@scorpio_cassadine: @gokuwarrior:
@scorpio_cassadine: Expressing my opinion doesn't come at anyone else's expense. I'm not saying my opinion is right and anyone else's is wrong. Coming from a position of ostensible power doesn't make any of my opinions authoritative, definitive or any less subjective. I'm not a moderator of the Wonder Woman forum anyway; character boards aren't assigned specific mods. I've just been caught up in this discussion for the last couple of days.
@gokuwarrior: I'm not putting the First Born on a pedestal; I'm not saying he's the greatest villain ever, or even that he's the greatest DC or Wonder Woman villain ever. I'm saying it's silly to clamor for Diana's traditional rogues on the justification that the First Born is allegedly bland, when the rest of that lot are virtually mockeries of DC's rich tradition of great villains. I neglected to address that generalization mainly because I'm losing interest in this discussion, but I have some time now. When you say the First Born is "just like every other emo character", which characters are you talking about, exactly? And how are they comparable to the First Born's situation except in the (undoubtedly, judging from what you've said so far) most bare-bones manner imaginable? "Emo" is such a tired, pointless descriptor. I don't know why people still use it in 2013. The truth is that I could write a justification for any villain as a great character if I felt like it. I could write a couple of paragraphs illustrating why Cheetah is the greatest thing since Don Corleone if I felt like it. I wouldn't believe a word of it, but I could do it. Drumming characters up is easy. Drumming them down to a bare description that's pretty much just the most basic representation of the character, ignoring everything else about them? That's much, much easier. I could describe the Joker as an emo loser who runs around killing things because the world was mean to him. I could describe Lex Luthor as a racist farm boy. I could describe Cyborg Superman as the most emo character in the history of characters. None of those descriptions would do justice to the villains in question.
CIT Bane to be quite fair you are not just commenting you´re inciting people to say stupid things by insulting characters they love. It is quite a blatant misuse of your power. Because if I come on and say something you perceive as insulting you then start trying to tell me that i need to check my behavior. You are trolling wonder woman fans clearly, as I said I do not go to Green Lantern forums and start insulting the character. I especially wouldn´t if I was a moderator on the site.
As for this statement about Cheetah being bland and Wonder Woman villains being bland if you wish to have an intelligent conversation about have an intelligent conversation rather than a heated one, you need to first accept the premise tha your opponent is right and then break down their argument using reason rather than insults.
I will admit for the last two days I have been guilty of the same crime. So lets get into it properly.
I have said that Cheetah, Circe, Veronica Cale, ARES, ALKYONE, Genocide, The Crow Children, The Gorgan Sisters, Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison, and even The Baroness Von Gunther and Max Lord all have potential to be great villains. I have said they have shown glimmers of greatness that need to be developed and that their is nothing inherently awful or irredemeble about the characters in themselves.
You seem to be suggesting that all these characters should be just scrapped and no attempt should be made to give them a revamp. That´s your position right?
I put it to you that a general rule of superheroes is that we modernize their origin, while not changing it. Generally when writers approach a superhero, their orgin is kept intact but modernized so as to relate to new generations. Most superheroes including Green Lantern, Flash, Superman and Batman have all had this done.
However with great supervillains there´s a difference writers are able to re-imagine them depending on the story they are telling about the superhero. That for me is the fun in supervillains. We don´t have to stick to one origin it is just their motivation and general the general essence of the characters mythology that needs to stay intact.
Thats why their have been multiple origins of The Joker, Lex Luthor, Reverse Flash and the list goes on.
As I´ve stated many times I think the first mistake of WW rogues is having the wrong villiains as her poster child.
Cheetah is a one way ticket to her villians being dismissed, so is Baroness Von Gunther. This does not make them bad villians just misused.
Cheetah is akin to The Lizard or Killer Crock in Wonder Womans Rogues. Now I´m sure you wouldn´t say Killer Croc is an inherently bad villian. In fact even though his iconography is quite silly, he´s generally seen as a fan favorite. Same with The Man Bat. Animal based villains are not a good idea to front your rogues. But again what has made Killer Croc enduring is how you can shift around his origin sometimes making him suffer from skin condition, other times going more into the idea of him being part Croc. Again like most Batman villains he mirrors Batman by being a child of tragedy, who has let that Tragedy send into dark streets of criminality.
Cheetah mirrors Wonder Woman in that she is a child of myth. African mythology in this case and her ultimate tragedy is that she has let her search for power and immortality make her into a slave and avatar of the gods. Now she hungers for flesh and death and she hates herself for being a slave to her power as opposed to wonder woman who is emancipated, admired and beautiful because of her gifts from the Gods. That is a very natural relationship to the hero and one that could be played with in various ways.
It is not just a simple story of her being a Warecheetah, there´s depth and layers to that story that reflects the heroes journey. That is what a good villian does.
Now I haven´t began to write Cheetah, but I already came up with some notes on how I might introduce her. This is just to give you an example of how her mythology could be improved and she could be made a more symapthetic figure.
Barbera Mounerva is sick, she´s very sick in the last stages of cancer. A brilliant Archeologist only in her early 30s, her illness is tragic indeed. When the island of The Amazons is revealed to the world and she realizes they are immortal, she takes one last trip to Themyscira in hope to find a key to their immortality. On the grapevine she´s heard of some special purple potion the amazons use that she thinks may be behind their eternal youth. However, when she arrives on the Island, Hippolyta and the throne is under seige by Alkyone, the greatest Amazon warrior who has taken over over Themyscira turning it into a police state in hope that she can lure Diana back by threatening to execute the Queen and her most beloved Amazons. Alkyone, with the aid of Circe has managed to precure an ancient mystical blade, from west africa. it is said to hold a great curse with in it that will grant who ever stabs themselves with it immortality and great power, but will also make that person a slave and avatar to the African God Of Blood (or whatever) hungering for flesh as an offering to the God. Alkyone tricks Barbera in to using the knife on herself, by only telling her about the immortality and fabulous power she will gain, but not that she will be a slave to the Gods who cursed the knife. She does it and becomes the spirit of the Cheetah transforming into a hideos Warebeast. In the second film Circe would use her magic to further trick Cheetah into believing that Diana was somehow responsible for what she´s become.
Now this has not been majorly thought out. It was just some broad strokes ideas and I don´t consider myself the best writer, but the point is this goes to show how maluable Cheetah´s mythology is. As said before she could only be introduced into a film after a very successful first installment and may best be left to animated series, but she can work well as a secondary villain.
Supervillians are as good as their story is maluable and can fit into and mirror the heroes journey. All of the villians I mentioned and the ones I´ve left out is specifically because these Wonder Woman villains fulfill that need. Therefore are great villians.
In so far as The FIRST BORN as you´ve explained fits that need for New 52 Wonder Woman, maybe he will turn out to be a valuable member of WW rogues that ought to be updated. However that does not mean her previous villians ought to be ignored.
Also a big problem with First Born is that he´s clearly a gimick based villian, like The Top or The Prancster or The Cheetah, as opposed to Lex Luthor or Alkyone, but he his name gives nothing away about his Gimick. A good gimick based villain should tell you everything in a name. As bad as you might say Cheetah is, much like the Joker she does what she says on the tin. That already makes her a very good gimick based villian.
I also wrote this on wonder womans villains if any of you are interested:
I think any great rogues gallery need to have a theme, and, WW rogues have great and very psychological theme which makes them potentially very mature villains. In what you can do with them.
Is there a theme To Wonder Womans Villians?
So, I was on another discussion board and someone was saying that WW has an issue because her villains don´t thematically connect to her. For instance they were saying if you think about it, Batmans villains are connected by being twisted psychological versions of himself. They are usually born out of tragedy, but for whatever reason choose to go the other way from Bruce, and are therefore reflections of what he must fight against becoming. Totally agreed, and Batman certainly has some of the greatest villains ever written.
Now on to Superman, apparently his theme was Brains Vs Brawn. Now I didn´t even understand this one as a theme. How is that a theme even? I mean most of Supermans greatest villains are more brute strength. I mean his major 3, Darkseid, Lex Luthor and Braniac are all brain vs brawn to some degree, but what about Doomsday or Bizzarro. So I wasn´t sure what was meant by that. My answer to that are Supermans villians are defined by be corrupted by something that makes them far superior to average humans. It could be intellect, strength, god like abilities, etc. They are Gods like superman, but instead of being champions for good are corrupted by their seperation to humanity and corrupted absolutely. Again a great theme.
So now on to Wonder Woman, Whats the theme? I have to say at first I scratched my head. I´m a defender of everything pre new 52 Wonder Woman, especially her villains. In fact I would go as far as to say she had potentially one of the greatest villains set for powerhouses in the DC universe. This is because coming up for villians for human or less powerful protaganists is easier. I mean compare trying to make a villain for man with God like powers, as opposed to a human with a really cool car. I assure you one will stomp you and the other is quite easy. Her villains for me are more interesting and diverse than Green Lantern or Flash, and they aren´t anywhere near as corny as people think they are. I even think they´re to some extent cooler than Supermans. I mean I love Lex and Braniac, but for me I get much more excited by the prospect of writing Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison, Ares, Alkyone, Veronica Cale or The Crow Children. All have this great twisted quality to them. Its also a real challenge trying to work out how they can mess with Diana. I´ve also always said these characters are under written, there is nothing inherently wrong with the concept. Infact I thought the only mistake is that Cheetah is seen as her archenemy; now I love Cheetah, she has really grown on me since I first got into Wonder Woman; I have to admit I thought she was pretty weak at first, but then it clicked and I think she´s fantastic. The only problem is she´s not a good face for WW rogues, if you´re trying to have her taken seriously. You need a character that more connects with WW and can be a foil for her emotionally, psychologically as well as physically. One that anyone can look at and think, OK they´re totally mirror who the hero is and they´re badass. My candidates for the future of WW, who should be the posterboys and girls of her villains, Dr. Psycho, Alkyone, Ares.
But I digress, as I was saying this question really stomped me. I mean what is theme connecting Dr. Psycho and Ares, and if there isn´t one is that the problem with Wonder Woman? I am so fed up of all the excuses with Wonder Woman, I could literally get really mad at the next person who says something about her bathing suit costume, or invisible jet. Its just all idiotic. But I had to say wow, for a question by a detractor this was a good one.
So I got to thinking, as I´m writing a Wonder Woman script, what connects the Wonder Woman villains I want to use in my 3 part story. There must be something unique about this set that appeals to me. A single thread that I see woven through her story. Just like Spider-Man fights mutant hybrids of animal and man, science experiments gone wrong or Daredevil fights corruption and fear, what is it about Wonder Woman and her colorful rogues that does it for me. Then it dawned on me and I figured it out. There is a thread and please tell me if I´m wrong. Two things connect most of WW best villains: it´s the classic story of Ancient Warrior vs Mystics and Magicians, but set in the modern world. Think Ares, Cheetah, Alkyone, The Gorgans, Dr Psycho, even Venessa Cale mainly uses mystic forces against WW, by being the brains and resources behind the demons who go after WW. But there is another theme and I think an even stronger one. WW represents Peace, her villains, nearly all revel in war, discord and destruction. These aren´t villains whose motives are to take over the world or even necessarily kill WW. These are villains who for one reason or another just enjoy the very notion of inflicting pain and suffering on humanity, exciting panic, or just plunging the world backwards into all out war. Ares of course is the ultimate expression of that, but everyone from Cheetah to Alkyone to Dr. Psycho on a smaller scale all enjoy the same devastation. Now for me that is a pretty badass and a unique theme, I think born out of her introduction during the 1940s and her origins connection to fighting Nazism. They were seen as chaotic nihilists, so this came to be a theme amongst her most enduring villiains. I always like these kind of villians more psychopaths, deranged and evil, they don´t want the throne, they just want death and to watch the world crumble. I love that not one of her villains has the obvious motive of taking over the world or money. The last theme and this is where I out did myself, cause I really searched. The last thing is Diana´s love of self and inner confidence being the object of obsession. Yes Obsession is a major theme amongst Diana´s villains. Due to lack of self-love for one reason or another, Diana´s almost natural and instinctive love of self and compassion for others, which they see gives her such great freedom, sends the dark monsters of her world into a jealous and obsessive frenzy. If you read the DSM V5 (statistical and diagnostic manual for mental disorders) Eachone of Diana´s villains correspond to some perversion of the love instinct)
Some Background
Cheetah - Suffers clearly from Manic Depression on a deadly scale. Her highs and lows of self hate, and, self agrandizement, due to the curse that both gives her power but also enslaves her manifests in an unhealthy fixation on her protagonists.
Alkyone - Erotomania - This is the obsessive mental illness suffered by stalkers. Alkyone is really a masterpiece of a villain. People don´t realize quite how sick this puppy is. Basically Alkyone is a stalker, her love object is Hippolyta who she clearly believes should be with her. When Hippolyta gave her the duty to guard her, Alkyone translated that in her head as "she loves me too." these poor sick creatures are not mad though. Absolutely not, rather they are incredibly cunning and can logically work out ways to possess the object of their love. This relationship always ends in one way death of the love object or death of of the obsessor, usually by suicided. Alkyone saw Diana as a threat to the love connection between herself and Hippolyta and therefore concocted a fantasy she convinced the amazons of, of Diana being a demon. So snake like and powerfully deceptive that she even convinced her fellow Amazons to help her commit infanticide. Alkyone is basically a superpowered version of the villian in misery. Great villian and if you done a single class in psychopathology you´d realize just how twisted she is and how twisted she could become.
Ares - Psychopath. Sadist. No empathy. No concsience, Manipulative, liar, shallowness of affect, glib charm, sees everything outside him as an object of manipulation. Yet he admires Wonder Woman, she is the only one he does not see as an object. It is the tail of beauty and the beast in another modern and terrifying guise. Does Ares maybe actually love Diana?
Dr. Psycho - Yet another erotomaniac in the list. A stalker of the most dangerous variety. Fixated with a public figure who is far out of their station in life. Usually failed, unattractive, lonely narcissists with, little or no social skills. The only way to have their "love object" notice them is by hurting, intimidating or violently attacking those around them. The more their love object rejects them the more lethal their attention becomes toward them. That is Dr. Psycho and Wonder Woman in a nutshell. Again for me if you accept that, then you have a fascinating relationship, completely unique in comics. Which is why I think Dr. Psycho actually works.
Dr. Poison - Psychopath, sexual sadist - Torture is the game here, plain and simple. Like Ares no empathy or feeling for their victims. They are mere objects and playthings in the world of their violator. No emotion, no humor, mid to high IQ, poor social skills, unable to properly exist in a group. Dr. Poison serial killer and sexual sadist, poison is the weapon.
I could go on, but hopefully you´ve got the point. What I love here about these collection of characters is that they suffer from real dangerous psychological and obsessive pathologies, but they are caught in this mythic world. Writers need to start thinking of wonder womans villians less as mythic creatures and more as people. Then they will be able to do much more with them.
Simple Breakdown
Dr Psycho, is in love with Diana, because he hates himself; his warped love for her, and hatred of everything else drives his acts of madness. Cheetah, again, obsessed with Dianas freedom as she is a slave to the curse that has made her the Cheetah, where as Diana´s gifts make her free. Veronica Cale, obsessed with Wonder Woman, because she thinks she hasn´t worked to become WW, its just been given to her. Dr. Cyber, literally so obsessed with Diana´s beauty she wants her face, so she can plaster it to hers. Ares obsessed with the contradictions in Diana´s philosophy, and showing her those contradictions. Alkyone, some weird almost psychopathic obsession with Diana´s mother, and her wish Diana was her child. The list goes on. Again I think this maybe a theme unique to Diana´s rogues. I mean there is alot of obsession in Batman, but its a different type of obsession. Most Batman villains obsession comes from hate of the Batman or wanting to one up him. Diana´s rogues seem to have admiration, jealousy and ultimately different shades of perverted love for the character, resulting in obsession.
So what do you think, have I cracked it?
Are the themes I´ve mentioned wrong?
Maybe theres something I´m missing?
Let me know.
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