#101 Posted by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio
#102 Posted by divingfalcon713 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@gokuwarrior said:

you better go out of your bubble,there are many people on this site that hate this run,powerwoman,me,evil,scorpion,pokeysteve,ancient_of_day,sinisteri,hulk26,donnafan,,celineness,press oblivion,goddessa,etc and let's not forget that comic vine isn't the only forum on the internet,so yes,many,many people hate azzarello's run.

Since I'm not in a bubble, it's hard to come out of one. Perhaps you should come out of yours for some fresh air?

And still, as we've seen on the leave/stay thread, your army of hate is still quite small compared to the like camp. Btw are you still trying convince people this series is a commercial flop? Because I seem to remember proving the opposite just yesterday.

The series isn't technically a flop, but it's not setting the world on fire either. All Azzarello has managed to do is swap out one set of fans for another. He's driven away Wonder Woman's core followers and replaced them with you guys. That's the only reason our "army of hate" is so small, most of the soldiers no longer read the comic or participate in the forums.

The most famous Wonder Woman fan is arguably Carol Strick, and I haven't seen a post from her in more than a year. That's okay though, because we have several past Wonder Woman creators and industry professionals flying our flag and supporting our cause.

That should be enough to let you know, that while the story may be good for you, it's not good for Wonder Woman, or her most ardent fans.

I feel like we should stop saying labelling the most ardent WW fans based on what books they do or don't like. Disagreements are all well and good, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's actually really insulting when people essentially say that some readers "aren't real WW fans" because of a difference of opinion.

#103 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@outside_85 said:

@gokuwarrior said:

you better go out of your bubble,there are many people on this site that hate this run,powerwoman,me,evil,scorpion,pokeysteve,ancient_of_day,sinisteri,hulk26,donnafan,,celineness,press oblivion,goddessa,etc and let's not forget that comic vine isn't the only forum on the internet,so yes,many,many people hate azzarello's run.

Since I'm not in a bubble, it's hard to come out of one. Perhaps you should come out of yours for some fresh air?

And still, as we've seen on the leave/stay thread, your army of hate is still quite small compared to the like camp. Btw are you still trying convince people this series is a commercial flop? Because I seem to remember proving the opposite just yesterday.

The series isn't technically a flop, but it's not setting the world on fire either. All Azzarello has managed to do is swap out one set of fans for another. He's driven away Wonder Woman's core followers and replaced them with you guys. That's the only reason our "army of hate" is so small, most of the soldiers no longer read the comic or participate in the forums.

The most famous Wonder Woman fan is arguably Carol Strick, and I haven't seen a post from her in more than a year. That's okay though, because we have several past Wonder Woman creators and industry professionals flying our flag and supporting our cause.

That should be enough to let you know, that while the story may be good for you, it's not good for Wonder Woman, or her most ardent fans.

I feel like we should stop saying labelling the most ardent WW fans based on what books they do or don't like. Disagreements are all well and good, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's actually really insulting when people essentially say that some readers "aren't real WW fans" because of a difference of opinion.

what do you want us to say?,many azzarello fans admit that this run isn't a true wonder woman run when it comes to being a super hero,they agreethat is more of a horror title,and we know wonder woman has always been an action suiper hero book not a horror novel with a never ending plot about a baby,so it actually seems that many azzarello fans aren't true wonder woman fans and usually consider perez run and ruka run to be just ok,when almost every wonder woman fan agree they are her best runs,it's true azzarello just took a big part of wonder woman's fan base away.

#104 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (808 posts) - - Show Bio

@divingfalcon713:

@divingfalcon713 said:

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@outside_85 said:

@gokuwarrior said:

you better go out of your bubble,there are many people on this site that hate this run,powerwoman,me,evil,scorpion,pokeysteve,ancient_of_day,sinisteri,hulk26,donnafan,,celineness,press oblivion,goddessa,etc and let's not forget that comic vine isn't the only forum on the internet,so yes,many,many people hate azzarello's run.

Since I'm not in a bubble, it's hard to come out of one. Perhaps you should come out of yours for some fresh air?

And still, as we've seen on the leave/stay thread, your army of hate is still quite small compared to the like camp. Btw are you still trying convince people this series is a commercial flop? Because I seem to remember proving the opposite just yesterday.

The series isn't technically a flop, but it's not setting the world on fire either. All Azzarello has managed to do is swap out one set of fans for another. He's driven away Wonder Woman's core followers and replaced them with you guys. That's the only reason our "army of hate" is so small, most of the soldiers no longer read the comic or participate in the forums.

The most famous Wonder Woman fan is arguably Carol Strick, and I haven't seen a post from her in more than a year. That's okay though, because we have several past Wonder Woman creators and industry professionals flying our flag and supporting our cause.

That should be enough to let you know, that while the story may be good for you, it's not good for Wonder Woman, or her most ardent fans.

I feel like we should stop saying labelling the most ardent WW fans based on what books they do or don't like. Disagreements are all well and good, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's actually really insulting when people essentially say that some readers "aren't real WW fans" because of a difference of opinion.

You're not. You've accepted this current bogus interpretation that runs as fast away from Wonder Woman and her world as possible. That's understandable, it was designed to pull you in and piss us off and it's done that job admirably.

I wouldn't say that we're the "real WW fans" if so often Azzarello's didn't show such disdain for all that came before him. Many of you constantly have negative comments concerning anything prior to the New 52. The costume, the origin, the philosophies, the abilities, the villains, the storylines, the sales are all jokes to you, and they're thrown up at every available opportunity to justify Azzarello's run.

This is going to sound harsh and I'm sorry, but I don't consider this the real Wonder Woman, therefore, I don't consider you real fans. That's just one man's opinion though, you're entitled to your own.

#105 Posted by divingfalcon713 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: Just because people are fans of Azzarello's run doesn't mean they are lesser fans than the people who prefer Perez or Rucka or Simone. Rucka's run is my favorite WW arc, but I also happen to really like the New 52 WW solo book. As I said earlier, you can be a fan of whichever story you want, but it is offensive for anyone to disparage how much of a fan another person is based on which story they like. We all love the character, we just want to see different things regarding her solo book. Doesn't mean any one group of fans is superior to another.

#106 Edited by Celineness (134 posts) - - Show Bio

Azzarello's run had two things going for it when it began.

First, it brought JMS' horrific run to an end, re-introducing a Wonder Woman more recognisable to fans than the jacket-laden parody preceding her.

Second, it was timed with the New 52 reboot; so new focus, different characterisation and vague plot points were much more forgivable.

If either of these conditions hadn't existed, I think Azz's run would had been received with a lot more hate and been far shorter.

As it is, people were just on the whole relieved at the shift away from Odyssey and willing to follow the original direction Azz plotted. For a while, at least.

What's happened more recently - during roughly the past six months - is that fans have just gotten really, really, really bored. Bored with the baby. Bored with the ensemble theme. Bored with Wondie not really "owning" her own book. Bored with the glacial pace of Azz's writing, the lack of old favourite villains showing up, bored with the sword and the brutishness, bored with looking back at Rucka's (and to a lesser extent Simone's) run and thinking "oh yeah, Diana used to be like *that*, and *that* was much better than what she's like now".

If Azz had tied up the "Gods and babies" arc in a single year, then moved on to something completely different for issues 13-24 (like say, sorting out her Mother and sisters in a whole separate story focused on a New 52 Circe, fleshing out more of Diana's diplomatic and caring side) then everyone would still be generally happy and the rants would only be focused on her origin, costume and the near-elseworlds plot going on elsewhere where she's romancing Superman.

But the arc didn't tie up in a year. It's still going...and going...and...

A few years ago DC and Marvel figured out that annoying fans actually sold better than pandering to them, and they've been toying with this revelation ever since. When sales plummet, they switch back to the old formula and "fix" everything they broke, but if numbers remain solid they string out the old fanbase for as long as possible, like the writers of Heroes or LOST mindfully refusing to answer critical plot questions until they are certain they've milked the mystery, confusion and backlash for all it's worth.

Hopefully, the title falling below 40k sales a month will cause some sort of shift in editorial policy and New 52 Wonder Woman will stop emulating the JJ Star Trek movies (i.e. out with the old fans, in with - we hope - EVERYONE ELSE) but who knows. The character is still suffering from the "let's prime and package her up for a movie" effect from two years back, so taking her back to Rucka's "too confusing for TV" incarnation won't happen yet.

DC just don't know what to do with Wonder Woman right now. She's already had her "golden-age-come-again, self-aware culmination of all she's ever been" moment and so they're letting Azz tell his proto-Gaiman tale to keep her ticking over until they come up with something better. The First Born is just a part of that and when this phase of Diana's "life" is over, he'll join Genocide as a one-shot, half-remembered villain that no one really cares about.

#107 Posted by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio
#108 Edited by Celineness (134 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: That would be all well and good, but he was stopped in the latest issue and like a fool Wonder Woman let him go after killing Ares to get to him. The whole thing felt forced, overly melodramatic and unsatisfying. Instead of a climax it was just another bookmark in a never ending story.

It really should ring alarm bells for a publisher or editor when you have to string three trade paperbacks together under a single theme/title, because a single storyline has gone on for far too long.

Also, I don't understand this talk about feats and power. Diana's greatest "feats" of the past were when she stopped a fight from happening by talking down, sympathising with and converting enemies to her cause, not lifting rocks or punching robots. The way some people are talking here, she'd just smile at them like they were children playing with action figures and shake her head in tired amusement.

The problem isn't lack of feats, it's a failure to properly evoke who she fundamentally is, after such a long run in which so much more would be expected by now. The DC Trinity is Truth (Wonder Woman), Justice (Batman) and the American Way (Superman). Rucka nailed this perfectly, Azz had a lot of leeway for doing his own thing but the rot is now starting to set in and something needs to change.

#109 Edited by divingfalcon713 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine: I get that you have a negative opinion of the book, but continuing to chip away at the already wide rift between fans by saying that yourself and only those who agree with your opinion are true fans is incredibly condescending. Also, you seem to think I'm new to WW because I like the New52 story, but that's incorrect. I've read the Perez, Rucka, and Simone versions and I enjoyed them all. As you said, you are entitled to your opinion. I just expect fans of a character who preaches tolerance and equality to show some.

#110 Posted by entropy_aegis (15472 posts) - - Show Bio

If anyone read the First Born's origin issue and can't properly understand his motivations I'd consider simpler mediums of entertainment.

It's not just motivations though,he just hates things that's all he is basically.He's Wonder Woman's third attempt at Doomsday (Genocide,Devastation previously),even Doomsday himself had a great backstory but the character still sucks. The fact that Wonder Woman writers are obsessed with replicating a shitty villain such as PISDAY alone shows you the overall state of her rogues gallery.

Ares is the only good villain,the rest suck and that includes Cheetah and Circe,anyone who thinks they are good villains need to slap him/herself.

@billy_batson said:

@pokeysteve said:

@billy_batson said:

@drgnx said:

We'll this topic is about the FB's appeal! I don't find much in him, and consider this a slap in the face to WW fans that he takes up one of two spots in villains month for WW!

You say that like Wonder Woman has worthwhile villains.

BB

She does. Azz hasn't used any of them. We've only seen Cheetah (in JL) and he gave us First Born.

But Cheetah, Circe and Giganta aren't worthwhile :/

BB

Not Giganta. Azz already ruined the greatness that was Ares. Dr. Psycho, Devastation, Silver Swan when she's written well.

Then again if you don't think Cheetah and Circe are worthwhile, I'm curious what you're doing in the Wonder Woman forum to begin with.

Ares has been pretty cool in Azz's run,and I dont see how disliking Cheetah and Circe bans you from posting here,pretty sure you dont like Joker and Catwoman but that hasn't stopped you from posting on the Batman boards.

With that said I do believe Azz's run needs a new direction and better pacing,it's mediocre at this point.

Online
#111 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@outside_85 said:

@gokuwarrior said:

you better go out of your bubble,there are many people on this site that hate this run,powerwoman,me,evil,scorpion,pokeysteve,ancient_of_day,sinisteri,hulk26,donnafan,,celineness,press oblivion,goddessa,etc and let's not forget that comic vine isn't the only forum on the internet,so yes,many,many people hate azzarello's run.

Since I'm not in a bubble, it's hard to come out of one. Perhaps you should come out of yours for some fresh air?

And still, as we've seen on the leave/stay thread, your army of hate is still quite small compared to the like camp. Btw are you still trying convince people this series is a commercial flop? Because I seem to remember proving the opposite just yesterday.

The series isn't technically a flop, but it's not setting the world on fire either. All Azzarello has managed to do is swap out one set of fans for another. He's driven away Wonder Woman's core followers and replaced them with you guys. That's the only reason our "army of hate" is so small, most of the soldiers no longer read the comic or participate in the forums.

The most famous Wonder Woman fan is arguably Carol Strick, and I haven't seen a post from her in more than a year. That's okay though, because we have several past Wonder Woman creators and industry professionals flying our flag and supporting our cause.

That should be enough to let you know, that while the story may be good for you, it's not good for Wonder Woman, or her most ardent fans.

I feel like we should stop saying labelling the most ardent WW fans based on what books they do or don't like. Disagreements are all well and good, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, but it's actually really insulting when people essentially say that some readers "aren't real WW fans" because of a difference of opinion.

You aren´t technically Wonder Woman fans as in pre-new 52. I think thats what is meant. Its not an insult, its just plain and simple the truth; people who like this take on the character must have seen so many problems with ww that she needed to be completely recreated. thats what new 52´s done, so yes if you like and support this book you are not a wonder woman fan as the character has existed for 70 years. If they changed all supermans villians, his look, his attitude, his personality, his powers, his origin, his supporting cast and the planet he´s from, and people supported the new take, then they would not be real superman fans, or, pre-new 52 superman fans. Thats a fact. Not an interpretation but a fact. Now thats not to say you´re not right, that is purely subjective, maybe ww did need a massive change, maybe she didn´t, that can be debated. But Johns and Azzerrelo have changed the character to the core, johns has practically made her bitch, and villian and Azz has made her a baby sitter bimbo. Gone is the wisdom of athena, and loving heart of aphrodite, now we have a chick who would coldly "execute her rogues" like she were some mafia boss. hard to think this is the same woman who reformed Baroness Von Gunther by persuading her through talking.

#112 Edited by divingfalcon713 (285 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26: Actually, as I've mentioned, I did read and enjoy the pre New52 stories. It is possible to like both.

#113 Posted by Celineness (134 posts) - - Show Bio

I've always thought Dr. Psycho was the "best" Wonder Woman villain, simply because he is a much better way of rendering an "opposite" of her than the female bruiser types. Similar to how The Joker is a much better foil for Batman than (say) Bane.

Wonder Woman is about truth, purity of spirit, not being provoked, not being petty, twisted or tainted. Dr. Psycho is a sick, ugly manipulative rapist who rolls up everything offensive and repellent to Diana into a neat little package that's physically weaker but more devious than her.

I can never get a handle on Ares, he changes all the time. Sometimes he's Darkseid, sometimes he's Loki, other times he's Magneto and more recently he's kinda been a cross between Gaiman's Destruction and Garak from DS9.

#114 Posted by Pokeysteve (8697 posts) - - Show Bio

Not Giganta. Azz already ruined the greatness that was Ares. Dr. Psycho, Devastation, Silver Swan when she's written well.

Then again if you don't think Cheetah and Circe are worthwhile, I'm curious what you're doing in the Wonder Woman forum to begin with.

Ares has been pretty cool in Azz's run,and I dont see how disliking Cheetah and Circe bans you from posting here,pretty sure you dont like Joker and Catwoman but that hasn't stopped you from posting on the Batman boards.

With that said I do believe Azz's run needs a new direction and better pacing,it's mediocre at this point.

Ares has been cool sure but Azz completely neutralized him as a villain. I never said he should be banned from the forum. Just curious as to what he's doing here if he doesn't think two of her three greatest villains aren't worthy of their own issues. I like Joker and I hate Catwoman but they both work extremely well as Batman villains. I try to avoid the Batman boards.

Agreed.

#115 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane:

Dr Psycho better supervillain than first born. the tramp who plays the flute and feeds the pigeons outside my grocery store better supervillian than First Born.

As for Dr. Psycho, he is as much of a Joke as The Riddler or any other gimick based badguy. Simple fact is he´s as good as the writer who takes him on. Rucka again did a great job with him. He was funny, twisted, sick, just a demented and fun character. So to me he´s colorful, vile and you kind of end up liking him in way that you know your not supposed to, everything a comic villian should be. The fact he kind of loves Wonder Woman in some perverted way, is actually something I find very interesting. Its actually a trate shared by many wonder woman villains and is good because she represents the purest form of love, as her heart is blessed by Aphrodite herself. So the fact she represents pure love and her villains perverted or distorted love, makes them thematically connect with her.

Dr. Psycho has been written bad for a long time, so I get why people might think of him as a joke, but honestly most super villains sound silly until you see them in a different light. I thought he was hella silly until I saw what Rucka did with him and he soon became one of my fav WW villains.

Veronica Cale was also made really cool by Rucka. I know I get it she´s a Lex Luthor rip off. But so the hell what. She still had a real chemistry with Wonder Woman, I liked her, she was a spunky, go getter, southern bell not to be messed with.

Genocide could even be much cooler, if they took a way her weird origin, and amped her power set abit. Make her more like Ultron, give her mastery of weapons, and an ability to send opponents insane with hatred and anger. Meaning only ww can fight her because the lasso allows her to see through the delusional state she produces, thats a bad ass wonder woman villain.

I even think the First Born could be made better but at the moment, horrible name, horrible MO, just one more abomination in the adventures of Emo Woman.

This is how I would rank ww villains, the higher up they are the more movie `potential I see in them.

1. Ares

Could be an absolute beast in DC, on Darkseid level if used properly.

2. Alkyone

Amazingly original villain that so much more could be done with. I really hope one day they bring her back, she was fantastic and could be like a second archvillain with Ares.

3. Cheetah

Sertiously underrated villain, she´s deliciously wicked, and totally nuts. Love her. But she shouldn´t be WW archvillain. Thats a big problem that did need fixing.

4. Dr. Psycho

Sketchy, but can be used really well and great when he is.

5. Circe

She´s cool

6. The Gorgon Sisters

7. The Crow Children

Totally underrated villains who could have been used much better by Gail Simone. Simone´s real issue is her endings and these 5 kids had alot of potential, but she messed up the ending with their arch. I would love to write them.

8. Genocide

9. Veronica Cale

The top 3 already give Wonder Woman a better rogues gallery than 65% of superheroes, including Iron Man, Hulk, Green Lantern, arguably The Flash and Shazam (although I think they also have an underrated rogues gallery) The Punisher and the list goes on. All you need is writers to take on these villains and get them doing something special.

I would say even Giganta, Baroness Von Gunther and Dr. Cyber have masses of untapped potential. All 3 could be worked on and I love to see them turn up in an animated series of wonder woman.

By the way in two years where is wonder womans revised rogues gallery? Who are memorable villains Azzerrelo has written for her?

#116 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (808 posts) - - Show Bio

@divingfalcon713:

@divingfalcon713 said:

@scorpio_cassadine: I get that you have a negative opinion of the book, but continuing to chip away at the already wide rift between fans by saying that yourself and only those who agree with your opinion are true fans is incredibly condescending. Also, you seem to think I'm new to WW because I like the New52 story, but that's incorrect. I've read the Perez, Rucka, and Simone versions and I enjoyed them all. As you said, you are entitled to your opinion. I just expect fans of a character who preaches tolerance and equality to show some.

That's why I'm a fan, Wonder Woman exemplifies the qualities I wish I possessed. As for the rift you speak of, it's already so wide, I don't think my chips matter all that much. At this point it's not just a difference in taste in storylines, it's a difference in philosophy.

While I'm loathe to bring up the sexist implications in Azzzarello's run and open up a whole new can of worms, those accusations are very real. I feel that if you're willing to ignore them, in favor of a long winded story you like, to the detriment of Wonder Woman as a character, you weren't really a Wonder Woman fan in the first place. And consequently, it doesn't matter how many past runs you've purchased, read or enjoyed. The ideals behind them didn't stick.

#117 Posted by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@divingfalcon713:

@divingfalcon713 said:

@scorpio_cassadine: I get that you have a negative opinion of the book, but continuing to chip away at the already wide rift between fans by saying that yourself and only those who agree with your opinion are true fans is incredibly condescending. Also, you seem to think I'm new to WW because I like the New52 story, but that's incorrect. I've read the Perez, Rucka, and Simone versions and I enjoyed them all. As you said, you are entitled to your opinion. I just expect fans of a character who preaches tolerance and equality to show some.

That's why I'm a fan, Wonder Woman exemplifies the qualities I wish I possessed. As for the rift you speak of, it's already so wide, I don't think my chips matter all that much. At this point it's not just a difference in taste in storylines, it's a difference in philosophy.

While I'm loathe to bring up the sexist implications in Azzzarello's run and open up a whole new can of worms, those accusations are very real. I feel that if you're willing to ignore them, in favor of a long winded story you like, to the detriment of Wonder Woman as a character, you weren't really a Wonder Woman fan in the first place. And consequently, it doesn't matter how many past runs you've purchased, read or enjoyed. The ideals behind them didn't stick.

Sorry but I have to agree with this statement. Even Azzerrelo admited he didn´t like wonder woman before, so clearly what he´s written is in direct conflict with the ideas and ideals wonder woman stands for. yes, there are some very very superficial similarities between pre52 ww and new 52 ww, but nearly everything important of what Marstons revolutionary and radical"Heroes Journey Myth" turned on its head by giving it a female protagonist, has been lost by Azzerrelo, to the point that basically she could be supergirl, black canary or any other female who hasn´t captured the worlds imagination. I can say this almost for certain, if Azzerrelo´s wonder woman origin was the one used in the 40s during her first publication, wonder woman would be a mere footnote in the history and development of comics. She would not have survived, its just to generic, Zeus´s daughter, and so? so hercules, and everyother demigod story. And if the lasso of truth and invisible jets are apparently so silly, how do you find wonder woman being pricked by a feather giving her her ability to fly not the most rediculous way anyone has ever got powers in the history of comics. that´s like Flash´s original water based origin stupid. anyway i´ll leave this now.

#118 Posted by Ancient_0f_Days (12430 posts) - - Show Bio

The series isn't technically a flop, but it's not setting the world on fire either. All Azzarello has managed to do is swap out one set of fans for another. He's driven away Wonder Woman's core followers and replaced them with you guys. That's the only reason our "army of hate" is so small, most of the soldiers no longer read the comic or participate in the forums.

The most famous Wonder Woman fan is arguably Carol Strick, and I haven't seen a post from her in more than a year. That's okay though, because we have several past Wonder Woman creators and industry professionals flying our flag and supporting our cause.

That should be enough to let you know, that while the story may be good for you, it's not good for Wonder Woman, or her most ardent fans.

THIS

#119 Edited by Ancient_0f_Days (12430 posts) - - Show Bio

Like I said, it may be a good story, but it isn't a comic book hero story...Also as for Wonder Woman villains...how many evil titans or evil gods or goddesses has she fought and killed in Pre-52 that they can't just bring back in New-52? Comic book Goddess of War anyone? Never occurred to Azzy to make something as epic as that instead of the nonsense he's giving us now....not saying he's a bad story teller, but at this point he's not showing us he can write Action Comics

#120 Edited by WhineHaus (95 posts) - - Show Bio

LOL at everyone trying to draw fandom lines. "You're not a true Wonder Woman fan, because you don't like the same stories/authors/runs I do!" Extremely presumptuous and foolish. I have yet to see one naysayer of Azzarello's run and the First Born (in this thread) try to engage in a productive, engaging conversation without being outright disrespectful, redundant, and childish.

@citizenbane: Kudos to you and your counterpoints. I couldn't agree more.

#121 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis: you say her villans suck based on what?,cheetah is a powerhouse when she is written properly,she is insane and she was searching for godly powers because she is hungry for power,cheetah's vision that the world is corrupted,that everybody is fake,wearing a mask,that humanity has no point and that the strongest live and the weak has to die,that is cheetah,and all this makes her a great villan for wonder woman.

#122 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@whinehaus:celineness,scorpion and hulk26 gave very good points right now.

#123 Posted by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio

Like I said, it may be a good story, but it isn't a comic book hero story...Also as for Wonder Woman villains...how many evil titans or evil gods or goddesses has she fought and killed in Pre-52 that they can't just bring back in New-52? Comic book Goddess of War anyone? Never occurred to Azzy to make something as epic as that instead of the nonsense he's giving us now....not saying he's a bad story teller, but at this point he's not showing us he can write Action Comics

This

#125 Posted by WhineHaus (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@whinehaus:celineness,scorpion and hulk26 gave very good points right now.

I disagree.

Disrespectful, redundant, and childish.

#126 Edited by Outside_85 (10320 posts) - - Show Bio

The series isn't technically a flop, but it's not setting the world on fire either. All Azzarello has managed to do is swap out one set of fans for another. He's driven away Wonder Woman's core followers and replaced them with you guys. That's the only reason our "army of hate" is so small, most of the soldiers no longer read the comic or participate in the forums.

The most famous Wonder Woman fan is arguably Carol Strick, and I haven't seen a post from her in more than a year. That's okay though, because we have several past Wonder Woman creators and industry professionals flying our flag and supporting our cause.

That should be enough to let you know, that while the story may be good for you, it's not good for Wonder Woman, or her most ardent fans.

Well you're clearly not very good fans then if this is all that was needed to drive you away.

Yes, you have Trina Robbins that made Diana have a hard time fighting Deathstroke and a bunch of writers who say 'we wouldn't have done it that way'.

You lot aren't ardent fans, you're just a bunch of people that's pissed off this book isn't exactly to your tastes any more.

#127 Posted by WhineHaus (95 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

The series isn't technically a flop, but it's not setting the world on fire either. All Azzarello has managed to do is swap out one set of fans for another. He's driven away Wonder Woman's core followers and replaced them with you guys. That's the only reason our "army of hate" is so small, most of the soldiers no longer read the comic or participate in the forums.

The most famous Wonder Woman fan is arguably Carol Strick, and I haven't seen a post from her in more than a year. That's okay though, because we have several past Wonder Woman creators and industry professionals flying our flag and supporting our cause.

That should be enough to let you know, that while the story may be good for you, it's not good for Wonder Woman, or her most ardent fans.

Well you're clearly not very good fans then if this is all that was needed to drive you away.

Yes, you have Trina Robbins that made Diana have a hard time fighting Deathstroke and a bunch of writers who say 'we wouldn't have done it that way'.

You lot aren't ardent fans, you're just a bunch of people that's pissed off this book isn't exactly to your tastes any more.

BINGO!

#128 Posted by PowerWoman (3576 posts) - - Show Bio

Old fans vs New fans

lol

#129 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@whinehaus:celineness,scorpion and hulk26 gave very good points right now.

I disagree.

Disrespectful, redundant, and childish.

they gave good reason,don't wanting to see is like being blind.

#130 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

The series isn't technically a flop, but it's not setting the world on fire either. All Azzarello has managed to do is swap out one set of fans for another. He's driven away Wonder Woman's core followers and replaced them with you guys. That's the only reason our "army of hate" is so small, most of the soldiers no longer read the comic or participate in the forums.

The most famous Wonder Woman fan is arguably Carol Strick, and I haven't seen a post from her in more than a year. That's okay though, because we have several past Wonder Woman creators and industry professionals flying our flag and supporting our cause.

That should be enough to let you know, that while the story may be good for you, it's not good for Wonder Woman, or her most ardent fans.

Well you're clearly not very good fans then if this is all that was needed to drive you away.

Yes, you have Trina Robbins that made Diana have a hard time fighting Deathstroke and a bunch of writers who say 'we wouldn't have done it that way'.

You lot aren't ardent fans, you're just a bunch of people that's pissed off this book isn't exactly to your tastes any more.

the deathstroke issue,2 wrongs don't make a right,so your example is irrelevant,azzarello has changed a lot of things about the character and he admited he didn't like wonder woman before,so there we go,we are fans,not of this book that is like an else world story,we are fans from wonder woman,the one we know,not what azzarello created with wonder woman's name on it.

#131 Posted by Outside_85 (10320 posts) - - Show Bio

the deathstroke issue,2 wrongs don't make a right,so your example is irrelevant,azzarello has changed a lot of things about the character and he admited he didn't like wonder woman before,so there we go,we are fans,not of this book that is like an else world story,we are fans from wonder woman,the one we know,not what azzarello created with wonder woman's name on it.

Still lying your pants off I see.

#132 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

the deathstroke issue,2 wrongs don't make a right,so your example is irrelevant,azzarello has changed a lot of things about the character and he admited he didn't like wonder woman before,so there we go,we are fans,not of this book that is like an else world story,we are fans from wonder woman,the one we know,not what azzarello created with wonder woman's name on it.

Still lying your pants off I see.

still wanting to deny the truth that azzarello changed a big part of the character's core,how can you deny the truth and be a wonder woman fan?,she represents truth.

#133 Posted by entropy_aegis (15472 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26:

Green Lanern and Shazam have Black Adam and Sinestro,come back when Wondy get's a villain even 5% as cool as those guys,Flash has one of the best rogues of them all,even Hulk has some good villains. Comparing losers like Cale,Swan and whatever to Black Adam is an insult,even Aquaman has better villains than Wonder Woman,Manta and Orm ftw.

@entropy_aegis: you say her villans suck based on what?,cheetah is a powerhouse when she is written properly,she is insane and she was searching for godly powers because she is hungry for power,cheetah's vision that the world is corrupted,that everybody is fake,wearing a mask,that humanity has no point and that the strongest live and the weak has to die,that is cheetah,and all this makes her a great villan for wonder woman.

That sounds a lot like...hmm that sounds an awful lot like the 90% villains that citizenbane stated,sorry but nothing in your post made me care for Cheetah,not your fault though,I've read plenty of her and I still couldn't e bothered to like her.

Online
#134 Posted by Outside_85 (10320 posts) - - Show Bio

still wanting to deny the truth that azzarello changed a big part of the character's core,how can you deny the truth and be a wonder woman fan?,she represents truth.

See thats the funny thing about you people who claim to be die-hard WW fans (and usually with 20+ years of reading as if anyone cared), she represents tolerance, peace and truth, three things that you most certainly arent representing.

And I am not the guy who persistently lies about sales and then misreads whats being written to suit my personal agenda.

And where has Diana's core been changed? (I am not expecting a decent answer, because thats another thing about you people, you can't justify or prove most of your claims)

#135 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26:

Green Lanern and Shazam have Black Adam and Sinestro,come back when Wondy get's a villain even 5% as cool as those guys,Flash has one of the best rogues of them all,even Hulk has some good villains. Comparing losers like Cale,Swan and whatever to Black Adam is an insult,even Aquaman has better villains than Wonder Woman,Manta and Orm ftw.
@gokuwarrior said:

@entropy_aegis: you say her villans suck based on what?,cheetah is a powerhouse when she is written properly,she is insane and she was searching for godly powers because she is hungry for power,cheetah's vision that the world is corrupted,that everybody is fake,wearing a mask,that humanity has no point and that the strongest live and the weak has to die,that is cheetah,and all this makes her a great villan for wonder woman.

That sounds a lot like...hmm that sounds an awful lot like the 90% villains that citizenbane stated,sorry but nothing in your post made me care for Cheetah,not your fault though,I've read plenty of her and I still couldn't e bothered to like her.

oh and i could say that the villans you named aren't cool for me,why do you even bother to talk about this if at the end,you saying her villans suck is a subjective oppinion?,the reason why cheetah is a great villan for her is because she is like the antithesis of wonder woman,wonder woman represents the truth,the hearth and soul,love,kindess,understanding,no prejudice,cheetah is insane and hates society while wonder woman wants to help it,cheetah wants to destroy it because she has no hope in humanity while wonder woman has hope in it,cheetah thinks that the world is just for the powerful ones,wonder woman stands for equality and wants a world for everybody,cheetah searched for godly power as a respond to her greed and desire to be superior to that human world that she thinks is fake and doesn't want to belong to that world,wonder woman in the other hand is almost a god and acts like a human and her powers are just a tool to help others never something to put herself above people,if you think this doesn't make cheetah a great villan for wonder woman then you really didn't understand cheetah's character or you have a different oppinin about what makes a great villan.

#136 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@gokuwarrior said:

the deathstroke issue,2 wrongs don't make a right,so your example is irrelevant,azzarello has changed a lot of things about the character and he admited he didn't like wonder woman before,so there we go,we are fans,not of this book that is like an else world story,we are fans from wonder woman,the one we know,not what azzarello created with wonder woman's name on it.

Still lying your pants off I see.

Dude I like many Cerials, especially Golden Grahams, if I bought Golden Grahams and found Corn Flakes in them id be upset, they could be the most delicious Corn Flakes in the world but I´d probably rather slightly less than fresh Golden Grahams. If they canned my cerial all together, refused to make it from honey and instead made them white choclate, I think it would be within my right to stop supporting Gold Grahams with my hard earned cash.

This chick in this new 52 crappy emo woman, not wonder woman, its Hercule Clone Woman. So no if you think its ok that DC is trying to change what people have developed about the character for the last 70 years you are not a fan of wonder woman. Its that simple. New 52 WW is not the old WW and therefore is not WW. Even in bad runs I don´t like, I read it and I´m like thats bad but its still wonder woman. Even in injustice gods among us the evil wondy pisses me off, but the good wondy was wonder woman. I recognize that as much as the use of her pissed me off. but New 52 wonder woman in my mind is even worse than Odysessy. It really is. I can at least read that again, it has some good moments. I would probably even use the Talking Cat again, I thought she was kinda cool, but the core of that character was more like wonder woman than this version by miles. WW isn´t the only to suffer MOS superman is the next in a line of victims of superheroes with perfectly fine stories destroyed because a bunch loud mouths who´ve never read a comic of his say they don´t get him, and they are louder than the hundred of thousands or millions of fans who love him as is. they´ve now completely recked superman in live action and I think New 52 supes has followed suit.

#134 Posted by Outside_85 (5562 posts) - 15 minutes, 4 seconds ago - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

still wanting to deny the truth that azzarello changed a big part of the character's core,how can you deny the truth and be a wonder woman fan?,she represents truth.

See thats the funny thing about you people who claim to be die-hard WW fans (and usually with 20+ years of reading as if anyone cared), she represents tolerance, peace and truth, three things that you most certainly arent representing.

And I am not the guy who persistently lies about sales and then misreads whats being written to suit my personal agenda.

And where has Diana's core been changed? (I am not expecting a decent answer, because thats another thing about you people, you can't justify or prove most of your claims)

Please don´t call us you people, I still am at a loss as to how us saying you aren´t pre-new52 wonder woman fans is an insult. Its bizarre, you can take me not liking what you like as an insult. please explain. for instance I like the star trek movies, if a hardcore star trek fan said they are not faithful to the ideas underlying star trek and therefore i´m not a real star trek fan i´d understand. and what abrhams did to star trek is no where near what azz has done to wonder woman.

#137 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

still wanting to deny the truth that azzarello changed a big part of the character's core,how can you deny the truth and be a wonder woman fan?,she represents truth.

See thats the funny thing about you people who claim to be die-hard WW fans (and usually with 20+ years of reading as if anyone cared), she represents tolerance, peace and truth, three things that you most certainly arent representing.

And I am not the guy who persistently lies about sales and then misreads whats being written to suit my personal agenda.

And where has Diana's core been changed? (I am not expecting a decent answer, because thats another thing about you people, you can't justify or prove most of your claims)

i have tolerance,you can think whatever you want i'm not trying to force you to think the way i do and me calling this run a flop is based on the fact that sells less and less every issue and isn't as successful as previous runs,so get your facts right.

azzarello changed the core of the character,the amazons,the villans,her personality,she would have never stabbed somebody to defeat an opponent like she did in azz run,she would have never hurt eris or orion to make a point about how she must be respected,she doesn't show to have true goals besides protectng the baby and always fail at it,talk about peace and then act like a mafia boss punching people around for not respecting her,she used to talk things out,derstroying her unique origin to make her the female hercules,making her incompetent,most of the time she can't defence herself alone and that baby would be dead if it wan't for all the other characters around,she can't complete any task alone,etc,etc.

#138 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26 said:

@outside_85 said:

@gokuwarrior said:

the deathstroke issue,2 wrongs don't make a right,so your example is irrelevant,azzarello has changed a lot of things about the character and he admited he didn't like wonder woman before,so there we go,we are fans,not of this book that is like an else world story,we are fans from wonder woman,the one we know,not what azzarello created with wonder woman's name on it.

Still lying your pants off I see.

Dude I like many Cerials, especially Golden Grahams, if I bought Golden Grahams and found Corn Flakes in them id be upset, they could be the most delicious Corn Flakes in the world but I´d probably rather slightly less than fresh Golden Grahams. If they canned my cerial all together, refused to make it from honey and instead made them white choclate, I think it would be within my right to stop supporting Gold Grahams with my hard earned cash.

This chick in this new 52 crappy emo woman, not wonder woman, its Hercule Clone Woman. So no if you think its ok that DC is trying to change what people have developed about the character for the last 70 years you are not a fan of wonder woman. Its that simple. New 52 WW is not the old WW and therefore is not WW. Even in bad runs I don´t like, I read it and I´m like thats bad but its still wonder woman. Even in injustice gods among us the evil wondy pisses me off, but the good wondy was wonder woman. I recognize that as much as the use of her pissed me off. but New 52 wonder woman in my mind is even worse than Odysessy. It really is. I can at least read that again, it has some good moments. I would probably even use the Talking Cat again, I thought she was kinda cool, but the core of that character was more like wonder woman than this version by miles. WW isn´t the only to suffer MOS superman is the next in a line of victims of superheroes with perfectly fine stories destroyed because a bunch loud mouths who´ve never read a comic of his say they don´t get him, and they are louder than the hundred of thousands or millions of fans who love him as is. they´ve now completely recked superman in live action and I think New 52 supes has followed suit.

funny how they say we don't give valid points,guess only what they think is valid and the rest is trash,the coversation with these users can't really go far because they are just bias,bias about whast they think is cool or not,about what determinates a great villan and how wonder woman hasn't any,it's always according to them,to how they see it,how they can't get them,can't get this or that,so if it's all based on subjective things,what is the point?.

#139 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@jphulk26:

Green Lanern and Shazam have Black Adam and Sinestro,come back when Wondy get's a villain even 5% as cool as those guys,Flash has one of the best rogues of them all,even Hulk has some good villains. Comparing losers like Cale,Swan and whatever to Black Adam is an insult,even Aquaman has better villains than Wonder Woman,Manta and Orm ftw.
@gokuwarrior said:

@entropy_aegis: you say her villans suck based on what?,cheetah is a powerhouse when she is written properly,she is insane and she was searching for godly powers because she is hungry for power,cheetah's vision that the world is corrupted,that everybody is fake,wearing a mask,that humanity has no point and that the strongest live and the weak has to die,that is cheetah,and all this makes her a great villan for wonder woman.

That sounds a lot like...hmm that sounds an awful lot like the 90% villains that citizenbane stated,sorry but nothing in your post made me care for Cheetah,not your fault though,I've read plenty of her and I still couldn't e bothered to like her.

OK, Ares if written properly has technopathy, feeds off the psychic energies of war, and can raise the dead. Super Strength, Speed, Durability, Immortality. Sinestro and Green Lanter are overrated as hell. I love Shazam and Black Adam, Mr. Mind. All those are seriously cool, but sorry Sinestro and Green Lantern are garbage. Why people are fascinated by Green Lantern is beyond me, the most stupid, boring, generic superhero of all time. Sure Sinestro is ok, but sorry a guy with a yellow ring powered by fear, that makes yellow light objects, has silly villianous mistache to twiddle, and a vaguely camp looking demeaner is really unoriginal. Green lantern is where he is now not because sinestro is inherently cool or a great villain, but becaiuse Johns pushed him and did some amazing stories with the character. Ares as a basic concept if far far cooler than Sinestro. In fact any villain who is just a boring mirror image of the protagonist loses points in my book. The relationship between hero and archvillain should be much more. i rate characters like Braniac, Joker, Lex Luthor, Magneto and yes Ares as much better archvillains than characters who just have enemy which is just a different color pallet version of themselves. same powers, same costume, its just really boring and obvious. Reverse Flash, Sinestro, Zod, all for me are medicre. Black Adam is slightly cooler than villains that fall into that box, but still I´d take the God Of War over any of these Black Adam. Much better archvillain, if they want him to be, he just needs to be written properly. It makes much more sense and the relationship is very cool between WW and him, but not enough has been made of their emnity. They should be up there in the greatest acrhvillians easily if someone would write a proper modern story with Pre-New 52 wondy and ares where they actually have the battle they deserve.

Wonder Woman animated movie scratched the surface of how cool wonder woman can be in live action, Green Lantern tried its best but the movies have all been trash compared to WW animated film, including that Ryan Renaulds piece of rubbish. When Wondy finally gets a movie and Ares is badass in it, everyone is gonna jump on the bandwagon about how they were always defending him as a great archvillain.

Everyone else on the Justice League including Martian Manhunter, John Stewart and Aquaman from Superfriends. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The Green Lantern Hal Jordon

#140 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@jphulk26:cheetah is also a great villan when she is written properly,she is a powerhouse,and the reason why cheetah is a great villan for wonder woman is because she is like the antithesis of wonder woman,wonder woman represents the truth,the hearth and soul,love,kindess,understanding,no prejudice,cheetah is insane and hates society while wonder woman wants to help it,cheetah wants to destroy it because she has no hope in humanity while wonder woman has hope in it,cheetah thinks that the world is just for the powerful ones,wonder woman stands for equality and wants a world for everybody,cheetah searched for godly power as a respond to her greed and desire to be superior to that human world that she thinks is fake and doesn't want to belong to that world,wonder woman in the other hand is almost a god and acts like a human and her powers are just a tool to help others never something to put herself above people,if you think this doesn't make cheetah a great villan for wonder woman then you really didn't understand cheetah's character or you have a different oppinin about what makes a great villan.

#141 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (808 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85 said:

@gokuwarrior said:

still wanting to deny the truth that azzarello changed a big part of the character's core,how can you deny the truth and be a wonder woman fan?,she represents truth.

See thats the funny thing about you people who claim to be die-hard WW fans (and usually with 20+ years of reading as if anyone cared), she represents tolerance, peace and truth, three things that you most certainly arent representing.

And I am not the guy who persistently lies about sales and then misreads whats being written to suit my personal agenda.

And where has Diana's core been changed? (I am not expecting a decent answer, because thats another thing about you people, you can't justify or prove most of your claims)

It's 6:00am, it's been a long night, so you're going to have to forgive this cut and paste on how WW's core has changed.

@dmessmer said:

I agree with @gokuwarrior - there is a lot of sexism in Azzarello's run. And I say this even though I liked the first half of the run, and don't hate the second half.

Since I know that any time anyone levels charges of sexism on these boards it tends to get people riled up for some reason, let me just start by saying that I don't think that these comics are horrible or evil, or that Azzarello and/or his readers are bad people for writing/reading them (I read them, myself). There have actually been several aspects of the run that I would applaud, especially the artwork, which has never devolved into cheesecake and has depicted Wonder Woman as both strong and feminine - something comics needs a lot more of.

However, there are some aspects of his run that are problematic. For instance:

  1. The first time Wonder Woman appeared she was naked for the first several panels for no apparent reason. There is no reason that she had to be in bed when Zola appeared, and no reason that she has to sleep without any clothes on. It's not as bad as issue #1 of Catwoman, but it does raise the question of why DC feels the need to introduce two of its female solo books with the characters unclothed.
  2. The change to Wonder Woman's origin wasn't inherently sexist, but dedicating the first major story arc to the revelation that a Goddess (Hera) and a powerful Queen of an all-female society (Hippolyta) would spend their time fighting over a man (Zeus) belittles them as strong, independent characters.
  3. The changes to the Amazons were needless and took a long running theme of the Wonder Woman character - the beauty and harmony of a society of women - and turned it into a group of spiteful, lying, man-raping baby killers. That's pretty damned sexist.
  4. On that same note, the existence of the Amazons was another strong aspect of the feminist elements of the character - the notion that women can take strength from each other without the need for a man. Robbing Wonder Woman of that, then surrounding her with a male supporting cast, undoes all of that. I realize, of course, that she has Hera and Zola, but...
  5. Hera and Zola are weak and utterly helpless, while the male supporting characters are almost as powerful as Wonder Woman herself. That's a serious imbalance. Add to that that of all the characters vying for Zeus's throne in the first 12 issues, Hera was the only woman, and was the only one who suffers long term punishment (in the form of losing her powers - the only other characters to suffer long term ramifications were the Amazons) as a result of her actions, even though she probably had the most logical claim to the throne.
  6. Arguably the only story arc that really featured Wonder Woman front and center was also one in which she was Hades was essentially trying to rape her (I know there was never any overt sex, but the notion of a woman being forced to marry someone against her will is a pretty transparent metaphor). For the record, I thought that was one of the best story arcs of the series, but I'd like to see Azzarello make Wonder Woman the star of the book without feeling the need to victimize her.
  7. Having Wonder Woman kiss Orion could be taken a few different ways, but I found it problematic that, of all the ways she could respond to him and his offensive behavior, Azzarello decided that she would on some level reward him with a kiss. Seriously, how many women in the real world would respond to someone being a jerk by making out with him? The only real explanation for it is that it allowed DC to put the kiss on the cover and thus sell Wonder Woman via sex appeal (because apparently all the covers with her kissing Superman aren't enough).
  8. This has already been commented on at length, but the very fact that Wonder Woman feels like a supporting character in her own book shows an overall lack of respect for her as a powerful and compelling character in her own right. For the past several issues Lennox, Orion, Apollo, Hermes, and The Firstborn have all, arguably, been more important/central to the story than Wonder Woman has been, and, surprise, surprise, they are all male.

While I disagree with the cheesecake aspect of dmessmer's post and the gripe about nudity, everything else was right on the money. This is not the same character. Her ideals and history have been flipped upside down for the sake of a single, cynical, long @$$ sexist story.

#142 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@jphulk26:cheetah is also a great villan when she is written properly,she is a powerhouse,and the reason why cheetah is a great villan for wonder woman is because she is like the antithesis of wonder woman,wonder woman represents the truth,the hearth and soul,love,kindess,understanding,no prejudice,cheetah is insane and hates society while wonder woman wants to help it,cheetah wants to destroy it because she has no hope in humanity while wonder woman has hope in it,cheetah thinks that the world is just for the powerful ones,wonder woman stands for equality and wants a world for everybody,cheetah searched for godly power as a respond to her greed and desire to be superior to that human world that she thinks is fake and doesn't want to belong to that world,wonder woman in the other hand is almost a god and acts like a human and her powers are just a tool to help others never something to put herself above people,if you think this doesn't make cheetah a great villan for wonder woman then you really didn't understand cheetah's character or you have a different oppinin about what makes a great villan.

I agree with you. I like Cheetah, but i don´t think she is a good villain for being a poster child for wonder woman. I mean you know what I think. I think Cheetah is far better than Sinestro. I mean I like Flashes villains, but I see no reason someone who says WW villains are silly would not think that Flashes are silly as well. I mean sorry The God Of War and Cheetah are just as weird as Captain Colsd and Captain Boomerang. Its so stupid people don´t get just cause a character is written well doesn´t make them inherently good. I could come up with a villain, call him "Dinomite" or Professor Terror and if you write them well they can work. Its how a character is written that makes them good or not. But what gets me about Ares is peopla actually try and say he´s a bad villain. thats just plain stupid. I really think you have to have -20 imagination if you can´t see how sick a villain Ares can be if he was written properly. The desire to spread war, suffering, and hatred as far as possible, to manipulate people so as to propogate something as destructive and nihilistic as war is a very heartless motivation. You make Ares Suave, Manipulative and master strategist then you´ve got right there a SICK, relevant and likeable villain. Also, he´d be much more releant than most villains because he connects with something very real and threatening. to me the problem started with Perez, I love his wondere woman and his Ares but he killed his momentum in pre 52 wonder woman by having him see the error of his ways and making him way too powerful. If you leveled him out a little and make his plan to start world war 3 not be lets get the whole world to nuke eachother, something more original and dastadly, and just make him a straight out anarchist who doesn´t care about ruling Olympus then he´d be much better. He needs to be a suaver version of The Joker who just wants to see the world burn, civilisation crumble and humans suffer, simply because they are beneath him and conflict feeds him. Make him just enjoy showing Diana how fickle and evil humans are by fanning the flames of hate where ever he sees it.

#143 Edited by entropy_aegis (15472 posts) - - Show Bio

This is hilarious,"Sinestro sucks,Zoom sucks,Zod sucks,Adam sucks" but Cheetah,is awesome,Circe is awesome,Psycho is awesome LOL LOL LOL.

How much imagination does it take to create a character that is named after a cheetah,looks like a cheetah,has the same base power as a cheetah,and happens to be a carnivore...not much really. It's funny how WW fans here are complaining about originality when her own rogues gallery is incredibly derivative. We have Doomsday ripoffs in Devastation,First Born and Genocide and a Mad Hatter ripoff in Dr Psycho,a mythological character in Ares,a Lex Luthor ripoff in Cale and some lousy sorceress.

Online
#144 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (808 posts) - - Show Bio

This is hilarious,"Sinestro sucks,Zoom sucks,Zod sucks,Adam sucks" but Cheetah,is awesome,Circe is awesome,Psycho is awesome LOL LOL LOL.

See what I mean about Azzarello fans and their jokes? If he didn't create it, it's not good enough for them.

#145 Posted by entropy_aegis (15472 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

This is hilarious,"Sinestro sucks,Zoom sucks,Zod sucks,Adam sucks" but Cheetah,is awesome,Circe is awesome,Psycho is awesome LOL LOL LOL.

See what I mean about Azzarello fans and their jokes? If he didn't create it, it's not good enough for them.

Yeah except Sinestro,Adam,Zod etc were not created by Azz.

Here I'll make it simple for WW fans,First Born is a lousy villain in a rogues gallery of lousy villains. Saying First Born sucks while Psycho/Circe rocks is plain stupid.

Online
#146 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (808 posts) - - Show Bio

Speaking of plain stupid...

#147 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@entropy_aegis said:

@scorpio_cassadine said:
@entropy_aegis said:

This is hilarious,"Sinestro sucks,Zoom sucks,Zod sucks,Adam sucks" but Cheetah,is awesome,Circe is awesome,Psycho is awesome LOL LOL LOL.

See what I mean about Azzarello fans and their jokes? If he didn't create it, it's not good enough for them.

Yeah except Sinestro,Adam,Zod etc were not created by Azz.

Here I'll make it simple for WW fans,First Born is a lousy villain in a rogues gallery of lousy villains. Saying First Born sucks while Psycho/Circe rocks is plain stupid.

You tell me what is so good about the concept of Sinestro. Not something that he´s done, because I could write a chapter of Wonder Woman where Ares kills Superman. You can write a character to do anything. What is good about the actual concept.

Also I like professor zoom and Black Adam. What I don´t like is when archvillains just literally have the exact same powers and look as the character they are facing. It is boring. I don´t mean that you can´t write them to make them really good, but rather that when you get villains like Superman vs Lex Luthor or Braniac, or Batman Vs Joker, Spawn Vs Clown, Captain America Vs Red Skull, Professor X Vs Magneto and yes Wonder Woman Vs Ares, its more interesting for me. Because what makes them archvillian isn´t just the are a character who is just some inverted version of the superhero, it is because psychologically, philosophically and in there very iconography they are something so opposed to the hero, so challenging to everything the hero believes in that they seem connected. They make eachother pure archetypes.

Now I haven´t said Sinestro hasn´t had good stories; its true he´s had better stories than Ares, but as an archvillain he is of the garden variety anyone can think of that kind. Oh our hero is a human chosen by advanced aliens to wield a weapon powered by will, which allows him to think of anything he wishes and is only limited by imagination. Sinestro, oh lets see, he´s another green lantern just yellow and powered by fear, (yellow being Green Lanterns weakness). Um, sorry an invisible or stealth jet is dumb, but a superhero whose weakness is yellow thats awesome. If Geoff Johns, who practically the head of writing staff now hadn´t totally revamped all the characters and written a great arch for Green Lantern, nobody would care about Sinestro. He literally got made in the early 2000s in terms of being seen as a great villain. If you went back to the 90s and told anyone Sinestro was a great villian, they would have laughed there ass off. Just like before "52" the comic no one really thought Black Adam was that great. It was their revamped origin that was great.

So again the question stands how in the hell is Sinestro essentially a good character, like The Joker is? How, not things he´s done but the basic concept.

And calling Ares AND CIRCE as a concept bad is pure stupidity, so I suppose Ancient Greek literature that has captured the imagination of people for around 3000 years and the character Ares God Of War which has been used in countless different mediums to great affect sucks, but a yellow man named Sinestro is more awesome as a concept. Lets see maybe Zues sucks as well, how about Hera, Circe whose villainy goes way beyond comics and is beloved in the Odysessy, hey even Medusa and all ancient Greek Literature is boring and the characters are no way as good as Sinestro. Sinestro most badass concept ever. THATS RIGHT GREEN LANTERN WHOSE FILM AND ANIMATED SERIES WERE CRITICALLY PANNED HIS GREATEST VILLIAN CONCEPTUALLY IS BETTER THAN PROBABLY TWO OF THE MOST ENDURING CHARACTERS IN MYTHOLOGY, SARCASM.

#148 Posted by Saren (25133 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane:you say her villans suck based on what?,cheetah is a powerhouse when she is written properly,she is insane and she was searching for godly powers because she is hungry for power,cheetah's vision that the world is corrupted,that everybody is fake,weaing a mask that humanity has no point and that the strongest live and the weak has to die,that is cheetah,and all this makes her a great villan for wonder woman,

Her villains suck based on the fact that the vast majority of them are little more than agglomerations of various tired cliches and tropes twined together to make characters. Cheetah is insane? Wow, that's unique. She's hungry for power? No villain has ever had that motivation before! Oh wait, that's 98% of them. The idea that humanity is pointless and everyone represses their true nature? I liked that better when it was Joker's "one bad day" theory. Or any of the other hundred times villains have had that idea. The strong must live and the weak must die? If there ever was a Generic Supervillain Rulebook, that would probably be Rule #1 with how often that idea is played out. None of that makes Cheetah a great villain. It's overdone nonsense that serves to gloss over the fact that most of the time, Cheetah's personality consists of little more than "Everything sucks and I gotsta kill it! Slashity slash!"

and can easily be used in a movie as the main villan,and please don't blame her villans for the fsct that she hasn't a movie yet,

Making Cheetah the villain in a Wonder Woman movie is a great way to ensure that Wonder Woman never gets a movie again.

Stick with Ares. He's the only decent character in that entire bunch.

90% of the movies with female characters in the lead role have flopped,only resident evil and kill bill were successful,so it's obious a problem of the industry,they still don't know how to do good movies with strong females as the main characters.

Gross exaggeration, as usual. Aliens, Tomb Raider, The Hunger Games, Underworld, The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and Scream are all successful franchises with strong female leads. Selling a female lead is harder than selling a male lead, sure, but that's not the biggest obstacle to a Wonder Woman film. The biggest obstacle is that a superhero film requires a supervillain, and Wonder Woman has one of the worst rogues' galleries in the medium.

Now before I reply to anyone else, I want to veer back on topic and explain my take on the First Born. I see people complaining about the First Born being a "brute" and a "brick" and all sorts of complaints about his powerset of all things, and I don't know if it's just because (neither do I want to assume so or make that generalization) Wonder Woman fans have become accustomed to mediocre villains for so long that powersets are the criteria they use to make these distinctions between good villains and bad villains, but for the life of me I cannot understand why what a villain can do with his fists is the standard by which he should be judged.

There's an early episode of Luther where Idris Elba's eponymous character remarks that "the thing about little boys is, they worship their dads like gods. The more invisible he is, the more arbitrary in his punishments and rewards, the more they crave his approval". What Luther left out was the two-pronged extension to that principle: the son can either learn to stop living for his father and live for himself, or the son can crave approval and never get it until that longing eventually sours to resentment. The First Born is the negative prong of that extension. He was born and then summarily rejected by Zeus. He lived among the beasts and grew up seeking acknowledgement; forget about acceptance or love, his main desire was for his father and his people to nod their heads and acknowledge that he even existed. That never happened. He was a god who was forced to live like an animal for no fault of his own, and that made him burn from within.

The first prong I mentioned, where the son can learn to stop living for his father and live for himself, isn't a course of action that was just overlooked. The First Born tried to live in peace among the animals, and for a while it worked, until his resentment over being ignored tore that away. So he decided that if the gods thought they could ignore him, he would accomplish horrors that even the gods could not ignore. He engulfed the world in war, set it on fire, turned the entire planet into his own private circle of hell.

The irony of this is that he laid waste to a world that had shown him more kindness than the gods he was trying to impress ever had; it was the world that had sheltered him and allowed him to live after his father sentenced him to death. Then he decided that if the gods were going to ignore him no matter what he did on Earth, he'd lay waste to Olympus and see if they could ignore him then. We now know how that turned out, and we now know that in the aftermath of his father crushing the last spark of hope in the First Born's heart until resentment was the only thing left in him, he had 7000 years to let that resentment ferment into hatred.

It's easy to dismiss the character as just another angry villain with daddy issues, but that would lose sight of the significance of those issues to the rest of the WW mythos. Think back to Hippolyta's fear of Hera's anger should the goddess learn whom Diana's father was. Hera's anger stems from the fact that the offspring of her husband's infidelity are allowed to live and thrive, while her own child was torn away from her and tossed aside to his death. The First Born is a more corporeal, tangible manifestation of the anger and ruination that arose from Zeus' callous, cruel decadence.

Those are the reasons I don't see the character as being another Doomsday or Genocide. He has potential. The tragedy of characters like Doomsday and Genocide is that they are wastes of time and potential. From the day they made their first appearance to the day they met their end, Doomsday and Genocide were only going to be savage, destructive monsters without any real aims. They were never going to be anything else. The tragedy of the First Born is that he didn't have to be a monster, and that the simplest of gestures would have changed the course of his life radically. Apollo remarks in the First Born's Villains Month issue that "one's nature often leads to one's downfall". Apollo's not entirely right. The First Born's downfall wasn't the result of his nature; it was the result of the nature that was forced upon him.

It's true that all that potential might ultimately go to waste and the First Born might end up being a one-off villain. Your loss, really. Everyone's free to agree or disagree, but if y'all get your way and Wonder Woman's oh-so-terrific rogues' gallery returns, I look forward to the layered, fascinating adventures of Doctor Psycho.

@jphulk26 said:

As for Dr. Psycho, he is as much of a Joke as The Riddler or any other gimick based badguy. Simple fact is he´s as good as the writer who takes him on. Rucka again did a great job with him. He was funny, twisted, sick, just a demented and fun character. So to me he´s colorful, vile and you kind of end up liking him in way that you know your not supposed to, everything a comic villian should be. The fact he kind of loves Wonder Woman in some perverted way, is actually something I find very interesting. Its actually a trate shared by many wonder woman villains and is good because she represents the purest form of love, as her heart is blessed by Aphrodite herself. So the fact she represents pure love and her villains perverted or distorted love, makes them thematically connect with her.

Dr. Psycho has been written bad for a long time, so I get why people might think of him as a joke, but honestly most super villains sound silly until you see them in a different light. I thought he was hella silly until I saw what Rucka did with him and he soon became one of my fav WW villains.

Rucka's Psycho was just as pathetic as every other version of the character, which is sort of telling since Rucka's usually the sort of writer who can make manure smell like daisies. Psycho has never been funny or colorful. He has only ever been a schlocky, campy waste of a character who just serves as an epitomization of all the inappropriately sexual vibes and themes that make villains like Chucky discomforting to watch. Or scrap that, Chucky is a better villain than Doctor Psycho. The three-foot-tall doll actually makes your skin crawl. Doctor Psycho just makes you laugh and feel sorry for him every time he tries to act threatening.

Veronica Cale was also made really cool by Rucka. I know I get it she´s a Lex Luthor rip off. But so the hell what. She still had a real chemistry with Wonder Woman, I liked her, she was a spunky, go getter, southern bell not to be messed with.

Cale was nothing special, but yeah, she was nice for a character that'll probably never be heard from again.

Genocide could even be much cooler, if they took a way her weird origin, and amped her power set abit. Make her more like Ultron, give her mastery of weapons, and an ability to send opponents insane with hatred and anger. Meaning only ww can fight her because the lasso allows her to see through the delusional state she produces, thats a bad ass wonder woman villain.

Ultron? Why? And sure, if you rework Genocide and alter the character completely, she'll be a great villain.

The top 3 already give Wonder Woman a better rogues gallery than 65% of superheroes, including Iron Man, Hulk, Green Lantern, arguably The Flash and Shazam (although I think they also have an underrated rogues gallery) The Punisher and the list goes on. All you need is writers to take on these villains and get them doing something special.

LMAO, are you serious? Iron Man and Punisher, sure, but those two don't have rogues' galleries worth mentioning. Hulk is unique in that he doesn't actually need a rogues' gallery. His greatest enemy has always been himself, and the stories that focus on the man-monster binary rank among the best Hulk stories ever told. Green Lantern? Sinestro alone is a better character than almost every Wonder Woman villain put together, save for Ares at best.

Flash? Getouttahere. Flash has one of the best rogues' galleries in comics. It's insulting to the cast of the Gem Cities to even consider contrasting them against Wonder Woman's villains.

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#149 Edited by jphulk26 (1332 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane said:

Making Cheetah the villain in a Wonder Woman movie is a great way to ensure that Wonder Woman never gets a movie again.

Stick with Ares. He's the only decent character in that entire bunch.

I haven´t read your whole post but agreed. Same goes with Circe. Thats what I mean when I say they can´t be poster childs of a wonder woman Rogues gallery. People need to be eased into her mythology. I don´t agree that they are bad villains, but they will not sell a first movie. First, the sorceress vs the superwoman was done in Supergirl and flopped the whole movie, second, Cheetah, I´ll admit before I actually read the character and just saw her, I thought she was lame as hell as an archvillain. As I said writers have made her a great character with a rich history to draw from, but no way would she handle being the main movie villain for the first Wonder Woman. Bad bad idea.

In my script I have Ares as the main bad guy. I´ve taken inspiration from Gladiator and Bourne, where Steve Trevor is Bourne and Diana a superpowered Maximus. I also took inspiration for Diana and Ares relationship from Silence of the Lambs. Diana the incorruptable Clarice, He is basically like a bad ass superpowered Hannibal Lector, getting in peoples heads, manipulating them and having an absolutely breathtakingly psychopathic disregard for human life. But there´s apart of him that trully admires wonder woman, his desire is not really to kill her, he much prefer to corrupt her. Its be delightful writing him.

I´ve also retconned Dr. Poison, he´s now a military scientist who specializes in biological and chemical weapons. He´s also pretty twisted. A serial killer who happens to be a brilliant scientist, he uses humans like Lab Rats trying to produce the most effective ways of wiping out populations with biochemical weapons. He´s now developing weapons for rogue nation Kaznia and has a mysterious connection with Ares.

And with that I´ve added a couple of Ares henchmen to Wonder Woman´s rogues. One called Thebes and another called Kaigan. Minor parts but very cool. I think this is the way to get Wonder Woman´s rogues back on track. It can be done. But a good film is essential. Get Ares and use someone like Dr. Poison as secondry, but update them and then maybe add one or two minor ones created for the film. But have Ares as the focus and don´t kill him off. I´ll read the rest of your post and answer it. But good point.

Part 2: Just read your whole post and I get it. I´m thinking conceptually about characters rather than what they´ve been. I´m talking about having seen sparks of brilliance as opposed to fully developed potential when I´m saying these characters are good.

You have to understand I´m thinking about it from a writers perspective and to me I just am overflowing with ideas for wonder woman rogues which of course its impossible for you to know.But I really think I could breath new life into Dr. Psycho, or Alkyone, or Dr. Poison, even First Born. If I could sit down and think I´m sure I could work an idea for how The First born could fit great into WW mythology.

So you´re right, I love Flashes rogues, but alot of people just see them and think they´re goofy but I´ve always defended Flash. He´s one of my favorite characters. Shazam is in my top 5. I love his mythology.

However when it comes down to it, there are glimmers of brilliance I see in Dr. Psycho, especially when he was made a psychitrist. I even thought of a back story that properly explains him getting his powers and also made him a terrifying mind rapist almost. Thats really how I see him, he doesn´t just get in your head, he more violates people when inside their head. He´s not irredeamable in the slightest, but as he is now. I would say correct not great, he´s only shown glimmers of greatness and he has actually made me laugh or done some sick things when in peoples heads, so he could defo work, especially as a secondary villain. but maybe we have a very different sense of humor. :)

First Born is pretty pitiful as well right now though.

#150 Posted by entropy_aegis (15472 posts) - - Show Bio

...

@jphulk26 said:

@entropy_aegis said:

@scorpio_cassadine said:
@entropy_aegis said:

This is hilarious,"Sinestro sucks,Zoom sucks,Zod sucks,Adam sucks" but Cheetah,is awesome,Circe is awesome,Psycho is awesome LOL LOL LOL.

See what I mean about Azzarello fans and their jokes? If he didn't create it, it's not good enough for them.

Yeah except Sinestro,Adam,Zod etc were not created by Azz.

Here I'll make it simple for WW fans,First Born is a lousy villain in a rogues gallery of lousy villains. Saying First Born sucks while Psycho/Circe rocks is plain stupid.

You tell me what is so good about the concept of Sinestro. Not something that he´s done, because I could write a chapter of Wonder Woman where Ares kills Superman. You can write a character to do anything. What is good about the actual concept.

Also I like professor zoom and Black Adam. What I don´t like is when archvillains just literally have the exact same powers and look as the character they are facing. It is boring. I don´t mean that you can´t write them to make them really good, but rather that when you get villains like Superman vs Lex Luthor or Braniac, or Batman Vs Joker, Spawn Vs Clown, Captain America Vs Red Skull, Professor X Vs Magneto and yes Wonder Woman Vs Ares, its more interesting for me. Because what makes them archvillian isn´t just the are a character who is just some inverted version of the superhero, it is because psychologically, philosophically and in there very iconography they are something so opposed to the hero, so challenging to everything the hero believes in that they seem connected. They make eachother pure archetypes.

Now I haven´t said Sinestro hasn´t had good stories; its true he´s had better stories than Ares, but as an archvillain he is of the garden variety anyone can think of that kind. Oh our hero is a human chosen by advanced aliens to wield a weapon powered by will, which allows him to think of anything he wishes and is only limited by imagination. Sinestro, oh lets see, he´s another green lantern just yellow and powered by fear, (yellow being Green Lanterns weakness). Um, sorry an invisible or stealth jet is dumb, but a superhero whose weakness is yellow thats awesome. If Geoff Johns, who practically the head of writing staff now hadn´t totally revamped all the characters and written a great arch for Green Lantern, nobody would care about Sinestro. He literally got made in the early 2000s in terms of being seen as a great villain. If you went back to the 90s and told anyone Sinestro was a great villian, they would have laughed there ass off. Just like before "52" the comic no one really thought Black Adam was that great. It was their revamped origin that was great.

So again the question stands how in the hell is Sinestro essentially a good character, like The Joker is? How, not things he´s done but the basic concept.

And calling Ares AND CIRCE as a concept bad is pure stupidity, so I suppose Ancient Greek literature that has captured the imagination of people for around 3000 years and the character Ares God Of War which has been used in countless different mediums to great affect sucks, but a yellow man named Sinestro is more awesome as a concept. Lets see maybe Zues sucks as well, how about Hera, Circe whose villainy goes way beyond comics and is beloved in the Odysessy, hey even Medusa and all ancient Greek Literature is boring and the characters are no way as good as Sinestro. Sinestro most badass concept ever. THATS RIGHT GREEN LANTERN WHOSE FILM AND ANIMATED SERIES WERE CRITICALLY PANNED HIS GREATEST VILLIAN CONCEPTUALLY IS BETTER THAN PROBABLY TWO OF THE MOST ENDURING CHARACTERS IN MYTHOLOGY, SARCASM.

The GL animated series wasn't panned and atleast GL got his own series that's a start.The movie was bombed and even then Sinestro was widely regarded as the best to come out of it,dont worry though Wondy isn't getting a movie anytime soon and on the off chance she does it'll most likely be as Superman's new girlfriend,likewise your script isn't worth a damn to me,same goes for your homoerotic fantasy world where Ares is DC's greatest villain.Sinestro has been part of a decade long run that transformed the GL comic franchise completely. Right now there are 5 GL family books,soon to be 6(Sinestro corps for that matter) as opposed to just one WW book and another with her as Superman's mistress.

Sinestro is widely regarded as one of the greatest comic villains ever Ares isn't period.Mythology Ares and comic Ares are not the same.

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