Posted by lilben42 (2544 posts) 1 year, 2 months ago

Poll: Azzerello? Leave or Stay (172 votes)

Stay 65%
Leave 15%
I don't care 20%

I personally think his book is amazing, and can't wait to see where he takes us. At the beginning I had some complaints but I easily got over it by the 11th issue.

#101 Edited by lilben42 (2544 posts) - - Show Bio
#102 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (739 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilben42: Yes! In fact her role in Justice League may be bigger than in her own title. In WW she's a background character that has to be rescued all the time. She's had a two year mission of protecting Zola's baby and she's bumbled it all along the way. That baby would be dead by now if it weren't for the timely intervention of Hermes, Lennox and Orion. She doesn't even come up with her own plans, she's almost useless.

#103 Posted by lilben42 (2544 posts) - - Show Bio
#104 Posted by lilben42 (2544 posts) - - Show Bio
#105 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (739 posts) - - Show Bio

It's cool. I'm tired of arguing about it too.

#106 Edited by dshipp17 (1008 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@lilben42: Yes! In fact her role in Justice League may be bigger than in her own title. In WW she's a background character that has to be rescued all the time. She's had a two year mission of protecting Zola's baby and she's bumbled it all along the way. That baby would be dead by now if it weren't for the timely intervention of Hermes, Lennox and Orion. She doesn't even come up with her own plans, she's almost useless.

Although that's sort of hyperbole, those are actually very good features of Azzerello's run; Wonder Woman needs to rely on others some time to complete a mission; I think it seems enhanced, because Azzerello is moving so slowly; if you change anything Azzerello, don't change those features. The issue with me is that it's so much entangle in the Greek Pantheon and not her own rogues that Azzerello had ungraded and bettered (e.g. but don't go that other route and go focusing on making it Wonder Woman versus a female villain, forever). I'd enjoy a Wonder Woman story arc where she bumbled and needed help. Really gets away from that Emma Peel/Mary Sue stuff that some writers like Rucka did with the character; he was the worse, followed by Perez after about issue 24; Simone just had her too overpowered, where only Genocide was only able to hang; the perfect run that balanced a lot of that stuff out was Messner-Loebs' run; feels like he was yanked way too soon, but I also feel that way about Rucka's run, because he was really working with developing Dr. Psycho and Ferdinand.

#107 Edited by blkson (785 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

I agree with @gokuwarrior - there is a lot of sexism in Azzarello's run. And I say this even though I liked the first half of the run, and don't hate the second half.

Since I know that any time anyone levels charges of sexism on these boards it tends to get people riled up for some reason, let me just start by saying that I don't think that these comics are horrible or evil, or that Azzarello and/or his readers are bad people for writing/reading them (I read them, myself). There have actually been several aspects of the run that I would applaud, especially the artwork, which has never devolved into cheesecake and has depicted Wonder Woman as both strong and feminine - something comics needs a lot more of.

However, there are some aspects of his run that are problematic. For instance:

  1. The first time Wonder Woman appeared she was naked for the first several panels for no apparent reason. There is no reason that she had to be in bed when Zola appeared, and no reason that she has to sleep without any clothes on. It's not as bad as issue #1 of Catwoman, but it does raise the question of why DC feels the need to introduce two of its female solo books with the characters unclothed.
  2. The change to Wonder Woman's origin wasn't inherently sexist, but dedicating the first major story arc to the revelation that a Goddess (Hera) and a powerful Queen of an all-female society (Hippolyta) would spend their time fighting over a man (Zeus) belittles them as strong, independent characters.
  3. The changes to the Amazons were needless and took a long running theme of the Wonder Woman character - the beauty and harmony of a society of women - and turned it into a group of spiteful, lying, man-raping baby killers. That's pretty damned sexist.
  4. On that same note, the existence of the Amazons was another strong aspect of the feminist elements of the character - the notion that women can take strength from each other without the need for a man. Robbing Wonder Woman of that, then surrounding her with a male supporting cast, undoes all of that. I realize, of course, that she has Hera and Zola, but...
  5. Hera and Zola are weak and utterly helpless, while the male supporting characters are almost as powerful as Wonder Woman herself. That's a serious imbalance. Add to that that of all the characters vying for Zeus's throne in the first 12 issues, Hera was the only woman, and was the only one who suffers long term punishment (in the form of losing her powers - the only other characters to suffer long term ramifications were the Amazons) as a result of her actions, even though she probably had the most logical claim to the throne.
  6. Arguably the only story arc that really featured Wonder Woman front and center was also one in which she was Hades was essentially trying to rape her (I know there was never any overt sex, but the notion of a woman being forced to marry someone against her will is a pretty transparent metaphor). For the record, I thought that was one of the best story arcs of the series, but I'd like to see Azzarello make Wonder Woman the star of the book without feeling the need to victimize her.
  7. Having Wonder Woman kiss Orion could be taken a few different ways, but I found it problematic that, of all the ways she could respond to him and his offensive behavior, Azzarello decided that she would on some level reward him with a kiss. Seriously, how many women in the real world would respond to someone being a jerk by making out with him? The only real explanation for it is that it allowed DC to put the kiss on the cover and thus sell Wonder Woman via sex appeal (because apparently all the covers with her kissing Superman aren't enough).
  8. This has already been commented on at length, but the very fact that Wonder Woman feels like a supporting character in her own book shows an overall lack of respect for her as a powerful and compelling character in her own right. For the past several issues Lennox, Orion, Apollo, Hermes, and The Firstborn have all, arguably, been more important/central to the story than Wonder Woman has been, and, surprise, surprise, they are all male.

Damn I never even looked at from that perspective. Great points. Also Azzy is telling a story about a baby. Because, you know, the only way a story about women can have any validity is to tell it through their reproductive system. Same with Bendis' X-Men.

#108 Posted by Lvenger (19984 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: the sales prove that arazzello's run is a flop,perez and ruka run sold more than his run,that's the ultimate proof that shows what most of the fans think.

Oh please like sales even matter in the slightest for a book's story telling quality. Age of Ultron sold bucketloads yet I'd be willing to call it a bucketload of rubbish. Perez was trading off a reboot so his sales would have been up just like the New 52 would be. That's not to say what he did was rubbish because it was the defining run on Wonder Woman. But it came off the COIE train reboot. And how much did Rucka sell exactly?

#109 Posted by Lvenger (19984 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine: You seriously like the cold as ice poorly written by Geoff Johns in a stupid relationship with Superman and who punches first and asks questions later over the well written, meaningful plot driven, strong characterisation version of Azzarello's Wonder Woman? Riiight... If you don't like Azzarello's version, fine but Johns is doing even worse to the character. Soule might do alright even though he's on a Wonder Woman/Superman romance title. Blegh.

#110 Posted by SmashBrawler (5736 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

You seriously like the cold as ice poorly written by Geoff Johns in a stupid relationship with Superman and who punches first and asks questions later over the well written, meaningful plot driven, strong characterisation version of Azzarello's Wonder Woman? Riiight...

You wanna know what the funniest part is? This happens all the time with Wonder Woman fans. First it's "Rucka sucks, we want Perez!", then it was "Simone sucks, we want Rucka!" and now it is "Azzarello sucks, we want Simone!". Funniest part is that they used to hate how Johns wrote Wonder Woman, especially in stuff like Infinite Crisis. Now suddenly he's offering her best portrayal in the New 52!

#111 Posted by Lvenger (19984 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

You seriously like the cold as ice poorly written by Geoff Johns in a stupid relationship with Superman and who punches first and asks questions later over the well written, meaningful plot driven, strong characterisation version of Azzarello's Wonder Woman? Riiight...

You wanna know what the funniest part is? This happens all the time with Wonder Woman fans. First it's "Rucka sucks, we want Perez!", then it was "Simone sucks, we want Rucka!" and now it is "Azzarello sucks, we want Simone!". Funniest part is that they used to hate how Johns wrote Wonder Woman, especially in stuff like Infinite Crisis. Now suddenly he's offering her best portrayal in the New 52!

Diana's my 6th favourite superhero and yet I don't understand her fans all that well. If this is how Wonder Woman fans react, I was right earlier on in labelling them as picky.

#112 Edited by dshipp17 (1008 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer said:

@dshipp17: First, I'd just like to clarify that it was someone else who had experience interacting with you that suggested you were a troll. I simply stopped our debate because we were going in circles.

@dshipp17 said:

for people who don't like the sex appeal or at least claim that, for the sake of nick picking, superhero comics is probably just a genre that you might want to consider avoiding in the future.

It is exactly this notion that bothers me so much. I'm fine with superhero comics having sex appeal as one possible element, and if it makes sense within the story. But the notion that it must have it is absurd and troubling. There is so much more that the genre has to offer, and there are so many examples that support my point that I don't even know where to begin. If boobs and nudity are all you're after, pick up a copy of Grimm's Fairy Tales (the comics version) and go nuts, but I don't think there's anything wrong with holding superhero comics to a different standard.

There's also an important difference between sex appeal and objectification. Granted, it can be a thin and often subjective line, but the difference is there nonetheless.

For instance, Ed Brubaker's run on Catwoman had plenty of sex appeal, and was a wonderful comic - it made sense for the character and furthered the story. I'd even go so far as to say that a Catwoman comic without sex appeal is a bad idea - sexiness is intrinsic to the character. But, Brubaker also made a point of showing other aspects of the character as well.

The New 52 Catwoman, by contrast, started with panels that simply showed parts of her body (breasts, butt, legs) long before we saw her face, and didn't even bother to give her meaningful dialog. Then, by the end, she ended up having sex with Batman for no clear reason other than it made for a sexy splash page at the end. The attempt to ramp up the sex appeal just for the sake of getting men to buy the comic made the book horrible in every other aspect.

I'm not suggesting that Azzarello's run is anywhere close to that extreme. In fact, few of my objections have to do with too much sex appeal. But there are parts of his run that I find problematic nonetheless. It doesn't prevent me from reading and enjoying the book each month, but it is a topic worth discussing, which is kind of the point of a forum.

Again, I don't think his goal is to be sexist. But it has always been at the core of Wonder Woman's character to be a symbol of strong and independent femininity. Marston could not have been more clear on this point when he created the character, and all of the most successful runs (not just in my opinion, check out any "best Wonder Woman stories" threads on these forums) have been those that have celebrated that aspect of Wonder Woman (Perez, Rucka, Simone). I think Azzarello has gotten away from that, and the book is suffering as a result.

I’ve seen comics where even I’d call it objectifying women and I can say DC has never come close to that standard of sexiness. Usually, objectifying, at least from a visual perspective, would be where an artist has clearly enhanced something like the breast or buttocks; the only comic that was hard to escape from that standard, but didn’t quite pass the threshold of objectifying the character, would have been Power Girl and that boob window. But, in DC comics, there was always a reason to view the buttocks or breast. Usually, objectifying, in the pornographic sense, would come into place when say one character focus on the breast of the female character and the artist proceeds with the other character’s focus. Sorry, there just hasn't ever really been a DC comic issue that even bordered that standard and that’s probably the problem with DC comics; Marvel knows/knew how to go borderline but never really cross that line. Whether than Chiang’s implied nudity, I’d point to the scene with zombie Ares in Gail Simone’s run that added that sexiness, but did not cross a certain threshold. The start of Rucka’s run was very good for me because Wonder Woman walked around the house with Ferdinand barefoot a whole lot. Such features with Rucka’s run was a starting point, but there was a lot of space to meet before it could have become objectification (or, I guess, a foot fetish comic), although I’d like Wonder Woman as a foot fetish comic. Believe me, DC has not come close to objectifying their characters. It’s actually a bit of a strain for me to objectively judge now, since I’ve seen my fair share of pornographic comics and material, but DC comics just simply has never really objectified their female characters.

Well, comics involving a female lead has just always had a certain level of sex appeal that’s been a part of the comics DNA and makeup, as absurd and troubling as it maybe from your perspective; remember, beauty in the eyes of the beholder; it all depended on that day and time, but, according to the standards of a certain time period, superhero comics sought to reach that period's standard of sexiness. The genre can address all of the other aspects to superhero comics, as well, while still preserving that inherent sex appeal state; it's choosing not to remove anything, according to what one group of fans may prefer over another group of fans; just try meeting everyone's preference where feasible and getting a lot more cheesecake is very feasible indeed; the current severe reduction is serving to squeeze a lot of fans like me away from DC comics for the other group. I think I’ve seen some of the Grimm’s Fairy Tales which was intended to be pornographic, but there’s plenty of space between that and Chiang’s portrayal of Wonder Woman that can be explored without crossing that threshold into objectifying.

I didn’t think you were calling Azzerello sexist, but some of the things you were pointing out as an example of a sexist portrayal such as Wonder Woman being surrounded by strong men and regular women. I think Wonder Woman being surrounded by men can serve a different purpose than automatically assuming that Azzerello, or any writer, for that matter, would have a sexual bias against women. The most obvious reason would be therapeutic and serving the purpose of getting Wonder Woman acclimated to an environment where she’s not completely surrounded by women; she’s also learning from the men; it has the purpose of humbling her and humanizing her, given her unique background that’s unnecessary with any of the other female heroes; or it highlights certain things about Wonder Woman's character (e.g. she's willing to get along with anyone, even if it has to be men). Also, Hera not automatically ascending to the throne. Funny you should mention the spirit of Marston’s run, when the spirit of his run also has bondage subtext; can’t completely remove what you don’t like, but include what you like, and it still be the spirit of his intentions for Wonder Woman.

#113 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (739 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17 said:

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@lilben42: Yes! In fact her role in Justice League may be bigger than in her own title. In WW she's a background character that has to be rescued all the time. She's had a two year mission of protecting Zola's baby and she's bumbled it all along the way. That baby would be dead by now if it weren't for the timely intervention of Hermes, Lennox and Orion. She doesn't even come up with her own plans, she's almost useless.

Although that's sort of hyperbole, those are actually very good features of Azzerello's run; Wonder Woman needs to rely on others some time to complete a mission; I think it seems enhanced, because Azzerello is moving so slowly; if you change anything Azzerello, don't change those features. The issue with me is that it's so much entangle in the Greek Pantheon and not her own rogues that Azzerello had ungraded and bettered (e.g. but don't go that other route and go focusing on making it Wonder Woman versus a female villain, forever). I'd enjoy a Wonder Woman story arc where she bumbled and needed help. Really gets away from that Emma Peel/Mary Sue stuff that some writers like Rucka did with the character; he was the worse, followed by Perez after about issue 24; Simone just had her too overpowered, where only Genocide was only able to hang; the perfect run that balanced a lot of that stuff out was Messner-Loebs' run; feels like he was yanked way too soon, but I also feel that way about Rucka's run, because he was really working with developing Dr. Psycho and Ferdinand.

How can you be an Azzarello fan and misspell his name that many times?

I'm not saying I want Diana to be an infallible mary sue, I'm saying I want her to be competent, there's a world of difference between the two.

#114 Posted by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (739 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

You seriously like the cold as ice poorly written by Geoff Johns in a stupid relationship with Superman and who punches first and asks questions later over the well written, meaningful plot driven, strong characterisation version of Azzarello's Wonder Woman? Riiight...

You wanna know what the funniest part is? This happens all the time with Wonder Woman fans. First it's "Rucka sucks, we want Perez!", then it was "Simone sucks, we want Rucka!" and now it is "Azzarello sucks, we want Simone!". Funniest part is that they used to hate how Johns wrote Wonder Woman, especially in stuff like Infinite Crisis. Now suddenly he's offering her best portrayal in the New 52!

Don't pin that on me, I always hated Simone's run and still do. I like Geof Johns' more recent depictions because, although they're not perfect (his Dina was a one note idiot when she was first introduced) he makes an attempt to accurately depict her power levels and supporting cast. You want a Steve Trevor you can respect? Read Johns' version. You want a badass Nu52 origin for Cheetah? Read Johns' version. You want an Etta Candy? Read John's version. You want to see Wonder Woman kick Hal's ass and incapacitate Superman? Read Johns' version. You miss Diana Prince? Read Superman.

If Azzarello would give us action and feats to sink our teeth into, without Wonder Woman having to share the glory with her hundreds of bastard brothers and cousins and if he could stop with the origin changes, unsolved mysteries and sexist bull$#*t and QUIT THE ANNOYING PUNS I might buy his version.

But he'd have to get a consistent, likeable, art team too though and that may be beyond his realm of influence.

#115 Posted by SmashBrawler (5736 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@smashbrawler said:

@lvenger said:

You seriously like the cold as ice poorly written by Geoff Johns in a stupid relationship with Superman and who punches first and asks questions later over the well written, meaningful plot driven, strong characterisation version of Azzarello's Wonder Woman? Riiight...

You wanna know what the funniest part is? This happens all the time with Wonder Woman fans. First it's "Rucka sucks, we want Perez!", then it was "Simone sucks, we want Rucka!" and now it is "Azzarello sucks, we want Simone!". Funniest part is that they used to hate how Johns wrote Wonder Woman, especially in stuff like Infinite Crisis. Now suddenly he's offering her best portrayal in the New 52!

Don't pin that on me, I always hated Simone's run and still do. I like Geof Johns' more recent depictions because, although they're not perfect (his Dina was a one note idiot when she was first introduced) he makes an attempt to accurately depict her power levels and supporting cast. You want a Steve Trevor you can respect? Read Johns' version. You want a badass Nu52 origin for Cheetah? Read Johns' version. You want an Etta Candy? Read John's version. You want to see Wonder Woman kick Hal's ass and incapacitate Superman? Read Johns' version. You miss Diana Prince? Read Superman.

If Azzarello would give us action and feats to sink our teeth into, without Wonder Woman having to share the glory with her hundreds of bastard brothers and cousins and if he could stop with the origin changes, unsolved mysteries and sexist bull$#*t and QUIT THE ANNOYING PUNS I might buy his version.

But he'd have to get a consistent, likeable, art team too though and that may be beyond his realm of influence.

There's always going to be exceptions. Nice to see that someone stays consistent though, you have no idea how many times I've seen people who hated Simone's run and then it somehow became one of the best runs on the character in their eyes.

#116 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: ruka sold more than arazzello,what story telling quality?,arazzello wonder woman is weak,she doesn't do much in her own comic she seems a supporting cast member,she can't finish most of her fights alone,it's pure trash.

#117 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@smashbrawler: false,ruka and simone had more support with fans than arazzello and the proof is that they sold more,john is a mess too,and the fight with katana will probably prove that again.

#118 Posted by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: Agree,New 52 just sucks,not just because wonder woman no feats,I'm dont like new 52 wonder woman story and art

#119 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: yes,she is a B list character in her own book.

#120 Posted by SmashBrawler (5736 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: Bro, I knew what I read and I have seen this before.

Sales matter very little since people have to buy the product they're gonna bitch about. Sure, some may just download it but there's obviously going to be a lot of people who either don't know how to download comics via internet, don't like it or still want to support their favorite character and don't want to see their book get cancelled.

#121 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (739 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: Bro, I knew what I read and I have seen this before.

Sales matter very little since people have to buy the product they're gonna bitch about. Sure, some may just download it but there's obviously going to be a lot of people who either don't know how to download comics via internet, don't like it or still want to support their favorite character and don't want to see their book get cancelled.

I'm sorry, I have to call bull$#*t on that last one. Wonder Woman will never get cancelled. We've been in far worse predicaments than we are right now and still the book didn't get cancelled. Trill Wonder Woman fans may only be roughly 27,000 strong, but it's enough to carry a title, even with umpteen reboots.

Azzarello won't get another penny from me. I won't be sold a product I hate and then be made fun of in the text. He's not cute, he's not funny, he's not clever or witty. What he is, is ruining my favorite character and I don't see the comedy in that.

#122 Posted by SmashBrawler (5736 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine said:

@smashbrawler said:

@gokuwarrior: Bro, I knew what I read and I have seen this before.

Sales matter very little since people have to buy the product they're gonna bitch about. Sure, some may just download it but there's obviously going to be a lot of people who either don't know how to download comics via internet, don't like it or still want to support their favorite character and don't want to see their book get cancelled.

I'm sorry, I have to call bull$#*t on that last one. Wonder Woman will never get cancelled. We've been in far worse predicaments than we are right now and still the book didn't get cancelled. Trill Wonder Woman fans may only be roughly 27,000 strong, but it's enough to carry a title, even with umpteen reboots.

Alright, fair point there. What I'm saying still stands though, because despite being part of DC's Trinity Wonder Woman has been a mediocre seller for quite some time, regardless of quality.

#123 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@smashbrawler: wonder woman had good sales specially the perez run,worldwide sales were very good in perez run,but she is no longer part of the trinity,she doesn't get the treatment that a real member of the trinity should get,and she doesn't sell anymore because DC doesn't care,they don't promote her properly,and give her a lot of trash in many events,letting her be the punching bag of street level characters while superman, batman,or even green lantern and flash save the day,if things will always be like this,she will never be a true A list character,she is iconic,and much more famous than many other characters,but comercial wise she is good anymore she lost all support from her company.

#124 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine: wonder woman had good sales specially the perez run,worldwide sales were very good in perez run,but she is no longer part of the trinity,she doesn't get the treatment that a real member of the trinity should get,and she doesn't sell anymore because DC doesn't care,they don't promote her properly,and give her a lot of trash in many events,letting her be the punching bag of street level characters while superman, batman,or even green lantern and flash save the day,if things will always be like this,she will never be a true A list character,she is iconic,and much more famous than many other characters,but comercial wise she is good anymore she lost all support from her company.

#125 Posted by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@scorpio_cassadine: @smashbrawler: @gokuwarrior: I'm sure DC has sexism,I'm creater a thread even want to found it,but the most of people just dont accept,yes,wonder woman for a long time ago,she is mediocre seller,not just her,found all heroine comic book,Male hero comic book always better than heroine comic book,story,power level,feats,or Sales

#126 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

If I recall, in order to maintain their hold on the rights to the character they have to keep a regular comic book going - or publish a Wonder Woman title every so often (I don't know all the details, but it's something like that). So there will always be a title, even if it doesn't sell well. The comic might not make them very much money, but the intellectual property rights are worth a fortune, so they'll do what they have to do to keep them.

#127 Posted by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

Not only wonder woman

powergirl,supergirl,etc these heroine comic book always is mediocre seller,superman always better than them

Male hero better than heroine,even wonder woman,who is most famous heroine,DC still let her weak,that not a news,in the 1968s,DC let wonder woman no any power,New 52 just do it again,though she look like has "power"but in fact no feats and weak,Honestly,wonder woman vs katana was happen is very reasonable,people think this is silly but they are not check new 52 wonder woman feats,if you check it,you really cant found a point/scan to prove this is silly fight

#128 Edited by Outside_85 (9031 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer:

  1. Didn't Batman have sex with 3 different women by #2 across different titles?
  2. Not if you've read WML's Contest and onwards. Hippolyta will do what she has to if she thinks Diana's life is threatened, including moving other Amazons into harms way.
  3. Normally with this argument I will point at how Azzarello is a long-term planner and that as long as we don't have the full picture, we really can't judge.
  4. :)
  5. I honestly don't see that, but I never felt that was the case.
  6. While that is true, it is something that Diana consciously made the choice to be there. Perhaps not so much a victim as she was making a personal sacrifice. Also, until she was nearly swallowed, she was doing fine.
  7. I think it was meant to be a demonstration of Diana's power, to show Orion she could do what she wanted. Granted it was perhaps a little annoying she had to sink to Orion's level, but as we saw; Orion doesn't take hints.
  8. Well the point is that Diana's mission is to ultimately be the shield in front of Zola and Zeke, protecting them from the stuff Hera and the others would throw at them.

I somehow think the difference between Azzarello's Wonder Woman and the likes of the Batman and Superman books that irritates some people, is that unlike them, Diana's support cast has mostly consisted of capable people who will readily get involved in fights and have the power to make a difference in most of them. Like if Superman and Batman had this sort of support cast it could consist of:

Superman; Starfire and Martian Manhunter, infrequent appearances by Maxima

Batman; Lady Shiva and Katana, and infrequent appearances by Deathstroke.

And while it is the books of the title characters, it's a bit much to demand the supports just sit around.

@gokuwarrior: Please show me a fight from Azzarello's Wonder Woman where she asked for help.

#129 Posted by Lvenger (19984 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: You're not giving me SPECIFICS. How much more did Rucka's Wonder Woman outsell Azzarello's? Besides things were better back then than they were at the time of the New 52. And I have to disagree on that last part. Though Diana doesn't show up as much as she should, she is excellently portrayed alongside her supporting cast. There are much, much worse books in the New 52 and Azzarello has made Wonder Woman my favourite New 52 title, beating out Superman, Batman and Green Lantern titles alike. All of which I prefer to Wonder Woman overall

Don't pin that on me, I always hated Simone's run and still do. I like Geof Johns' more recent depictions because, although they're not perfect (his Dina was a one note idiot when she was first introduced) he makes an attempt to accurately depict her power levels and supporting cast. You want a Steve Trevor you can respect? Read Johns' version. You want a badass Nu52 origin for Cheetah? Read Johns' version. You want an Etta Candy? Read John's version. You want to see Wonder Woman kick Hal's ass and incapacitate Superman? Read Johns' version. You miss Diana Prince? Read Superman.

If Azzarello would give us action and feats to sink our teeth into, without Wonder Woman having to share the glory with her hundreds of bastard brothers and cousins and if he could stop with the origin changes, unsolved mysteries and sexist bull$#*t and QUIT THE ANNOYING PUNS I might buy his version.

But he'd have to get a consistent, likeable, art team too though and that may be beyond his realm of influence.

They're rubbish mate. Johns' Justice League run is full of hacked off rubbish. Eta Candy has barely any panel time, Trevors whined over losing Diana for a while in the sexcond storyline, Cheetah was overpowered as hell and her origin was screwed over. The Hal fight and Superman being hit (not incapacitated. Take my word on that, I'm a battle forum veteran) I'll give but let me tell you something. Action does not make Wonder Woman a better character. You know what I find way more annoying than Azzarello's version? A Wonder Woman who leaps into battle, doesn't seem interested in peace at all and delivers cold as ice lines about killing whilst in a relationship with Superman. How, may I ask, is that anyway near a good portrayal of Wonder Woman? And Chiang's art is beautiful. The rotating artists wasn't handled for a while but now Sudzuka is a fitting replacement.

Thus, I conclude that whilst it's fine not to like Azzarello's Wonder Woman, Johns' interpretation is a much worse fate for the character. Take my word that recently he's ruined my favourite character too via the Trinity War. Johns does that far more than Azzarello.

#130 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: she didn't ask for help but she got help everytime that she was about to get owned,she sucks now and she is a flop,R.I.P true wonder woman(1941-2010).

#131 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: arazzello's wonder woman is a supporting character in her own book and a weaklin that can't finish most of her fights alone,ruka run outsold arazzello's run,specially outside the US,nobody knows that wonder woman has a new run outside the US,in latin american and spain,last time i checked 2 months ago you could only find until issue 8,LOL,now wonder woman is the queen of flops,and this is coming from a loyal fan that has been supporting her for 21 years,and john's cheetah wasn't overpowered,she was always supposed to be fast and strong enough to go head to head with characters like flash,wonder woman and superman,after being the punching bag of many street level characters because of stupid writters,it was nice to see cheetah being written as a powerhouse again.

#133 Edited by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Johns and Azzarello both is sucks..one ,i dont like art, two,wonder woman got a shame again

#134 Posted by Lvenger (19984 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: arazzello's wonder woman is a supporting character in her own book and a weaklin that can't finish most of her fights alone,ruka run outsold arazzello's run,specially outside the US,nobody knows that wonder woman has a new run outside the US,in latin american and spain,last time i checked 2 months ago you could only find until issue 8,LOL,now wonder woman is the queen of flops,and this is coming from a loyal fan that has been supporting her for 21 years,and john's cheetah wasn't overpowered,she was always supposed to be fast and strong enough to go head to head with characters like flash,wonder woman and superman,after being the punching bag of many street level characters because of stupid writters,it was nice to see cheetah being written as a powerhouse again.

Again I ask for specifics. Unless you back up your claim, I'm just going to discount it as false. So back it up or risk it being discarded. I'm not accepting it unless you give me numbers. I know Azzarello's numbers on sales but not Rucka's.

That's a fair point with the Cheetah now you mention it but my other points to scorpio on comparing Azzarello's and Johns' Wonder Woman still stand. It's a far weaker take on Wonder Woman than what Azzarello has done and distorts the character way more than Azzarello. It barely pays any attention to her mythology let alone her backstory and supporting cast. I fail to see how that's better than what Azzarello's doing.

#135 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: you can cherck the sales in other topic made by "hulk26" months ago,look it up.

i didn't say that flophns version of wonder flop is better than flopello's version,but i liked that he made cheetah a powerhouse again.

i want this run to die,and sorry i don't care if you love it,i don't care about the new fans of this run,you aren't a true wonder woman fan so you can't know how i feel,i have been supporting wonder woman for 21 years,i have been with her through everything,inlcuding all the trash that she has been going through,the loeb run and other runs created by crappy writters,her miserable defeat by storm in that stupid crossover,her drop in sales from the last 5 years,her crappy TV pilot,i have been there through everything,watching her turn into a flop,a joke,a B list character with a fake A-list character written in her forehead,like if people is stupid enough to think she is still an A-list character,i've been there supporting her through all this trash and i'm tired of it,if DC is not willing to spend money on her to promote her properly,then at least they could writte her properly,respect her instead of letting her and her villans get humiliated by street level characters every 3 seconds,in every event,or make her be the character that is there,just there and do nothing important,they could stop using her like the punching bag that gets all the shit that they would never give to superman,batman or green lantern,at least they could do that,but no,DC always outdoes itself when it comes to kill wonder woman's reputation as a main character and as a powerhouse,the fight with katana will be the new page of that history book of bad writtin moments and mediocrity that they always give to wonder woman and her villans,so stop saying that i'm close minded,or trolling,or that i don't have good reasons to complain,you haven't been there supporting her through all the trash for 21 years.

#136 Posted by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: DC has sexism like i say

dont be depression,I'm follow with you

#137 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio
#138 Posted by Outside_85 (9031 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@outside_85: she didn't ask for help but she got help everytime that she was about to get owned,she sucks now and she is a flop,R.I.P true wonder woman(1941-2010).

When was she about to be 'owned' outside of the fight with Hades?

#139 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: she was about to get owned against hermes and the first born,the ridiculous chick i mean god got owned by an arrow but he was too much for wonder woman,wonder woman is now wonder flop.

#140 Posted by Lvenger (19984 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: you can cherck the sales in other topic made by "hulk26" months ago,look it up.

You'll forgive me for looking elsewhere for sales then. That guy is someone who's had problems with me for some time. And the feeling is mutual. He's a piece of work IMO. Not particularly nice to those who disagree with him.

i want this run to die,and sorry i don't care if you love it,i don't care about the new fans of this run,you aren't a true wonder woman fan so you can't know how i feel,i have been supporting wonder woman for 21 years,i have been with her through everything,inlcuding all the shit that she has been going through,the loeb run and other runs created by crappy writters,her miserable defeat by storm in that stupid crossover,her drop in sales from the last 5 years,her crappy TV pilot,i have been there through everything,watching her turn into a flop,a joke,a B list character with a fake A-list character written in her forehead,like if people is stupid enough to think she is still an A-list character,i've been there supporting her through all this shit and i'm tired of it,if DC is not willing to spend money on her to promote her properly,then at least they could writte her properly,respect her instead of letting her and her villans get humiliated by street level characters every 3 seconds,in every event,or make her be the character that is there,just there and do nothing important,they could stop using her like the punching bag that gets all the shit that they would never give to superman,batman or green lantern,at least they could do that,but no,DC always outdoes itself when it comes to kill wonder woman's reputation as a main character and as a powerhouse,the fight with katana will be the new page of that history book of bad writtin moments and mediocrity that they always give to wonder woman and her villans,so stop saying that i'm close minded,or trolling,or that i don't have good reasons to complain,you haven't been there supporting her through all the shit for 21 years.

Funny because I'd like this run to carry on and for Azzarello to show what he can do. I won't say you're trolling but you are being close minded about the benefits of Azzarello's run. And whilst I'll grant you've been a Wonder Woman fan longer than I have, I find it very absurd and uncallled for not to call me a true Wonder Woman fan. It is more of a recent liking, I'll grant you that but she's my 6th favourite superhero and comic book character. And unlike you, I actually back up my claims with evidence: http://www.comicvine.com/profile/lvenger/lists/my-100-favourite-superheroes/17520 So please tell, how am I not a Wonder Woman fan when I rate her that highly out of my favourite superheroes? I'm familiar with her history and it's why I love the character. But Azzarello's run is something that can add to her history and mythology of why Wonder Woman is a good character. And with that, I'll take my leave of this thread due to the hostility of the anti Azzarello brigade.

#141 Posted by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: DC always do it.. except William Moulton Marston of wonder woman,wonder woman always has

ridiculously low showing,and you never see same thing happen in the superman,why?

#142 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: you aren't a true wonder woman fan because flopello's wonder woman isn't the true wonder woman,she is a bad mix,it's a god drama with an unborn baby similar to xena's season 5 with the teenage problems that a pregnant yong woman has to face while dealing with ugly monsters that seem to come out from a buffy episode,and then the name wonder woman in the middle but she isn't the main character in the book,she talks and talks and barely do something,it takes 5 issue for her to do something and most of the tiome someone get into her fights when she is about to get owned,she can't even finish a fight alone most of the time.

#143 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: perez,ruka and simone gave great feats,but the DC company as a whole doesn't respect her,outside her comic she got the worst treatmen,with her villans is the same.

#144 Posted by Outside_85 (9031 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@outside_85: she was about to get owned against hermes and the first born,the ridiculous chick i mean god got owned by an arrow but he was too much for wonder woman,wonder woman is now wonder flop.

You call the fight with Hermes 'getting owned'? That's just silly because as far as I can see they were almost equal for five pages worth of fighting, Orion only happened to boom in the moment Hermes had an advantage. And yeah, he got hit with an arrow, big flipping deal, you don't see how far away that thing was when Hermes pushed Zola out of the way.

And really, you moan about the First Born being horrendously more powerful than anything else in this series as the primary enemy?

#145 Edited by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: Agree,at least new 52 wonder woman i dont think this is William Moulton Marston Ideal incarnation

Like i say,not only wonder woman ,if you see DC comic book,almost all of powerful female feats is poor,like supergirl or powergirl,both is stronger

#146 Posted by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Honestly, I do not know what is the meaning of this controversy

New 52 wonder woman is depowered,Her battle scenes like kung fu films rather than a super-speed, super strength of Goddess,and now,she got a great opponent,a normal woman

#147 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: if hermes is so fast,gettig tagged by an arrow going at normal speed shouldn't happen,the first born has no impressive feats and he tagged wonder woman like if she had no super speed at all,the run is trash.

#148 Edited by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: Read Pre-52 comic ,even she most powerful of time,she best strength feats just cooperation feat,we never see a really powerful feats by herself

#149 Posted by Outside_85 (9031 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: @powerwoman: Are you really going to start arguing with me about the garbage of someone having superspeed and still taking hits? What the hell is wrong with you two?

#150 Posted by PowerWoman (3378 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: Wonder woman has super-speed,writer isnt give her good showing,that why i dont like this wirter

if you see superman no super-strength to struggle lift 1 tons,i dont think this is good comic book for superman,even this story is good