Posted by lilben42 (2531 posts) 1 year, 1 month ago

Poll: Azzerello? Leave or Stay (172 votes)

Stay 65%
Leave 15%
I don't care 20%

I personally think his book is amazing, and can't wait to see where he takes us. At the beginning I had some complaints but I easily got over it by the 11th issue.

#51 Posted by darknightspideyfanboy (1231 posts) - - Show Bio

A funny opinion on the amazon rape/kill thing

#52 Edited by PowerWoman (3347 posts) - - Show Bio
#53 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio
#54 Posted by PowerWoman (3347 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: I'm just feel strange,why DC general not give wonder woman or supergirl good strength showing

#55 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: i think first we need a good wonder woman story again,good feats will come whith a good story,a good strory is the perfect way to show good feats,first we need someone that can writte wonder woman properly,some that understands what wonder woman is all about.

#56 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: i think first we need a good wonder woman story again,good feats will come whith a good story,a good strory is the perfect way to show good feats,first we need someone that can writte wonder woman properly,some that understands what wonder woman is all about.

Agreed, although to some extent Azzarello has left quite a mess for whoever's next to clean up. Azzarello has done very little to show Diana's place in the world, and it might be difficult to build up that part of the character without the Amazons - they were always the foundation of her mission.

Hopefully they'll bring in someone with the talent and creativity to pull it off, though they'll probably just reboot her... again.

#57 Posted by PowerWoman (3347 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: i think first we need a good wonder woman story again,good feats will come whith a good story,a good strory is the perfect way to show good feats,first we need someone that can writte wonder woman properly,some that understands what wonder woman is all about.

THIS

#58 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer: i think they should rebot her,the thing is that for almost 2 years wonder woman seemed to be apart from the rest of the DC universe,and you know what i would have done?,i would have made the first arc with wonder woman being apart from the rest of DC,introducing the character in the 40s,in war world 2,with a more mature plot and better villans,with powers helping the nazi,so the legend of wonder woman is born in the 40s,the mistery lady that came from other world to help the earth,then in the next arc i would have introduced her in the modern world,where she meets vanessa,julia and the JL after the gods made her come back to the mortal world to stop ares,that would be the perfect way to make all of wonder woman's eras coexist in one new run,and goodbye to all of the continuity problems of the past,in one run we would have all of wonder woman's eras coexisting as one.

#59 Posted by PowerWoman (3347 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: New 52 wonder woman is almost independent DC of other parts.I don't know what will happen after her development

#60 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio
#61 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (33084 posts) - - Show Bio

Jesus, this thread.... *shakes head*

#62 Posted by lilben42 (2531 posts) - - Show Bio

@fodigg: If the writer should stay.

#63 Posted by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio
#64 Posted by lilben42 (2531 posts) - - Show Bio

Man, I didn't know Wonder Woman fans were this bad.

#65 Posted by Lvenger (19373 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilben42: They're very picky. Only a few runs such as Perez and Rucka have gained anything close to universal assent on what a good Wonder Woman story is. Even with the quality of story telling Azzarello is giving, some die hard Wonder Woman fans don't like his changes. Some I get but others seem silly. And the claim for a good story needing high end feats is hilariously bad. Still, the votes show a 62% lead for Azzarello. That speaks louder than the complaints mounted against him.

#66 Posted by lilben42 (2531 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I mean I admit I have a few complaints but I'm not going to hate his book over that. Those complaints were easily overshadowed by the amazing storytelling and twists in the story. I loved Perez run on Wonder Woman and I love Azzerello's.

#67 Posted by Lvenger (19373 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilben42: Same here. Perez and Rucka's runs are better but Azzarello has crafted my favourite New 52 series with consistently good issues. I missed out on it due to Justice League for a while so once I swapped out for WW, I was way more impressed.

#68 Edited by Pokeysteve (8258 posts) - - Show Bio
#69 Posted by RayRay1127 (42 posts) - - Show Bio

LEAVE already!!!!! This storyline is ridiculous in it's length! For as long as this s**t has been going on, NOTHING has really happened! Azz had no interest in "Wonder Woman" (I mean the REAL WW, who fights for peace and has a loving mother and sisters and a beautiful utopia to go home to) and it shows. Each issue is stunted, WW is basically the muscle behind a HUGE cast of mostly un-interesting, disposable characters, and ENOUGH WITH THE GODS!!! A 2 year storyline with so little resolution is not good writing. It's the work of an egotist who thinks he's fantastic. Once again, I say PLEASE LEAVE! I miss WONDER WOMAN!

#70 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: the sales prove that arazzello's run is a flop,perez and ruka run sold more than his run,that's the ultimate proof that shows what most of the fans think.

#71 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@rayray1127: and arazzello is also sexist considering that in most of wonder woman's fights he needs help to fight her foes,she hasn't fought alone in most of her fights,what the hell?,so many things are wrong with this run.

#72 Edited by akintoussaint (106 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: This the same title in which WW threaten to crush Orions balls if he made another pass at her.Then proceeded to to clothesline him when he didn't listen.Come on dude really?

if you don't like the book you don't like the book.But claiming that a writer is sexist because he doesn't write the character the way you want him to is fucking childish.

#73 Posted by darknightspideyfanboy (1231 posts) - - Show Bio
#74 Edited by akintoussaint (106 posts) - - Show Bio
#75 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

I agree with @gokuwarrior - there is a lot of sexism in Azzarello's run. And I say this even though I liked the first half of the run, and don't hate the second half.

Since I know that any time anyone levels charges of sexism on these boards it tends to get people riled up for some reason, let me just start by saying that I don't think that these comics are horrible or evil, or that Azzarello and/or his readers are bad people for writing/reading them (I read them, myself). There have actually been several aspects of the run that I would applaud, especially the artwork, which has never devolved into cheesecake and has depicted Wonder Woman as both strong and feminine - something comics needs a lot more of.

However, there are some aspects of his run that are problematic. For instance:

  1. The first time Wonder Woman appeared she was naked for the first several panels for no apparent reason. There is no reason that she had to be in bed when Zola appeared, and no reason that she has to sleep without any clothes on. It's not as bad as issue #1 of Catwoman, but it does raise the question of why DC feels the need to introduce two of its female solo books with the characters unclothed.
  2. The change to Wonder Woman's origin wasn't inherently sexist, but dedicating the first major story arc to the revelation that a Goddess (Hera) and a powerful Queen of an all-female society (Hippolyta) would spend their time fighting over a man (Zeus) belittles them as strong, independent characters.
  3. The changes to the Amazons were needless and took a long running theme of the Wonder Woman character - the beauty and harmony of a society of women - and turned it into a group of spiteful, lying, man-raping baby killers. That's pretty damned sexist.
  4. On that same note, the existence of the Amazons was another strong aspect of the feminist elements of the character - the notion that women can take strength from each other without the need for a man. Robbing Wonder Woman of that, then surrounding her with a male supporting cast, undoes all of that. I realize, of course, that she has Hera and Zola, but...
  5. Hera and Zola are weak and utterly helpless, while the male supporting characters are almost as powerful as Wonder Woman herself. That's a serious imbalance. Add to that that of all the characters vying for Zeus's throne in the first 12 issues, Hera was the only woman, and was the only one who suffers long term punishment (in the form of losing her powers - the only other characters to suffer long term ramifications were the Amazons) as a result of her actions, even though she probably had the most logical claim to the throne.
  6. Arguably the only story arc that really featured Wonder Woman front and center was also one in which she was Hades was essentially trying to rape her (I know there was never any overt sex, but the notion of a woman being forced to marry someone against her will is a pretty transparent metaphor). For the record, I thought that was one of the best story arcs of the series, but I'd like to see Azzarello make Wonder Woman the star of the book without feeling the need to victimize her.
  7. Having Wonder Woman kiss Orion could be taken a few different ways, but I found it problematic that, of all the ways she could respond to him and his offensive behavior, Azzarello decided that she would on some level reward him with a kiss. Seriously, how many women in the real world would respond to someone being a jerk by making out with him? The only real explanation for it is that it allowed DC to put the kiss on the cover and thus sell Wonder Woman via sex appeal (because apparently all the covers with her kissing Superman aren't enough).
  8. This has already been commented on at length, but the very fact that Wonder Woman feels like a supporting character in her own book shows an overall lack of respect for her as a powerful and compelling character in her own right. For the past several issues Lennox, Orion, Apollo, Hermes, and The Firstborn have all, arguably, been more important/central to the story than Wonder Woman has been, and, surprise, surprise, they are all male.

#76 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@akintoussaint: yes the same wonder woman who threaten many people but when it comes to turn words into actions,NOTHING,she has had help in most of her fights,there is always someone saving her ass,eris saved her ass against hades,orion saved her ass from hermes,then lennox helped her to fight the first born,then orion saved her ass again,of course it's sexiest,she is supposed to be powerful but arazzello writtes her in such a way,that she can't finish a fight alone most of the time,and now it seems she'll have a hard time against katana in the trinity war event,wonder woman getting the low parts of the contract as usual.

#77 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer: she is supposed to be powerful but arazzello writtes her in such a way,that she can't finish a fight alone most of the time,and now it seems she'll have a hard time against katana in the trinity war event,wonder woman getting the low parts of the contract as usual.

#78 Posted by PowerWoman (3347 posts) - - Show Bio

@akintoussaint: Stop call gokuwarrior "fucking"

you can dont agree his point,but you not need speaking rudely

#79 Edited by Dernman (14975 posts) - - Show Bio

@akintoussaint: @powerwoman: No one called anyone that word just his actions. Either way even though I don't personally care if you swear it is against the rules to do so.because it's a family site. Please edit your posts and refrain from doing so again.

Can't believe I'm that guy now. I hate that guy.

#80 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio
#81 Posted by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio
#82 Posted by Dernman (14975 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior: The guy who tries to police things even though it's not his job to do so.

#83 Edited by akintoussaint (106 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer: .

1)So she sleeps in the nude.How is that sexism.Plus Sex appeal as always been a big part of catwoman. Sure them having sex on a rooftop was a bit much.But above showing that catwoman loves having sex i don't see how that is problematic.

2) Considering that Hera was a very jealous woman in the Greek mythos. This actually makes sense.I find it laughable that writers would take this goddess and try to make her a some kind of role moral for women

3)Not touching this one

4) But WW is still showed to have these beliefs The very fact that she'll holds those beliefs after learning the secret of the Amazons actually give the character more depth.Which is what Azzarello was gunning for.

5)Agreed more female characters are need.

6)Yea that's fucked up. Thats why Hades is the bad guy.

7)Not sex appeal as much as a big *fuck you* to the Superman/Woman relationship.

8)Assuming this is true.This will only make a more satisfying when Wonder Woman overcomes them.

#84 Posted by akintoussaint (106 posts) - - Show Bio
#85 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@akintoussaint: again arazzello's wonder woman threaten many people but when it comes to turn words into actions,NOTHING,she has had help in most of her fights,there is always someone saving her ass,eris saved her ass against hades,orion saved her ass from hermes,then lennox helped her to fight the first born,then orion saved her ass again,of course it's sexiest,she is supposed to be powerful but arazzello writtes her in such a way,that she can't finish a fight alone most of the time,and now it seems she'll have a hard time against katana(street level character) in the trinity war event,wonder woman getting the low parts of the contract as usual.

#86 Posted by Outside_85 (8735 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer:

  1. Azzarello explained it as Diana just being entirely confident and comfortable about herself to sleep in the nude.
  2. Hippolyta mentions that Hera's temper is nothing short of legendary, and a fact, which it is in the myths.
  3. Perhaps, but it's not like he wrote that out of a spite and hatred.
  4. Paradise Island and the Amazons have been blown up and vanished something like 7 times since COIE, this is just another of those.
  5. Diana is by far the most powerful of the cast in the first 12 issues, Lennox couldnt even dent Artemis and Hermes was crippled throughout most of the issues. It's only with the addition of Orion that she seems to have a physical equal, and we haven't even seen her power-up when near him. All the males are there, but they never get into the fights because Diana 'needs' the help, they get into them because they want to.
  6. The problem with not ever victimizing her means you don't get the sense she is in danger, which can end up being pretty boring.
  7. The kiss wasn't one of love.
  8. As Azzarello described it; Diana is the calm in the eye of the storm.
Online
#87 Edited by gokuwarrior (4368 posts) - - Show Bio

@outside_85: like i said to the other user,arazzello's wonder woman threaten many people but when it comes to turn words into actions,NOTHING,she has had help in most of her fights,there is always someone saving her ass,eris saved her ass against hades,orion saved her ass from hermes,then lennox helped her to fight the first born,then orion saved her ass again,of course it's sexiest,she is supposed to be powerful but arazzello writtes her in such a way,that she can't finish a fight alone most of the time,and now it seems she'll have a hard time against katana(street level character) in the trinity war event,wonder woman getting the low parts of the contract as usual.

#88 Edited by dshipp17 (981 posts) - - Show Bio

@akintoussaint: As one who has tried to hold a civil debate with this poster, I can tell you that everything he disagrees with that involves a male interpreting or describing a female has to constitute sexism; than, when he loses the debate, someone has to be trolling. I don't want to come across as trying to be rude, but a lot of what he says are downers associated with Azzarello's run seems to be just nick picking for the sake of argument; they're basically non-issues and should be dismissed; and the complete lack of sex appeal in the art is actually the turn off associated with this Wonder Woman run, as it's supposed to be a superhero comic; such demonstrates that DC has thought it advantageous to internalize and adjust the execution of the Wondeer Woman comic (and female lead comics in general) based on these non-issues that just saps all of attributes that should be creating enjoyment of superhero comic books; it's certainly waned my interest in Wonder Woman, starting in 2010, and has ultimately resulted in my non-subscription to Wonder Woman by the end of 2012, when before, I had subscribed annually to Wonder Woman in specific; as long as this persist and Wonder Woman has to be locked with Superman, Steve Trevor, or someone so similar, like Nemesis (or, Batman, for similar reasons), I think I'll have to withhold my subscription dollars and perhaps start ignoring DC's brand altogether; I'm really searching Marvel, as a past interested fan there, and, with Wolverine and the X-Men, and Captain Marvel, for starters, I'm latching on to Marvel, but they seem to be falling into this pattern of reduced sex appeal, also; but, really can't say until I've sampled Marvel a lot more; if you don't want any sex appeal at all, just go and pick up a non-superhero graphic novel to enjoy, as the reciprocal to one suggesting that one should go view porn, just because you're asking that a superhero comic have the usual visual depictions expected within a superhero comic in terms of sex appeal; for people who don't like the sex appeal or at least claim that, for the sake of nick picking, superhero comics is probably just a genre that you might want to consider avoiding in the future.

#89 Posted by PowerWoman (3347 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman: What?Is "fuck"this word is legitimate in there?

I dont understand what you think,you hate me?what?

#90 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer:

  1. Azzarello explained it as Diana just being entirely confident and comfortable about herself to sleep in the nude.
  2. Hippolyta mentions that Hera's temper is nothing short of legendary, and a fact, which it is in the myths.
  3. Perhaps, but it's not like he wrote that out of a spite and hatred.
  4. Paradise Island and the Amazons have been blown up and vanished something like 7 times since COIE, this is just another of those.
  5. Diana is by far the most powerful of the cast in the first 12 issues, Lennox couldnt even dent Artemis and Hermes was crippled throughout most of the issues. It's only with the addition of Orion that she seems to have a physical equal, and we haven't even seen her power-up when near him. All the males are there, but they never get into the fights because Diana 'needs' the help, they get into them because they want to.
  6. The problem with not ever victimizing her means you don't get the sense she is in danger, which can end up being pretty boring.
  7. The kiss wasn't one of love.
  8. As Azzarello described it; Diana is the calm in the eye of the storm.
  1. That's fine, but as the very first image of her in the New 52 I find that explanation suspect. I don't remember Batman or Superman having to get naked at the start of their books to prove that they're confident.
  2. I agree that it makes sense for Hera to act that way. But it's a huge change in Hippolyta's character.
  3. As I said in my disclaimer - I don't think Azzarello is a bad guy who's conscious goal is to be sexist, I'm just saying that that is what many of his choices lead to. I wish he was more cognizant of it.
  4. True. But to do so at the start of the series is to try to make it established canon until another reboot, which is a bit different. Still, I take your point.
  5. Again, I agree to a point. The first twelve issues were the best and featured Wonder Woman a lot more. It's since then that she seems to be taking a back seat.
  6. I agree, and as I said I liked that story quite a bit. The point I was trying to make is that if Wonder Woman were consistently powerful and independent then a story like that every once in a while is fine. In my opinion, though, that is the only story arc that was really about Wonder Woman (the first arc was about Hippolyta/the Amazons, the later arcs have been about Orion and the The Firstborn), and she is the victim in it. I find it odd that his only Wonder Woman focused story places her in the victim role.
  7. Exactly, it made no sense. Which is why it shouldn't have happened. Kissing someone is not an effective way to show him that he's being a jerk. Quite the opposite, in fact.
  8. In other words, utterly passive. What I loved about the Perez run was that Wonder Woman didn't always turn everything into a fight - she tried to settle things peacefully. But, she was still taking a very active role in the process. What is different in Azzarello's run is that she doesn't really do much of anything (at least since issue 12 or so).
#91 Posted by Dernman (14975 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman:

What?Is "fuck"this word is legitimate in there?

You can't say that word. It's against the rules here.

I dont understand what you think,you hate me?what?

I don't hate you.

#92 Posted by dmessmer (365 posts) - - Show Bio

@dshipp17: First, I'd just like to clarify that it was someone else who had experience interacting with you that suggested you were a troll. I simply stopped our debate because we were going in circles.

@dshipp17 said:

for people who don't like the sex appeal or at least claim that, for the sake of nick picking, superhero comics is probably just a genre that you might want to consider avoiding in the future.

It is exactly this notion that bothers me so much. I'm fine with superhero comics having sex appeal as one possible element, and if it makes sense within the story. But the notion that it must have it is absurd and troubling. There is so much more that the genre has to offer, and there are so many examples that support my point that I don't even know where to begin. If boobs and nudity are all you're after, pick up a copy of Grimm's Fairy Tales (the comics version) and go nuts, but I don't think there's anything wrong with holding superhero comics to a different standard.

There's also an important difference between sex appeal and objectification. Granted, it can be a thin and often subjective line, but the difference is there nonetheless.

For instance, Ed Brubaker's run on Catwoman had plenty of sex appeal, and was a wonderful comic - it made sense for the character and furthered the story. I'd even go so far as to say that a Catwoman comic without sex appeal is a bad idea - sexiness is intrinsic to the character. But, Brubaker also made a point of showing other aspects of the character as well.

The New 52 Catwoman, by contrast, started with panels that simply showed parts of her body (breasts, butt, legs) long before we saw her face, and didn't even bother to give her meaningful dialog. Then, by the end, she ended up having sex with Batman for no clear reason other than it made for a sexy splash page at the end. The attempt to ramp up the sex appeal just for the sake of getting men to buy the comic made the book horrible in every other aspect.

I'm not suggesting that Azzarello's run is anywhere close to that extreme. In fact, few of my objections have to do with too much sex appeal. But there are parts of his run that I find problematic nonetheless. It doesn't prevent me from reading and enjoying the book each month, but it is a topic worth discussing, which is kind of the point of a forum.

Again, I don't think his goal is to be sexist. But it has always been at the core of Wonder Woman's character to be a symbol of strong and independent femininity. Marston could not have been more clear on this point when he created the character, and all of the most successful runs (not just in my opinion, check out any "best Wonder Woman stories" threads on these forums) have been those that have celebrated that aspect of Wonder Woman (Perez, Rucka, Simone). I think Azzarello has gotten away from that, and the book is suffering as a result.

#93 Edited by divingfalcon713 (282 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer: I never really saw that first image of her sleeping naked to be sexist. I feel like Cliff Chiang drew her masterfully in a setting where many other artists would have gone out of their way to sexualize her. Instead, Chiang drew it without any of the stereotypical cheesecake in a natural situation. Also, her sleeping naked may just be a product of her culture.

#94 Edited by lilben42 (2531 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer:

I'm pretty sure I've seen Batman and Superman in their underwear in the bed before. Plus I've seen a comic with Wonder Woman naked in Themyscira post crisis. He's probably just making it real. The amazons probably sleep nude everyday.

#95 Posted by Z3RO180 (6471 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought WW fans loved havering him on the title ?

#96 Posted by lilben42 (2531 posts) - - Show Bio

I think this is the problems with fans these days. You can't do anything without having them find some internal meaning that contradicts the character. Like seriously just read the book. There was this complaint that WW shouldn't use guns. It was one time! It's not like she keeps it on her belt. Another complaint was that WW is always tricked. She was only tricked twice. And it's just.... Oh man anyway he tries to add on a twist to the story and it turns into some big thing when it really shouldn't be. Like Lvenger said earlier fans are just picky and some complaints are understandable.

#97 Posted by lilben42 (2531 posts) - - Show Bio

@dmessmer: Her and Orion kissing wasn't supposed to make sense. Remember it was during that WTF month.

I don't feel that Diana is a supporting character so maybe that's just preference. Diana took in Hera and didn't even try to get back at her. She also avoided fighting that wind girl. She also tried talking Hermes to giving her the baby. She tries to settle things.

#98 Posted by Billy Batson (57969 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilben42 said:

Man, I didn't know Wonder Woman fans were this bad.

Lol, you haven't seen anything. You should go to CBR if you want to see bad fanboys.

BB

#99 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (727 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm sick of having to read Wonder Woman in the store, my lcs is cool, but they'll eventually start giving me dirty looks.

Luckily between JL and the new Superman/Wonder Woman series I can avoid Azzarello's sucky version and still get my WW fix.

#100 Edited by SCORPIO_CASSADINE (727 posts) - - Show Bio

@gokuwarrior said:

@dmessmer: she is supposed to be powerful but arazzello writtes her in such a way,that she can't finish a fight alone most of the time,and now it seems she'll have a hard time against katana in the trinity war event,wonder woman getting the low parts of the contract as usual.

Go get 'em Goku! "Tell 'em why you're mad son, tell 'em why you're mad!" < Puff Daddy/P Diddy quote