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#1 Edited by dshipp17 (1182 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, this version of Superman is getting a little more like the type of man Wonder Woman needs.

#2 Posted by linkjt (477 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: what is the type of man that she needs?,i just hope that DC plays fair in the future,superman shouldn't beat doomsday alone if doomsday is meant to be a thread for the entire JL,if characters more powerful than superman like flash and manhunter can't beat doomsday alone,then superman shouldn't either,and considering WW's bracelets and her new upgrade,she should become as powerful as him taking off the bracelets,too many things must be explained.

#3 Posted by dshipp17 (1182 posts) - - Show Bio

@linkjt said:

@dshipp17: what is the type of man that she needs?,i just hope that DC plays fair in the future,superman shouldn't beat doomsday alone if doomsday is meant to be a thread for the entire JL,if characters more powerful than superman like flash and manhunter can't beat doomsday alone,then superman shouldn't either,and considering WW's bracelets and her new upgrade,she should become as powerful as him taking off the bracelets,too many things must be explained.

This version of Superman was assertive and shows a variety of emotions. This version, with his physical defects, should eventually drive out the real Wonder Woman; those examples are apart of the man she needs.

#4 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

This book has been and continues to be about Superman so Soule's giving Wonder Woman some panel time like that's supposed to level the score. Soule's his own defense attorney. Personally I'm confused as to why Wonder Woman would query Clark's friends without checking his apartment first, or speaking to the Justice League, and why her boyfriend's been late calling another woman - "you may wanna put a lid on it" ? I would've smashed her skull personally. Also I was wonder-ing what this month's Superman's-better-than-wonder-woman revelation would be. He's got more power of will !

#5 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom: I agree! totally weak storytelling! This whole book seems to be "how can we make Superman the most powerful being in the universe" ... sadly I think it is a disservice to both characters. I keep waiting for something more out of this book, but we just keep getting stories on Superman's villains that ONLY Superman can beat.

#6 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: Soule's grasping at straws to make the book seem like it's also about Wonder Woman but he's using her to glorify him, like an accessory. I recurrently read people refer to this book as "Superman's relationship with Wonder Woman" and rightly so.

#8 Edited by akintoussaint (116 posts) - - Show Bio

@linkjt: The flash is not more powerful than Superman.He's faster than superman but that doesn't mean he should be able to go toe to roe with doomsday

#9 Edited by linkjt (477 posts) - - Show Bio

@linkjt: The flash is not more powerful than Superman.He's faster than superman but that doesn't mean he should be able to go toe to roe with doomsday

flash can steal speed,he can vibrate through superman and make him a explode,flash going all out is more powerful than most characters,the speed force is no joke,if you look at the things that a blood lusted flash has done.

#10 Posted by johnqestion (212 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: Soule's grasping at straws to make the book seem like it's also about Wonder Woman but he's using her to glorify him, like an accessory. I recurrently read people refer to this book as "Superman's relationship with Wonder Woman" and rightly so.

I currently read comic critics who give the series average 4 to 5 stars. From newsarama to IGN to comicvine to CBR. But whatever. Clearly you whose mission it is to hate and probably don't buy the book know everything.

#11 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnqestion: I would give the book 3 stars at best. It's action packed for certain, which is fun, but it has not shown long term story telling potential. There are already inconsistent elements all over the series and IMO the main characters are both very self-involved. I continue to read it every month as I do hold out hope that it will explore sides of SM and WW that we have yet to see in the N52

#12 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom said:

@jdhaddad1973: Soule's grasping at straws to make the book seem like it's also about Wonder Woman but he's using her to glorify him, like an accessory. I recurrently read people refer to this book as "Superman's relationship with Wonder Woman" and rightly so.

I currently read comic critics who give the series average 4 to 5 stars. From newsarama to IGN to comicvine to CBR. But whatever. Clearly you whose mission it is to hate and probably don't buy the book know everything.

Reviews which were more than likely written by men who couldn't care less about Wonder Woman. Popular reviewers are bribed to the hilt btw since the sheeple tends to base their opinions around those of other people whom they perceive as authority so to me personally their opinions weigh less than sunlight.

#13 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom: I'll disagree with you on reviews being bribed ... I work with some of these critics, and they universally abhor the idea of a "paid review". However, it's far too easy to fall into the trap of write what the fans want to hear.

#14 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: I'm sure they'd tell you if they'd illegally received money to write good reviews. IGN gives great reviews to some seriously horrible games, I wouldn't trust IGN if I were you. As for SM/WW, it's pure male power fantasy, having Wonder Woman, the strongest female in the world, reduced to Superman's girlfriend is empowering. It vaguely reminds me of the Romans who used to compare their enemies to women, stubborn powerful queens who resist men but eventually submit to them.

#15 Posted by StarKiller809 (1213 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree. This book focuses on Superman way more than Wonder Woman and at first it really bugged me. Especially because this book is about their relationship and everyone was worried that Wonder Woman would be sidelined in the book so Superman could shine.

I however, have actually liked what we are getting. I am a bigger Wonder Woman fan than a Superman fan and I enjoy a lot of things about this book. The only thing that really bugs me is when Wonder Woman and Superman share a romantic moment. I'm not okay with their relationship, but we have gotten some good Diana moments from this series.

I also like how Soule is more in line with Azzerello's Diana and not Geoff Johns Diana. (Johns Diana is so far from the mark that it doesn't even read like the character.) But still, there are some great Wonder Woman moments in this series. Not as many as Superman, but she still shines often.

#16 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom: I'll decline to enter a debate on IGN as it would be something of a conflict of interest for me to engage in a debate, let's just say I am 100% certain that no money exchanges hands. As for SM/WW, it is a sad state that they have reduced Diana to "girlfriend" status in the book ... I hope they begin to introduce new threats that are not directly attached to either SM or WW. IMO using so many of SM's rogues plays into WW being in a side role.

#17 Edited by darkman61288 (783 posts) - - Show Bio

If you guys want to read a negative review of Sm/WW here is a link for Superman homepage. Go on it and click 2014 reviews.

#18 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: I don't know, either way I don't trust IGN's reviews. SM/WW is just another Superman book with Wonder Woman in it. I think Wonder Woman's rogues are no match for the Man of Steel and Soule can't use the the First Born & Co. before the conclusion of Azzarello's run. Personally that's the least of my concerns though, if Wonder Woman were portrayed as anything close to what I consider decent I wouldn't mind that as much.

#19 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom: fair enough on the IGN front ... WW has a notoriously lame rogues gallery IMO ... only a handful of her villains even match up to her! Circe would be a nice addition to SM/WW or they could just, I don't know, get creative and build some new threat rather than bring in misc Phantom Zone villains. I guess I'm just feeling like the SM/WW is really just a SM book with WW as a secondary "team-up" character along the lines of what they've done with the Batman and Robin book since Damian Wayne's death. I don't so much dislike the book as I feel it's too SM focused.

#20 Edited by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: She's the deuteragonist but Wonder Woman's always been a support character in Justice League books so we're kind of used to it. I agree with you about Wonder Woman's rogue gallery prior the new 52, some of her enemies have no better purpose than to hurt Wonder Woman for the sake of hurting Wonder Woman, some are driven by jealousy and they're not so frightening (children, midgets..). I'd rather see Wonder Woman fight World Destroyers, powerful Gods and such, like Superman and Thor

#21 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom: absolutely agree! I like that Azzarello has brought some power-house gods and such into the solo series, the First Born is a believable world-destroyer threat IMO ... hopefully the new team on the solo book will continue to raise the threat level WW faces in her series so that we don't have to deal with little girls with cybernetic enhancements trying to scratch out Diana's eyes. I can see more of the New Gods and potentially Apocalyptan bad guys pop up as potential adversaries in the future as well as the Greek pantheon. Feels like the door is open for some good stuff in the future.

#22 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: also Gods from different Pantheons, Roman, Norse, Egyptian, Indu, there are endless possibilities. They could have those pantheons feud over the earth, Wonder Woman ride on the back of a dragon and all sorts of fantastical god-like stuff. Wonder Woman's mythos lacks a little bit of whimsy in my opinion. If I wrote Wonder Woman it would be all unicorns and giants and divine empowered nazis.

#23 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio
#24 Edited by Bat_Girl_CC (3559 posts) - - Show Bio

@archizoom:

They won't use Apollo or The First Born, because they don't want Superman to look weak...(Apollo casually slaped Superman away, when they first met, and he has also stomped Wonder Woman already...the First Born is stronger, and he stomped Wonder Woman and Orion together at the same time...and Orion has stallemated Superman...) and even if they use them, it would probably be some very depowered versions of them...

#25 Edited by Bsaa (710 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: I hate that excuse. They've used the fact that it's a reboot to excuse everything else, how about using it to create some worthy versions of old WS foes. Only a lazy, milquetoast could look at villains like Cheetah, Circe, Doctor Psycho, Doctor Poison, Doctor Cyber, Silver Swan, Genocide, Decay, Devastation, Angle Man, Deimos, Phobos, and hell, even Egg Fu and not be able to make something good out of it. I actually have a wordpress blog where I have started a WW Earth-36 pitch, and have already written how Ares, Cheetah, and Dr. Psycho would be characterized and how powerful they would. If you'd like, I can send a link and you can take a look. If you work at DC, you need to be strapped in a chair and read it, so we don't get anymore Batman punching Cheetsh scenes.

#26 Posted by ArchiZoom (1124 posts) - - Show Bio

@bat_girl_cc: Yeah Apollo slapped Superman across the room but once he hit him with that solar blast Superman pummeled him, showing that at the height of his might, Superman is something else entirely. Anyway I'm pretty sure Soule didn't have permission to write a story around those characters but he could've used Wonder Woman's pre-52 foes or created new ones.

#27 Edited by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsaa: send me the link ... I'd love to read what you're proposing ... I'm not a DC employee so we can forego strapping me down :)

#28 Posted by Bsaa (710 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: http://jointron33.wordpress.com/2014/05/03/earth-36-wonder-woman-pitch/

This is part 1, which deals with the tone and main characters. After reading this, part two involves the villains. I've only written about three of them, but I will write some more. And there is a similar Superman and Captain Marvel pitch. Let me know what you think and spread the word, I'm kinda vain and wanna gloat about mah awesome ideas, hahahahahaha!

#29 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsaa: LOL ... I'll take a read and even if I hate it will praise you ... Just because you asked nicely!

#30 Edited by agent41 (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: @archizoom: wonder woman has some powerful villans with a purpose,cheetah,circe,ares,silver swan,devastation,queen clea,decay and genocide,sometimes they are not used properly outside wonder woman's book,but that has nothing to do with the characters themselves.

#31 Edited by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I'll give you Circe, Ares and Cheetah ... Genocide is one of my all time favorite opponents, but she is actually a version of Diana as opposed to her own character and Devastation is basically a mirror version too ... The problem with with many of Diana's rogues is that they dint make good threatens to anyone except Diana.

Lex Luthor and Joker don't need to be powerful to be threatening. Both could easily cross over and be the villainous element to many Heroes ... But who else is going to fight Cheetah? WW's rogues seem more deeply personal than either BM or SM ... Joker is chaos personified and Luthor is the very definition of a Xenophobe ... Both could just as easily become fixated on Aquaman if a story called for it ... Circe's motivations have always been about hatred/fear for Diana and or the Amazons ... Ares is at war with Diana's personal mission of peace and Silver Swan (VK edition) was specifically built to make Diana hurt emotionally. Veronica Cale, albeit a LL imitation, had potential, but it never got explored IMO ... Cheetah could be a top level villain. There are elements from Pricilla and Barbara that could be interesting, but they need to give her more of a mastermind feel not just a physical threat vibe, which makes her no more interesting than Giganta to me.

I have also never liked the idea of most of her modern rogues seem to be female simply because she is, always feels like she's being set up for a pillow fight, which is sad given her status as a warrior. Why not give WW more male villains? Dr. Psycho could be a good behind the scenes threat on many levels, but I feel like they always go down the pervert path rather than giving him more world domination aspirations.

I am not really trying to downplay her villains, but they do not strike the same cultural cord that BM/SM villains have. I know I am making sweeping generalizations, but there is a reason why if you asked a random person on the street to name 5 super villains that you would not likely get a single WW rogue named.

#32 Posted by agent41 (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: cheetah has defeated superman twice,took on flash and defeated him once,and lost the previous battle because she left her guard open,circe has defeated green lantern,manhunter,superman,genocide took on the JL,etc.

many of her villans have development,they represent wonder woman's antithesis,ares is war,violence and obsessed with having total control,cheetah=hate,jealousy,contempt for life and power ambiccion,silver swan=lack of self-esteem,frustration and anger,dr psycho=small man complex,loneliness,sadness and obsessed with finding someone for him to never be alone,his obsetion with diana,circe=ego,evil,superiority complex and vindictive.

#33 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: I'm not disagreeing with any of that or saying they are not powerful foes. I am saying that they lack the effect of Luthor or Joker as major villainous figures. Many have the potential, but none save, possibly Cheetah, have made an impact to elevate them to major audience top of mind villain. When Luthor or Joker have a story arch it's EPIC and often affects the whole of the DCU ... When was the last time a WW villain was more than a bit player in a major cross over event? Can you imagine Ares or Circe playing a lead role in COIE level cross over? Cheetah leading a Justice league against the Crime Syndicate? That's not about raw power, it's about audiences believing in it. Plain and simple WW's rogues lack that appeal. It's why people on the forums are always looking to how Diana stacks up against the likes of Doomsday or Darkseid or Mongol to judge HER power level, they don't believe her rogues stack up to these powerhouses ... Ares may well be more powerful than any of these threats, yet he's never been a serious adversary to the entire JL, Cheetah is ALWAYS a secondary villain in cross over events. DC has not made an effort to make Diana's rogues galaxy or even planetary threats on a consistent basis.

#34 Edited by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsaa: for the most part I really like it ... There is a lot of material though. I'd focus on one major villain as the under lying threat for a season or two ... Drop some "Easter eggs" to introduce some others for the future or to pay homage to allies most will not know (I Ching etc). I like the angle with Cheetah, but I'd make her villain identity a mystery to Diana for most of the run... Barbara Minerva, best friend by day, mystery adversary by night :)

#35 Posted by Bsaa (710 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: did you read the superman or captain marvel ones?

#36 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsaa: not yet ... I'm traveling tomorrow so will check them out

#37 Posted by Bsaa (710 posts) - - Show Bio
#38 Posted by agent41 (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: when was joker a world thread?,wonder woman's villans have been a world thread,the gods,circe,cheetah,genocide,they have taken on the JL,right now it's a different story(except cheetah)but in the past they have,the problem is that DC hasn't really tried to give WW more exposure outside comics that can put her and her rogue gallery in the eye of the genaral audience,for example,don't you think that a well done animated TV series that explains diana's origin,her goals in this life and how badass her villans are would make her good?,specially if the series was adapted from one of her best runs like ruka,simone or perez?,it's the type of exposure she needs right now before a movie.

#39 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: Joker in the Dark Knight movie was iconic as any super villain in the history of film. But you are taking me too literally. I'll repeat that WW has some villains who have the potential you speak of. However, it hasn't been explored. I'd love to see them create a stronger character in Cheetah or Circe or Ares, but that hasn't been done. DC has left Diana's villains on the sidelines in JL and SM/WW because they don't resonate as powerhouse threats the way Zod or Doomsday do ... It's something I too would like to change, but me wanting it and DC doing it are very different things. They must consider unit sales and mass audience appeal as they are a for-profit enterprise. WW is a consistent seller in her own series, but by no means is she a top tier seller, she has a small fan base relative to SM and BM ... With that said she is being given a ton of new exposure at the moment and hopefully her appearance in the new movie will grow her fan base enough to explore some of what you are talking about with her rogues. But at the moment they aren't top-tier villains.

#40 Posted by agent41 (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: a lot of people see cheetah,circe and ares as powerhouses,you can see it in comic forums in the battle section,and her villans have had their moments of greatness outside WW's title,they need more,but they have had some,WW doesn't sell as much as sup or bat but she can get up there,she hasn't been given the same level of promotion and exposure for a long time,it's hard to say what can work or not if they barely try,you know what i mean?.

#41 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: a lot of it is a money game. marvel does it too ... Why spend a bunch of money on building something up when you can just out Wolverine in a new title ... I do think the New 52 is making an effort to try new things, but DC doesn't seem to be giving a lot of time to make it work. They seem to shutter titles as quickly as the launch.

WW is getting more attention than she has in years thanks to the movie inclusion ... Her rogues though have not yet seen that exposure. For good or I'll Azzerello opted to move away from her more traditional foes and create his own new breed. It will be interesting to see where the new team takes the storyline

#42 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsaa: I read your SM and CM pitches on the plane today ... You've got some interesting ideas in both!

#43 Posted by Bsaa (710 posts) - - Show Bio
#44 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsaa: of the 3 I liked WW the best ... For a TV series I think what you've done with her play best to small screen. To be fair I'm not a huge fan of CM ... The character was always a little too preachy to me, the New 52 version is slightly more appealing, but still not among my favorites. SM has broad appeal, but narrowing into good story lines can be difficult for an episodic play, I'd be more inclined to narrow what you've got down to the basic players: Clark, Ma Kent, Lois, Jimmy and Lex ... You can always bring in bit players for one-off episodes, but you need a smaller cast of central players or it will feel like it's all over the place. Much the same for WW ... Diana, Steve, Etta and Barbara are all you really need to keep the story moving and create some depth for a smaller cast. Have you seen the new Amazing Spider-Man film? Suffers from a bit of what I'm getting at, tried to introduce too many characters in a limited amount of time, was pretty good, but could have been stronger if it was more focused

I liked your ideas, specifically for WW!

#45 Posted by Bsaa (710 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: For all of them, I had huge sprawling comic series' in mind, and in the case of Superman for instance, they would go from the youth of Jor-El and his meeting with a young Dru-Zod, to the last days of Krypton, the youth of Clark in Smallville, and his beginning years as Superman.

With Wonder Woman, it would go from ancient Greece and the youth of Hippolyte, the corruption of Ares, the creation of the Amazons, the youth of Diana, and her beginning years as Wonder Woman.

The Captain Marvel pitch would take place after the first "Heroic Age", which ends with the formation of the Justice League. Basically, these pitches are like production bibles for what I've designated as Earth-36, and that's why it is so extensive.

Also, something that I would definitely do that I'm not sure many fans would like is to focus less on the powers and battles and more on the relationships and personal stories, which would ground these fantastic events. Sure, there would be tons of fights and action, but it would be built up to, with most of them having a more personal element that simple "good guy, bad guys" dynamics.

And what is wrong with Captain Marvel? How is he preachy?

#46 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsaa: I've always found him slightly irritating ... Maybe it's because he's so derivative. I don't want to be hating on CM ... Just a personal taste in the character I suppose.

#47 Posted by agent41 (4120 posts) - - Show Bio

@jdhaddad1973: when a character has the potential WW has,they should work better for her,azzarello's new villans won't have staying power,it's the same old story,as long as they don't give her classic villans more good exposuere outside comics,things won't change much with those new villans that are left in limbo after 1 or 2 runs.

#48 Posted by Bsaa (710 posts) - - Show Bio
#49 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@agent41: to be fair WW has 70 years of proven track record and DC is investing in her with the return of Sensation this summer ... And they produced the WW animated movie, as well as her inclusion in almost all of the major Animated features. Cheetah was in Doomed and Ares was obviously the central villain in the WW feature and Giganta had a brief appearance in BM/SM if I recall correctly. The new villains probably won't last beyond Azzerello's run, but I'm not sure they were really meant to, I suspect at least First Born will get killed off ... What Azzerello's done feels very much like a graphic novel or extended one-shot which will hopefully lay ground work for future writers. No reason Cheetah or Circe can't play a large role in future story arcs.

#50 Posted by jdhaddad1973 (230 posts) - - Show Bio

@bsaa: superman ... He was essentially a rip off