.

It does happen to Superman as well (e.g., Red Son Superman, Dark Knight Returns, to a lesser extent Kingdom Come), but these portrayals are more forgiving toward him and usually follow an arc toward redemption.

It's this reason that I usually prefer Wonder Woman in her solo titles. She's best when she's not being forced into a predetermined role in a larger ensemble.

#19 Posted by Hastalavista (361 posts) - - Show Bio

I wish I could read more comics similar to JLA: A league of one, where she's interpreted as herself but not a sacrifice to the arc.

#20 Posted by GWHH (576 posts) - - Show Bio

She so good at heart. It's nice to sure her in reverse. I for one can never see her as bad. So it nice to have them put her in evil mode and see what happens.

#21 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe it's because the idea of exploring her dark side works best using alternate realities.

#22 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@gwhh said:

She so good at heart. It's nice to sure her in reverse. I for one can never see her as bad. So it nice to have them put her in evil mode and see what happens.

But its everytime. Not a few times. Everytime.

Lets say Superman is 60% of the time

Batman is 10% of the time made a villain

Wonder Woman is 99.9% of the time made a villain.

I don´t mind seeing another side to the character either, but they should show her as noble as well. The only one where I saw her as good was Justice League Frontier, all others she´s practically always evil in a way that doesn´t even make sense to her core beliefs. She just inexplicably becomes evil with no rhyme or reason.

#23 Posted by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio

I've always viewed WW as a distant, cold, inhuman, man-hater and that's why I prefer Kara-L [×]

#24 Posted by Outside_85 (9054 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@outside_85 said:

Only exception I can immediately think of was the Absolute Power story in Superman/Batman, where Diana was still a hero while Bats and Supes were world dictators. Sure she died in a rather annoying fashion, but her killing of Batman forced the people behind the scene to hit the reset button.

I´d love to read that. I´ll check it out. Is she a main character or just a side character again?

I would say she's a side character, because it's really the story about Superman and Batman, Diana is just one of a number of 'random disruptive elements' that's helping bring the two back to who they really are.

#25 Edited by Hastalavista (361 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th: why would you see her this way?

#26 Edited by Celineness (134 posts) - - Show Bio

I think it's because she walks an extremely fine line between the love/compassion and the "pro-death penalty" sides of her nature. It's an easy solution in elseworlds books to paint her as having fallen on the bad side of that line following some personal loss or bitter experience, and once she's gone that way it's not easy for her to come back.

It helps to keep her in-character by contrasting her with her Amazon sisters as the least bloodthirsty and extreme of all of them, like she possesses a fragment of humanity mixed in with the rest of her that other Amazons (including her mother) lack. Setting her up beside the more brash Power Girl or any female "bruiser" villain ever is also an easy way to show her warmer side.

#27 Posted by MartianManhunterIsBetterThanCyborg (2243 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th said:

I've always viewed WW as a distant, cold, inhuman, man-hater and that's why I prefer Kara-L [×]

When has she ever acted like that in actual continuity?

#28 Posted by Bogey (946 posts) - - Show Bio

Wonder Woman is ideologically based so it's rather easy to make her evil.

#29 Posted by RustyRoy (12772 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg said:

In an ensemble, they need the "wolverine" character, and that always get pushed on the military-themed Diana, so she becomes the hyper violent one that pushes the "real" stars of the book—Supes and Batman (but mostly Batman)—to step in and set her straight. Kingdom Come is the main thing I'm thinking of here, but you get echoes of that in other books including the JLA titles.

It does happen to Superman as well (e.g., Red Son Superman, Dark Knight Returns, to a lesser extent Kingdom Come), but these portrayals are more forgiving toward him and usually follow an arc toward redemption.

It's this reason that I usually prefer Wonder Woman in her solo titles. She's best when she's not being forced into a predetermined role in a larger ensemble.

It would make more sense if they make Batman, Lobo, Deathstroke or Aquaman more like Wolverine, they are already have similarities with Wolverine but Wonder Woman is nothing like Wolverine, she represents Peace and Truth, she doesn't hate men, Amazons do, that's what sets her apart from other Amazonians, writers like Johns,the 2 Millars etc don't get her, they always give her goddess complex, they can't see past the Amazons hate Men and thus are evil and WW is the evilest of all point.

#30 Edited by DwightSpitz (567 posts) - - Show Bio

Because nobody listens to a female diplomat.

#31 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

@rustyroy said:

@fodigg said:

In an ensemble, they need the "wolverine" character, and that always get pushed on the military-themed Diana, so she becomes the hyper violent one that pushes the "real" stars of the book—Supes and Batman (but mostly Batman)—to step in and set her straight. Kingdom Come is the main thing I'm thinking of here, but you get echoes of that in other books including the JLA titles.

It does happen to Superman as well (e.g., Red Son Superman, Dark Knight Returns, to a lesser extent Kingdom Come), but these portrayals are more forgiving toward him and usually follow an arc toward redemption.

It's this reason that I usually prefer Wonder Woman in her solo titles. She's best when she's not being forced into a predetermined role in a larger ensemble.

It would make more sense if they make Batman, Lobo, Deathstroke or Aquaman more like Wolverine, they are already have similarities with Wolverine but …

Aquaman does get that treatment sometimes, but usually only when he's treated as the "Sixth Ranger". I think they want one of the trinity to be the big tough. Why don't they do that with Batman? I dunno, I think he's supposed to be the good guy who handles the out of control supers. (Again, my perspective is largely influenced by Kingdom Come and other arcs may not fit that so well.)

Wonder Woman is nothing like Wolverine, she represents Peace and Truth, she doesn't hate men, Amazons do, that's what sets her apart from other Amazonians, writers like Johns,the 2 Millars etc don't get her, they always give her goddess complex, they can't see past the Amazons hate Men and thus are evil and WW is the evilest of all point.

I agree that a lot of writers don't know what to do with the Amazon thing. If you write Wonder Woman as a straw-feminist or man-hater then you just don't get the character. I don't even think the Paradise Island Amazons should fit that stereotype, but I can at least there see the value of providing a straw for Wonder Woman to call out and distance herself from, which is what I think Azzarello is doing in his current run.

#32 Posted by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio

@martianmanhunterisbetterthancy: @hastalavista:

I view her like that because I have never read any of her material. All I've seen from WW are the animated movies, the cartoons, and/or video games.

I think she's always made into a villain because most people who are not very familiar with her, view her as being one bad day away from being EVIL. [×]

#33 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th said:

@martianmanhunterisbetterthancy: @hastalavista:

I view her like that because I have never read any of her material. All I've seen from WW are the animated movies, the cartoons, and/or video games.

I think she's always made into a villain because most people who are not very familiar with her, view her as being one bad day away from being EVIL. [×]

Thats what i mean. hardly what lynda carter was though. you should read the circle by gail simone or ruckas run. you´ll see why i´m upset.

#34 Posted by MartianManhunterIsBetterThanCyborg (2243 posts) - - Show Bio

@m3th said:

@martianmanhunterisbetterthancy: @hastalavista:

I view her like that because I have never read any of her material. All I've seen from WW are the animated movies, the cartoons, and/or video games.

I think she's always made into a villain because most people who are not very familiar with her, view her as being one bad day away from being EVIL. [×]

Well even in a lot of media she's presented as a caring figure, so I'm not sure where the conclusion comes from.