Is Diana of Themyscira really Diana goddess of the hunt??

I just cannot understand why Brian Azz & DC would sink so low as to make Diana the daughter of Zeus. I mean the incest and adultery is horrific in my opinion. (I just do not want that for Wonder Woman)

I came to the conclusion if Brian Azz wanted to make Diana the daughter of Zeus/Jupiter he should have just concocted a story in which Diana goddess of the hunt and daughter of Zeus/Jupiter and twin sister to Appollo was killed and sent to some tormenting abyss.

And while Hippolyta was on the beach she was praying to Aphrodite for a baby girl to replace the one she lost from Hercules during his 9^th labor.

The goddeses’s in Olympus decided they wanted to bring Diana goddess of the hunt back to life or rescue her from an abyss she was hurdled into because she offended Hera because she was the daughter of Zeus/Jupiter and Latona so they instructed Hippolyta to create or make a baby girl out of clay. The goddess’s inserted the spirit of Diana the goddess of the hunt into this clay baby and by a bolt of lightning from Zeus the clay baby came to life. But to insure that Hera would not send Diana goddess of the hunt twin sister to Appolo back to the Abyss they toke all her memories from her. Thus Hippolyta got the daughter she longed for and named the child Diana from the instructions of the goddess.

Anyways it seems that this story is much better than the one Brian and Company came up with.

I'd be on board with that in favor of what Azz has given us although I'd prefer if Diana wasn't the child of Zeus at all.

One of the many things I don't like about the New52.

Because it's a better. It's more in tune, more likely thing to happen with gods like those than the giving her a child especially one like Diana just because she prayed for it. While I rather have her father be someone else it's still the better option. If those things are horrific to you which really is a huge part of greak/roman myth then you might as well take out the entirety of roman/greek myth.

Besides these are gods and it doesn't mean the same thing as it would for people.

I wouldn't want Diana to be the reincarnation of another. She should be her own thing.

While I don't agree with everything Azz does he is one of the best things to happen to WW in a long time.

@jestersjoker said:

If you mean it's incestuous because Hippolyta is supposedly Ares' daughter, I don't think that's actually true in the DC universe. I don't think any writer has used that part of Greek mythology in WW.

TBH, I don't really want her to occupy and divinity role.

For starters, you can leave your disgust and outrage at the door, the only writer ever to even vaguely hint at the parental relationship between Ares and Hippolyta was John Byrne. So far there has been no hint or explanation to Hippolyta's origins or her longlivety.

Secondly, no, as said before, Diana should be her own thing, not a reincarnated someone else and especially not with even a whiff of Heracles over it (which to my mind is one of the most repulsive ideas you could possibly have for Wonder Woman, making her the offspring of the idea she was created to combat).

Well technically Diana is the name of the Roman goddess of the hunt not Greek (that was Artemis.)

@lyrafay: That's why the OP probably kept saying "Zeus/Jupiter" instead of just "Zeus."

@dernman: I agree with you for several reasons. First it's a much stronger tie to Greek myths, which I enjoy for Diana. Second, I've always felt the Post-Crisis origin was vaguely a rip off of CM so this twist gives Diana her own more distinct origin. It also gives a plausible reason that her powers grow with time and training. The born of clay but was fine, but her powers were always from an external source ... I like the daughter of a God and a Demi-Goddess (not saying Hippolytta is Ares Daughter, but she's clearly well beyond normal human) origin ... It makes her far more unique and allows her to stand up to the pantheon in her own right.

Oh, not this again...

@reactor:

@jdhaddad1973: I really dislike the current origin, but honestly I don't think Perez's origin was perfect either. Mostly I just think he over complicated it. It was better when it was just blessings for Athena and Aphrodite. Maybe they could have thrown in Hera or Artemis for a nice goddess trinity. What made it work was that they goddess's gifts were actually fairly mundane, but what actually gave Diana her power was the combination of her Amazon training with her divine connection. Having to learn the Amazon psionic abilities first so that she can tap into her divinity was the best explanation for someone of her power level would become such a skilled fighter, and also account for the increase of power over time.

@scorpio_cassadine: I thought it would have been kinda interesting if Vandal Savage had been the father of Diana, and murderer of Hippolyta. Also never got any of the horror comments about Azzarello's run. I know it's something he mentions in pretty much every interview, but as far as I can tell there is literally nothing that would connect it to the horror genre.

@muffin_sangria: true enough Perez added a lot to what didn't need a ton of embellishment ... But I think the new daughter of Zeus bit can still play out in some very interesting story lines as it unfolds. Hera believed the Clay origin up until Stryfe made the big announcement ... Makes me hope we'll get more detail to how the cover up happened and see how other Goddesses react to it as they realize they were duped! I don't judge Hippolyta's actions ... It's not like Zeus was a faithful husband... His seduction routine has produced at least 6 illegitimate Demi-gods that we've seen on screen ... And those are mostly all this century!

I blame Hippolyta, she should have known better. There has to be some reason she'd put the whole island in danger, other than she got hot one day and wanted some nookie. There has to be some reason for Diana's existence other than her mother was loose, that's a little too much like the real world and so mundane. I'd take an oracle's prophesy that says Zeus was destined to father the Amazon champion. I'd accept Strife's involvement, or a spell from a witch, but Azzarello gives us nothing. According to him Hippolyta has a thing for dreadlocks and couldn't resist the sight of a naked man. But the Amazons are supposed to hate men, but she'd risk all of them for one? Even Hippolyta doesn't hold to Amazon convictions and that's a problem for me.

It was explained back in issue 3, Zeus makes himself irresistible.

I think there's a lot that needs explaining about the current origin. I doubt all the post crisis goddesses were involved in the cover up. It would be nice to know witch ones were and if they were aware of the coverup or if they were tricked too. Also clear up how exactly the tricked Hera goddess of childbirth, and patron goddess of the the Amazons with this flimsy cover up. And why she needed such a cover up but the other recent bastard children didn't. A little justification for Hippolyta's actions other then being hot for lightning dick would have been nice too. Azzarello could have gone into all this stuff with his zero issue but instead he decided to make a comic about Ares training Diana, and thus increases the male dependence of DC former symbol of female independence.

That's not an explanation, it's a weak excuse. It also makes Hippolyta weak.

Azzarello isn't writing Wonder Woman as a feminist fantasy.

In the real world women suffer from vice as much as any man.

Zeus is like the biggest mass-adulterer in mythology. It makes sense that there's a reason so many women have birthed children from him (mind/empathic control), and that doesn't make Hippolyta weak either.

Um, Diana wasn't even the Greek goddess of the hunt, that was Artemis.

Well Diana was her Roman name. I think it was meant to be an acknowledgment of the reincarnation without literally treating them as the same person.

It is an explanation. And it doesn't make Hippolyta look weak, especially not when you take in the full picture. Zola was on her back after half a night of Zeus' attention, it took him what appeared to be a year to get Hippolyta in the same position, which proves just how strong her will is. It's the same kind of reasoning you have to employ when debating Hulk vs Juggernaut, the Hulk isn't weak because he cant stop the unstoppable, thats just the nature of the power.

@muffin_sangria: Sure, why not.

@netshyster: Unquestionably Hippolyta made a very stupid decision. However, think about Zeus and how his personality works, he's a master of seduction in greek mythology, hello, he knocked Lyta by taking the shape of a swan ... I'm sure there was some mystic god-mojo going on with Hippolyta as well ... she was also immediately contrite given that there is clearly a cover-up of epic proportions going on, for the next 25(?) years even the gods seemed to believe the made of clay story. Tells my Hippolyta know she screwed up and went out of her way to "fix it"

Also, I don't think the Amazons so much HATE men as they fear what involving men in their culture would do to them. They have reason to fear and hate men, assuming a similar history to the Perez era, but I don't know that we have seen universal hatred since they have thus far grudgingly accepted the return of the sons. How that integration plays out will tell us a lot about the Amazons. Personally I think it's going to end up along the lines of the Bana Migdal/Amazon integration.

Just read the title.

No.

Artemis is the goddess of the hunt in New 52

Maybe I read the coverup wrong but kinda seemed like to me that everyone was in on it but Diana and Hera. None of the gods showed any surprise at the revelation which makes me think they already knew about it. I even got the feeling that a lot of the Amazons knew about but continued to make fun of Diana for being made of clay anyways. Might have to reread the earlier comics though because I might be totally off on that one though.

@muffin_sangria: you could very well be correct. I'm interpreting that most didn't know about it because Hera didn't know. Seems to me that it would need to be a closely guarded secret to keep it from the Goddess of Women and Marriage, who has a notorious streak of vengefulness in her. Best way to keep it from her would seem to make the made of clay myth what the most people/gods believed. Certainly some of the Amazons must have known and clearly someone told Strife. Seems strange to me that they would create some BS story like made of clay and blessed by the gods when they were raping and killing men to produce children. Why not simply carry on that Hippolyta went on a raid and got herself pregnant from some faceless sailor. I hope they explore this new origin in more depth ... Especially because there feels like a whole heap of good potential stories underneath the cover up.

Azzarello's decision actually makes sense. Zeus represents patriarchy. Hippolyta represents the other extreme. Bring'em together and you get the third and better option that is Diana.

This matches up with William Marston's theory of combining diametric elements to produce a third and better options.

I don't think the Amazons as a whole were aware of the specifics of Diana's conception, Hippolyta obviously told Dessa and the small group who was with her when she came clean with Diana. The rest of the island could very likely have been convinced by the group around Hippolyta that the clay story was true. Like in most interpretations of the clay myth, Hippolyta is alone, if she often went away for months on end for her own reasons already, and one day came back with a baby girl and had someone like a priestess validate (for the good of the island) that the kid was a divine reward created from clay, no one on Themyscira would really have reason to question it.

The reason Aleka and her friends mocked Diana wasn't because they knew, it was because Diana was considered special, which amongst children makes them easy targets for picking.

There was that small group who was with Hippolyta when she confirmed it to Diana, most likely they knew and were probably present when Diana was born, either as helpers or lookouts.

Strife knew it from Zeus, who had let it slip while intoxicated.

As for why not explaining it with a raid. There could be reasons for Hippolyta not going on one, like having to maintain a certain image as Queen. Like if the last issue showed us anything with Dessa throwing herself off a cliff, the raids and what comes of them are not a source of pride amongst all of the Amazons, they conduct them because they have to in order to survive. It's possible she's otherwise bare and Zeus or another god are the only ones that could make her pregnant. She might have vowed she wouldn't go on one, either because she didn't want to or couldn't (we don't know anything about how they decide who to fill the boats with after all). She most certainly wouldn't go one one alone, it would be far too risky and people would question why she would be the only pregnant one if she went with guards.

Brian Azz or DC has not said that Ares is or is not Hippolyta's father so in my opinion it is left up to the reader to figure or fantasize about that prospect until Brian Azz puts it into the story.

It is very unlikely that DC would make Diana of Themyscira Diana(Atremis) virgin goddess of the hunt. but then again the people at DC can do what ever they want in this story. It is all about making a buck.

Even if Diana(Artemis) virgin goddess of the hunt is the daughter of Jupiter(Zeus) & Latona who by the way seduced Jupiter(Zeus) which is rare in the history of Jupiter’s(Zeus) sexual exploits.

Plus when you read that Jupiter (Zeus) seduced the nymph Callisto who also took the vow of chastity by Disguising himself as Diana (Artemis) herself and forcing himself on Callisto a nymph and follower of Diana (Atremis) and her favorite companion.

@jestersjoker: You're right, they haven't said if that's the case or not, but I highly doubt DC would subject their premier female character to being the product of incest. Also, if the implication disgusts you so much, how did you come to the conclusion that Ares is Hippolyta's father at all?

I don't think that there was any magical coercion or trickery going on between them personally, remember that Zeus didn't hide his identity with Hippolyta as he did the rest of his mistresses, he came to her openly and she accepted his advances with full knowledge of who he was and what the consequences of her actions would be.

I am going to point out we dont actually know if the form Zeus presented himself in to Hippolyta was actually his own and not Hippolyta's own personal dream date (though she was obviously aware of who he was).Remember that Hippolyta's encounter with him is only in the flashback we actually get a good look at him, while in retelling of the First Born's birth we only see him in silhouette or chest down at best.

Plus, if Azzarello is going by the actual myths, we are not going to get a better look at him because the true face of Zeus was fatal to look upon... which Dio's mother will attest.

@outside_85: "I am going to point out we dont actually know if the form Zeus presented himself in to Hippolyta was actually his own and not Hippolyta's own personal dream date (though she was obviously aware of who he was).Remember that Hippolyta's encounter with him is only in the flashback we actually get a good look at him, while in retelling of the First Born's birth we only see him in silhouette or chest down at best."

I don't know, that's a little too much unnecessary speculation for my tastes. What reason do you have not to believe that that is what Zeus actually looks like? And I should point out that while his appearance in issue 23.2 (First Born issue) isn't as clear as it is in issue 3, where he's completely revealed, his form is still fully distinguishable and he looks exactly the same in both. Needless to say there'd be no reason for First Born to hallucinate a false appearance for his father, and no reason for Zeus to try to induce one.

@netshyster: My reasoning is the following:

• The myth surrounding Dio's birth, Hera tricked his mother into forcing Zeus to reveal his true face to her and died from the sight of it.
• Secondly, looking at the rest of Zeus' extended family of freaks and monsters, isn't it just a little convenient that Zeus (as much a monster as the rest) looks like something that's jumped off the cover of a cheap romance novel?
• Thirdly, the way Hermes describes him to Zola; he becomes the object of a woman's desire to the point of being irresistible, which means he has some kind of blend between the power of Poison Ivy and Martian Manhunter.
• Also there is differences between how he is depicted (which may ofc just be down to the artists), Akins for instance drew him more traditionally but faceless when Cassandra was relaying the witches tale to the first born. And in 23.2, if we already know how Zeus realy looks, why bother heading him in shadow while letting us be sure it's him because of the cape?

@outside_85: In the villain's month issue Zeus's face is not really shadowed, you can see he looks exactly like Chiang's design but Zeus is presumably a shapeshifter and that's just probably his default human form, kind of like the Martian Manhunter dons his green humanoid look

@archizoom: I would assume he looks like that because we readers have to be able to identify him even in that lighting.

Gallery

@outside_85: Nah it's definitely the same man

@archizoom: It's the same character too :) Btw, in regards to the earlier MM note, how J'onn looks normally isn't actually how he looks, his true form is extremely private to Martians and only shown to a spouse or the closest of family members. He even when he's worn the more alien looks, that's not his true form, which we have never actually seen.

@outside_85: Yeah it's Zeus in two distinct appearances wearing the same skin, the skin of a sexy muchacho, can't blame Hippolyta for riding that

Brian Azz said it would be a horror story so to me incest is on the table especially when you consider that in Greek/Roman myth it is kinda the norm.

I am a fan of Marvel’s Hercules and a student of Greek/Roman myth and those stories enter my mind when I read Wonder Woman. Also I wrote an essay that has that topic in it before Brian Azz’s story.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/view/12422917/hercules-is-wonder-womans-father-home

Plus outside of Perez’s story there is no written document or story that state that Hercules raped Hippolyta while she was drugged and unconscious. In fact in every story Hippolyta developed feelings of love for Hercules and gave herself willingly to Hercules most likely in the pursuit of bearing a female child.

One last note. In Greek/Roman myth Hercules killed the Titan Porphyrion when he tore Hera ‘s gown and tried to rape her.

@jestersjoker: Like I said, I don't think even DC would be stupid enough to subject their premier female character to being the product of incest. There's been basically no reference to that aspect of Greek myth in past WW comics, and I doubt they'd start now.

The horror aspects of Azzarello's story for me have been more focused on the amount of gore and also the cannibalism, which is also a big deal in Greek myth. Without DC or Azzarello specifically saying whether they're related or not, I'd rather not leap to the conclusion that Hippolyta slept with her grandfather, but if that's where you went with it, then ok I guess.

@jestersjoker: It may not have been the most popular version of the Hercules myth, but the version where he raped Hippolyta definitely did exist before the Preze run.

You will have to post links on that one to prove your statement.

and the Grant Morrison version has not been published "yet"

@jestersjoker: I could have sworn I found some better sources before but all the articles I found right now don't site and sources so they could easily be refuted. Anyways these old myths were largely passes down orally so it's hard to say how many versions actually existed. From my understanding the oldest versions of the Hercules myth that he was just a symbol of masculinity and the more moralistic aspects of the character weren't tacked on till a later period of Greek culture.

Anyways even if there isn't an official written version of the myth were he rapes her but I still think it's a valid interpretation. In the myth Hera spread rumors among the Amazons that Hercules had abducted, murdered (and possibly raped) Hippolyta. It's not that far off to say that there was actually truth to the rumors. There is also a version said that Theseus raped her with Hercules enabling it to happen. Maybe it would be less objectionable if that version was used for the raid.

A big part of the post and pre crisis origins was that the male historians didn't like the idea of a group of women being able to create a peaceful and enlightened society without the help of men. So when they were writing the history books they made sure that the Amazons were known as savages instead of the great society that they really were. With that kind of historical meddling in mind it wouldn't be that far off to assume that they might have brushed over some of the more immoral aspects of their ultimate symbol of masculinity. Personally I think making Hercules out to be more of a bod guy is more interesting them treating him as the same old boyscout.