Does she really need a better rogues gallery?

i mean imo she has really great villains but even if you dont agree: is it necessary that she does? i mean plenty of characters dont have great rogues, such as superman.

Wonder Woman has arguably the worst rogues' gallery of any A-list character. She definitely needs some new and better villains. A lot of her major villains are just plain embarrassing, like Cheetah and Dr. Psycho, and fans clamoring for them to be more involved in her mythos aren't doing her any favors when she's supposed to someone that can be taken seriously. Writers ignore or sideline Superman's terrible rogues like Toyman or Prankster and focus on the ones that are good, like Lex, Brainiac, Zod et al.

There is an argument to be made that if Johns was writing the main WW book her rogues could be spruced up --- look at what he did for GL villains.

@saren: what is it about cheetah thats so bad though? you arent the only person who's said this but what about her is just not workable for everyone?

Her current rogues aren't even that well used by writers, never mind adding new ones.

There's no such thing as a bad villain, only a bad writer.

There are some characters that to work need too much renovation. So it is better to create new ones rather than try to fix the old ones.

She always finds a way to lose against street levellers.

What rogues?

They just need better writers. First born was great.

@squalleon: Grant Morrison made people take Egg Fu seriously again, I believe in miracles at this stage.

but conceptually she isn't flawed imo but people talk about her like she is. by that measure it isnt ww's rogues that are bad its her writers

I think DC should put me in charge of her rogues, replace the crap ones and revamp the new ones

Yes

Even if you go with the "better represent her current well know rogues" argument, that's not really very many. Even if there was enough, look at Batman. He has ton of good villains with great representation yet they still try and increase them.

@maccyd: Condiment King

@willienotwilliam: I think what she could use is an animated series like Batman and Superman. It would help bring a little recognition to her rogues and it might create a few new like Harley, Livewire, and Mercy Graves. :)

@darkdetective27: absolutely i know she didnt get one in the 90's partially because of copyrights. i think DC never bought them back or something after her show in the 70's ended, but im not too sure about that. I definitely think a show would have catapulted her to a new level, fame and writing wise. I also think she needs more writers who aren't scared to delve into her and her character and take some real chances. Also a "Killing Joke" sorta story for some of her villains would probably help as well

First born, Circe , Ares , And cheetah are villains with great potential . They honestly just haven't been written well

@willienotwilliam: Yeah i agree with you there and i think she does need a story like that. Im trying to get into comics and have been looking for that big story for her batman and superman seem to have like 20 big must read stories but she doesnt seem to have one.

"There is nothing such as a bad villain, just bad writing" Not quite true, but very close to the truth. For instance Puppy Man, or The Dolphin or The Rose would immediately set off alarm bells for being named villains. In real life people do not associate these kind of things with evil, so they would be a hard sale to the average consumer with no knowledge of the characters. Unfortunately over the years ww has built a collection of these villains with weak sounding and or non-evil sounding names and gimmicks. Names that outside the little bubble of hardcore ww fans seem either too generic or darn right silly. Characters like Cheetah or First Born.

Cheetah for instance (who at least signifies something) as a villain conceptually is weak, because Cheetahs are normally depicted in heroic light, as they have heroic qualities. They are beautiful cats, that are fast and sleek, the kind of thing society has determined as heroic. Think Cheetara from the thunder cats. Invariably if you look up a reference to a cheetah in literary history they will be put in a heroic light. Compare to Killer Croc. Crocodiles ugly, dwell in a swamp, hideous, sneeky, dangerous, that´s why he works. Then compare to another WW villain Silver Swann. This is another terrible villain for ww in terms of the association. Whats particually bad about or terrifying about a swan. Silver is also something considered good and sought after, light and pure. The semiotic signification of a character like Silver Swann is going to put most readers off everytime. Hence no matter how you swing it, Silver Swann is a very hard sell.

The First Born is even worse. Not in how he was written, but conceptually and as an image, he has got to be one of the dumbest villains I have ever seen. The way he looks is completely stupid and does not inspire anything but ridicule. Then his name "First Born" What is that? Who fears a First Born? The only thing it signifies is older sibling and as evil as I find my brother to have been growing up he does not strike fear into the very core of my being. Awful, awful, awful villain. In 8 years time New 52 fans will be trying to justify him to younger fans the same way pre-52 fans try and justify Cheetah. They are both very well written villains with terrible gimmicks.

A good DC villain needs a good gimmick. His name and or image need to signify a lot about him and his motives. The image needs powerful and make you stop and think, what is this character about? Or give you some inkling of who they are. And the name needs to signify something darstedly. On the first line Vannessa Cale is the only one not to fit in this general description and the first 3 are strong candidates to be amongst DC´s top villains. There is no reason they shouldn´t.-

First tier Ares, Alkyone, Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison, The Crow Children, Vennessa Cale, Maxwell Lord are all villians that could easily be taken seriously if written properly. Conceptually as villains there is nothing inherently wrong with any of these characters. They can and have in past been shown to be very cool when written well.

Second tier Cheetah, Circe, Silver Swann, Angle Man, Dr Cyber, Genocide, and a few others are generic, but could be still used, as there are a lot of generic villians in DC. Killer Croc, Killer Frost, Firestorm, Doomsday etc.

Most of the mythological ones like Medusa work for obvious reasons.

Then there is of course a whole bunch of others who are either weird, terrible or unusable. (First Born being the latest of this batch)

That about sums it up. The ones on the top level should be used more prevelently and ww rogues would be taken a hell of a lot more seriously. Especially the first 3, who have absoluetly nothing wrong with them and are pretty original in there depiction and motivation as villains. distinct from anything I´ve seen in DC.

As such she doesn't need a 'new' rogues gallery, her current one is massive and spread wide enough for there to be room for everyone.

What Diana's rogues need however is for DC and it's writers to stop treating them with the s*** end of a stick whenever they stick their heads out of the Wonder Woman solo book. As in; no more of these lame 'Cheetah getting beat up by Batman', Dr. Psycho getting a TP curbstomp by the Martian Manhunter. Stuff like that has to stop.

Her rogues gallery is one of the worst out there. The only other big character that can contend with her for worse villains is Iron Man. Both of these characters have some really, really boring villains who aren't used well at all.

I think she has the potential to have one of the best if writers would just stick to some of her established ones. Really the main reason I think Wonder Woman needs her own cartoon is so people can see how awesome her villains can really to. Here's a list of who I think should be her top twenty rouges. To be fair some of these characters were introduced relatively recently, a couple might be considered more JL villians, and I added one person she's never fought before.

• God of War- Ares has always been one of her biggest enemies, but he's dead now. Although with her now being the God of War I see this rivalry being re imagined as an inner conflict. Trying to balance her peaceful nature with her new responsibility. It doesn't really mesh with what Azzarello set up, but I'd also like to see Ares find ways to screw with her from beyond the grave, and maybe one day come back to life to try and reclaim his title.
• Circe- I see her as Wonder Woman's Lex Luthor. She isn't a physical match for Wonder Woman, but she's smart, and resourceful, and where Lex has his tech she has her magic.
• Villainy Inc- Now I think this is one of the most under utilized Wonder Woman properties. For this I think they should re imagine the group as a sort of all female Hydra. Filling the ranks with almost all the female Wonder Woman villains who have fallen into obscurity. I've got a lot in mind for the origin of this group, but basically the abridged version would be that it was founded shortly after WW2 by Baroness Von Gunther, Queen Clea, and Eviless, and in modern time the group would be run by a Triumvirate of Queen Clea, Zara Priestess of the Crimson Flame, and Veronica Cale. As the comic goes on the Triumvirate could shift again.
• Cheetah- I think the big issue with Cheetah is that most writers make her to stupid, and brutish. She can still have fits of rage, but she needs to be written as a intelligent concomitant villain. I think they should also ditch the whole furry thing, or at least make it temporary, and keep her in a modernized version of the pre-crisis costume most the time. Also they need more emphasis on her speed which should be even greater then Wonder Woman's
• Duke of Deception- He is the demi-god son of Ares, and likely belives that he should have inherited the title of "God of War". He is also the leader of the White Martians who I'd like to recant as a sub-species of human like the Atlantians rather then a type of true Martian. This would put him up against Martian Manhunter as well, but I think Wonder Woman can share him.
• Doctor Psycho- He has potential for some good stories if used right. My main issue is that they took away his ability to manipulate ectoplasm after post-crisis. I'd be giving him that ability back.
• Doctor Cyber- I would like to see Cassandra from the last run become the Doctor Cyber of this continuity. After everything she went through I think she might be in need of more tech to keep herself alive. She might eventually take one of the seats in Villainy Inc, but I;d like to see her get established as a villain on her own first.
• Angle Man- He's got a really cool power that could easily make him a match for Wonder Woman plus he has prep skills to match Batman. Go with something closer to the pre-crisis costume to give him that silver age flair, but a personality closer to his post-crisis version. He's name isn't great so maybe it should be shortened to "The Angle."
• Gundra the Valkyrie- Wonder Woman shouldn't just go up against Greek mythology. While she might meet up with Thor, Odin, or Loki from time to time her primary rivalry from the Norse mythology will be a Valkyrie named Gundra.
• Egg-fu- He's kinda a goofy character, but I think every good rouges gallery needs a couple of those. He can still some kind of robot from apokolips, but I think his "mustache" should be moves back in the middle of his face. Also if his origin is going to stay tied to China as well there is actually an old comic that mentions a lost tribe of Amazons living in China so he should be tied to that.
• Red Panzer- This character exists as a sort of throw back to the golden age stories. He doesn't necessarily need to be a literal Nazi, but he should have that old school Nazi esthetic to him. Basically he'd be some sort of war profiteer.
• Tezcatipoca- Basically a god for Wonder Woman to fight who isn't Greek. He's got a cool look, and he's obscure enough that they could really do what ever they want with him..
• Osira- She claims to be an Egyptian god, but in reality she is a technologically advanced alien. Allows for a different take on the fights against a god.
• Dark Angel- I think they should ditch the whole Earth whaterver version of Donna Troy thing. Now Dark Angel will actually be Baroness Von Gunther who has accidentally transformed herself into a demon. Like I mentioned before this Gunther would have been around during WW2 so this may have happened a while ago.
• White Magician- We already have Circe as the main magic wielding villain so I think we should do something different with him. I think he should be changed into a techno-mage.
• Devastation- There are a few "anti-Wonder Woman" they've made over the years, but they should really stick to one, and in my opinion Devastation is the best. The little girl body puts a nice twist on it. I would like to give her a new origin, and I've got a good one that's kinda based on the one John Byrne tried to give to Donna Troy, but she's Diana's childhood imaginary friend rather then a magic clone, and Ares discovers her in the afterlife, and gives her physical form, and the powers to fight Wonder Woman.
• Queen of Fables- I think she's a great character, but I never liked her origin. I'd scrap it, and just make her a god like entity. The personification of the Evil Queen archetype who belongs to a pantheon on fairytale archetypes. If you're familiar with the game "Changings: The Lost" she's basically a True Fae.
• Neron- Okay so this is the one who's technically a Justice Leagye villain, but he's not really in use anymore, and I think Wonder Woman needs another cool demon in her Rouges Gallery. He did kill her once so I think that justifies him being here.
• Archangel Michael- In addition to some demons I think Wonder Woman also need an angle she can fight against. He's the Angel of War so I think it's fitting for him to fight the God of War. DC goes a little too over the top with their Angels so he might be too powerful for her. I guess we could switch to a lower Angel, or maybe he can fall from grace which might cut off his direct connection to the Presence.
• The Fates- This is less of a direct fight, but more Diana fighting against what was destined to happen from time to time. This might piss off the Fates when she screws up the way the future was supposed to play out. They may then try and manipulate events to conspire against her.

Okay so you may notice that there aren't that many Greek things on the list. There should be a lot of Greek focused stories, but most of the beasts, and mythological figures would be more of one offs. I wouldn't call any of the gods oher then Ares villains because she relationship with them is more complicated then that. Depending on the situation certain ones could be her enemy, or her allie.

Also since I wanted to limit this to 20 I had to end up cutting Gigainta, and Silver Swan. I think they're both cool, but I had reasons for leaving them out. Gigainta is an awesome character, but she onely really works as a lackey of someone else. I think they're better off absorbing her into Villainy Inc, or just using her somewhere else at DC. I actualy really like Silver Swan, but the issue is I don't think she has long term story potential like all the others I've listed.

I love your ideas, but I have to disagree with your list. A lot of the villains you favor are just unworkable for modern tastes in my opinion. Eviless? Duke Of deception? Archangel Michael? I have put the ones in bold that I think should be worked with and to be honest she doesn´t need to many. I think most superheroes have a good 5 that are reoccuring villains, but the rest are normally just seen once in a while. My pick is easy Ares, Dr. Psycho, Cheetah, Alkyone and or Circe, Vanessa Cale or Dr. Poison.

She needs an animated show as well. I would base it off Rucka/Perrez, Simone, then finish by twisting everything with one inspired by Azzerrelo.

this is amazing

WW doesn't need new villains (though I don't mind new inventions), she just needs writers to put effort into them again. I'm talking mainly Circe and Cheetah though, as Ares (and certain gods) aren't straight up villains anymore. Also, maybe reinvent some of the ones I know nothing about, like Silver Swan.

She'll probably never have as many as Batman, but that's mainly due to all of his being in constant circulation since their inception, but maybe as many good, well known ones as Superman.

@jphulk26: I think you're being a little too cynical about what can and can't work. Really you could say the same thing about half of Batman, or Spider-man's "iconic" villains. Some of the villains I mentioned might need some tweaking to their backstory, motivation, powerset, or look, but at their core I think they all have the potential to be great villains with long term story potential.

• If there's one out of this list I could bring back it would be Villainy Inc. I don't think Wonder Woman needs a random team up of villains to fight her, but she could really use her own personal Hydra to go up against. Also the name "Villainy Inc" is just so great that they can't pass that up. I think concept has the potential to become a major part of DC rather then just something that shows up in Wonder Woman comics. It also lets them throw in all those other little characters who wouldn't have been used again. As for Eviless she wouldn't be part of the modern group, and I was thinking of ditching her Saturn origin, and making her a vampire anyways.
• I really don't understand what your issue with Duke of Deception is. They need to clean up the continuity issue with the other Martians of DC, but they can be blended together. I mean a demi-god martian who believes he should be the rightful heir to the title of God of War? That's just the makings of an awesome villain.
• People like Norse mythology almost as much as the like Greek mythology, but it's better if they don't step too much on the characters Marvel focuses on. With that in mind a Valkyrie makes a great villain for Wonder Woman.
• The whole point of Red Panzer is that he's a Nazi. Wonder Woman needs a good old Nazi in her rouges gallery. I mean he probably doesn't go around with a swastika on his arm, but he should have that slick Aryan look to him. I think on the surface he'll just be a war profiteer, but his real motivations are racial.
• The brilliance of Tezcatipoca is that he's really a blank slate they can do anything the want with. I'm thinking with the Aztecs gone the rest of his pantheon died off, and no he's this lone crazed god.
• With all the gods Diana fights I think it's a good idea to throw a false god into the mix. To tie things closer to Wonder Woman I'm thinking the cult that follows Osira is actually the Bana Mighdall.
• Now White Magician has a cool name, and a cool look so he has the makings of a cool villain. The issue is that Wonder Woman already has Circe as her primary sorcery using villain. That's why I think they should make him a technomage. Using advanced science, and technology to try and pass himself off as a magic user. Maybe he's even tricked himself into thinking he is one.
• Now Diana already has Cheetah, and Gundra as villains with the same power set, but I think she still need a proper "Anti-Wonder Woman". They've had a few others like Genocide, but I still think Devastation is the best of them. The powerful being in the body a child is a nice juxtaposition, and it sets her apart from Bizzaro Superman, and Reverse Flash.
• Again this is just one I don't see your issue with. Neron is a cool villain, and having killed Diana before makes him a good choice to be a fixture in her gallery.
• I really want to see Wonder Woman fighting an angle. With all Wonder Woman's mythological themes it makes sense for some judo/chrisian ones to be in there too. I picked Michael because I wanted her to fight a top tier angel, and his domain made it make sense for them to fight. It could be anyone else from the list though. Actually one interesting option might be to change Silver Swans origin into her being a fallen angel. She always had a great name, and look, but the only issue was her origin, and motivations didn't work well for getting multiple stories out of her.

I like your ideas, but a lot of them sound really corny and mustache twiddlingly evil, which was a mainstay of the times they were first evisioned. I mean evilless and duke of deception. Your ideas are wonderful, but I´d make new villains with them, I just think the names of these characters are either too blunt or just plain weird.

However as I´ve stated WW´s got some great villains more fitting of modern sensabilities, many of whom you´ve mentioned. I honestly don´t think superheroes outside Spiderman do face so many different threats. They usually have a few they fight frequently and others that pop up here and there. Even Batman, most of his main classic stories have been with the Joker, Riddler, Ras, Catwoman, Penguin, The gotham gangsters, Bane and just a few stories here and there featuring other baddies.

Same with Supes. Lex, Doomsday, Darkseid and Braniac are usually the guys he faces most often as the main villains. Sometimes some of his secondary villains show up as working with the main badguys but that is it.

To build a foundation for ww, ww only needs maybe 3 recognisable villains. Dr. psycho, Ares, and Alyone/Cheetah would be fine in my opinion.

@jphulk26: in my idea, duke of deception, earl of greed, and lord of conquest are underlings of Ares created by Deimos Phobos and Eris (Strife). Much like how Perez Ares influenced an almost Soviet conflict, he would use them as political leaders to influence the world into war. Their "professional" names would be something like Duke Desmond, Earl Green, and Lorenzo Contessa, in reference to their original names

By the way, i didn´t mean your ideas are corny, I meant the original names of the characters were corny. As for your idea, I don´t like this whole thing where Ares always has to be behind a scheme using external actors. I think he is so charasmatic as a villain that he needs to be front and center. He can have henchmen, but I prefer him being the main antagonist.

It was one of the things that I really disliked about Perrez use of Ares. I also didn´t like the fact that Ares caved in the end and decided to opt out of his villanous intentions. It was silly. I get why Perrez did it, but why build such a great villain and then just have him decide to give in so easily. I get ww is supposed to try and pesuade villains of the error of their ways, but that should be minor villains, not potentially her greatest foe. Same thing with the animated film, killing Ares at the end. His use in WW mythology has been very mismanaged to be honest.

The only other ww villain as mismanaged is Dr. Psycho. These two need to be front and center with Cheetah. I mean who doesn´t like a psycho? And God Of War, that´s just cool.

@jphulk26: well ares "caved in" cuz he realized he would freaking die if everyone did

It's just the fact that she occupies this predominant position in Wonder Woman's rogues' gallery that she simply doesn't deserve. She's fine as a secondary villain in a story, one of those things that the hero has to overcome so the story can continue, but an anthromorphic cheetah that kills people is a dead-end of a character. She's not particularly intelligent or a great schemer --- she has some archaeological-related knowledge and that's about it. But writers present her as Wonder Woman's arch-nemesis in stories like Injustice League where she's on par with Lex and Joker, when she's really more like Wonder Woman's Killer Croc than her Joker. She's just not that big a deal --- all she can do is maybe hurt Diana physically. An arch-nemesis has to have some deeper connection or relationship, personal or ideological, to the hero, and Cheetah doesn't. First she wants to steal the lasso, then she just wants to defeat or kill Wonder Woman because she hates Wonder Woman or whatever. Lex Luthor's animosity toward Superman is based on a lot of things and that gives writers free rein to explore him in many different ways; whether as a guy who just hates aliens or a guy who sees admiration and dependence on an all-powerful alien as an existential threat to human advancement. Professor Zoom is a predatory stalker whose very existence is entwined to the legend of the Flash. What's Cheetah's motivation supposed to be, and how does it justify her status? She has better stories when they aren't about Wonder Woman like her relationship with Urzkartaga.

The below comment is related. Can you not realize that Dr. Psycho can be made into a good Wonder Woman villain the same way that Joker and Lex were made into good Batman and Superman villains? Can you see that the only difference is that writers, editors, and DC devoted to those characters, while they have not with Dr.Psycho? On the other hand, they did devote their efforts to Cheetah, just not at the same skill level as Superman's and Batman's rogues. That's the only difference.

If you're including Dr. Psycho in your example, than lets examine Batman's and Superman's main rogues, shall we? If a writer hadn't taken time to want Joker and Lex to be better, how would these characters be a good fit against Batman and Superman? However, even with neglect, Dr. Psycho is still a formidable threat against Wonder Woman and it was simply PIS to make her immune to his psychic powers or remove his ability to remotely affect her brain physically. However, making Joker and Lex serious threats is PIS. We have these arguments about Batgod and having prep time to make silly arguments about Batman defeating someone like Darkseid or Thanos, yet he still has a clown as his major villain, after all these years, someone with no special features? One long forgotten feature of Krytonians is their ability to learn rapidly, not to mention all of Superman's special abilities, yet Lex is still a threat for him all these years later? In the recent issue of Wonder Woman 77, Dr. Psycho lost mental grip of Wonder Woman by unexplained PIS, than Wonder Woman just prepped him for the asylum, once his psychic grip was overcome; this has been similar since the two characters were created. If lots of people don't realize the potential in Dr. Psycho, why can't Batman just simply take the obvious clues of the Joker, apprehend him, and throw him in the Gotham asylum for the rest of his publishing history, or Superman overcome a threat from Lex, and have him jailed for the rest of his publishing history? Why, because of the editors and writers. The same can be done with Dr. Psycho. Roy Thomas wrote a good story involving Dr. Psycho, when he was allowed, as Dr. Psycho threatened to render Wonder Woman in a coma induced vegetative state, with his psychic powers; had Roy Thomas continued as writer, Dr. Psycho could have become an ever increasing threat against Wonder Woman. The only reason Dr. Psycho is not working is because DC is not trying to work to make Dr. Psycho look better; for some reason, they don't want to face the possibility that Wonder Woman could have some misguided assumptions about men, nor do they with the rest of the Amazons, they just jumped the obvious and portrayed the Amazons as unmotivated perpetrators.

Just takes the right person(s) at or coming into DC to get real and write gender politics into the Wonder Woman comics through Dr. Psycho. Cheetah can easily be made as akin to Wonder Woman's Bizarro or Zod. Thus, either you can argue that each of the big three need better rogues or one of the big three, Wonder Woman, needs someone committed to writing her rogues into her issues and stop drifting all of the place. This last Wonder Woman issue could have been devoted to introducing Dr. Psycho, but was wasted trying to revive the drift stories from the previous writer; can't the Finch(es) come up with their own stories with the mandate to focus on writing Wonder Woman's rogues into her stories, namely, the least used Dr. Psycho? Yes would be the correct answer.

@dshipp17: I wasn't arguing against the idea of "better representation". I was arguing against the idea that "better representation" was a reason WW doesn't need new or better villains. It doesn't matter if suddenly some writer came along and wrote them perfect, they should strive for more.

@dshipp17:

You seem to think "good villain" is synonymous with "powerful villain" for some reason, so it's hard for me to reach the realization that you have in mind. You also seem to think Dr. Psycho would be a good villain if he received a power upgrade, but a power upgrade isn't going to change the fact that he's just a repellent midget who hates women, and therefore Wonder Woman has to fight him because she's the patron saint of comic book women. He has a fixation with her, but she doesn't really have any involvement, investment or struggles with his aims.

No, Cheetah can't be made into Wonder Woman's Zod because Zod has actual pathos. Zod isn't a good villain because he has Superman's powers; he's a good villain because he's the leader of a group of people trying to bring back their dead civilization, a group that Superman belongs to, which forces Superman to confront his loyalties even while he's stopping Zod from building a new Krypton on top of someone else's world. The threat that he presents relates directly to the fact that Superman is a son of two worlds and sometimes seen as a race traitor in the eyes of a lot of his surviving people. Cheetah, on the other hand, is a crazy cat-lady. She represents nothing to Wonder Woman on any personal level but something to punch out of the way. Sure, she can be Wonder Woman's Bizarro, but Bizarro is comic relief half the time and a dumb brute the other half. I'm not sure why you would want her to be Wonder Woman's Bizarro.

There are plenty of bad villains. You can eliminate certain traits and substitute them with ones you prefer, but beyond a certain point you are then writing a completely different villain.

I guess to some extent the age of the rouges gallery is over. Now a days most story arc stretch over 3 to 6 issues so you'll only really get a max of 4 villains showing up every year. As apposed to a time when most comic were one shots that limits the need to fluff things out with many of the villains making making repeat appearances. I'd still like Wonder Woman to be one of the heroes people point to when they're talking about awesome rouges galleries, and I think she already has enough awesome villains to make that happen. Best, and quickest way for that to happen is for her to get her own cartoon, but if not this is what I'd like to see:

• A) On average most runs should use 50% pre-established Wonder Woman villains. These don't all have to be currently pre-established villains though. Say if the Finches created a new character, and a writer a couple runs down the line wanted to reuse that character then it would count towards this then. The other 50% would be new characters, and villains from other parts of DC making appearances.
• B) Over the next say twenty years I'd like to see 20 currently established Wonder Woman villains show up in at least three story arcs. Ideally most of these would also show up in at least one story outside of the Wonder Woman comics as well.
• C) Also within that 20 villains there should be a few "central rouges" that show up in at least 6 stories. Personally I'd like to see the central rouges be Ares, Circe, Cheetah, Doctor Psycho, Duke of Deception, and Villainy Inc.

Also as a side note if we're going to be throwing an Amazon into the rouges gallery I'd rather see Astarte then Alyone. I don't think you could get that many stories out of Alyone, but on the other hand the leader of a tribe of space Amazons who ride space kangaroos. That you could do something with.

yeah, but it was written that way. it shouldn´t have been. besides he could have continued fuelling minor wars, terroist organizations or found another way to plunge the world into eternal war, without use of atom bombs. there are so many ways they could have taken it.

clap clap clap. i would say the same for alkyone and ares. if writers dedicated themselves to putting ares, dr. psycho and alkyone on the same level as Lex or Joker, it would work. There is nothing wrong with these villains at all, and I think you have to have a profound lack of imagination not to see that. Ares could easily be resurrected now, as his younger self and seek revenge for WW killing him. That simple.

dshipp clearly was not saying a good villain is a powerful villain. he simply said a good villain is a well written one. Anyway Dr. Psycho is being used in Gods And Monsters comic. We´ll see how bad he is under that team.

Cheetah does have pathos and Zod is not a great villain. In fact he is highly overrated. General Zod is a joke of a villain, who is only anything because of his appearance in movies, the second of which he should never have been in. He´s the typical villain who is just the inverse of the hero, as generic as they come. These villains are literally a dime a dozen. Professor Zoom, Sinestro. etc. They have been made into good villains from care and attention, there is nothing inherently good about them.

I agree with most of what you said. The duke of deception would never work, though. Maybe if they did a wonder woman story based in the 50s and bring back a few of her earlier villains. Actually of her Golden Age villains I´d like to see Baroness Von Gunther given a chance and Angle Man. But again, not as central villains, maybe in one-off stories.

You´re joking about the space kangeroos, right? I think there is plenty of juice left in Alkyone. I think her starting a war with mankind, after siezing control of the Amazons would be the best way to go. Her realising all the creatures from Dooms Doorway, getting control of a God Weapon that makes her as powerful as Achilles. Alkyone is by far one of ww´s best villains to date. I cannot see hopw people don´t see that. The Circle is considered one of WW´s best stories, that is mostly because of Alkyone and the circle.

At which point writers normally tend to introduce reasons for the changes while retaining the hallmarks of that character. Like Dr. Light regaining his memories, COIE allowed the 'rebirth' of Mr. Freeze and Chang-Tzu.

But I agree fully with Maccyd; there is no such thing as a bad character, only wrong writer and direction to go with them.

Sure, and his ideas for how to write Dr. Psycho well seemed to consist entirely of Psycho being a powerful threat to Wonder Woman. Go back and read that comment.

Cheetah does have pathos

What pathos do you think Cheetah has? How does her character reflect on Wonder Woman and influence her personal narrative?

and Zod is not a great villain. In fact he is highly overrated. General Zod is a joke of a villain, who is only anything because of his appearance in movies, the second of which he should never have been in. He´s the typical villain who is just the inverse of the hero, as generic as they come. These villains are literally a dime a dozen. Professor Zoom, Sinestro. etc. They have been made into good villains from care and attention, there is nothing inherently good about them.

This is completely idiotic. You're giving the character a cursory glance over without bothering to go into who they are as characters and what they represent to the hero. Zod isn't just the "reverse Superman"; his mere existence and involvement in Superman's life relates to one of Clark's most vital existential struggles. Professor Zoom literally influenced the course of Barry's entire life. Sinestro was Hal Jordan's teacher, nemesis and best friend over the course of their relationship. There is always history and gravitas behind these encounters of hero and villain because of what they represent to each other. Those are the things that are actually important, but this forum seems to believe aesthetics, archetypes and powers are all you need for a villain. It's such a shallow idea of characterization, devoid of any understanding of what makes villains memorable and lasting.

@saren: If I may

Cheetah is an example of how greed and envy can destroy us. Barbara was a woman seeking the power of a god but refused to even consider the dangers of such a goal. Now she's trapped in eternal servitude to a god but has incredible power. She resents Diana for having a comparably more benevolent relationship with her gods.

Dr. Psycho is an example of how society can create the monsters that it so fears. He was a man who was feared and ridiculed because of his height and looks and thus takes to lashing out at everyone around him with his powers.

Also while I don't think it has to be Heracles, I do like that Perez showed that the 'heroes' of Greek myths wouldn't have values that match with modern times. Theseus, Achilles and Ajax would make good villains I think as well as show why the Amazons so fear the outside world.

But just out of curiosity how would you fix her rogues' gallery.

@saren: no to get off topic from wonder woman rogues, but to me Zod should be an embodiment of a sort of kryptonian military industrial complex. Whereas Ares is essentially a divine war profiteer, Zod is a general to maintain a sense of looking threat to be ready for, fighting against the new decadent age of krypton like in new 52

@saren:

1) I think you´re the one misreading the comment. Clearly any WW villain should be very powerful considering how powerful she is, to be effective. Whether in brains, brawn or someother way they have to be demonstrated to be on a level with WW or yes they will be stupid as villains of wonder woman. But that of course is not all that would make a great villain. You need a lot more obviously, but she was complaining that ww villains are made to look pathetic by loosing to every other superhero and his dad, in reletively unremarkable ways, and hence not being taken seriously.

2) Cheetah has pathos in the sense that her power literally derives from a curse that makes her a slave, to the African God who granted her the spirit of the Cheetah. Hence her thirst for blood and desire for destruction, even self-destruction is completely governed by an alien power inhabiting her, robbing her of her humanity. She has no choice but to go along with it. She has no will of her own, the Cheetah has taken it over. That makes her a pitiful character. She is a lot like a vampire who cannot help but thirst for blood. She contrasts with WW in the deepest sense then because ww was also granted her gifts from the Gods, but wonder woman´s gifts emancipate her, make her beautiful and loved allowing her to be free in a way that Cheetah can never be again.

3) "Professor Zoom, Sinestro. etc. They have been made into good villains from care and attention, there is nothing inherently good about them." I think you missed the whole point of what I was saying here, again. I was talking about the concept of the villains, not the stories that have been told about them. I agree. I love Professor Zoom and Sinestro, but on paper before you add all the dimensions of the relationships they have with the hero, they aren´t actually that good. First off they have stupid names. Second off they are literally just inverted copies of their hero, which doesn´t take a hell of a lot of imagination to come up with in the way Superman and Lex Luthor does, or Batman and The Joker or Red Skull and Captain America or even WW and Ares. Thirdly, Green Lantern´s weakness is the color yellow which represents fear. His villain weilds the power of fear. I´m sorry, but as a concept for a villain that is just as dumb and simplistic as anything I´ve ever heard. Now having read Green lantern, I know Sinestro is an amazing character, but my point was that that has come with people dedicating time and effort to giving him a great backstory and real sense of contention with hal Jordan on a far more visceral and existential level. Please go back and read some of the first appearances of Sinestro, before he was developed into who he is now. Same with Professor Zoom. They were completely generic badguys.

The point being, Dr. Psycho, needs the same attention and backstory to be given to him that makes sense of his powers, his disposition toward WW, why he loves her, why he is willing to commit acts of mind-rape and other dastardly suggestions he fills peoples heads with and ultimately to make sense of why he has become a villain. Once they do that, I´m confidnet he could be a great villain. It´s that simple. The exact same goes for Ares and a number of other WW villains. Conceptually they are absolutely fine.

Oh and General Zod has had his moments, no doubt, but he is no Lex Luthor or Braniac or Darkseid. Of Superman´s main villains, I rate him quite low, just above Doomsday and Metallo who I also feel are somewhat overrated.

@jphulk26: I don't see why Duke of Deception wouldn't work. Revamp his origin as the demi-god son of Ares, and a White Martian. His main motivation is that he believes that he is the rightful heir to the mantel of God of War. If you don't like the name "Duke of Deception" then we can say that's just a title, and give him a name in addition to that. I'd suggest Ky'Nos.

As for Alkyone I'm just not crazy about the idea of Amazons from Themyscira going rouge, and if they did I'd rather it just be for one story. A lost time of Amazons who have taken to space exploration seems like a much richer source of villainy to explore. As for the space kangaroos I find that the best comics are the ones that take ridiculous concepts, and treat them with the up most seriousness. If you can't handle space kangaroos I'm surprised you're such a fan of Doctor Psycho.

Fair enough. I´m not to crazy about Amazons in space and space kangeroos. That kinda stuff could fly in the 50s, but I´m not sure how great an idea it is now. But who know´s, I might be wrong. Anyway, I like many of your ideas. I don´t know but get the impression you may really have a talent for storytelling, but I do think some of your ideas need to be filtered a little. I always say it´s better to have crazy ideas than no ideas. ;)

I know your reluctance to see the Amazons go rogue again, after the calamity that was Amazons attack, but that was because of bad writing, terrible motivation on the part of the amazons, and them needlessly making Hippolyta lead the evil Amazons. But if they were given an actual motive, like Hippolyta being kidnapped by Alkyone and her siezing control of the Amazons because they don´t want their queen to die. Perhaps have Artemis be a renegade Amazon who goes against her and have ww caught in the middle. If she does not turn herself into the Alkyone, her mother will be murdered. I don´t think Alkyone´s motive should even be to take over the world (though that could be interesting) but rather, the sole purpose of the exersise is to rid the Amazons of the dragon girl WW, and then restore Hippolyta to power, only this time not just Queen Of The Amazons, but ruler of the world. After she completes her mission, her full intention is to kill herself, for the crime of treason. I think that story could work. Add to that Alkyone gaining some god weapon or amulet that makes her more powerful than WW and her opening Dooms Doorway, so all hell is unleashed from the under world into mans world, then I think a story like this could work well.

I just think there is a lit more that can be done with Alkyone. Simone just scratched the surface of that character. I thought she came across as really badass, and cunning a lot of the time and was really WW´s most psychologically interesting villain to date. She should be like WW´s Raz Al Ghul in my opinion.

@jphulk26: yeah, to me scifi Amazons is stupid

They become low rent kryptonians

The more i think about it she has a great gallery of rogues. the problem is writers constantly feel the need to redo wonder woman instead of taking whats there and building on it. i mean her supporting characters have been butchered over the years(best ex. is etta candy being originally a confident and funny fat woman and then becoming an insecure love interest for Steve) and this happens to her villains as well. instead of taking established villains and creating more stories with them they get totally recreated or people just make new villains for her. not to mention the weird obsession with wanting to change the story's core characteristics and so her gallery of rogues suffer when really she has so many interesting and amazing things in her arsenal(such as making Donna troy evil instead of just using alkyone or something)

How about a quartetTheseus, Ajax, Odyseus and Jason?

She needs an animated series, not a new rogues gallery. Actually glad vixen is getting one. hope it´s successful.

@willienotwilliam: I would argue that much of Wonder Woman's problems stems from the fact that writers don't really pay much attention to her villains or her support system in general. This is why many perceive she has weak rogues (which as it stands is true) no meaningful outside JL friendships and uninteresting love interests, because for the longest time Wonder Woman has been plagued with the "me me me" writing syndrome that writers only want to focus on Diana. What makes Joker great in Batman? We know his backstory, we know his unstable mindset, we know the world of chaos he resides in. Because of this we see Batman's foes to be ingrained in Batman himself. We get to know the villainous characters and supporting characters just as much as Batman which makes them so great.

Unfortunately no such writer (not even really Azzarello though he did it the best arguably) has been able to do that with Wonder Woman. And people keep trying to "fix" her rogues problem by introducing new ones that just don't have the history or meat to stick with Wonder Woman. Someone already mentioned this but I think Johns should take a crack at her next as what he does well is build upon supporting characters and villains. I'm lukewarm on his writing the A -tier characters in general, but world building is what he does best.