Characters beat others that are objectivelly stronger than them all the time. Like, I would say that most people will agree that Krona with a ring of every color is stronger than Hal Jordan, but Hal still beat him.
Oh, believe me, every win she got seems to be put in a microscope with every twist and excuses imaginable.
I know ... it's a silly fanboy mentality. Especially when it comes to SM/BM and SM's cosmic level enemies. The level of "it doesn't count because it happened off screen" we heard when she beat Mongol in the Doomed storyline was rather hilarious. Of course it counts, she's got him wrapped in her Lasso doing her bidding. And if she hadn't have been able to subdue him the whole plan would have failed ... if SM and WW both were not 100% sure she could take him they would have come up with another option.
Same thing seems to happen when SM does something like throw boomerangs and spar with Diana ... people will try and find any excuse that avoids the idea that she TAUGHT him how to do some of these things. Early on in their relationship she comments on his lack of training and how she would teach him ... now he's showing some skills with weapons. The logical rationale is that WW taught him a few things over the last few months. People need to get over it.
There was a flashback after she defeated him where Batman told Superman that he's too good for his own good and that if it ever came to it, Wonder Woman would beat him because he doesn't have it in him to truly cut loose against her whereas Wonder Woman apparently has no such moral constraints.
Both of these two have had some pretty wild power fluctuations since they were created. What may be true today wasn't what was true 10 years ago, or 20. And probably won't be true much longer.
This is rich. I knew this would be the next scene in the pro Batman fanfiction.
Batman defeats Diana, Cheetah, Circe. In the cartoon he seduces Cheetah, has Diana drooling for him and Circe as his fangirl.
Superman gets defeated by all of them.
To put the cherry on top, Batman says that Diana is better/faster, etc than Clark. The guy who gets special treatment is rewarded by looking more feministic than the one who gets destroyed.
It must be so good being a Batman writer. Pure shameless pro soap-opera for their pet character.
There was a flashback after she defeated him where Batman told Superman that he's too good for his own good and that if it ever came to it, Wonder Woman would beat him because he doesn't have it in him to truly cut loose against her whereas Wonder Woman apparently has no such moral constraints.
she's a warrior, he's just a dude. Although I'd argue that Injustice SM went full tilt (and seems to have lost his morals too) and still got his ass kicked with pretty minimal effort from Diana.
I don't know why this forum goes "it's just Injustice" when Wonder Woman is a demented lunatic who gets her rocks off watching Superman murder people, but then pretends Injustice is a reflection of the main universe for stuff like this.
Scratch that, I know, but perhaps this forum should
This is rich. I knew this would be the next scene in the pro Batman fanfiction.
Batman defeats Diana, Cheetah, Circe. In the cartoon he seduces Cheetah, has Diana drooling for him and Circe as his fangirl.
Superman gets defeated by all of them.
To put the cherry on top, Batman says that Diana is better/faster, etc than Clark. The guy who gets special treatment is rewarded by looking more feministic than the one who gets destroyed.
It must be so good being a Batman writer. Pure shameless pro soap-opera for their pet character.
Personally I don't know why anyone still chooses to be a Superman fan, Batman is clearly the superior option for the discerning reader
she's a warrior, he's just a dude. Although I'd argue that Injustice SM went full tilt (and seems to have lost his morals too) and still got his ass kicked with pretty minimal effort from Diana.
He went full throttle after she broke his arm and Superman can't beat Wonder Woman with one arm. Buccellato sure as hell made the implication that Superman might had won had he just come out of the blocks firing on all cylinders.
I don't know why this forum goes "it's just Injustice" when Wonder Woman is a demented lunatic who gets her rocks off watching Superman murder people, but then pretends Injustice is a reflection of the main universe for stuff like this.
Scratch that, I know, but perhaps this forum should
Guess this settles the issue once and for all between Superman and Wonder Woman.
If that's all it took, the question would have been settled a long time ago when Wonder Woman said "I can't beat Superman" in A League of One.
the joy of comic books ... nothing stays the same forever. Injustice is a craptastic take on all of the characters involved, that doesn't mean it should be discarded simply because some fanboys get their panties in a twist when SM loses or when SM beats BM or when BW nearly killed WW with her own Lasso ... ALoO is a piece of crap too, one of the worst stories about the JL out there and yet people want to hold it up as some kind of gospel because WW made this comment. She's said a number of times in N52 that she could take SM but that gets ignored out of convenience too.
Personally it seems intuitively obvious that a trained warrior/fighter would smack down the untrained one pretty handily. That can change in no time as SM seems to be getting some training these days. Always seemed stupid to me that he wouldn't have learned a few things from his bro-BM and his GF WW.
This is rich. I knew this would be the next scene in the pro Batman fanfiction.
Batman defeats Diana, Cheetah, Circe. In the cartoon he seduces Cheetah, has Diana drooling for him and Circe as his fangirl.
Superman gets defeated by all of them.
To put the cherry on top, Batman says that Diana is better/faster, etc than Clark. The guy who gets special treatment is rewarded by looking more feministic than the one who gets destroyed.
It must be so good being a Batman writer. Pure shameless pro soap-opera for their pet character.
Personally I don't know why anyone still chooses to be a Superman fan, Batman is clearly the superior option for the discerning reader
Superman's legacy>>Batman. First Batman should go to Zorro and The Shadow and thank them for all he took from them. I mean SM took things from gladiador but BM took more from the other 2 mentioned.
@saren :LOL, since you're a moderator I guess I can rant freely without danger of being banned?
Batman writers have perfected this to an art form. If anyone should have this talk it should be between Clark and Diana. They were friends 10 years before BM/WW even began. They sparred all by themselves, Batdudebro had nothing to do with it.
Clark is a grown up man to admit that Diana is better than him. He would ask her to teach him, not be a manchild who doesn't appreciate her training him like in this reality.
This kind of scene is pure pro Batman soap opera: The BATMAN writer makes a fight between Supes and Wondy, then the BATMAN writer has Batman reap the benefits over Superman's carcass.
@saren :LOL, since you're a moderator I guess I can rant freely without danger of being banned?
Batman writers have perfected this to an art form. If anyone should have this talk it should be between Clark and Diana. They were friends 10 years before BM/WW even began. They sparred all by themselves, Batdudebro had nothing to do with it.
Clark is a grown up man to admit that Diana is better than him. He would ask her to teach him, not be a manchild who doesn't appreciate her training him like in this reality.
This kind of scene is pure pro Batman soap opera: The BATMAN writer makes a fight between Supes and Wondy, then the BATMAN writer has Batman reap the benefits over Superman's carcass.
The ultimate expression of fandom privilege.
Which is why it's silly to be a Superman fan when all you have to do to join the Batman fandom is pick up a comic and reap the benefits
This is like being accepted for an MBA, choosing a degree in Bedouin basket weaving, and then complaining after graduation that there are no jobs for people with degrees in Bedouin basket weaving
@saren :LOL, since you're a moderator I guess I can rant freely without danger of being banned?
Batman writers have perfected this to an art form. If anyone should have this talk it should be between Clark and Diana. They were friends 10 years before BM/WW even began. They sparred all by themselves, Batdudebro had nothing to do with it.
Clark is a grown up man to admit that Diana is better than him. He would ask her to teach him, not be a manchild who doesn't appreciate her training him like in this reality.
This kind of scene is pure pro Batman soap opera: The BATMAN writer makes a fight between Supes and Wondy, then the BATMAN writer has Batman reap the benefits over Superman's carcass.
The ultimate expression of fandom privilege.
Which is why it's silly to be a Superman fan when all you have to do to join the Batman fandom is pick up a comic and reap the benefits
This is like being accepted for an MBA, choosing a degree in Bedouin basket weaving, and then complaining after graduation that there are no jobs for people with degrees in Bedouin basket weaving
Shaking my head at your poor decisions
Or you can just pick up Shadow and Zorro stuff and read the stories that gave birth to batman, stories about real peak humans, and not somebody that goes from human to mid tie to top tier depending on the opponent he is fighting.
@saren :LOL, since you're a moderator I guess I can rant freely without danger of being banned?
Batman writers have perfected this to an art form. If anyone should have this talk it should be between Clark and Diana. They were friends 10 years before BM/WW even began. They sparred all by themselves, Batdudebro had nothing to do with it.
Clark is a grown up man to admit that Diana is better than him. He would ask her to teach him, not be a manchild who doesn't appreciate her training him like in this reality.
This kind of scene is pure pro Batman soap opera: The BATMAN writer makes a fight between Supes and Wondy, then the BATMAN writer has Batman reap the benefits over Superman's carcass.
The ultimate expression of fandom privilege.
Which is why it's silly to be a Superman fan when all you have to do to join the Batman fandom is pick up a comic and reap the benefits
This is like being accepted for an MBA, choosing a degree in Bedouin basket weaving, and then complaining after graduation that there are no jobs for people with degrees in Bedouin basket weaving
Shaking my head at your poor decisions
I noticed that while Diana saved Clark from Zod and Faora after Zod broke Clark's arm, in Injustice she broke his arm.
And while we SM/WW fans have been clamoring for scenes of her teaching Clark, in Injustice we get those scenes: But Clark is a manchild who doesn't take the lessons seriously.
Buccellato is trolling us! IT'S A CONSPIRACY! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
she's a warrior, he's just a dude. Although I'd argue that Injustice SM went full tilt (and seems to have lost his morals too) and still got his ass kicked with pretty minimal effort from Diana.
He went full throttle after she broke his arm and Superman can't beat Wonder Woman with one arm. Buccellato sure as hell made the implication that Superman might had won had he just come out of the blocks firing on all cylinders.
nope ... he said he was going full on then she kicked his ass
@saren :LOL, since you're a moderator I guess I can rant freely without danger of being banned?
Batman writers have perfected this to an art form. If anyone should have this talk it should be between Clark and Diana. They were friends 10 years before BM/WW even began. They sparred all by themselves, Batdudebro had nothing to do with it.
Clark is a grown up man to admit that Diana is better than him. He would ask her to teach him, not be a manchild who doesn't appreciate her training him like in this reality.
This kind of scene is pure pro Batman soap opera: The BATMAN writer makes a fight between Supes and Wondy, then the BATMAN writer has Batman reap the benefits over Superman's carcass.
The ultimate expression of fandom privilege.
Which is why it's silly to be a Superman fan when all you have to do to join the Batman fandom is pick up a comic and reap the benefits
This is like being accepted for an MBA, choosing a degree in Bedouin basket weaving, and then complaining after graduation that there are no jobs for people with degrees in Bedouin basket weaving
Shaking my head at your poor decisions
I noticed that while Diana saved Clark from Zod and Faora after Zod broke Clark's arm, in Injustice she broke his arm.
And while we SM/WW fans have been clamoring for scenes of her teaching Clark, in Injustice we get those scenes: But Clark is a manchild who doesn't take the lessons seriously.
Buccellato is trolling us! IT'S A CONSPIRACY! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
Why do people want to see Superman learning martial arts from Wonder Woman or Batman? So the uncultured swine that abound can claim he's even more OP than they thought because he's now all of a sudden a master martial artist along with being one of the most powerful beings on Earth? Or so he'll have some tricks to bust out in every other story when he loses his powers, despite the fact is that the appeal of said stories is seeing Superman without his powers (not that that's always the case or true.)
If he is going to learn any fighting styles, they may as well just be Torqasm Vo and Rao. Otherwise, hit the bricks.
she's a warrior, he's just a dude. Although I'd argue that Injustice SM went full tilt (and seems to have lost his morals too) and still got his ass kicked with pretty minimal effort from Diana.
He went full throttle after she broke his arm and Superman can't beat Wonder Woman with one arm. Buccellato sure as hell made the implication that Superman might had won had he just come out of the blocks firing on all cylinders.
nope ... he said he was going full on then she kicked his ass
Gallery
*sigh* no wrong, that is wrong. This is the third time I've had to post this, I don't know why you guys continue to ignore this, but no. Superman was not cutting loose. Hal's dialogue during the fight explained Superman wasn't fighting at his best:
"Willpower. As a former Green Lantern, it was the fuel that made me damn near the most powerful dude in the universe. I never really thought about where that inner strength came from. I put my life on the line over and over, and was willing to die for the right cause. But the thing is...it was my fear of dying that enabled me to overcome. I understand this as a Yellow Lantern, with a ring that is fueld by fear, now I'm actually attuned to fear in all living things. And I feel none in Superman.Even with his arm broken and battling the one person who could finish him...he is not afraid. That's bad. Clark has never had much to fear for himself, his humanity was always tied to his compassion and fear for other's well-being. But without Lois, he changed. He lost that fear.Now he may be beyond caring what happens to himself or anyone else that makes him capable of anything. And while that's a scary thought, right now I'm terrified that a Superman who isn't afraid to lose anything, will lose everything."
Just because I say I'm trying, doesn't mean I really am. The whole narrative made it a point that Superman was a shell of his former self. Superman may have said this or that, but Hal's the Yellow Lantern here. His dialogue is the real truth because he's the one that senses fear, and he made it a point that Superman no longer cares like the way he used to. That is ultimately why Good Superman defeated Regime Superman at the end of Injustice. And let's all not forget Regime Superman choked out Wonder Woman in the video game storyline:
https://youtu.be/5jFAh6QN5Uk?t=1h6m15s
"Could" Wonder Woman defeat Superman? Yes she could. But "could" =/= "would", so let's slow our roll here. If Superman truly had his heart in the fight, it probably would've gone down differently.
she's a warrior, he's just a dude. Although I'd argue that Injustice SM went full tilt (and seems to have lost his morals too) and still got his ass kicked with pretty minimal effort from Diana.
He went full throttle after she broke his arm and Superman can't beat Wonder Woman with one arm. Buccellato sure as hell made the implication that Superman might had won had he just come out of the blocks firing on all cylinders.
nope ... he said he was going full on then she kicked his ass
Gallery
*sigh* no wrong, that is wrong. This is the third time I've had to post this, I don't know why you guys continue to ignore this, but no. Superman was not cutting loose. Hal's dialogue during the fight explained Superman wasn't fighting at his best:
"Willpower. As a former Green Lantern, it was the fuel that made me damn near the most powerful dude in the universe. I never really thought about where that inner strength came from. I put my life on the line over and over, and was willing to die for the right cause. But the thing is...it was my fear of dying that enabled me to overcome. I understand this as a Yellow Lantern, with a ring that is fueld by fear, now I'm actually attuned to fear in all living things. And I feel none in Superman.Even with his arm broken and battling the one person who could finish him...he is not afraid. That's bad. Clark has never had much to fear for himself, his humanity was always tied to his compassion and fear for other's well-being. But without Lois, he changed. He lost that fear.Now he may be beyond caring what happens to himself or anyone else that makes him capable of anything. And while that's a scary thought, right now I'm terrified that a Superman who isn't afraid to lose anything, will lose everything."
Just because I say I'm trying, doesn't mean I really am. The whole narrative made it a point that Superman was a shell of his former self. Superman may have said this or that, but Hal's the Yellow Lantern here. His dialogue is the real truth because he's the one that senses fear, and he made it a point that Superman no longer cares like the way he used to. That is ultimately why Good Superman defeated Regime Superman at the end of Injustice. And let's all not forget Regime Superman choked out Wonder Woman in the video game storyline:
https://youtu.be/5jFAh6QN5Uk?t=1h6m15s
"Could" Wonder Woman defeat Superman? Yes she could. But "could" =/= "would", so let's slow our roll here. If Superman truly had his heart in the fight, it probably would've gone down differently.
Did you actually read what you wrote here? "A Superman who isn't afraid to lose anything, will lose everything" ... = not holding back."He may be beyond caring what happens to himself or anyone else that makes him capable of anything" = morales are OFF. He's not out of control, he's not in a rage, he's not holding back. He just got his butt kicked. Deal.
^^ No. You're making things up. Batman picked Wonder Woman because he knew Superman would lose regardless if he's fearless or not. Wonder Woman stomped Superman. Get over it.
Thanks a lot. I got the flashback scene where Batman believes Diana will take down Superman everytime. Basically saying Diana has no kryptonite and only Superman could stop him if he could match her and take his spaŕring and training with Diana more seriously since she is more skilled and a warrior-born. But the above scan will probably suffice.
FEARLESS OR FEARFUL SUPERMAN DOES NOT MATTER. He'll get whooped everytime.
Jeeze. Both sides are so funny :) I still think on balance WW would win. But not sure Batman confirming it makes it any more or less true. Whose Batman? What the hell does he know? Here´s the facts wonder woman and superman would both stomp Batman like the little over exposed, now becoming boring, redundent, rodent he is.
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