Superman/Wonder Woman #17 brawl

Issue 16 left us with Diana facing Circe, an army of Ani-men and Superman. If she fights Superman, how do you think she will fair?

He'll prove too much for Wonder Woman, even with the wits of a pig.

Clark has superior physicals and Diana's a woman. Do the math.

Also, I'm not so sure why the mere mention of Clark seems to rile up some Wonder Woman fans. After all, Diana, a woman whose people still use fire instead of electricity has fallen head over heels for that alien.

I think you'll find the answer in your post. Btw at least Diana's people haven't gotten themselves blown up.

Diana's supermodel physique and gender must have made her weaker than the macho man Arnold Schwarzenegger in his prime that he'll beat her in armwrestling with only 10 percent effort.

Oh wait. This is comics and Diana is a fictional being who's strength is magic-based. Duh. Some dude here must be like a kindergarten.

Woman, woman, woman. Lol

@agent_z: Please point out where I answered my question. All I did was just say that the mere mention of Clark and Wonder Woman rustles up some WW fans.

And tbh, I'm really surprised that the mainstream Paradise Island hasn't been completely totaled at one point yet in the New 52.

Its interesting to see people talk about Superman as if he's some half wit ret*rd when in actuality he's a genius in the comics. LOL

Also theres a comment that sounded like Wonder Woman was love sick over Superman when in actuality its superman who whines and complains often about how he cares more for her than she does. Probably mad cause he said he loved her months before Wonder Woman said it back. Just clarifying.

You said in your first post how Clark had superior physical stats and Diana was a woman thus she was inferior to him. How do you expect any WW fan to respond kindly to a pairing between the two when that's the attitude both readers and writers will have.

I was referring to what Circe's done to Superman. Her schtick is transforming men into animals, typically pigs if you don't know.

@agent_z: The woman part was more or less a joke. But okay. Rereading it I now get your point.

Especially since Superman also excels in traditionally female things such as kindness. They literally have to take Superman out of commission to give Wonder Woman a chance to shine.

She's not fighting normal humans, she's fighting Superman, who's the strongest being on the planet. Even his powers out-class her, let alone the obvious physiological differences.

And this is art, not science. At best they're on the same 'tier' in the sense of species, in which case, men identify with Superman, and women identify with Wonder Woman, as representative of their genders. WW beating the crap out of Supes isn't credible even in terms of the fictional environment. Even if you evened out their power class, it's incongruous with natural human sentiments and experience, and adds insult by being an obvious girl power ploy.

Almost as importantly, is that Superman is a power fantasy. And no (mentally healthy) man fantasises about being beaten up by his girlfriend.

That being said, she obviously has to win. It is a girl power ploy, and she's the hero here. Even if she doesn't trounce Supes here with the thinnest of narrative apologies, they're going to keep trying till they 'get it right'. That's the problem when you put a hyper-masculine power fantasy in the same relationship as a feminist avatar.

I could live with him losing a few feminine traits.

She'll hold her own...because she has to. No one can save her now.

@supermudz: Diana beating Clark isn't credible? Neither is Batman taking on the entire League yet this happens to an insane frequency!

Why is Diana winning this fight a 'girl power' ploy? Because you say so? Since ancient times humanity has been awed by stories of hyper masculine protagonists overpowering every physical challenge presented to them. But when a woman does it, we here crap like 'pandering', 'political correctness gone mad', 'girl power ploys' and 'narrative apologies'. Tell me, were the writers trying to appeal to girl power fantasies when they had Clark beat up Apollo while Diana walked away with two broken arms after a fight with Doomsday?

@agent_z:

Diana beating Clark isn't credible? Neither is Batman taking on the entire League yet this happens to an insane frequency!

Exactly. Neither of those two things are credible. They belong in the same category. They defy belief.

Why is Diana winning this fight a 'girl power' ploy? Because you say so?

No. Because it is. That's why I say it is. You can believe me or not at your own discretion. But chances are you don't really disagree it's girl power, it's more likely it's my contempt for it that makes you leap to its defense without actually refuting it. It's the only reason to have the 'strongest woman' beat on the 'strongest man', even though those two characters are in a relationship. If it was Superman beating the crap out of a helpless, mindless Wonder Woman, it'd likely put a whole different vaguely-domestic-abuse spin on it.

Since ancient times humanity has been awed by stories of hyper masculine protagonists overpowering every physical challenge presented to them. But when a woman does it, we here crap like 'pandering', 'political correctness gone mad', 'girl power ploys' and 'narrative apologies'.

Yes, the difference is that she's not a man. It's a masculine trait, thus the endless stories and fantasies of hyper-competent men and the beautiful women they meet. Besting physical challenges isn't a feminine thing. Women are weaker, it would be unfair and incongruous to expect it or encourage them to judge themselves by that criteria. Women aren't judged for their ability to provide, or beat others to a bloody pulp in combat for the one they love; they have different appeals, like beauty, gentleness, empathy, devotion, gratitude, maternal instinct, and desire for children, and I'm sure a whole lot more.

Warrior women are liked by men primarily for being athletic, vigorous, and half-naked; and often involved in shenanigans where a man can come leaping through the window to her rescue.

Wonder Woman isn't attractive when she beats men's head into the concrete, she is attractive when she's trying to lasso Batman into a relationship, because this indicative that inside that marble exterior beats the heart of a flesh and blood woman. Of course, that's from a male non-feminist perspective, which is entirely the point.

Tell me, were the writers trying to appeal to girl power fantasies when they had Clark beat up Apollo while Diana walked away with two broken arms after a fight with Doomsday?

Absolutely not. They were appealing to male power fantasies, that Clark was competent and strong enough to protect the woman he loved.

(EDIT: It should be a female fantasy in that she has such a fantastic and overwhelmingly masculine person as her my-boyfriend-can-beat-up-your-boyfriend; but Clark's constant apologising for doing anything remotely masculine kind of nullifies the attempt, and for all I know it would have been accidental even if they had succeeded.)

I'm not trying to run roughshod over you here (I'll understand if you're offended anyway); but you understand the point I'm making, don't you? Femininity and masculinity are two different traits, specific to gender, that are emphasised and represented in two different ways. It's what makes our sexes complementary rather than competitive by nature, asides from procreation.

@supermudz: Wonder Woman can beat Superman with bracelets on. Better believe it. I don't want to see you jumping on top of the building especially after making 11 wrong statements out of 10.

Hater detected

Whatever will the bracelets do even? I can't see a single rational reason why they will help her so much against Superman.

She's gonna get one-shotted

@saren: And the guy who I replied to wasn't isn't a hater?

Their ability to write fiction was never in question.

I think you're missing the point. I think Diana can, will and should win this fight. He's presumably a mindless animal at this point. I just suspect they're going to do it in a highly implausible way that suggests she isn't comparatively helpless in the physical department, and insults masculine pride around the globe. Maybe that's considered a political perk, but it's a dramatic buzz-kill.

However, I will take your response, such as it is, as indicative that ‘Wonder Woman beating Superman’ is the primary value you see in this scenario.

(EDIT: Ideally what would happen, is that she either frees him from mind control, or he Hulks out of control and makes Circe regret ever trying, or he beats the snot out of WW and the sight of her battered and helpless body snaps him out of it, the protective-male-instinct Clark inside overcoming the monster. If one of those options happen, I will apologise to the writers for doubting their sense of drama, or grasp of male sentiments.)

Don't worry about it, none of it will make sense. Technically Superman should be able to kill her instantly with piercing HV, or super-breath dust-storms or ice-particles or just his broken fingernails, but for all intents and purposes she doesn't have vulnerabilities.

@saren: lol. How do you feel about Wonder Woman as a character? It tooke me a while to rephrase that question. Cause after reading so many of your comments on Wonder Woman Im pretty sure I already know the answer but I wouldnt wanna be called a hater or anything of the sort. So...how do you feel about Wonder Woman the character?

What character

badum tish.

Yet another great saren comment on wonder woman.

@supermudz: I'm sorry, but I had to reply to you. What you said is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. "obvious physiological differences"? Your basically saying he is stronger because he is a man and she is a woman, which makes you seem stupid. Superman and Wonder Woman aren't humans. The normal differences between males and females in the human species DON'T apply to them. Clark is an Alien (Kryptonian) and Diana is a Demigoddess (Amazonian/Olympian hybrid) . They are from entirely different species which means that it is entirely plausible that WW can beat Superman. She has proven that the women of her species (female Olympians) are physiologically superior to female Kryptonians when she beat Supergirl and handled both Zod and Faora, forcing them to retreat. All this while her power was dampened.

Edit; Oh and FYI Superman is not the most powerful being on the planet. There is MMH, Firestorm, the Spectre etc

@klaus: i saw that ridiculousness too but i didnt wanna waste my time with it.

Haha you have more restraint than me. When I see such bs written like that I can't hold my tongue.

Was that... too subtle or something? Yes, I spent my posts from beginning to end explaining that it was man vs woman, battle of the sexes and what was foolish about it in terms of art and story and how it appeals to readers.

You don't seem to understand that what the writers are trying to justify it with is (largely) irrelevant. I'm criticising the writing. I can defend Supes on his cosmic level bench-pressing-Diana's-mom (no small feat) time-frozen powers, his mythological perk of limitless physical prowess, and challenge Diana with the fact that Amazons interbreed with humans and must have at least some amount to 100% human blood, but it’s not the point I’m making.

I suspect this is going to be one of those 'more energy to refute it' things.

I’ll try to shorten my post and sum it up for you.

Yes, obvious physiological differences. You can see that she's slimmer, and a significant portion of her mass is breasts, and ovaries and such. You may not think it matters, but it's still an obvious contrast to a muscle-bound hulk like Supes.

The normal differences do apply because I’m not talking about the science; it’s about the art, and mythology; and the effect on the readers. Gender differences applied even to mythological gods. Zeus impregnated mortal women. We identify with him as male. It basically proves my point. And on another note. Diana is essentially Athena, and Superman is (space) Heracles. Athena, goddess of war and wisdom, came fully formed from the brow of Zeus, no human blood, but she still would have been slaughtered by the mortal hero Heracles (don't get distracted, it's just for the analogy).

And more importantly, they apply to us. And we happen to be the people the story's trying to invest, we're the ones trying to identify with these characters. I don't identify with Wonder Woman, I identify with Superman, despite the fact that he's an alien.

It’s about who you identify with, and sympathise with. Superman being turned into a damsel-in-distress having to get bailed out by his girl-friend was embarrassing for anyone trying to identify with him as a masculine hero, and makes it difficult to see why Wonder Woman would even be attracted to such a wimp.

That’s what I’m arguing. The science of it is utterly arbitrary since you can give Superman any level of strength and prowess you like, even if he wasn’t already at god-slaughtering levels.

@supermudz:

wonder woman vs bane. Who wins?

@sodamyat:

Wonder Woman. Much higher tier. Bane is not the male equivalent of Wonder Woman.

You still don't quite seem to understand the point.

EDIT: And yes, to support my point. Bane dating Wonder Woman would be embarrassing for him, because he would never be competent or strong enough to be a good match.

You said this:

Yes, obvious physiological differences. You can see that she's slimmer, and a significant portion of her mass is breasts, and ovaries and such. You may not think it matters, but it's still an obvious contrast to a muscle-bound hulk like Supes.

bane is a muscle bound character too. doesnt matter here does it

You'd notice my post was quite a lot larger and extensive than the part you quoted.

Bane being muscle-bound doesn't matter because he's not in the same class. Superman is at the very least, in the same class.

Would you believe Batman was an incredible acrobat if he gained 400 pounds of fat? Bane being muscle-bound is for the sake of art, that helps us identify him as a street-level badass capable of breaking Batman's back. If he was a skinny ten year old kid, it would matter, wouldn't it?

It's exactly what I'm talking about.

You're just making bad comparisons.

the point i was making that you seemingly are incapable of understanding was that physique doesnt matter.

clark only weighs 225 pounds and can lift the planet and move fasster than light.

Just with those 2 sentences ive rendered everything youve said pointless.

@sodamyat:

He can lift the planet and move faster than light because he is super-powered kryptonian. He's at the top class, just like Wonder Woman is put in the top class. We've already been over it. Repeating it is pointless.

Just because you want me to be wrong, doesn't make my points invalid. That's not how argument works.

ive already proved my point. body types dont matter.

@sodamyat:

So an ordinary 10 year old boy has an even chance against Batman?

yes. damian is a 10 year old and is bullet proof and can throw trucks with one hand.

@sodamyat:

A kid with super-powers. Interesting definition of 'ordinary'. I'll take that as a tacit concession.

But you are right. Physique isn't the real issue. It's a factor, but it's only a contributing one. As I said, it's about identification. I identify with Superman representing men in the SM/WW relationship as I don't with Bane. Superman representing men is the premise, his physique helps us identify his physical prowess. I'm not sure if I can make it any clearer.

Take it as a loss. I proved my point long ago.

No, I'm okay with it as it is. You didn't really have a point, and didn't manage to succeed even in your barely relevant arguments. You were just looking for a logical flaw and failed to find it. Kind of a waste of time for both of us, to be honest.

You lost bro. In embarrassing fashion.

@sodamyat:

Hah! So that represents your level of argument, does it? It's about what I was expecting, anyway, so I'm not too disappointed.

Well, I'll try to be more fashionable next time.

Keep trying though. Maybe if you reply, this time I'll get really annoyed, and you can feel like you've accomplished something today. No promises, but I want to give you that hope.

@supermudz: i beat your silly illogical argument so easily.

@sodamyat:

A meme of hipster kids who play with other people's balls. Subtle come-on, or personal quirk? You be the judge.

EDIT: 'Fraid I'll have to cut it short there, Romeo. But I'm afraid I'm straight, and I have to go. Don't let it keep you up tonight.

lol

@agent41: Man, just don't. I am not up for another argument with you in terms of Wonder Woman's power levels and s**t like that.