I think everyone here has realized that Superman is more powerful than Wonder Woman, then, please change the disc. No need to repeat 483948938588987654321345678987643234567890987643213456789876543x863123456789087654323456 of times Superman "bench earth five days." Seriously, it's annoying to read the same thing in ALL posts. If you are so fan of him, I invite you to pour all this worship in the HIM forum, not here. It's unpleasant to come here and to see someone despising the character that way. You sound like a troll who loves to tease the fans, always with the same argument exceeded. So, If you don't like her, go on the Superman forum, venerate him and be happy. Thank you.
superman/wonderwoman #2 thoughts
From My friend points,He tell me superman 06 isnt prove superman is much stronger than supergirl
"Superman didn't beat Supergirl in Superman #6 at all"
"Supergirl didn't fight Superman"
"Must compensate for broken link. Must reconfigure host matrix. This alien female should suffice ."
From Dictionary.com:
suf·fice /səˈfīs/Verb:
1.Be enough or adequate.
2.Meet the needs of.
Translation: Supergirl is enough or adequate to meet my needs!
Needs for what?
To compensate for Eradicator's broken link.
Link with whom?
Superman.
Clark tells us directly that Eradicator has a mental link with him:
That's the link that gets broken.
The Eradicator's mental link with Superman.
That's the one Eradicator must compensate for.
Superman also served as the host matrix.
Eradicator makes Supergirl take his place.
>> Superman doesn't gain the upper hand with
>> conventional fight technique, either.
>> He manages to take control of Eradicator's
>> nanotechnology, and TELLS us so.
"Sorry,I'm in control of your nanotechnology now"
>> Kara, having no such experience, or thought that she should, falls to ER.
>> Superman fell to Eradicator when HE fought him the first time around, too ...
> Before the link was broken, we see the "Eradicator" giving Kara multiple punches
We do. Or at least it's heavily implied.
> Lois starts screaming "Superman!Stop! You're killing her!" pg. 6.
> that is when supergirl lands a hit on the "Eradicator".
That is when Supergirl lands a hit on Eradicator!
She smacks him good!
> True or False.
It's true! Or true enough for MY tastes!
Maybe give or take a few seconds for him to scream beforehand, but true!
We are in agreement!
> Just re-read the entire comic and there was never a time
> when Supergirl dominated the battle whatsoever!
There isn't! She's totally dominated by him!
Eradicator runs right over her!
He nearly, like, eradicated Supergirl and stuff ... !
Eradicator rules!!
> When Superman lost to this infestation, he wasn't over
> powered physically like Supergirl was!
So this is where we start having problems.
For starters, even in Superman form, Eradicator IS the infestation.
Proof is that he dissolves into a sort of "insect" mass at the end of his final battle with Superman.
But so is the beast in Superman #2 knocking Clark all over the city.
And so is the ice creature of Superman #3.
And so is the fire creature in Superman #1.
And so, too is the fake Clark fighting Kara.
All of these are the Eradicator. And at all times Eradicator is really this cloud of supernanobugs.
He doesn't betray the same properties as your run-of-the-mill brawler/flyer/tank.
He doesn't attack quite the same way.
He's not vulnerable to quite the same class of forces.
You're trying to equate Eradicator with some flying brick like Thor or Superman himself and saying Eradicator is a perfect stand-in for Superman.
He's not.
You're saying there is no "second layer" to his assault on either Kara or Kal.
There is. Kara even starts to tell Eradicator, thinking it is Superman, that he's nuts to think his "Heat Vision" will be an effective weapon against her.
To her surprise, it is.
> Supergirl was shut down? There is no prove to that!
It's "proof". Not "prove".
If you want to say there's no proof the "reconfigure" blast didn't shut Supergirl down
despite the fact that she doesn't fight back after that point, though she did at every previous point in the fight,
AND despite the fact that a reporter comments on her change in behavior ...?
Go ahead and say that.
But you need to admit that there is no proof that she wasn't shut down, either.
Especially when the Eradicator did the same thing to Superman for the better part of 2 issues:
> [Eradicator] grabs Supergirl as she tries to punch him,
> blasts her with a beam blows her away and super speed
> punches her ... that is called OVER POWERING!!
In some contexts that is true.
But it's generally considered true where power is overcoming active resistance from another fighter.
There's no proof that Supergirl was actively resisting Eradicator at that point, and the reporter's comments seem to corroborate that.
You ask me to prove that Supergirl was being shut down?
Prove to me that Supergirl was actively fighting Eradicator after that "reconfigure" beam.
> If the "Eradicator" had the power to shut "beings" down
> -which is just absurd- why didn't it do that to Superman!
Eradicator DID do that to Superman.
Why do you think Clark had those blackouts in Superman #4 and couldn't remember how he got from Smallville to Metropolis and other locales?
And that was BEFORE the near-COMPLETE takeover of him at the end of issue #4 and the bulk of Superman #5.
And no, I wouldn't swear on a Bible or anything, but
GIVEN that Eradicator shut Superman down in issues 4 and 5,
GIVEN that Supergirl alluded to the fact that ordinary Kryptonian heat vision should not significantly affect her and did,
GIVEN that Kara fought back before the "reconfigure" blast but did not do so afterward,
GIVEN that a reporter commented on her strange lack of resistance afterwards,
GIVEN that Eradicator made the comment on "reconfiguring matrix" right before that beam, saying the "alien girl" will "suffice",
reconfiguring matrix being what he said right before his take over of Clark at the end of Superman #4, and
GIVEN that Clark made it a point to say he had finally gotten control of Eradicator's nanotechnology himself,
yes, I feel fairly confident that Eradicator "shut Supergirl" down as all of the above clues of the arc suggests.
Here is the scene I am trying to describe from Superman #5:
It should make clearer -- Superman was beaten by Eradicator himself.
Superman did not win the encounter in Superman #4.
Moreover, with the POSSIBLE exception of the very last page, Superman was not in control of himself for ANY part of Superman #5.
You do not see Supergirl saying the fake Superman is weak.
You see her say:
"Ha! You are WEAKENING! I can feel it in your grip!"
That just means Eradicator is not as strong as he was a moment ago.
And she is not holding HIS hands, HE is holding HERS.
The only things that matter to me in relation to this question are:
1) It was not Superman beating Supergirl,
2) It was not physical strength Eradicator used to make Supergirl helpless
He got her helpless and THEN proceeded to beat her severely.
What got her helpless? Eradicator's reconfiguring blast.
Eradicator took over her mind. Shut it down.
Same way Eradicator EARLIER did to Superman himself.
People miss this.
Superman lost to Eradicator. Examine the end of Superman #4 and tell me what happened. Then examine Superman #5 and explain to me why Superman is killing terrorists.
It's not Superman. He's too busy floating, mindless, in space.
How did Superman eventually free himself?
Good question.
Part of it might have been Lois's voice "snapping" him out of it for a moment.
But it's obvious Superman managed to use some sort of mental technique to prevent Eradicator from getting control of him again.
How?
Who knows? It's comics.
Supergirl, encountering Eradicator in Superman #6, is not given the opportunity to learn WHATEVER it is that it took Superman from the end of Superman #4 to the climax of Superman #5 to learn.
It's not a simple beat-down you're looking at.
You can't just look at the pretty pictures here like so many rabid Superman fans do.
Those English word MEAN something.
Specifically, the following English words clue us in:
"She's not even putting up a fight!"
"It's as if all her SURVIVAL instincts have been totally STRIPPED away!"
You wouldn't get that kind of commentary if Supergirl were merely being beaten by physical force, . Supergirl's not punching, blocking, or ANYTHING of her own volition to stop herself from getting beaten.
There's no more "fight" going on after this point than if you had Mike Tyson tied up in a chair, knocked out with a sleeping drug, and started punching him as hard as you could. Who's going to "win" that contest?
There's nothing even resembling a fight going on with Eradicator and Kara after that point. She's as out of it as Superman was for the bulk of Superman #5.
What's confusing about this?
For starters, Supergirl is not expecting trouble.
You're showing me the very first attack that begins their fight.
She's not expecting it and therefore unprepared.
Actually, doubly unprepared.
One, she's not expecting "Superman" to attack her.
Two, she's not expecting "Superman's" heat vision to hurt her if he does.
So he attacks her. Unexpectedly.
And it hurts her. Unexpectedly.
And she's stunned. And he follows up.
Nothing here is surprising to me.
What's surprising to you?
If anything, the fact that Kara retaliates after being blasted with "Eradicator vision" then grabbed and slammed into the wall of the Schaffenberger Building and still responds by punching back, is testament to how tough she really is.
Remember I relayed the following to you earlier this morning?
Kara even starts to tell Eradicator, thinking it is Superman, that he's nuts to think his "Heat Vision" will be an effective weapon against her.
To her surprise, it is.
Meanwhile, her own is almost ineffective against HIM.
Does that scene makes sense as a whole if Eradicator and Superman really ARE identically powered beings?
Notice that all that damage Kara takes in your second scan is the result of a second, even more powerful "Eradicator vision" blast.
What is this blast? Don't know.
But it's probably a safe bet it's NOT like regular heat vision.
Leastways, Kara doesn't think so.
She's Kryptonian. And by this point in time she's fought several of them (bear in mind Superman #6, storywise, actually follows Supergirl's fight with the World Killers).
Again, this isn't surprising to me. Did you see the kind of damage Eradicator dealt out to Superman himself in Superman #2? Did you see what a rough time the WorldKillers from Krypton gave Supergirl in her own book in Supergirl #6?
Kara is not an experienced fighter. This eradicator theoretically has the memories and skills of Superman. Certainly many of the MEMORIES of Superman -- notice that everyone Eradicator gives "final sanction" punishment to in Superman #5 is someone Superman himself faced before?
Bottom line, there's really little if anything to support the idea that Eradicator is a Superman-style brick. His attacks are special ones designed to bypass standard enemy defenses. Mores the pity that his style LOOKS like a conventional Thor-type attack, granted.
But that's really not what's going on there.
According to Superman at the end of the story, heat vision is what SPAWNED the Eradicator to begin with. Fact, Superman specifically states Eradicator "assimilated the power of my optic fire, MISTAKING IT FOR A NATURAL ENVIRONMENT".
Natural environment?
As in place where things are SUPPOSED to LIVE and grow and thrive?
Doesn't sound like anything born under those conditions is going to be given to many problems by heat vision or anything else hot.
Fact, I predict the tongue-in-cheek joke they made of Superman throwing Eradicator's "remains" into the sun at the end of the book is only to set up the return of Eradicator at some later date.
At any rate, here's the panel where Superman specifically states how important heat vision was in CREATING Eradicator to begin with ...
Eradicator is talking about the mental link he had with Superman.
That is the link that was broken.
This link allowed him to take over Superman completely.
That is why Superman blacked out in earlier issues.
Several times.
quote:
Must reconfigure host matrix.
What does "reconfigure" mean?
Consult your dictionary.
But in layman's terms, in the context of this scene, it roughly means "change".
Eradicator's "host matrix" JUST before this scene was Superman.
He had a mental link with Superman. That link was broken.
This alien female should suffice.
The "alien female" is Supergirl.
Eradicator takes over Supergirl.
That is why, after Eradicator says that "must reconfigure" line and blasts Kara, Kara does not fight back. At all. Not even to blocking or attempting to block Eradicator's punches.
"Host" is the opposite of "guest".
If you invited me to your house for dinner, and bought and prepared a meal for me? You would have served as my "host".
I would have been your "guest".
The house is yours or your parents. The money that bought the food was yours or your parents. The preparation of the meal occurred through the effort of you and/or your parents. None of that was originally mine.
It is because of you that I am able to enter your parents' house and enjoy a meal at your house. You enabled that.
That is only ONE definition of "host" however.
That's all,if you read them all,you would be understand:
Superman isnt beat supergirl
Superman isnt stronger than supergirl,at least in the superman 06
Over
I'm confused as to whether you're insinuating God or some other supernatural being. Yes, only God could hurt God
When I write God – I mean The God, Alpha and Omega, omnipotent and all-powerful, source of worship in Christian religion. In DC’ universe his name, I believe, The Presence. Thought itself that such God can be hurt, deceived or killed by any means or any creatures laughable for me.
When I write god – I mean powerful creatures with magical and/or metaphysical origins. That Greek and Egypt gods, New gods in DC (such as Darkseid, Highfather, Orion and others).
A corollary to this is that nothing mortal can harm a supernatural being in any way, despite displays of strength; even Apollo charging Superman should still have yielded no positive results for Superman.
Ghostbusters, Buffy, Angel, Blade, characters from the half of horror movies, heroes and villains from both Marvel and DC, many others and me don’t agree with you on that.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if Supes could have beat Apollo without being charged.
I am not sure. Superman have some chances to win against Apollo without power boosting, that’s true, but I still think that in the end Apollo have definite advantage.
In the beginning of this little scuffle Apollo just casually back handled Supers – and Clark went flying right in Hephaestus’ forge, while Clark needed to hit Apollo in full swing of arm just to move him. After blasting Super’ with energy – situation became opposite, Clark was able rather easily handle Apollo.
You can't choose to ignore some feats and pick the ones you like.
So when I was using Diana’s “WW kicked SM in jaw” scene from JL, that was just some measly kick that not proving anything and so should be disregarded, while I can’t ignore ONE single feat that don’t make any sense to me? Do I understand you right?
1. While we arguing about New-52 Superman being more powerful than his Pre-52 counterpart even when all evidence to it is one “benching Earth” feat, I can use Pre-52 JL World War III story when Superman was enslaved and forced to move the gears of Mageddon machine. Its size was large enough to dwarf both Earth and Moon combined, and, just like in New-52, Supes did without recharging from sun. As far as I concerned that’s more impressive than pumping iron in controlled environment in laboratory of your own friend.
In conclusion - I still don’t see any evidence that New-52 Supes stronger than Pre-Flashpoint counterpart.
Yeah, no, that doesn't make sense.
2. Sigh… And yet again we both don’t understand what other side talking about.
Trying to explain my opinion for the last time.
When one character (Superman), who in his own title can bench Earth’s weight, in shared title (JL) suddenly requires help in lifting and holding ship from other character (Diana), which more or less consistence in power through all her appearances, its means to me that seemed superiority of the first character over second just is result of typical fluctuations in power levels which constantly happens in different titles.
So unless in SM/WW title Diana suddenly wouldn’t be able to repeat some strength feat that Supes did or DC would made official statement that now Diana much weaker than Clark, I don’t believe in this whole “SM>>>>>>WW” nonsense.
You're assuming too much.
3. You call it assuming – I call it reading through using acquired through official education and self studying knowledge about human’s motivation and my own personal world picture.
If you're so keen on bringing in actually mythology
I am bringing in one element of mythology that useful to me for interpretation.
And there is no 'essence' from Apollo powering Superman.
Now let’s deep in our knowledge of Superman’s sun-dipping : )
Let’s remember: All-Star Superman, New-52 (after Clark battled Loser in red-sun environment). Externally, in this cases Clark didn’t change in any ways, internally, his power in increased.
His body emanates some energy. This phenomenon reminds of somewhat lessened version of this (“Our Worlds at War”, perfect example of ultimate sun-dipping):
So, ether Apollo gave Supes tremendous amount of energy – or it wasn’t usual solar energy. I prefer second variant, i.e. Apollo boosting Clark with his own, “divine” energy and thus making Supes living weapon against him.
Superman can bench the solar system，And superman can lift it with easily
That’s still strange logic. Superman can bench-press Earth’s weight for 5 days, but nobody said that he can bench weight of 2-3 Earths in the same time. So, as long as New-52 Superman doesn’t move at very least Jupiter to new orbit, your calculations look doubtful.
The kick you seem to really like
Why not? All others seems to like that blasted “bench-press Earth’s weight for 5 days” feat, I like this one.
Hell, he didn't even loose a single tooth.
Why exactly he should have been loose a tooth? She kicked him in jaw, not in teeth. Believe to my word, I have some first-hand experience with it. Usually in these cases you get fractured bone in your jaw, not losing tooth.
that one kick doesn't, in any way, suggest she is as strong as him
Did she draw a blood from him?
Check.
Did he go flying from the force of the blow?
Check.
Did he say that he going to feel it for a while?
Check.
Doubt that this would have happened if Diana was much weaker than Clark.
Where exactly do you draw the boundary between 'makes sense' and 'doesn't make sense'?
http://www.comicvine.com/superman/4005-1807/forums/new-52-superman-respect-thread-670295/?page=32
Look in this page, post #1581.
Both of them lifting the ship together doesn't mean either of them couldn't lift it alone. It was meant to show them working together, not as a measure of their strength levels or Superman requiring assistance.
If ether of them could have lifted it alone, then they should have done so. Middle of tsunami is not the place for working-in-team exercises, there was plenty destruction around to keep them both occupied. They didn’t it. Hence, in this issue they could have lift ship only by combined effort.
Superman says it quite clearly that Apollo hit him with sunlight
Clark didn’t say it clearly, he asked: “Did you hit me with … sunlight?” If it was usual stuff, he would have said:”You hit me with sunlight”. But Clark asked and even paused before naming it as sunlight. So, there must be something unusual about it.
its not some diving magic energy that makes him stronger but the same thing that always does; sunlight.
Source of sunlight have the matter. That was the case in Pre-Flashpoint Universe; don’t see any reasons why it shouldn’t be the case in New-52.
If light from magic-based sun affects Kryptonians differently from usual sun, then Apollo-generated should be also.
@sanohibiki said:
I'm confused as to whether you're insinuating God or some other supernatural being. Yes, only God could hurt God
When I write God – I mean The God, Alpha and Omega, omnipotent and all-powerful, source of worship in Christian religion. In DC’ universe his name, I believe, The Presence. Thought itself that such God can be hurt, deceived or killed by any means or any creatures laughable for me.
When I write god – I mean powerful creatures with magical and/or metaphysical origins. That Greek and Egypt gods, New gods in DC (such as Darkseid, Highfather, Orion and others).
A corollary to this is that nothing mortal can harm a supernatural being in any way, despite displays of strength; even Apollo charging Superman should still have yielded no positive results for Superman.
Ghostbusters, Buffy, Angel, Blade, characters from the half of horror movies, heroes and villains from both Marvel and DC, many others and me don’t agree with you on that.
I wouldnt be at all surprised if Supes could have beat Apollo without being charged.
I am not sure. Superman have some chances to win against Apollo without power boosting, that’s true, but I still think that in the end Apollo have definite advantage.
In the beginning of this little scuffle Apollo just casually back handled Supers – and Clark went flying right in Hephaestus’ forge, while Clark needed to hit Apollo in full swing of arm just to move him. After blasting Super’ with energy – situation became opposite, Clark was able rather easily handle Apollo.
You can't choose to ignore some feats and pick the ones you like.
So when I was using Diana’s “WW kicked SM in jaw” scene from JL, that was just some measly kick that not proving anything and so should be disregarded, while I can’t ignore ONE single feat that don’t make any sense to me? Do I understand you right?
1. While we arguing about New-52 Superman being more powerful than his Pre-52 counterpart even when all evidence to it is one “benching Earth” feat, I can use Pre-52 JL World War III story when Superman was enslaved and forced to move the gears of Mageddon machine. Its size was large enough to dwarf both Earth and Moon combined, and, just like in New-52, Supes did without recharging from sun. As far as I concerned that’s more impressive than pumping iron in controlled environment in laboratory of your own friend.
In conclusion - I still don’t see any evidence that New-52 Supes stronger than Pre-Flashpoint counterpart.
Yeah, no, that doesn't make sense.
2. Sigh… And yet again we both don’t understand what other side talking about.
Trying to explain my opinion for the last time.
When one character (Superman), who in his own title can bench Earth’s weight, in shared title (JL) suddenly requires help in lifting and holding ship from other character (Diana), which more or less consistence in power through all her appearances, its means to me that seemed superiority of the first character over second just is result of typical fluctuations in power levels which constantly happens in different titles.
So unless in SM/WW title Diana suddenly wouldn’t be able to repeat some strength feat that Supes did or DC would made official statement that now Diana much weaker than Clark, I don’t believe in this whole “SM>>>>>>WW” nonsense.
You're assuming too much.
3. You call it assuming – I call it reading through using acquired through official education and self studying knowledge about human’s motivation and my own personal world picture.
If you're so keen on bringing in actually mythology
I am bringing in one element of mythology that useful to me for interpretation.
And there is no 'essence' from Apollo powering Superman.
Now let’s deep in our knowledge of Superman’s sun-dipping : )
Let’s remember: All-Star Superman, New-52 (after Clark battled Loser in red-sun environment). Externally, in this cases Clark didn’t change in any ways, internally, his power in increased.
His body emanates some energy. This phenomenon reminds of somewhat lessened version of this (“Our Worlds at War”, perfect example of ultimate sun-dipping):
So, ether Apollo gave Supes tremendous amount of energy – or it wasn’t usual solar energy. I prefer second variant, i.e. Apollo boosting Clark with his own, “divine” energy and thus making Supes living weapon against him.
Superman can bench the solar system，And superman can lift it with easily
That’s still strange logic. Superman can bench-press Earth’s weight for 5 days, but nobody said that he can bench weight of 2-3 Earths in the same time. So, as long as New-52 Superman doesn’t move at very least Jupiter to new orbit, your calculations look doubtful.
Are you saying that anything laughable to you can do anything to God, including kill Him? Or, do you need to make a grammatical edit to your post? If you're serious and wasn't making a mistake, than, clearly, you appear to be deranged.
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