#1 Edited by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously, he did away with Perez' cast, made idiotic Golden age stuff canon(god, I wanna puke), and utterly stuck a wrench in the stability that the character had up 'til that point.

#2 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33:best wonder woman runs,perez,ruka and simone,maybe you can save some issues from other vwritters,maybe,but perez,ruka and simone are her best runs.

#3 Posted by herrweis (428 posts) - - Show Bio

The writing and artwork both sucked on byrnes run.everything post bryne has been great

#4 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@herrweis: the art wasn't that bad, but it wasn't up to par with what he had done on Superman.

Then again, it's perfect compared to the writing

#5 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

Made it more about the supporting characters.

Made Diana into the Goddess of Truth (though Uselessness is the more appropriate term)

Ugly art

Started off by having Darkseid butcher half the Amazons, which was never truly repaid.

F****** RUINED DONNA TROY!

#6 Posted by joshmightbe (24601 posts) - - Show Bio

Byrne wasn't the right guy for WW, he was great with Superman tho.

#7 Posted by herrweis (428 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33: the art looked so flat and lazy.it was terrible. The writing was inconsistent and lazy. Its like he took the job just for the paycheck.

#8 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@herrweis: he did it to reinstate lousy precrisis continuity

#9 Posted by Pokeysteve (8028 posts) - - Show Bio

Seriously, he did away with Perez' cast, made idiotic Golden age stuff canon(god, I wanna puke), and utterly stuck a wrench in the stability that the character had up 'til that point.

What did he make cannon again?

#10 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: invisible jet, kangas, Hippolyta is the golden age ww, Priscilla rich is cheetah

#11 Posted by batpala (339 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh god I was reading it yesterday and I honestly wanted to cry. Stop making me try to care about Cassandra. I don't want to. Stop it. I cared way more for Vanessa and they only starred in a couple of comics. It was really annoying. Also Etta and Steve never really turning up made me upset as well. Didn't like it at all. I liked Donna's reinvention into canon and that was about it. :|

#12 Edited by dshipp17 (958 posts) - - Show Bio

This run had some great moments. This run actually set the stage to completely ignore or undo the Messner-Loebs stuff and made it a point to return the Mary Sue element to Wonder Woman, seemingly to spite Messner-Loebs' run. I believe this is where Wonder Woman was portrayed as surviving a nuclear attack; I'm really surprised to see that this run isn't really more liked by some posters in this section (e.g. by Gokuwarrior).

But this run was probably the first to take away the spotlight from Wonder Woman and focus attention on the story being told. I'm really surprised Azzarello's run does not bring this run immediately to people's minds; guess it's from a perspective that Azzarello seems to have the more loyal and steadfast fans of the two writers. In a way, this run caused that trend of removing the focus from Wonder Woman and placing it on the story being told and it actually seems that this has been the approach by all writers ever since, except with the JMS run, where we could have used some answers concerning the changes that developed in that alternate Wonder Woman universe.

In a lot of ways, I liked this run, but for the Mary Sue element to Wonder Woman and the complete removal of Wonder Woman from her own book until the very end. The Wonder Woman death could have evolved as an outflow from the Messner-Loebs run as opposed to a death by a surprised, behind the back attack. The story could have than shifted focus on Wonder Woman's life after death, with much less focus on Hippolyta and Donna as her replacements. For me, this run was no worse than any run coming after Messner-Loebs' run, as they all tended to be similar to Byrne's run and less similar to Messner-Loebs' run; and in that same vein, less similar than Perez's run. Perez's and Messner-Loebs's runs were very similarly focused on Wonder Woman, just different approaches to the character, as I see it; than, from those writers, we may have to go way back to Marston's run to see a similar approach to a focus on Wonder Woman, in a coordinated way; we'll forgot the I-Chiang era; pre-crisis, after Marston's run, the problem was that the issues tended to be so dissimilar to the prior issues, until Perez came along, where Messner-Loebs did a similar approach; I really liked the Artemis: Requiem miniseries by Messner-Loebs; should have been Wonder Woman: Requiem, as such may have shown Messner-Loebs' appreciation for the work Wonder Woman gave him; if he could do issue 1 of that mini-series, one of my favorite Wonder Woman issues of all time, up to the present (I had to go to Wonder Woman's appearance in Gail Simone's Secret Six for the next; it feels like a lot of editorial interference ruined the potential for this Secret Six arc), he could have easy made this mini-series more focused on Wonder Woman in the lead role occupied by Artemis, where Artemis could have been a side kick for Wonder Woman or coming in towards the end as a heroic figure saving Wonder Woman. This is where Rucka's run feel apart for me (e.g. he seriously departed from the precedent set by Messner-Loebs; instead of Hades, Rucka could have picked back up where Messner-Loebs left off here and followed precedent with Wonder Woman in Hell; had he done that, I believe I would have enjoyed his run much better). Nothing like a Mary Sue element to ruining a potentially good story arc.

#13 Posted by Pokeysteve (8028 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: invisible jet, kangas, Hippolyta is the golden age ww, Priscilla rich is cheetah

The jet he updated. I don't remember him making Rich Cheetah again.It's been a while since I've read his run though.

#14 Edited by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve: I suspect jointron33 is right about Rich though, since Zoom (Hunter) later had Rich (an elderly woman) killed by Barbara in order to help 'improve her'. If I remember correctly, Zoom's idea was that Barbara was subconsciously hindered by the knowledge that there was another Cheeta out there and that she wasn't the first.(Also it fits in with Hippolyta going back through time to fight in the War with the JSA and all that)

#15 Posted by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: ugh.............jesus christ such awful writing

#16 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17:here we go again,surviving a nuclear attack is something that any version of wonder woman can do,you are always talking about power level and then you want to throw shades against me?,hey troll where is ms marvel lifting 100 tons?,uh?,you couldn't find any scan,and where is ms marvel lifting a plane or a submarine?,nothing uh?,you are here only to complain about how you think that superman and wonder woman are overpowered,well you will have to deal with it.

messner-loebs had no character development and flat storiers,it was bad just as byrne,mary sue?,ruka and perez gave her true personality and their stories were well crafted.

#17 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@jointron33:can you believe what that user "dshipp17" says?.

#18 Edited by dshipp17 (958 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@dshipp17:here we go again,surviving a nuclear attack is something that any version of wonder woman can do,you are always talking about power level and then you want to throw shades against me?,hey troll where is ms marvel lifting 100 tons?,uh?,you couldn't find any scan,and where is ms marvel lifting a plane or a submarine?,nothing uh?,you are here only to complain about how you think that superman and wonder woman are overpowered,well you will have to deal with it.

messner-loebs had no character development and flat storiers,it was bad just as byrne,mary sue?,ruka and perez gave her true personality and their stories were well crafted.

I think I'll have to agree with outside_85 in his response to you in another thread if you're that dense to see no character development of Diana during the Messner-Loebs run; I point out my observation based on fact than quote my conclusion about a run rather than focusing too much on my opinion of a run; it would certainly help you do the same right now, because I'd mistake you for being dense if I didn't understand that you like holding firm to your opinion, despite how illogical it might sound in a given context. Just because Messner-Loebs run wasn't your cup of tea certainly does not mean it was not a good run and the things that you say about it. Everyone here knows that it's you who's too focused on displays of this character's feats.

#19 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17:no,it's you who is too focused on displays of wonder woman's feats,that's why when you first came to this site you were trying to put ms marvel on her level but you got owned because you have nothing to support that claim,you are always around here saying how it's so ilogical for wonder woman to do this and that,you are obsessed with feats,somehow you seem to think that wonder woman's true level is just above peak human,but that's where you are wrong,i have seen wonder woman taking nukes since the 40s,never below the class 100 in strength and always showing super speed too fast for the human eye to follow,so i don't know based on what you could say that is out of her character to be capable of doing things like these.

i'm not obsessed with feats,i like a good storie with the proper action,wonder woman is not complete if she doesn't have a good story that develops her character as a woman that stands for equality,that fights to protect both women and men,an story that at the same time develops her as a warrior that has morals,that doesn't try to solve everything with violence but it's ready to fight when it's necesary,wonder woman needs both things,a well developed story with well developed fights/feats that have meaning behind them.

outside_85 hates messner-loebs and byrne just like me,there was no good character development during messner-loebs,she was an hyper sexualized headstrong person that used to be rude to people close to her like vanessa,it was a bad era for her character.

#20 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve:messner-loebs and byrne are the worst WW runs for me,i think they didn't make WW justice.

#21 Edited by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio
#22 Posted by Outside_85 (8124 posts) - - Show Bio
#23 Edited by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: then his run was not a complete failure

Also, Cassie shud die and be replaced by Nessie

#24 Posted by Pokeysteve (8028 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve:messner-loebs and byrne are the worst WW runs for me,i think they didn't make WW justice.

Byrne's run was meh. Messner-Loebs wrote The Contest and Artemis' term as WW which I loved. Not all of his issues were winners though.

#25 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve:i think that maybe we can save some issues from loebs-messner,but the run as a whole wasn't good.

#26 Posted by Pokeysteve (8028 posts) - - Show Bio

@pokeysteve:i think that maybe we can save some issues from loebs-messner,but the run as a whole wasn't good.

He had more bad issues than good ones.

#27 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio
#28 Edited by RayRay1127 (42 posts) - - Show Bio

It's so funny, I remember at the time Loving the 2nd "Contest" storyline and following Byrne's run closely, but if the same teams were on the book today I'd drop the title... Seriously, the inconsistencies and bad art and over-bloated content do NOT hold up well... Of course, overly decompressed storylines that go nowhere in 2 years are not much better IMHO.

#29 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

It's so funny, I remember at the time Loving the 2nd "Contest" storyline and following Byrne's run closely, but if the same teams were on the book today I'd drop the title... Seriously, the inconsistencies and bad art and over-bloated content do NOT hold up well... Of course, overly decompressed storylines that go nowhere in 2 years are not much better IMHO.

very well said and flawless shade for azzarello,LOL!.

#30 Posted by JuliusTakalua (264 posts) - - Show Bio

I bought a few issues in comixology because they had DS in it... But wow, they must be bad huh....