An example of how I would re-package Dr. Poison as a man?

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jphulk26

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I´ve argued on the message board that sometimes the reason WW´s classical villains don´t work as well as they should is because some of their gimmicks would best suit men. I believe the best example of this has to be Dr. poison who was actually originally a man, but turned out to be a woman in the end. Anyway I think Dr. poison would work so much better as a man, and she does have a great gimmick, but somehow I feel it doesn´t fit a woman, quite as well as a man. I think the villain from Tomb Raider 2 is an excellent example of how Dr. Poison could be repackaged as a made to work as a really great villlian.

See following scene as example:

What do you think? Agree?

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No. Unless the characters gimmick or motivation is specifically gender motivated, then there really isn't a good reason why a female character should return as a male one, there are already too few female villains worth taking seriously. And as for the TR clip... well there's nothing there that a female version couldn't do.

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#3  Edited By jphulk26

@outside_85 said:

No. Unless the characters gimmick or motivation is specifically gender motivated, then there really isn't a good reason why a female character should return as a male one, there are already too few female villains worth taking seriously. And as for the TR clip... well there's nothing there that a female version couldn't do.

1. Dr. Poison was male in the first place and was changed into a female in one of the most bizzare storylines ever. :) 2. While not gender specific, I think someone like Dr. Posion fits more into the violence of Mans World type villains that wonder woman has, and I just think re-packaging Dr.Poison as a military scientist and foremost expert on biological and chemical weapons, whose gone rogue and also dabbles in the occult, just fits a male antagonist more. (This is also a very contemporary gimmick, which can have vastly different interpretations, from cult leader all the way to mad scientist, and also no other major dc villain has a poison gimmick)

2. This isn´t a feminist issue, I am not being sexist or just flippantly suggesting the change.This isn´t me saying WW villains in general don´t work because the y are female or that there shouldn´t be more female villains in the DC. This is two entirely seperate points I´m making. In fact I would never change Venessa Cale, Alkyone or Cheetah male. But those villains gimmicks specifically suit women. On the other hand Genocide does not need to be a female, she doesn´t act like a female, she´s not feminine, it doesn´t enhance the character in any sense and effectively Genocide for instance was just female for the sake of being a female Doomsday. However as a concept Genocide wasn´t bad. But she should have been a cybernetic system with no specific gender.

With Dr. Poison, the same thing applies. There is nothing intrisically feminine about anything the character does or says and I believe she is just female because WW female and so WW should have female villains. That is the whole thinking behind it. It´s worth saving female characters if they are good and work as females, but if they are practically male characters anyway with more defining qualities of a male, then you are not in anyway aiding some feminist cause by keeping them the way they are.

Really really think about Dr. poison as a character and also WW mythos and to me it´s clear that given the story, Dr. Poison could easily be male and it wouldn´t take anything away from the character, however it would enhance the character a great deal. Then once established, I think that whole gender issue thing with the character could come up where in other stories they could change the character back to a female or even mess around with him being a transgender villain. How´s that for being progressive? ;)

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@jphulk26:

Dr. Poison was always a woman, she just hid it under her clothes. Secondly, none of what you followed that up with has 'male only' written on it, it's just what it's normally been.

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No. Unless the characters gimmick or motivation is specifically gender motivated, then there really isn't a good reason why a female character should return as a male one, there are already too few female villains worth taking seriously. And as for the TR clip... well there's nothing there that a female version couldn't do.

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@jphulk26:

Dr. Poison was always a woman, she just hid it under her clothes. Secondly, none of what you followed that up with has 'male only' written on it, it's just what it's normally been.

Name me one defining characteristic of Dr Poison that makes her a more savvy villain because she´s a woman? A good female character should be better because they are a woman? Like Clarice Starling. Wonder Woman. Buffy etc. If they just have male characteristics in a female body it does nothing for developing strong female representation in media. Dr. Poison is a cold, detached, psychopathic scientist who dehumanises his fellow man, seeing him as mere thing or object, a toy for him to experiment on. He has far more in common with a number of male figures like harold shipman, dr. mengla, Shoko Asahara, HH Holmes than any well-known female
psychopath in history. Any case of female medical staff doing harm to patients under their care was almost always the result of them suffering from munchausen syndrome by proxy which is far more emotion based motivation, and all though poison is most frequetly the tool of use for a number of cases of female murderers, again, the profile does not fit a war profiteer, or mad scientist type like Dr. Posion. women who tended to be poisoners almost always murdered members of their close circle and family, husbands, children, competing love interests etc

In simple terms what I´m saying to you is Doctor Poison does not fit the profile of a female psychopath in anyway shape or form and therefore resonates less with audiences in her female guise. And where as one could argue this is fiction, so one should just accept that, ww is not in the fortunate position with strong enough rogues to potentially waste one of her best. Changing one of her male villains so they more acurately ape the real life moinsters who have created real nightmarish scenes in the world would be a better use of the Dr. Poison gimmick than keeping her as a woman just to satisfy some stuborn, muddleheaded, doctrinal belief that there isn´t enough female villains, so then all her villains who were once female must remain so... I think that´s a very limiting way of seeing things... I´m not saying that if someone can think of a good way to make the female version work they shouldn´t or that she should even officially be made male, but the above character in the film clip, shows just one very powerful way Dr. poison could work. And it fits in with ww´s gimmick of wanting to champion a more peaceful, harmonious society-

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@jphulk26: but what are you defining as male characteristics. truthfully women exist in every fathomable way(personality, presentation) that its really not hard to imagine any character being a woman and her womanhood not being that relevant to her person or purpose to the story. i just dont see how making her a man is at all helpful or beneficial to her character

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@jphulk26: but what are you defining as male characteristics. truthfully women exist in every fathomable way(personality, presentation) that its really not hard to imagine any character being a woman and her womanhood not being that relevant to her person or purpose to the story. i just dont see how making her a man is at all helpful or beneficial to her character

Because it will represents to readers and general audiences threats that have become news worthy in the real world, making the prospect of the character all the more frightening.

what´s truly scarier a fictional dragon or a fictional serial killer? to me a serial kliller, because it is something real, tangible that we as a culture have turned into a real threat that may really be lurking around the corner, ready to get you. Hell, a serial killer may have even targetted you in the cinema while you´re watching the film. the reality of the threat makes it scarier. It´s the same thing with the type, gender, race etc of a particular type of killer. The more it reflects the nightmares perpetuated in the media, the more scary the villain will be. A Ted Bundy type of killer, like Hannibal Lecter or Patrick Bateman works as males because the media representation of such figure depicts them as white, unsuspecting, middle class males. Making Hannibal Lecter a woman or black would drasticallty deminish the fear we have of the character, as terribly racist as that sounds. But equalluy Annie Wilkes from Misery would have had nowhere near the impact as a man. Dr. poison is one of those type of characters for me.

In the fantastical world of ww it would be good for her to face threats that are more realistic, so that she can take down creatures who have become the stuff of real-world nightmares. Now I don´t want to continue being so mysterious and abstract, but in my opinion Dr. Poison should be a mx between dr. mengla and Shoko Asahara and honestly there have been no women to date that have committed such atrocities. There are criminal behaviors that are gender specific to men, where you will be hard pressed to find an example of a female who would do such despicable things. especially acting alone. The mad scientists, doctors, cult leaders who have brainwashed followers and tested biological weapons and chemical on innocent women,children and other victims have to date always been men. within the context of a wonder woman story (ie her facing the violence of mans world) this particular gruesome form of crime against humanity is all the more poigniant if done by a man. That is not to say women can´t do this, it´s not impossible, but the natural qualities or predicates of character that are there with the profile of such evil people are almost ubiquitously limited to male personality types. women can be extremely violent in distinct, and similar ways to men, this just doesn´t happen to be one of those ways. Hence the way Dr. Poison acts is already like a man...

One of my favorite Dr. Poison scenes. But truth be told, it is very ulikely a woman would ever act like this -http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/226577.html

And please don´t give me that feminist women can act anyway they want business, because we are biologically programmed to behave differently, making certian behaviors more likely of one gender than the other. This is not me being sexist.

By the way I´ve also said numerous times I think if there is a writer who can do it justice, bringing the cross dressing aspect back to the character could be kind of fun as well.

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@jphulk26 said:
@willienotwilliam said:

@jphulk26: but what are you defining as male characteristics. truthfully women exist in every fathomable way(personality, presentation) that its really not hard to imagine any character being a woman and her womanhood not being that relevant to her person or purpose to the story. i just dont see how making her a man is at all helpful or beneficial to her character

Because it will represents to readers and general audiences threats that have become news worthy in the real world, making the prospect of the character all the more frightening.

what´s truly scarier a fictional dragon or a fictional serial killer? to me a serial kliller, because it is something real, tangible that we as a culture have turned into a real threat that may really be lurking around the corner, ready to get you. Hell, a serial killer may have even targetted you in the cinema while you´re watching the film. the reality of the threat makes it scarier. It´s the same thing with the type, gender, race etc of a particular type of killer. The more it reflects the nightmares perpetuated in the media, the more scary the villain will be. A Ted Bundy type of killer, like Hannibal Lecter or Patrick Bateman works as males because the media representation of such figure depicts them as white, unsuspecting, middle class males. Making Hannibal Lecter a woman or black would drasticallty deminish the fear we have of the character, as terribly racist as that sounds. But equalluy Annie Wilkes from Misery would have had nowhere near the impact as a man. Dr. poison is one of those type of characters for me.

In the fantastical world of ww it would be good for her to face threats that are more realistic, so that she can take down creatures who have become the stuff of real-world nightmares. Now I don´t want to continue being so mysterious and abstract, but in my opinion Dr. Poison should be a mx between dr. mengla and

Shoko Asahara and honestly there have been no women to date that have committed such atrocities. There are criminal behaviors that are gender specific to men, where you will be hard pressed to find an example of a female who would do such despicable things. especially acting alone. The mad scientists, doctors, cult leaders who have brainwashed followers and tested biological weapons and chemical on innocent women,children and other victims have to date always been men. within the context of a wonder woman story (ie her facing the violence of mans world) this particular gruesome form of crime against humanity is all the more poigniant if done by a man. That is not to say women can´t do this, it´s not impossible, but the natural qualities or predicates of character that are there with the profile of such evil people are almost ubiquitously limited to male personality types. women can be extremely violent in distinct, and similar ways to men, this just doesn´t happen to be one of those ways. Hence the way Dr. Poison acts is already like a man...

One of my favorite Dr. Poison scenes. But truth be told, it is very ulikely a woman would ever act like this -http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/226577.html

And please don´t give me that feminist women can act anyway they want business, because we are biologically programmed to behave differently, making certian behaviors more likely of one gender than the other. This is not me being sexist.

By the way I´ve also said numerous times I think if there is a writer who can do it justice, bringing the cross dressing aspect back to the character could be kind of fun as well.

on a macro level men are definitely more likely to be any number of more violent offenders but on a micro level a woman is certainly able to do any of those things

also not to mention the fact that many groups of women are seen as innocent to the point that they actually are capable of getting off crimes or not being suspected in the first place so its also possible to have a gender critique without making villains all men

also no we aren't biologically program to act or think any particular way. we are socialized to act and think in certain ways based on certain biological realitiesr

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@jphulk26 said:
@willienotwilliam said:

@jphulk26: but what are you defining as male characteristics. truthfully women exist in every fathomable way(personality, presentation) that its really not hard to imagine any character being a woman and her womanhood not being that relevant to her person or purpose to the story. i just dont see how making her a man is at all helpful or beneficial to her character

Because it will represents to readers and general audiences threats that have become news worthy in the real world, making the prospect of the character all the more frightening.

what´s truly scarier a fictional dragon or a fictional serial killer? to me a serial kliller, because it is something real, tangible that we as a culture have turned into a real threat that may really be lurking around the corner, ready to get you. Hell, a serial killer may have even targetted you in the cinema while you´re watching the film. the reality of the threat makes it scarier. It´s the same thing with the type, gender, race etc of a particular type of killer. The more it reflects the nightmares perpetuated in the media, the more scary the villain will be. A Ted Bundy type of killer, like Hannibal Lecter or Patrick Bateman works as males because the media representation of such figure depicts them as white, unsuspecting, middle class males. Making Hannibal Lecter a woman or black would drasticallty deminish the fear we have of the character, as terribly racist as that sounds. But equalluy Annie Wilkes from Misery would have had nowhere near the impact as a man. Dr. poison is one of those type of characters for me.

In the fantastical world of ww it would be good for her to face threats that are more realistic, so that she can take down creatures who have become the stuff of real-world nightmares. Now I don´t want to continue being so mysterious and abstract, but in my opinion Dr. Poison should be a mx between dr. mengla and

Shoko Asahara and honestly there have been no women to date that have committed such atrocities. There are criminal behaviors that are gender specific to men, where you will be hard pressed to find an example of a female who would do such despicable things. especially acting alone. The mad scientists, doctors, cult leaders who have brainwashed followers and tested biological weapons and chemical on innocent women,children and other victims have to date always been men. within the context of a wonder woman story (ie her facing the violence of mans world) this particular gruesome form of crime against humanity is all the more poigniant if done by a man. That is not to say women can´t do this, it´s not impossible, but the natural qualities or predicates of character that are there with the profile of such evil people are almost ubiquitously limited to male personality types. women can be extremely violent in distinct, and similar ways to men, this just doesn´t happen to be one of those ways. Hence the way Dr. Poison acts is already like a man...

One of my favorite Dr. Poison scenes. But truth be told, it is very ulikely a woman would ever act like this -http://asylums.insanejournal.com/scans_daily/226577.html

And please don´t give me that feminist women can act anyway they want business, because we are biologically programmed to behave differently, making certian behaviors more likely of one gender than the other. This is not me being sexist.

By the way I´ve also said numerous times I think if there is a writer who can do it justice, bringing the cross dressing aspect back to the character could be kind of fun as well.

on a macro level men are definitely more likely to be any number of more violent offenders but on a micro level a woman is certainly able to do any of those things

also not to mention the fact that many groups of women are seen as innocent to the point that they actually are capable of getting off crimes or not being suspected in the first place so its also possible to have a gender critique without making villains all men

also no we aren't biologically program to act or think any particular way. we are socialized to act and think in certain ways based on certain biological realitiesr

To be honest, okay. Maybe I´m not explaining myself clearlñy enough, because if I was you couldn´t possibly reply to what I´m saying with this answer. women and men are both incredibly violent, in overlapping ways and in other ways different. The fact it is possible for a woman to be hannibal lecter, does not take away from the fact the character of Hannibal Lecter is more successful as a man, because the character plays on the expectation of real life monsters. dr. poison being a female violates the expectation and therefore makes for a weaker character. ww has plenty of female villains. Out of them there are only literally 2 I would change the genders of. Genocide (niether male of female), and Dr. Poison. that´s it. But I would also caution in future that it is just as sexist and thoughtless to think ww a woman so she has to have mainly female villains. Alot of whom don´t work for precisely the reasons I´ve mentioned. It does her way more harm than good. She should be able to fight just as many men as females. Just like Batmans gallery is nicely mixed. Poison Ivy being the perfect example of a female poison based character that works.

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@jphulk26: Name one thing about Dr. Poison that would be improved by turning her into a man.

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@jphulk26: im still not catching it because you aren't pinpointing any particular qualities that make dr poison better as a male or even more believable because its definitely possible for her to be creepy and violent and be a woman. and im not sure why its sexist to think that ww should have mainly female villains. also, batman does not have a nice mix he has a vast majority of male villains and his most prominent female villains are stereotypes and usually uninteresting

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@jphulk26: Name one thing about Dr. Poison that would be improved by turning her into a man.

Are you for real? Retort, name me one thing about Hannibal Lecter that is improved by him being a male character? Answer: EVERYTHING

Same with Clarice Starling. What is improved by her being female. EVERYTHING.

But since you´ve asked the question I will refer once again to the impact of the character on a subconsious level, due to the fact that Dr. Poison as a fictional character could reflect many real world psychopaths that have seeped into the pours of our culture as some the most feared and diabolicle evils of the modern age. SUCH AS DR MENGLA. But a few…

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More can be played up about the violence of mans world, if the character is a man, making another source of conflict between WW and him. If he was a character selling biological weapons to rogue regimes, supplying them with deadly toxins, or if he was a doctor who tests and experiments new biological strands on innocent victims, once again, just like Ares who represents what wonder woman fights against i.e. war. Dr. Poison would represent the excesses of cruelty of modern warfare in Mans World, which again gives her something tangible to oppose.

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@jphulk26: Name ONE thing that makes Dr. Poison better if she was a he.

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#15  Edited By jphulk26

@outside_85 said:

@jphulk26: Name ONE thing that makes Dr. Poison better if she was a he.

I did. Because it would make HIM/HER reflect more real world scientists who have done similar things. In turn making Dr. Poison more relevent as a character to the modern world.

I´m not sure what you are asking, if you don´t tell me how my answer is not satisfactory to you. I can concede that I may be mistaken, but you are not giving me any kind of rebuttle that tells me where you disagree with my analysis.

As stated before, for all the reasons above Dr. Poison would become far more marketable and relatable as a man, because in general women do not have the tendencies to commit the kind of atrocities we´ve seen Dr. Poison commit. There is not one notable historical case of A "Doctor Of Death" being a woman and therefore, Dr. Poison seems more unrealistic as a woman, when in general the trend in comics is to make the worlds superheroes inhabit more grounded reality.- Making Dr. Poison into a Dr. Mengla type figure would rectify that.

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@jphulk26 said:

I did. Because it would make HIM/HER reflect more real world scientists who have done similar things. In turn making Dr. Poison more relevent as a character to the modern world.

I´m not sure what you are asking, if you don´t tell me how my answer is not satisfactory to you. I can concede that I may be mistaken, but you are not giving me any kind of rebuttle that tells me where you disagree with my analysis.

As stated before, for all the reasons above Dr. Poison would become far more marketable and relatable as a man, because in general women do not have the tendencies to commit the kind of atrocities we´ve seen Dr. Poison commit. There is not one notable historical case of A "Doctor Of Death" being a woman and therefore, Dr. Poison seems more unrealistic as a woman, when in general the trend in comics is to make the worlds superheroes inhabit more grounded reality.- Making Dr. Poison into a Dr. Mengla type figure would rectify that.

So just because in the real world all the really cruel and menacing doctors have all be male, then Dr. Poison should be as well? Instead of say let her pose as a male because sexism would have made it far too difficult for her to be taken seriously at whatever organization that wanted recruit a obvious sadist? Aside that, do you really think cruelty, sadism and apathy towards other humans is a male-only trait?

I am disagreeing with your analysis because it's founded in the real world, where women were not able to become doctors for most of the title's existence as an education.

There is nothing to stop Dr. Poison from being a female Dr. Mengele, here's a few examples:

  • Irma Grese: SS guard at both Auschwitz, Ravensbrük concentration camps and warden at Bergen-Belsen. Executed at Nürnberg for crimes against humanity; which included the torture of the inmates under her supervision.
  • Myra Hindley: British serial killer, preferred children
  • Elizabeth Bathory: The countess that supposedly bathed in the blood of 600 girls to keep herself youthful.
  • Ilse Koch: Another Nazi, married to the commander of the Buchenwald and Majdanek concentration camps, reported to keep the tattoos of the prisoners.

Also, we are dealing with fiction here, so there is litterally nothing stopping DC from keeping Dr. Poison as a woman as sadistic as the worst 'doctors' of the real world.

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@jphulk26 said:

I did. Because it would make HIM/HER reflect more real world scientists who have done similar things. In turn making Dr. Poison more relevent as a character to the modern world.

I´m not sure what you are asking, if you don´t tell me how my answer is not satisfactory to you. I can concede that I may be mistaken, but you are not giving me any kind of rebuttle that tells me where you disagree with my analysis.

As stated before, for all the reasons above Dr. Poison would become far more marketable and relatable as a man, because in general women do not have the tendencies to commit the kind of atrocities we´ve seen Dr. Poison commit. There is not one notable historical case of A "Doctor Of Death" being a woman and therefore, Dr. Poison seems more unrealistic as a woman, when in general the trend in comics is to make the worlds superheroes inhabit more grounded reality.- Making Dr. Poison into a Dr. Mengla type figure would rectify that.

So just because in the real world all the really cruel and menacing doctors have all be male, then Dr. Poison should be as well? Instead of say let her pose as a male because sexism would have made it far too difficult for her to be taken seriously at whatever organization that wanted recruit a obvious sadist? Aside that, do you really think cruelty, sadism and apathy towards other humans is a male-only trait?

1. No clearly I don´t think sadism is a male-only quality hence me saying "Any case of female medical staff doing harm to patients under their care was almost always the result of them suffering from munchausen syndrome by proxy which is far more emotion based motivation, and all though poison is most frequetly the tool of use for a number of cases of female murderers, again, the profile does not fit a war profiteer, or mad scientist type like Dr. Posion. women who tended to be poisoners almost always murdered members of their close circle and family, husbands, children, competing love interests etc" Women can be just as evil as men, but usually in a different way. "

I am disagreeing with your analysis because it's founded in the real world, where women were not able to become doctors for most of the title's existence as an education.

2. A very fair point and it this is true, but nonetheless whether there are cultural, political, economic or other factors contributing to the fact women don´t tend to commit this specific type of crime, that does not take away from the fact that the scariest villains in film, comic and TV mediums have always been the most psychologically consistent with the real world.

There is nothing to stop Dr. Poison from being a female Dr. Mengele, here's a few examples:

  • Irma Grese: SS guard at both Auschwitz, Ravensbrük concentration camps and warden at Bergen-Belsen. Executed at Nürnberg for crimes against humanity; which included the torture of the inmates under her supervision.

As you´ve mentioned bergson belson was a prison guard and the motivation of her crimes are not in not in anyway connected to the spurious justification these so-called doctors of death often use, which is either for military and nationalistic purposes, eugenics and the advancement of science etc. These were crimes commited out of an abuse of power and that´s all.

  • Myra Hindley: British serial killer, preferred children

    committed the moors murders in conjunction with her psychopathic boyfriend with Ian Brady, and it is largely coonsidered by forensic psychologists that she would never have committed these murders if she had never met him.

  • Elizabeth Bathory: The countess that supposedly bathed in the blood of 600 girls to keep herself youthful.
  • Began her crimes after she thought she had been jilted by a younger lover. Her motive was that he might love her again if she was more youthful, and the superstition was that by bathing in the blood of young virgins she could replenish her beauty. Again the psychological profile is nowhere near what Dr. Poison has been depicted as. Also, just to demonstrate my point, the crimes of Bathorny could only have been committed by a woman and it would be nonsensical to portray a man as commiting these crimes in fiction, because the motives are distinctly feminine, albeit a severly warped and twisted version of the female sex-drive.
  • Ilse Koch: Another Nazi, married to the commander of the Buchenwald and Majdanek concentration camps, reported to keep the tattoos of the prisoners.
  • Agains she did this conjunction with her husband and it is doubtful the excesses of cruelty carried out by her would have got anywhere near the degree it did without the conditions of the concentration camp and her husbands involvement.

Also, we are dealing with fiction here, so there is litterally nothing stopping DC from keeping Dr. Poison as a woman as sadistic as the worst 'doctors' of the real world. "

To end, you´re last statement holds some validity, but I want to see them really try and make the character work as either a female or man, but I do thing for all the reasons stated earlier Dr. Poisons reception will be more easily digested if he were male.-

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@jphulk26:

  1. I am going to leap on the word you used: 'usually'. It might all be true what you wrote, but lets remember that superherocomics are always dealing with the exceptional and unique. Only one Superman, only one Joker, only one Scarecrow and so on.
  2. Which is now the world of 2015, where women have mostly been equalized when it comes to education, thus they are able to tread the same kind of routes males have already tread on, even the very bad ones.
  3. My point with these real life examples was that the level of cruelty found in the likes of Megele were not exclusive to his gender.
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#19  Edited By dshipp17

@jphulk26 said:

I´ve argued on the message board that sometimes the reason WW´s classical villains don´t work as well as they should is because some of their gimmicks would best suit men. I believe the best example of this has to be Dr. poison who was actually originally a man, but turned out to be a woman in the end. Anyway I think Dr. poison would work so much better as a man, and she does have a great gimmick, but somehow I feel it doesn´t fit a woman, quite as well as a man. I think the villain from Tomb Raider 2 is an excellent example of how Dr. Poison could be repackaged as a made to work as a really great villlian.

See following scene as example:

Loading Video...

What do you think? Agree?

I didn't notice anything; who in that clip was suppose to represent Dr. Poison? Dr. Poison operated with toxins, but, that clip looked to me to only show a bunch of corporate suits engaged in some type of plot to take over a town, city, or region somewhere. And, they were just going to waste Lara with a gunshot to the head. I didn't see any type of connection to Dr. Poison. But, I do agree that Dr. Poison works better as a male.

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No. Unless the characters gimmick or motivation is specifically gender motivated, then there really isn't a good reason why a female character should return as a male one, there are already too few female villains worth taking seriously. And as for the TR clip... well there's nothing there that a female version couldn't do.

I think this is clear to most people, but, it's not a matter that there are too few good female villains in DC, as a whole, it's a matter of there being too many female villains concentrated in the Wonder Woman rogues gallery; wouldn't it have been better to make one or more of Wonder Woman's female villains a Superboy villain rather that pairing Dr. Psycho over to Superboy for some unknown, bizarre reason? Perhaps, Circe or Silver Swan over to Superboy?

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@dshipp17 said:
@jphulk26 said:

I´ve argued on the message board that sometimes the reason WW´s classical villains don´t work as well as they should is because some of their gimmicks would best suit men. I believe the best example of this has to be Dr. poison who was actually originally a man, but turned out to be a woman in the end. Anyway I think Dr. poison would work so much better as a man, and she does have a great gimmick, but somehow I feel it doesn´t fit a woman, quite as well as a man. I think the villain from Tomb Raider 2 is an excellent example of how Dr. Poison could be repackaged as a made to work as a really great villlian.

See following scene as example:

Loading Video...

What do you think? Agree?

I didn't notice anything; who in that clip was suppose to represent Dr. Poison? Dr. Poison operated with toxins, but, that clip looked to me to only show a bunch of corporate suits engaged in some type of plot to take over a town, city, or region somewhere. And, they were just going to waste Lara with a gunshot to the head. I didn't see any type of connection to Dr. Poison. But, I do agree that Dr. Poison works better as a male.

Yeah I see what you mean. If you watch the film you mayb get what I am talking about more. The main villain is actually the foremost expert on biological and chemical weapons who actually dabbles in occult magic to develop the a biological weapon, which he plans to unleash on the world, only giving the antidote to those he deems to be the best and the brightest of humanity. He´s not the best villain and this is not the best film, but I think the general tone of the character would work really well for Dr. Poison. You hear his plan from 37 second mark to 1.27.

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@dshipp17 said:

I think this is clear to most people, but, it's not a matter that there are too few good female villains in DC, as a whole, it's a matter of there being too many female villains concentrated in the Wonder Woman rogues gallery; wouldn't it have been better to make one or more of Wonder Woman's female villains a Superboy villain rather that pairing Dr. Psycho over to Superboy for some unknown, bizarre reason? Perhaps, Circe or Silver Swan over to Superboy?

While I do agree that there is a little too many female villains in Diana's gallery, I don't think gender swapping any of them is a good idea either. Moving some of them out to make room for new, however, is a fine idea imo.

  • Dr. Psycho, I'll be honest, this made sense to me, because at base Psycho is a horrible stereotype of an embittered midget motivated purely by misogyny. So taking him out of Wonder Woman's world, where he was largely ineffective because she was the only one he couldn't touch, and move him into the psionically powered Superboy's area, made sense to me. As would it moving him into the area of the Martian Manhunter along with Hector Hammond.
  • Giganta moving somewhere else, like she did in Pandora or w/e, would also be a good idea, because her powers were never great enough to actually contend with Diana, who often turned out to be a wasp with the punch of an elephant. And she was never depicted as intelligent enough to counter the lack of power.
  • Cheetah, as much as people like her and see her as Diana's nemesis, I really wouldn't mind seeing her move over to the Flash books and replace the excess amount of Reverse Flash's and Zooms he's dealing with. Make her as fast as him, and with claws, and she's already a threat to be reckoned with, unlike with Diana who can often put her down with one blow to the head.
  • The Mask, last we saw her, she was branded a domestic terrorist, if they ever launch an ARGUS book, she could easily be the sort of foe they'd have to deal with. Heck, she could be in a network with a bunch of the other 'only human' adversaries Diana has collected over the years but don't appear to be using.
  • Dr. Cyber, if DC wont make her into a female Brainiac-type that can contend with Diana with technology, maybe it would be better to move her over to Cyborg or Steel; where she can take the machine-superiority approach to them.
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#23  Edited By jphulk26

@dshipp17 said:

I think this is clear to most people, but, it's not a matter that there are too few good female villains in DC, as a whole, it's a matter of there being too many female villains concentrated in the Wonder Woman rogues gallery; wouldn't it have been better to make one or more of Wonder Woman's female villains a Superboy villain rather that pairing Dr. Psycho over to Superboy for some unknown, bizarre reason? Perhaps, Circe or Silver Swan over to Superboy?

While I do agree that there is a little too many female villains in Diana's gallery, I don't think gender swapping any of them is a good idea either. Moving some of them out to make room for new, however, is a fine idea imo.

So your answer is add more crap rogues to her gallery rather than try something that might work? Because god forbid we try and gender swap a villain, that was formerly a woman, I mean it´s not like that´s never been done by DC before.Lets just throw out all her rogues who are perfectly fine with a little tweeking and add bunch of stupid villains like Apollo, Stryfe and First Born who will never catch on with a general audience? Man, I had a lot of respect for where you were coming from before, but I have to say you just lost a lot of it with this statement.

  • Dr. Psycho, I'll be honest, this made sense to me, because at base Psycho is a horrible stereotype of an embittered midget motivated purely by misogyny. So taking him out of Wonder Woman's world, where he was largely ineffective because she was the only one he couldn't touch, and move him into the psionically powered Superboy's area, made sense to me. As would it moving him into the area of the Martian Manhunter along with Hector Hammond.
  • BULL CRAP. HOW IS HE INEFFECTIVE?DR: PSYCHO needs a power upgrade and he could be a great and iconic villain for WW. an animated series would have helped establish him as well. DC screwed up, not the character. If they can figure out how to make a clown dangerous to Batman or a mere mortal in Lex Luthor dangerous to Superman, then why is it so hard to make a ultra powerful telepath dangerous to wonder woman.? Answer, because they don´t care. Hence adding new rogues is not going to help wonder woman. it´s going to make her situation worse.
  • Giganta moving somewhere else, like she did in Pandora or w/e, would also be a good idea, because her powers were never great enough to actually contend with Diana, who often turned out to be a wasp with the punch of an elephant. And she was never depicted as intelligent enough to counter the lack of power.
  • Giganta to me sucks and I´ve never got peoples fascination with her. She´s like a throwback silverage villain, that is worth revisiting perhaps in issues when Wondy goes back in time or something, but her as a main villain is ridiculous.
  • Cheetah, as much as people like her and see her as Diana's nemesis, I really wouldn't mind seeing her move over to the Flash books and replace the excess amount of Reverse Flash's and Zooms he's dealing with. Make her as fast as him, and with claws, and she's already a threat to be reckoned with, unlike with Diana who can often put her down with one blow to the head.
  • Why? What is this. Lets steel all wonder woman villains day. what the hell?
  • The Mask, last we saw her, she was branded a domestic terrorist, if they ever launch an ARGUS book, she could easily be the sort of foe they'd have to deal with. Heck, she could be in a network with a bunch of the other 'only human' adversaries Diana has collected over the years but don't appear to be using.
  • Dr. Cyber, if DC wont make her into a female Brainiac-type that can contend with Diana with technology, maybe it would be better to move her over to Cyborg or Steel; where she can take the machine-superiority approach to them.
  • Again I don´t care about the last two, but no. Maybe dr. cyber can be a cameo.

List of female ww villains ranked in my opinion and look how many females

VillainFirst appearanceDescription
Earl of Greedcompletely uselesscompletely useless m
Lord Conquestcompletely uselesscompletely useless m
Blakfucompletely uselesscompletely useless f
MavisWonder Woman #4 (April–May 1943)completely useless f
ZaraMaybe Leader of the Cult of the Crimson Flame, Zara is a skilled pyrotechnics expert which she uses in her hatred for mankind. Zara was sold into slavery as a child and was witness to many horrors in her lifetime. After her cult was defeated by Wonder Woman she joined Villainy Inc. and sought revenge. f
Evilesscompletely uselesscompletely useless f
Hypnotacompletely uselesscompletely useless f
Draska NishkimaybeCrafty spy-for-hire and extortionist who also attempted to escape trial by binding Wonder Woman in her own magic lasso. Appeared in both Golden and Silver Age. f
Blue Snowmancompletely uselesscompletely useless, funny they brought her back for New 52. Another female- f
Gundra the Valkyriecompletely uselesscompletely useless f
Queen Atomiamaybeyet another female f
The Maskcompletely uselesscompletely useless f
Minister BlizzardWonder Woman #29 (March 1948)completely useless f
InventaWonder Woman #33 (January 1949)completely useless f
NuclearWonder Woman #43 (September/October 1950)completely useless m

Silver Age

VillainFirst appearanceDescription
Professor MenaceWonder Woman #111 (January 1960)completely useless m
Mouse ManWonder Woman #141 (October 1963)completely useless m
Egg FuWonder Woman #157 (October 1965)maybe m
DeimosWonder Woman vol. 1, #183 (August 1969)completely useless m
PhobosWonder Woman vol. 1, #183 (August 1969)completely useless m
MorganaWonder Woman #186 (February 1970)completely useless f
Lu ShanWonder Woman #187 (April 1970)completely useless f

Bronze Age

VillainFirst appearanceDescription
Red PanzerWonder Woman #228 (February 1977)completely useless m
Osiramaybe fAn alien, Osira crash landed in ancient Egypt centuries ago and attempted to bring peace to the planet, using her vast telepathic powers to dominate mankind. After a time, some of the locals succeeded in trapping her in a pyramid in Egypt for many centuries but she was accidentally freed in modern times. She attempted to reestablish her control over the world but was stopped by Wonder Woman.
ArmageddonWonder Woman #234 (August 1977)completely useless m
Baron BlitzkriegWorld's Finest #246 (August/September 1977)completely useless f
KungWonder Woman #237 (November 1977)completely useless f
SumoAll-New Collectors Edition: Superman v. Wonder Woman (1978)completely useless f
Astarte, Empress of the Silver SnakeWonder Woman #252 (February 1979)completely useless f
Wonder Woman (vol. 3) #42 (May 2010)completely useless f
Captain WonderWonder Woman #289 (March 1982)maybe m
HecateSuperman Family #218 (May 1982)completely useless f
AegeusmaybeLeader of a cell of Greek terrorists, Nikos Aegeus was granted enhanced strength, mystical lightning that can destroy or teleport, and winged steed Pegasus by Bellerophon in order to destroy the Amazons. He later picked up the daggers of Vulcan, which could slice through even Wonder Woman's bracelets. In the New 52 universe, Aegeus is a young man attempting to steal the title of "God of War" from Wonder Woman.
The YtirflirksWonder Woman #311 (January 1984)completely useless f
TezcatlipocaWonder Woman #313 (March 1984)completely useless m

Post-Crisis

VillainFirst appearanceDescription
DecayWonder Woman vol. 2, #3 (April 1987)completely useless f
Maxwell LordusefulAn evil businessman with mind control powers. During the Infinite Crisis, he manipulated Superman to attack Batman and Wonder Woman; she found that the only way to stop him was to kill him and snapped his neck, causing her to become wanted. Recently, during Blackest Night, he came back to life as a zombie, whose only goal is to get revenge on Wonder Woman.
CottusWonder Woman vol. 2, #10 (November 1987)completely useless m
EchidnaWonder Woman vol. 2, #11 (December 1987)completely useless f
MikosWonder Woman vol. 2, #17 (June 1988)maybe
EuryaleWonder Woman vol. 2, #23 (December 1988)useful f
Shim'TarWonder Woman vol. 2, #33 (August 1989) useful f
White MagicianWonder Woman Annual vol. 2, #3 (September 1992)completely useless m
Cassandra "Cassie" ArnoldWonder Woman Annual vol. 2, #3 (September 1992)completely useless f
Moot and GeofWonder Woman vol. 2, #72 (March 1993)completely useless f
Antonio SaziaWonder Woman vol. 2, #73 (April 1993)completely useless f
Dickie LoperWonder Woman vol. 2, #74 (May 1993)

Crack-head who obtained highly advanced gun technology.

lol

completely useless m

WarmasterWonder Woman vol. 2, #77 (August 1993)completely useless m
MayflyWonder Woman vol. 2, #78 (September 1993)completely useless f
Paulie LongoWonder Woman vol. 2, #85 (April 1994)completely useless m
Julianna SaziaWonder Woman #87 (June 1994)completely useless f
Dark AngelWonder Woman vol. 2, #131 (March 1998)completely useless f
DevastationWonder Woman vol. 2, #143 (April 1999)completely useless f
Queen of FablesJLA #47 (November 2000)completely useless f
SthenoWonder Woman vol. 2, #165 (February 2001)useful m
CyborgirlWonder Woman vol. 2, #179 (May 2002)completely useless f
Veronica CaleWonder Woman vol. 2, #196 (November 2003)useful f
Alkyone"The Circle" #14-17 of Wonder Woman vol. 3 (January 2008)very useless f
GenocideWonder Woman vol. 3, #26 (November 2008)useful f
The Crow Children"War Killer" Wonder Woman v3 #37-41 (Vol. 3)useful m
Dark ManWonder Woman #601 (September 2010)completely useless f
CernunnosWonder Woman #604 (December 2010)completely useless f
MinotaurWonder Woman #604 (December 2010)completely useless f
AnannWonder Woman #605 (January 2011)completely useless f
BellonaWonder Woman #605 (January 2011)completely useless f
NemesisWonder Woman #611 (July 2011)completely useless f

The New 52

VillainFirst appearanceDescription
CassandraWonder Woman vol. 4, #14 (January 2013)completely useless f
DerinoeWonder Woman vol. 4, #36 (January 2015)completely useless f
GrailJustice League vol. 2, #40 (June 2015)completely useless f
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#24  Edited By Outside_85
@jphulk26 said:

So your answer is add more crap rogues to her gallery rather than try something that might work? Because god forbid we try and gender swap a villain, that was formerly a woman, I mean it´s not like that´s never been done by DC before.Lets just throw out all her rogues who are perfectly fine with a little tweeking and add bunch of stupid villains like Apollo, Strife and First Born who will never catch on with a general audience? Man, I had a lot of respect for where you were coming from before, but I have to say you just lost a lot of it with this statement.

  • BULL CRAP. HOW IS HE INEFFECTIVE?DR: PSYCHO needs a power upgrade and he could be a great and iconic villain for WW. an animated series would have helped establish him as well. DC screwed up, not the character. If they can figure out how to make a clown dangerous to Batman or a mere mortal in Lex Luthor dangerous to Superman, then why is it so hard to make a ultra powerful telepath dangerous to wonder woman.?
  • Giganta to me sucks and I´ve never got peoples fascination with her. She´s like a throwback silverage villain, that is worth revisiting perhaps in issues when Wondy goes back in time or something, but her as a main villain is ridiculous.
  • Why? What is this. Lets steel all wonder woman villains day. what the hell?
  • Again I don´t care about the last two, but no. Maybe dr. cyber can be a cameo.

No, my answer is to get rid of rogues who sell by date has expired, making room for new opponents that's more in tune with both who Diana is and what her audience wants to see. If you don't like my opinion on this matter, too bad.

  • When was the last time he was actually able to affect Diana?
  • That's how it is with most of them.
  • Try and think outside the box for once. Do you want DC to pander to you personal likes and dislikes only? Or do you want to see these characters be formidable someplace where they might actually work?

A) Your list is copied off wikipedia and just by a quick look I could see a bunch of males on it as well.

B) I assume there is a very good reason why 90% of the entries haven't been seen or heard from in several decades; they suck.

C) Calm down before you post again.

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@jphulk26 said:

So your answer is add more crap rogues to her gallery rather than try something that might work? Because god forbid we try and gender swap a villain, that was formerly a woman, I mean it´s not like that´s never been done by DC before.Lets just throw out all her rogues who are perfectly fine with a little tweeking and add bunch of stupid villains like Apollo, Strife and First Born who will never catch on with a general audience? Man, I had a lot of respect for where you were coming from before, but I have to say you just lost a lot of it with this statement.

  • BULL CRAP. HOW IS HE INEFFECTIVE?DR: PSYCHO needs a power upgrade and he could be a great and iconic villain for WW. an animated series would have helped establish him as well. DC screwed up, not the character. If they can figure out how to make a clown dangerous to Batman or a mere mortal in Lex Luthor dangerous to Superman, then why is it so hard to make a ultra powerful telepath dangerous to wonder woman.?
  • Giganta to me sucks and I´ve never got peoples fascination with her. She´s like a throwback silverage villain, that is worth revisiting perhaps in issues when Wondy goes back in time or something, but her as a main villain is ridiculous.
  • Why? What is this. Lets steel all wonder woman villains day. what the hell?
  • Again I don´t care about the last two, but no. Maybe dr. cyber can be a cameo.

No, my answer is to get rid of rogues who sell by date has expired, making room for new opponents that's more in tune with both who Diana is and what her audience wants to see. If you don't like my opinion on this matter, too bad.

  • When was the last time he was actually able to affect Diana?
  • That's how it is with most of them.
  • Try and think outside the box for once. Do you want DC to pander to you personal likes and dislikes only? Or do you want to see these characters be formidable someplace where they might actually work?

A) Your list is copied off wikipedia and just by a quick look I could see a bunch of males on it as well.

B) I assume there is a very good reason why 90% of the entries haven't been seen or heard from in several decades; they suck.

C) Calm down before you post again.

what made you think i was worked up? lack of effort is what has made ww´s "core" enemies not work. if dr. psychon can work for superboy, how is it he cannot work for ww? Anyway cool. agree to disagree. I´m not getting in this debate.

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@jphulk26 said:

what made you think i was worked up? lack of effort is what has made ww´s "core" enemies not work. if dr. psychon can work for superboy, how is it he cannot work for ww? Anyway cool. agree to disagree. I´m not getting in this debate.

The generally angry tone of your outburst and when you start typing with REALLY LARGE LETTERS?

He can work for Superboy because Superboy is not completely immune to him like Diana is, and unlike Max Lords he apparently wasn't into dominating someone like Superman to take her on. Superboy however is someone Psycho can grapple with and Superboy has the kind of power to grapple back or at least struggle out of said grasp.

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@jphulk26 said:

what made you think i was worked up? lack of effort is what has made ww´s "core" enemies not work. if dr. psychon can work for superboy, how is it he cannot work for ww? Anyway cool. agree to disagree. I´m not getting in this debate.

The generally angry tone of your outburst and when you start typing with REALLY LARGE LETTERS?

He can work for Superboy because Superboy is not completely immune to him like Diana is, and unlike Max Lords he apparently wasn't into dominating someone like Superman to take her on. Superboy however is someone Psycho can grapple with and Superboy has the kind of power to grapple back or at least struggle out of said grasp.

Wasn´t angry. You misinterpreted. I don´t get angry about conversations like this. It´s hardly worth getting angry over.

To your seceond point, what you said makes absolutely no sense. First off, WW doesn´t have to be immune to Psycho´s psychic abilities. They are both fictional characters as you pointed out many times. So a writer can correct this problem by just writing that she isn´t. Or that she´s only immune when carrying the Lasso. Or make him more powerful, with a greater range of mental abilities. If people thought the way you did Superman, Green Lantern or pretty much any superhero with great power would have no villains.

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@jphulk26 said:

Wasn´t angry. You misinterpreted. I don´t get angry about conversations like this. It´s hardly worth getting angry over.

To your seceond point, what you said makes absolutely no sense. First off, WW doesn´t have to be immune to Psycho´s psychic abilities. They are both fictional characters as you pointed out many times. So a writer can correct this problem by just writing that she isn´t. Or that she´s only immune when carrying the Lasso. Or make him more powerful, with a greater range of mental abilities. If people thought the way you did Superman, Green Lantern or pretty much any superhero with great power would have no villains.

Strange, your rant gave every indication of an angry person tapping away at his keyboard.

It's not rocket science:

Psionic powered villain fights psionically powered hero. Same deal when Batman has to fight someone with a martial arts reputation like Deathstroke or Lady Shiva.

And if people thought like you, comics would be back in the 1940 and out of business. Plus what I am saying doesn't appear to translate to you, because Superman even with the extreme limitation of only fighting people in his weightclass would have: Zod, Non, Faora, Brainiac, Darkseid, Kalibak, Mongul, Cyborg Superman, Doomsday, Parasite, Bizarro and so on.

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#29  Edited By jphulk26

@jphulk26 said:

Wasn´t angry. You misinterpreted. I don´t get angry about conversations like this. It´s hardly worth getting angry over.

To your seceond point, what you said makes absolutely no sense. First off, WW doesn´t have to be immune to Psycho´s psychic abilities. They are both fictional characters as you pointed out many times. So a writer can correct this problem by just writing that she isn´t. Or that she´s only immune when carrying the Lasso. Or make him more powerful, with a greater range of mental abilities. If people thought the way you did Superman, Green Lantern or pretty much any superhero with great power would have no villains.

Strange, your rant gave every indication of an angry person tapping away at his keyboard.

It's not rocket science:

Psionic powered villain fights psionically powered hero. Same deal when Batman has to fight someone with a martial arts reputation like Deathstroke or Lady Shiva.

And if people thought like you, comics would be back in the 1940 and out of business. Plus what I am saying doesn't appear to translate to you, because Superman even with the extreme limitation of only fighting people in his weightclass would have: Zod, Non, Faora, Brainiac, Darkseid, Kalibak, Mongul, Cyborg Superman, Doomsday, Parasite, Bizarro and so on.

The comic industry isn´t exactly setting the world on fire at the moment. I also always argue how comics have to engage with modern world around us. Just like in the 1940s it engaged with the conflicts both internal and external within American culture. So I don´t think I´m stuck in the 1940s. Saying that I want WW´s classical villains to be built up and used more, is said for one simple reason. The best comic characters have strong rogues. Those rogues did not start off great most of the time, they were developed over time, and given diverse expressions by different writers. It is all well and good adding new villains to Superman or Batman who already have establshed rogues, but with ww it does a great deal of damage to her legacy and story, because in all honesty ww does not have an established rogues gallery. I was very happy with Simone adding new rogues to WW´s story because she still engaged with her classical villains. She didn´t always knock it out of the park, but I think she was able to establish some great new villains, while making use of her classical cast of rogues as well.

also, heroes don´t always have to face villains who have the same powers as them. I actually find that rather boring. Heroes should have a host opf villains who can threaten them in different ways. WW has physical threats in terms of Cheetah, Ares, Genocide, perhaps Circe, so she also needs psychological threats and Dr. Psycho plays to that perfectly.

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#30  Edited By dshipp17

@outside_85 said:
@dshipp17 said:

I think this is clear to most people, but, it's not a matter that there are too few good female villains in DC, as a whole, it's a matter of there being too many female villains concentrated in the Wonder Woman rogues gallery; wouldn't it have been better to make one or more of Wonder Woman's female villains a Superboy villain rather that pairing Dr. Psycho over to Superboy for some unknown, bizarre reason? Perhaps, Circe or Silver Swan over to Superboy?

While I do agree that there is a little too many female villains in Diana's gallery, I don't think gender swapping any of them is a good idea either. Moving some of them out to make room for new, however, is a fine idea imo.

  • Dr. Psycho, I'll be honest, this made sense to me, because at base Psycho is a horrible stereotype of an embittered midget motivated purely by misogyny. So taking him out of Wonder Woman's world, where he was largely ineffective because she was the only one he couldn't touch, and move him into the psionically powered Superboy's area, made sense to me. As would it moving him into the area of the Martian Manhunter along with Hector Hammond.
  • Giganta moving somewhere else, like she did in Pandora or w/e, would also be a good idea, because her powers were never great enough to actually contend with Diana, who often turned out to be a wasp with the punch of an elephant. And she was never depicted as intelligent enough to counter the lack of power.
  • Cheetah, as much as people like her and see her as Diana's nemesis, I really wouldn't mind seeing her move over to the Flash books and replace the excess amount of Reverse Flash's and Zooms he's dealing with. Make her as fast as him, and with claws, and she's already a threat to be reckoned with, unlike with Diana who can often put her down with one blow to the head.
  • The Mask, last we saw her, she was branded a domestic terrorist, if they ever launch an ARGUS book, she could easily be the sort of foe they'd have to deal with. Heck, she could be in a network with a bunch of the other 'only human' adversaries Diana has collected over the years but don't appear to be using.
  • Dr. Cyber, if DC wont make her into a female Brainiac-type that can contend with Diana with technology, maybe it would be better to move her over to Cyborg or Steel; where she can take the machine-superiority approach to them.

Dr. Psycho wasn't traded to Superboy, he just appeared in a few Superboy issues. As far as I know, Dr. Psycho is still a Wonder Woman villain who has not been allowed to appear in the Wonder Woman comics in these post-Flashpoint days.

There is no reason that Dr. Psycho's psychic powers could not work on Wonder Woman, especially if she were separated from her magic lasso at the time of Dr. Psycho's attack. Dr. Psycho makes no sense as a Superboy villain and he makes a perfect complement for Wonder Woman, partly for some of the reasons that you mention. Wonder Woman needs to be forced to earn those noble attributes such as love and compassion; if she can't show those with Dr. Psycho, than she does not deserve those labels; being forced to earn those labels is what makes Dr. Psycho the perfect villain for Wonder Woman.

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@dshipp17 said:

Dr. Psycho wasn't traded to Superboy, he just appeared in a few Superboy issues. As far as I know, Dr. Psycho is still a Wonder Woman villain who has not been allowed to appear in the Wonder Woman comics in these post-Flashpoint days.

  • There is no reason that Dr. Psycho's psychic powers could not work on Wonder Woman, especially if she were separated from her magic lasso at the time of Dr. Psycho's attack.
  • Dr. Psycho makes no sense as a Superboy villain and he makes a perfect complement for Wonder Woman, partly for some of the reasons that you mention.
  • Wonder Woman needs to be forced to earn those noble attributes such as love and compassion; if she can't show those with Dr. Psycho, than she does not deserve those labels; being forced to earn those labels is what makes Dr. Psycho the perfect villain for Wonder Woman.

Except there (so far) has not been established any kind of connection to Diana or even that Psycho has any particular reason to target her.

  • Except in the New 52, Diana's mental fortitude is derived from her godly/demigodly status and not the lasso. (Her own assumption as to why she wasn't taken over by Brainiac)
  • I don't get it; How does pitting Psycho against Superboy make no sense, while it make sense to pit a psychic against a hero he can't even touch with his power and would get broken in half by hers?
  • She earned those attributes during the course of Azzarello's run with her numerous acts of compassion towards the people she encountered.
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#32  Edited By jphulk26

@outside_85 said:
  • I don't get it; How does pitting Psycho against Superboy make no sense, while it make sense to pit a psychic against a hero he can't even touch with his power and would get broken in half by hers?
  • She earned those attributes during the course of Azzarello's run with her numerous acts of compassion towards the people she encountered.

How is it you seem so intelligent, yet so limited in imagination? Change Dr. Psycho´s powers, so that he can match Diana.

How many times has Braniac´s powers been changed and upgraded to match Superman?

How many times has Metallo had to be upgraded or Parasite to match Superman ever growing power levels?

So why is it so difficult for you to imagine that Dr. Psycho could be given telekensis that gives him a forcefield as well as psychic abilities, which would make him a major match for wonder woman? Or reality distortion? Why is that so difficult?

All the major DC villains have gone through hundreds of iterations, why are WW´s villains so difficult to do that with?

She will never have an established rogues gallery if they continue the path you are asking them to tred, because none of her villains will stick. If Dr. Psycho is so bad why is he being used as a Superboy villain? It drives me insane the way DC think about WW and her mythos. It is so easy, take the the work ethic you use for Batman and Superman and Green Lantern and try that for one or two years with WW and her villains, and see how she does. FOR INSTANCE See how an animated show might elevate Cheetah, Dr. Psycho and Ares in the eyes of younger generations. It´s just pure B.S.

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@jphulk26 said:

How is it you seem so intelligent, yet so limited in imagination? Change Dr. Psycho´s powers, so that he can match Diana.

How many times has Braniac´s powers been changed and upgraded to match Superman?

How many times has Metallo had to be upgraded or Parasite to match Superman ever growing power levels?

So why is it so difficult for you to imagine that Dr. Psycho could be given telekensis that gives him a forcefield as well as psychic abilities, which would make him a major match for wonder woman? Or reality distortion? Why is that so difficult?

All the major DC villains have gone through hundreds of iterations, why are WW´s villains so difficult to do that with?

She will never have an established rogues gallery if they continue the path you are asking them to tred, because none of her villains will stick.

If Dr. Psycho is so bad why is he being used as a Superboy villain? It drives me insane the way DC think about WW and her mythos.

It is so easy, take the the work ethic you use for Batman and Superman and Green Lantern and try that for one or two years with WW and her villains, and see how she does. FOR INSTANCE See how an animated show might elevate Cheetah, Dr. Psycho and Ares in the eyes of younger generations. It´s just pure B.S.

I am not limited, I am simply going about this in another fashion than as a superpower-arms race thats always escalating. As for changing Psycho, that would be fine, but as far as I am concerned; you need to either make him a demigod in his own right or powered by one. Because I am a firm believer in the notion that there is a difference between a mortal and a god, and now Psycho has to contend with one.

Braniac is a machine, him constantly making upgrades to himself is quite natural, same with Parasite. Same is true of Metallo whenever he falls into the hands of someone willing to make the upgrades to his chassis.

It's not difficult, but it is straying outside of his normal fields of power. Like giving Lex Luthor super-strength. Make him smarter, not stronger.

Because for the last 30 years at least, Diana hasn't been merely resilient to the powers of people like Psycho; she's been completely immune. These people couldn't develop powers to overcome this immunity in the first place, and not at all when it was later reinforced by Athena. Not even Fernus had that kind of power.

Her villains don't stick because they have essentially been miscast, move those over to places where they are of more use and then create something that actually works rather than continue to beat the same old dead horse in the hopes it might suddenly come back to life.

Because they are a better match. His powers makes him a challenge to Superboy, but Superboy himself is not a pushover for Psycho either.

So we come full circle and think an animated show will automatically fix everything? It won't unless it's handled properly and the comic writers actually pay it any heed.

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#34  Edited By jphulk26

@outside_85 said:
@jphulk26 said:

How is it you seem so intelligent, yet so limited in imagination? Change Dr. Psycho´s powers, so that he can match Diana.

How many times has Braniac´s powers been changed and upgraded to match Superman?

How many times has Metallo had to be upgraded or Parasite to match Superman ever growing power levels?

So why is it so difficult for you to imagine that Dr. Psycho could be given telekensis that gives him a forcefield as well as psychic abilities, which would make him a major match for wonder woman? Or reality distortion? Why is that so difficult?

All the major DC villains have gone through hundreds of iterations, why are WW´s villains so difficult to do that with?

She will never have an established rogues gallery if they continue the path you are asking them to tred, because none of her villains will stick.

If Dr. Psycho is so bad why is he being used as a Superboy villain? It drives me insane the way DC think about WW and her mythos.

It is so easy, take the the work ethic you use for Batman and Superman and Green Lantern and try that for one or two years with WW and her villains, and see how she does. FOR INSTANCE See how an animated show might elevate Cheetah, Dr. Psycho and Ares in the eyes of younger generations. It´s just pure B.S.

I am not limited, I am simply going about this in another fashion than as a superpower-arms race thats always escalating. As for changing Psycho, that would be fine, but as far as I am concerned; you need to either make him a demigod in his own right or powered by one. Because I am a firm believer in the notion that there is a difference between a mortal and a god, and now Psycho has to contend with one.

I respect what you said there. It´s not all about power, but I was replying to what you have been referring to. You were the one who was bringing up his power level in comparison to WW, which is why I focused on that, but he also needs a story, a modern update that is compelling and will allow him to match the great charisma of WW.

I am not a firm believer there is a difference between mortals and gods. I am a firm believer that a good story is a good story is a good story. Added to that WW pre-52 was not a demi-god. I believe in good heroes vs good villains. Mortals should be able to fight Robots like Terminator, Gods should fight men like Superman and Lex etc. As long as there is a good compelling story behind it, that is all I care about.

Braniac is a machine, him constantly making upgrades to himself is quite natural, same with Parasite. Same is true of Metallo whenever he falls into the hands of someone willing to make the upgrades to his chassis.

My point was that heroes and villains in the DC universe always have upgrades to their powers or alterations to their origin depending on the interpretation of the character the story is going for. Look at Doomsday and his power upgrades, or Gorilla Grodd who now can absorb brainwaves to make himself more intelligent. The Joker has had countless origins and upgrades to his abilities depending on the batman story they are trying to tell. Sometimes he can´t fight at all and needs henchmen, sometimes he is a physical match for Batman. Sometimes he has scientfic knowledge etc etc etc. that is how great villains are made. By now I would have expected to see several different versions of Ares, Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison etc. All with tweeked power sets and origins. That is when writers will get excited about putting their own spin on these charracters.

It's not difficult, but it is straying outside of his normal fields of power. Like giving Lex Luthor super-strength. Make him smarter, not stronger.

Lex Luthor is given a power suit to make up for his weakness against superman. Clearly, if people hadn´t developed Lex, we could easily be talking about him in the same way we´re talking about Dr. Psycho. It makes no sense that a mere mortal can take on a man who bathes in the sun. the reason it works is writers make it so. They figured out ways to make him a challenge. To all intense and purposes Psycho is actually even more powerful than Lex, so what is the problem. He´s called Dr. psycho, not Dr. Telepathy, so why not add more mental based attributes to him, give him a clear reason for havin these powers and why he is hostile to women, all of which would make sense to his gimmick. Is he a pure psychopath? Is he a tragic villain, scarred by his past? is he a villain who percieves himself to be the hero? what?

Because for the last 30 years at least, Diana hasn't been merely resilient to the powers of people like Psycho; she's been completely immune. These people couldn't develop powers to overcome this immunity in the first place, and not at all when it was later reinforced by Athena. Not even Fernus had that kind of power.

My opinion, making WW immune to psychic attacks is OP. I would not write her as that powerful at all. She should only be immune with the Lasso and that´s it. She needs more obstacles as a hero, not less, and I don´t care one bit about cannon. It´s fiction. change it.

Her villains don't stick because they have essentially been miscast, move those over to places where they are of more use and then create something that actually works rather than continue to beat the same old dead horse in the hopes it might suddenly come back to life.

--- Her villains don´t stick, because DC doesn´t use them properly. They fire guys like Rucka who wanted to work with the character and write an Earth One with her years ago. They cancel projects with her like her all-star comic, they don´t make movies of her, they don´t make writers stay consistent with her mythos etc etc etc. Most of Batmans main villains became iconic because of his movies or cartoons. Same with Lex Luthor. It is not some inherent magic quality within the characters.

Because they are a better match. His powers makes him a challenge to Superboy, but Superboy himself is not a pushover for Psycho either.

I have no idea why they are a better match. You haven´t given me one good reason.

So we come full circle and think an animated show will automatically fix everything? It won't unless it's handled properly and the comic writers actually pay it any heed.

I don´t think an animated show is a fix all for everything, however, I think it´s a damn good start. If you put someone like Bruce Timm in cahrge of it, I think he could do a great job. Follow on from the animated film they did and make it in that universe. Writers never want to take the blame. Studios, Publishers. Instead of accepting being at fault they pass the buck to characters who have no agency outside of what is created for them. The fact of the matter is if WW had been more consistent over the years and popular incarnations of her had have been further developed she would be more popular now. The same can be said of if she had a movie and if she had have had animated show. And you know, a movie I can almost understand, because lets face it a wonder woman movie may have really sucked without advances in CGI we have today, but that DC haven´t put out an animated series for their 3rd biggest character is plain assanine.

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I respect what you said there. It´s not all about power, but I was replying to what you have been referring to. You were the one who was bringing up his power level in comparison to WW, which is why I focused on that, but he also needs a story, a modern update that is compelling and will allow him to match the great charisma of WW.

I am not a firm believer there is a difference between mortals and gods. I am a firm believer that a good story is a good story is a good story. Added to that WW pre-52 was not a demi-god. I believe in good heroes vs good villains. Mortals should be able to fight Robots like Terminator, Gods should fight men like Superman and Lex etc. As long as there is a good compelling story behind it, that is all I care about.

The problem is that he is trying to do this in a superhero comic, where fight inevitably breaks out and where he is woefully under-equipped to handle her.

I just have the perception that being a god means something, it's not a something that's easy to become and not easy (if at all possible) to match. Which is why I prefer them to remain either out of, or remain as indirect influences, when non-deities wander into their business. Which is why I think stuff like the current Deathstroke story is an abominable pile crap logic employed purely to over-inflate someone who normally swings leagues out of his own ball-park. Deathstroke is an excellent Batman adversary, thats where he should be at, but taking on a god? Just no.

My point was that heroes and villains in the DC universe always have upgrades to their powers or alterations to their origin depending on the interpretation of the character the story is going for. Look at Doomsday and his power upgrades, or Gorilla Grodd who now can absorb brainwaves to make himself more intelligent. The Joker has had countless origins and upgrades to his abilities depending on the batman story they are trying to tell. Sometimes he can´t fight at all and needs henchmen, sometimes he is a physical match for Batman. Sometimes he has scientfic knowledge etc etc etc. that is how great villains are made. By now I would have expected to see several different versions of Ares, Dr. Psycho, Dr. Poison etc. All with tweeked power sets and origins. That is when writers will get excited about putting their own spin on these charracters.

You are oddly enough picking characters widely known for the malleability of their powers and skills. In the case of Doomsday, it actually happens to be his power; die, adapt and overcome. The Joker is such a great tool for writers because of the now established kaleidoscope-personality he has and that no one knows who he is or what his actual origins is.

The problem with Diana's foes is that the fewest of them have that in-built malleability, like say Doomsday, it's one guy or gal with a specific powerset thats rarely if ever shown to have been improved on. The one exception I can remember from the last 30 years is Rucka's Silver Swan, which was cyborg. If it just happens to the others, we are wondering why they are so inconsistent, which is what's happening to Cheetah when she can take on the League in one issue and fall over to Green Arrow the next.

Lex Luthor is given a power suit to make up for his weakness against superman. Clearly, if people hadn´t developed Lex, we could easily be talking about him in the same way we´re talking about Dr. Psycho. It makes no sense that a mere mortal can take on a man who bathes in the sun. the reason it works is writers make it so. They figured out ways to make him a challenge.

To all intense and purposes Psycho is actually even more powerful than Lex, so what is the problem. He´s called Dr. psycho, not Dr. Telepathy, so why not add more mental based attributes to him, give him a clear reason for havin these powers and why he is hostile to women, all of which would make sense to his gimmick. Is he a pure psychopath? Is he a tragic villain, scarred by his past? is he a villain who percieves himself to be the hero? what?

Thing is that Lex's suits never work because he can't even beat Superboy while wearing one, and normally he only don's it as a kind of last resort. At all other times he acts through straw-men and with his otherwise formidable brilliance.

The only field Psycho is more powerful than Lex is in the telepathy department. He doesn't have Lex's wealth or network and he doesn't have the kind of mind Lex used to get the two first option. And lets not forget that the reason Lex is so formiddable now, is because some bright spark once decided to do away with the original 'mad scientist' Lex Luthor and remake him as a business tycoon. If you are fine with nearly a complete recreation of Psycho to achieve this, thats fine, but does border on the question of why bothering with remodelling when you could just have made a new character instead. Like the best version of Psycho I've ever seen was the one from Odyssey, where his reason for going after Diana is simply so he can be close to her...kinda like Gollum-Ring love/hate relationship.

My opinion, making WW immune to psychic attacks is OP. I would not write her as that powerful at all. She should only be immune with the Lasso and that´s it. She needs more obstacles as a hero, not less, and I don´t care one bit about cannon. It´s fiction. change it.

If you don't care about canon, you really have no reason to be reading the main books published by DC or Marvel, because thats their unique quality over stuff like manga; it's all a big coherent story, what happens in the stories matter and will continue to do so until someone actively changes it.

--- Her villains don´t stick, because DC doesn´t use them properly. They fire guys like Rucka who wanted to work with the character and write an Earth One with her years ago. They cancel projects with her like her all-star comic, they don´t make movies of her, they don´t make writers stay consistent with her mythos etc etc etc. Most of Batmans main villains became iconic because of his movies or cartoons. Same with Lex Luthor. It is not some inherent magic quality within the characters.

Which is why they opt to move them around rather than try to force down the same wall they've failed to overcome for the last 80 years.

I have no idea why they are a better match. You haven´t given me one good reason.

Why is Batman vs Deathstroke a good fight? (It's the same reason)

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@jphulk26 said:

I´ve argued on the message board that sometimes the reason WW´s classical villains don´t work as well as they should is because some of their gimmicks would best suit men. I believe the best example of this has to be Dr. poison who was actually originally a man, but turned out to be a woman in the end. Anyway I think Dr. poison would work so much better as a man, and she does have a great gimmick, but somehow I feel it doesn´t fit a woman, quite as well as a man. I think the villain from Tomb Raider 2 is an excellent example of how Dr. Poison could be repackaged as a made to work as a really great villlian.

See following scene as example:

Loading Video...

What do you think? Agree?

It's all very "Bond Villain" ... personally I think Dr. Poison is a rather weak rogue with a one-off gimmick. Sure she could be a man and sure s/he could probably make for a cool story arc, but not sure what the character offers long term. Might be better if she was more along the lines of Cheshire rather than a mad scientist type IMO

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#37  Edited By dshipp17

@outside_85 said:
@dshipp17 said:

Dr. Psycho wasn't traded to Superboy, he just appeared in a few Superboy issues. As far as I know, Dr. Psycho is still a Wonder Woman villain who has not been allowed to appear in the Wonder Woman comics in these post-Flashpoint days.

  • There is no reason that Dr. Psycho's psychic powers could not work on Wonder Woman, especially if she were separated from her magic lasso at the time of Dr. Psycho's attack.
  • Dr. Psycho makes no sense as a Superboy villain and he makes a perfect complement for Wonder Woman, partly for some of the reasons that you mention.
  • Wonder Woman needs to be forced to earn those noble attributes such as love and compassion; if she can't show those with Dr. Psycho, than she does not deserve those labels; being forced to earn those labels is what makes Dr. Psycho the perfect villain for Wonder Woman.

Except there (so far) has not been established any kind of connection to Diana or even that Psycho has any particular reason to target her.

  • Except in the New 52, Diana's mental fortitude is derived from her godly/demigodly status and not the lasso. (Her own assumption as to why she wasn't taken over by Brainiac)
  • I don't get it; How does pitting Psycho against Superboy make no sense, while it make sense to pit a psychic against a hero he can't even touch with his power and would get broken in half by hers?
  • She earned those attributes during the course of Azzarello's run with her numerous acts of compassion towards the people she encountered.

There has been an established connection between Dr. Psycho and Wonder Woman in an issue of Justice League, although it was a brief cameo by Dr. Psycho; Dr. Psycho was familiar with Wonder Woman. As long as Dr. Psycho has substantially the same background, than he has a reason to target Wonder Woman.

In the Braniac encounter, I think she had already taken over Ares' status. But, this only means that Dr. Psycho can get an upgrade and that resistance may change, if her god of war status is changed. In the mean time, there are other ways that Dr. Psycho can affect Wonder Woman through her friends, until this apparent immunity is done away with, as has been the case for the last 30 years; it's just that Flashpoint and Odyssey presented an opportunity for DC to fix Dr. Psycho or upgrade him.

Pitting Dr. Psycho against Superboy just simply makes no sense, given the root reasons for his creation. He can definitely touch Wonder Woman with his psychic powers, just not most effectively, until her god of war status is changed. Additionally, thanks to Convergence, prior iterations of Dr. Psycho against Wonder Woman now exists. Pitting Dr. Psycho against Superboy makes no sense, because, based on the elements associated with Dr. Psycho's background, he has no reason or motive to want to target someone like Superboy. And, if we were to make an extreme stretch, Superboy is not like a Bradley character, or one of those bullying jock characters that picks on nerds and people over their looks. Dr. Psycho wasn't shaped by being constantly mocked by boys and men, he was shaped by being constantly mocked by girls and women. Superboy was so random a choice that we could almost ask why wasn't Dr. Psycho pitted against Superman, Batman, Lex Luthor, Joker, or Holly Quinn, or, nearly, anybody; the selection just has no significant basis in reality. What's the point, Superboy could break Dr. Psycho in half too, just like Superman can break Lex in half? If there were an alternative character, it should have been Powergirl, Supergirl, or Batgirl. But, actually, I didn't see those Superboy issues (well, I saw the first issue that introduced Dr. Psycho in the Superboy book, but, it was not making any sense; Dr. Psycho was trying to elude someone); why was Dr. Psycho targeting Superboy, or, was he even targeting Superboy? But, it makes a lot more sense to make a character who has issues with his looks be connected with a female character instead of a male character, unless that male character is being portrayed as some type of jerk, an attribute which would not be fitting of a superhero, although it could, I guess, depending on the taste of the modern comic book audience; my taste in a superhero is probably about 20+ years outdated.

Wonder Woman has not earned those attributes during Azzarello's run, especially to the point where she can be considered the personification of those attributes; the only character that can earn those attributes for her is Dr. Psycho or another male character who has insecurity about his looks, but who is also attracted to Wonder Woman; she can only earn those attributes by the way she handles such a character's fragile feelings over the course of multiple issues in many different scenarios; from my perspective, she either failed the test or did an adequate job, if you were thinking about Hades, and a character like Dr. Psycho has more redeeming qualities than Hades, in order to put Diana through her paces for these attributes. And, given that her love interests were Superman and Steve Trevor, I would have to call her shallow and being shallow is a disqualifying factor to be considered the personification of love and compassion.

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@dshipp17 said:

There has been an established connection between Dr. Psycho and Wonder Woman in an issue of Justice League, although it was a brief cameo by Dr. Psycho; Dr. Psycho was familiar with Wonder Woman. As long as Dr. Psycho has substantially the same background, than he has a reason to target Wonder Woman.

In the Braniac encounter, I think she had already taken over Ares' status. But, this only means that Dr. Psycho can get an upgrade and that resistance may change, if her god of war status is changed. In the mean time, there are other ways that Dr. Psycho can affect Wonder Woman through her friends, until this apparent immunity is done away with, as has been the case for the last 30 years; it's just that Flashpoint and Odyssey presented an opportunity for DC to fix Dr. Psycho or upgrade him.

Pitting Dr. Psycho against Superboy just simply makes no sense, given the root reasons for his creation. He can definitely touch Wonder Woman with his psychic powers, just not most effectively, until her god of war status is changed. Additionally, thanks to Convergence, prior iterations of Dr. Psycho against Wonder Woman now exists.

Pitting Dr. Psycho against Superboy makes no sense, because, based on the elements associated with Dr. Psycho's background, he has no reason or motive to want to target someone like Superboy. And, if we were to make an extreme stretch, Superboy is not like a Bradley character, or one of those bullying jock characters that picks on nerds and people over their looks. Dr. Psycho wasn't shaped by being constantly mocked by boys and men, he was shaped by being constantly mocked by girls and women. Superboy was so random a choice that we could almost ask why wasn't Dr. Psycho pitted against Superman, Batman, Lex Luthor, Joker, or Holly Quinn, or, nearly, anybody; the selection just has no significant basis in reality. What's the point, Superboy could break Dr. Psycho in half too, just like Superman can break Lex in half? If there were an alternative character, it should have been Powergirl, Supergirl, or Batgirl. But, actually, I didn't see those Superboy issues (well, I saw the first issue that introduced Dr. Psycho in the Superboy book, but, it was not making any sense; Dr. Psycho was trying to elude someone); why was Dr. Psycho targeting Superboy, or, was he even targeting Superboy? But, it makes a lot more sense to make a character who has issues with his looks be connected with a female character instead of a male character, unless that male character is being portrayed as some type of jerk, an attribute which would not be fitting of a superhero, although it could, I guess, depending on the taste of the modern comic book audience; my taste in a superhero is probably about 20+ years outdated.

Wonder Woman has not earned those attributes during Azzarello's run, especially to the point where she can be considered the personification of those attributes; the only character that can earn those attributes for her is Dr. Psycho or another male character who has insecurity about his looks, but who is also attracted to Wonder Woman; she can only earn those attributes by the way she handles such a character's fragile feelings over the course of multiple issues in many different scenarios; from my perspective, she either failed the test or did an adequate job, if you were thinking about Hades, and a character like Dr. Psycho has more redeeming qualities than Hades, in order to put Diana through her paces for these attributes. And, given that her love interests were Superman and Steve Trevor, I would have to call her shallow and being shallow is a disqualifying factor to be considered the personification of love and compassion.

Its not an established connection between Dr. Psycho and Diana by him mentioning her while speaking to group of 7 other people, it might as well have been Firefly or Killer Croc. As for his origns... no not really, because his origins never explained why Diana ended up in his crosshairs to begin with. She didn't cause him to look like he does, she wasn't the one to pick on him... his entire motivation has always been that he's and ugly guy and she is a pretty woman, and he cant have that. It's the sort of origins a child comes up with when playing with action figures.

Which has basically meant him avoiding all contact with Diana while all her fiends do weird things... until she asks Hephaestus for something to either nullify or simply dampen the effect...

The roots of his creation was hateful caricature of short people and as I said above, equipped with a paper thin reason for going after Diana in the first place. He hasn't been able to touch the main universe version of Diana for the last 30 years thanks to the effects of the Lasso.

You should read the Superboy issues where he appears in before saying that. I did, so I know the reason why he picked up Superboy was because Kon was easy to influence and Psycho needed someone strong in order to get out of his current gig of posing as a fortuneteller that nicked his clients bank accounts. It went to pot ofc. The fallout of that is a better reason for fighting with Superboy than any ever provided for him to pick out Diana. I really cant phantom why two characters powered by psionics going at each other is an idea that's difficult to understand, it's like not getting why Batman fights Bane or Superman fights Mongul.

If you don't think Diana has the biggest heart with compassion and love for everyone who wants it... you either haven't read Azzarello's run, or it slipped under your nose. It's true, she proved it with Hades, she proved it with her own lasso around her neck, with Sirraca, the Manazons, Hera, Demeter, Hermes... even the First Born got it in a fashion. She doesn't need Psycho for any of this.

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#39  Edited By jphulk26

@csg_cl:Yes he seems like a Bond villain (so what? I´d prefer WW to be in that kind of world anyway, than this remote fantastical one she´s in now), but he also deals in finding mystical weapons that erradicate like viruses and plagues in the movie. In the film he´s looking for the Pandora virus. Also I didn´t mean an exact copy of this character, I just meant some of his tone. I think any good villain should go through multiple interpretations, so I´d liketo see him as this kind of character, as a cult leader, as superpowered mystic. Dr. Poison can really do any of those things. The only aspect I´d like to keep as a thread, is the cold, detached element, and his pentient for experimenting on living humans.

@dshipp17: clap, clap, clap. Although, I think Dr. Psycho needs a stronger motive, or more rounded background that explains his mysogny and his powers a bit more. They should have done a graphic novel to update Perrez, years ago.

I think a good way to make Dr. Psycho work is not just make it that he was bullied at school. He could have been excluded at school even though he was a brilliant genius, with an off the charts intellect, but because he was a midget, no one spoke to him, he was virtually just ignored at school. Then at one point some girl humiliates him bad. In the mean time at home he has a psychotic abusive mother at home who is always calling him a gremlin and disgusting, little animal. She always tells him she wished she had a normal boy and he´s a demon just like his father. She even tells him she wishes he was dead. The more she abuses him the more he retreats into his own head, studying all the time.

He excels at school and ends up studying psychology in University and gets a PHD. During his time at university is when his psychic abilities begin to form. He notices how he seems to understand his patients. His growing psyhic abilities helps him understand the fragility of the human mind and finally how women feel about him.

At university after he graduates he continues research in psychology there and falls in love with a girl who is a dead ringer for Diana who he and another normal sized boy are best friends with. He thinks she should fall in love with him because he is brilliant and she is also, so she should understand him, but she breaks his heart when she falls for the normal sized handsome boy. This is when he goes completely nuts, and his dark side begins to take over. Using his psychic powers he mind rapes her, turning her into a vegitable. He can´t forgive himself and destroys the whole university collapsing it around hundreds of students killing them.

He ends up going back to his mother, telling her the story, begging her for understanding. He explains he has these powers and he doesn´t want them. He can´t handle the power and he thinks he´s going to hurt more people. He tells her hejust wants all the voices in his head to stop torturing him. This is when she reveals to him who his father is. She suspects his father was somekind of demon, that seduced her one night in her early teens, and that she knew when she gave birth to him he was a curse from God, for her sinning with that demon. (We leave this as a mystery as to whether this is true or not) While asleep she tries to kill him, but he wakes up and he uses his telepathic powers against her, showing her all his rage, but he ends up absorbing her brainwaves fusing her personality with his. He kills his mother in the process.

Now she´s stuck in his head as an seperate presence, haunting him along with all the voices he can never stop. their all telling him he´s an ugly, little gremlin and that all women hate him and women are all dirty, filthy worthless whores, and that noone will ever love him. The voices, led by his mother, are constantly reminding him that he murdered her. This voices torture him 24/7. The only one who can see this is WW (who also looks the woman he fell in love with at school who he put in a comma), so he ends up having this love/hate relationship with WW. She is able to use the lasso of truth to help him sometimes, but his psychosis is far too powerful. This is also a good reason why he wants to show women his nightmares. Really he´s trying to make them understand his pain but he ends up destroying their minds in the process. The fact that he is tortured by these voices is an excellent reason ww would have compassion for him even though he mind rapes women.

That´s how I would modernise Dr. psycho. Hell, I might even write a story based on that.

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#40  Edited By dshipp17

@outside_85 said:
@dshipp17 said:

There has been an established connection between Dr. Psycho and Wonder Woman in an issue of Justice League, although it was a brief cameo by Dr. Psycho; Dr. Psycho was familiar with Wonder Woman. As long as Dr. Psycho has substantially the same background, than he has a reason to target Wonder Woman.

In the Braniac encounter, I think she had already taken over Ares' status. But, this only means that Dr. Psycho can get an upgrade and that resistance may change, if her god of war status is changed. In the mean time, there are other ways that Dr. Psycho can affect Wonder Woman through her friends, until this apparent immunity is done away with, as has been the case for the last 30 years; it's just that Flashpoint and Odyssey presented an opportunity for DC to fix Dr. Psycho or upgrade him.

Pitting Dr. Psycho against Superboy just simply makes no sense, given the root reasons for his creation. He can definitely touch Wonder Woman with his psychic powers, just not most effectively, until her god of war status is changed. Additionally, thanks to Convergence, prior iterations of Dr. Psycho against Wonder Woman now exists.

Pitting Dr. Psycho against Superboy makes no sense, because, based on the elements associated with Dr. Psycho's background, he has no reason or motive to want to target someone like Superboy. And, if we were to make an extreme stretch, Superboy is not like a Bradley character, or one of those bullying jock characters that picks on nerds and people over their looks. Dr. Psycho wasn't shaped by being constantly mocked by boys and men, he was shaped by being constantly mocked by girls and women. Superboy was so random a choice that we could almost ask why wasn't Dr. Psycho pitted against Superman, Batman, Lex Luthor, Joker, or Holly Quinn, or, nearly, anybody; the selection just has no significant basis in reality. What's the point, Superboy could break Dr. Psycho in half too, just like Superman can break Lex in half? If there were an alternative character, it should have been Powergirl, Supergirl, or Batgirl. But, actually, I didn't see those Superboy issues (well, I saw the first issue that introduced Dr. Psycho in the Superboy book, but, it was not making any sense; Dr. Psycho was trying to elude someone); why was Dr. Psycho targeting Superboy, or, was he even targeting Superboy? But, it makes a lot more sense to make a character who has issues with his looks be connected with a female character instead of a male character, unless that male character is being portrayed as some type of jerk, an attribute which would not be fitting of a superhero, although it could, I guess, depending on the taste of the modern comic book audience; my taste in a superhero is probably about 20+ years outdated.

Wonder Woman has not earned those attributes during Azzarello's run, especially to the point where she can be considered the personification of those attributes; the only character that can earn those attributes for her is Dr. Psycho or another male character who has insecurity about his looks, but who is also attracted to Wonder Woman; she can only earn those attributes by the way she handles such a character's fragile feelings over the course of multiple issues in many different scenarios; from my perspective, she either failed the test or did an adequate job, if you were thinking about Hades, and a character like Dr. Psycho has more redeeming qualities than Hades, in order to put Diana through her paces for these attributes. And, given that her love interests were Superman and Steve Trevor, I would have to call her shallow and being shallow is a disqualifying factor to be considered the personification of love and compassion.

Its not an established connection between Dr. Psycho and Diana by him mentioning her while speaking to group of 7 other people, it might as well have been Firefly or Killer Croc. As for his origns... no not really, because his origins never explained why Diana ended up in his crosshairs to begin with. She didn't cause him to look like he does, she wasn't the one to pick on him... his entire motivation has always been that he's and ugly guy and she is a pretty woman, and he cant have that. It's the sort of origins a child comes up with when playing with action figures.

Which has basically meant him avoiding all contact with Diana while all her fiends do weird things... until she asks Hephaestus for something to either nullify or simply dampen the effect...

The roots of his creation was hateful caricature of short people and as I said above, equipped with a paper thin reason for going after Diana in the first place. He hasn't been able to touch the main universe version of Diana for the last 30 years thanks to the effects of the Lasso.

You should read the Superboy issues where he appears in before saying that. I did, so I know the reason why he picked up Superboy was because Kon was easy to influence and Psycho needed someone strong in order to get out of his current gig of posing as a fortuneteller that nicked his clients bank accounts. It went to pot ofc. The fallout of that is a better reason for fighting with Superboy than any ever provided for him to pick out Diana. I really cant phantom why two characters powered by psionics going at each other is an idea that's difficult to understand, it's like not getting why Batman fights Bane or Superman fights Mongul.

If you don't think Diana has the biggest heart with compassion and love for everyone who wants it... you either haven't read Azzarello's run, or it slipped under your nose. It's true, she proved it with Hades, she proved it with her own lasso around her neck, with Sirraca, the Manazons, Hera, Demeter, Hermes... even the First Born got it in a fashion. She doesn't need Psycho for any of this.

Dr. Psycho mentioning Wonder Woman was clearly meant to establish a connection between the two characters, as it's Dr. Psycho mentioning Wonder Woman, as a previously established Wonder Woman villain; not having a past connection as a main villain, Firefly or Killer Croc would not have established a connection; it just takes a bit of an ability to extrapolate, via the character mentioning Wonder Woman being Dr. Psycho. Wonder Woman is in his cross hairs by being a prominent female; and, his developing an obsession for Wonder Woman based on her ideal features as a woman; most men who are sexually active towards women can see the reasons why Dr. Psycho would have an obsession for Wonder Woman, even if it starts as a love/hate connection. One could easily make a connection, since any close encounter between the two characters could lead a character like Dr. Psycho to perceive any behavior by Wonder Woman as a slight by Wonder Woman, even though Wonder Woman may or may not have intended the situation to be a slight towards Dr. Psycho; it's more in observing how Wonder Woman addresses a real or perceived slight from the perspective of Dr. Psycho; does she take the time to correct any misunderstandings from Dr. Psycho? It's opportunities to be able to gauge the character of Wonder Woman under the right types of circumstances. His being ugly and possibly not being able to have Wonder Woman is as powerful as Lex Luthor being envious of Superman; it leads to story development and character development between Dr. Psycho and Wonder Woman; it helps us understand Dr. Psycho as well as we understand Lex Luthor; but, in the case of Batman and Joker, it's probably more understanding the Batman character whether than really understanding the Joker character; Batman is trying to understand a character like the Joker, while the Joker thinks he's just getting a long with his life; so, in that way, Dr. Psycho is trying to understand Wonder Woman as she tries to move on with her life; it's actually like an even deeper connection with Dr. Psycho towards Wonder Woman than Lex to Superman and Joker to Batman, provided the dynamics are first presented, and than handled correctly and over time.

Again, there just isn't a connection between Superboy and Dr. Psycho at all, yet along the strong emotional connection that male readers should feel when Dr. Psycho interacts with Wonder Woman; just needing to use Superboy as a weapon to escape a predicament is just the thing built for a one story arc interaction; there's no need for any further connection after that, unless Superboy develops a grudge against Dr. Psycho; and, no, it wouldn't make more sense to go after someone with psychic powers over someone without psychic powers who you're obsession with and would like to make love with, being a character with psychic powers; it's definitely something of consideration for a male audience who is attracted to beautiful women; shouldn't be hard to understand at all for other men or even women.

No, those examples that you provided does not allow me to equate Wonder Woman as the personification of love and compassion; of those, it took the most to interact with Hera; given her background as an Amazon, that took no impressive effort to achieve to show her compassion; Hermes was an attractive male or there are incarnations of him as an attractive male; it proves she's shallow; the examples you gave made her only little more compassionate and capable of love as Lex Luthor; any comic book hero could show love and compassion in those circumstances. although First Born was full of hate he was not that way because of how he felt about his looks; we're trying to consider her the personification of love and compassion; that's not possible without extensive interaction with Dr. Psycho in many different situations, as his issues relate to insecurities about his looks; or, as I said, bring in another character who is normal height, as long as he's ugly and insecure about his looks.

@jphulk26 said:

@csg_cl:Yes he seems like a Bond villain (so what? I´d prefer WW to be in that kind of world anyway, than this remote fantastical one she´s in now), but he also deals in finding mystical weapons that erradicate like viruses and plagues in the movie. In the film he´s looking for the Pandora virus. Also I didn´t mean an exact copy of this character, I just meant some of his tone. I think any good villain should go through multiple interpretations, so I´d liketo see him as this kind of character, as a cult leader, as superpowered mystic. Dr. Poison can really do any of those things. The only aspect I´d like to keep as a thread, is the cold, detached element, and his pentient for experimenting on living humans.

@dshipp17: clap, clap, clap. Although, I think Dr. Psycho needs a stronger motive, or more rounded background that explains his mysogny and his powers a bit more. They should have done a graphic novel to update Perrez, years ago.

I think a good way to make Dr. Psycho work is not just make it that he was bullied at school. He could have been excluded at school even though he was a brilliant genius, with an off the charts intellect, but because he was a midget, no one spoke to him, he was virtually just ignored at school. Then at one point some girl humiliates him bad. In the mean time at home he has a psychotic abusive mother at home who is always calling him a gremlin and disgusting, little animal. She always tells him she wished she had a normal boy and he´s a demon just like his father. She even tells him she wishes he was dead. The more she abuses him the more he retreats into his own head, studying all the time.

He excels at school and ends up studying psychology in University and gets a PHD. During his time at university is when his psychic abilities begin to form. He notices how he seems to understand his patients. His growing psyhic abilities helps him understand the fragility of the human mind and finally how women feel about him.

At university after he graduates he continues research in psychology there and falls in love with a girl who is a dead ringer for Diana who he and another normal sized boy are best friends with. He thinks she should fall in love with him because he is brilliant and she is also, so she should understand him, but she breaks his heart when she falls for the normal sized handsome boy. This is when he goes completely nuts, and his dark side begins to take over. Using his psychic powers he mind rapes her, turning her into a vegitable. He can´t forgive himself and destroys the whole university collapsing it around hundreds of students killing them.

He ends up going back to his mother, telling her the story, begging her for understanding. He explains he has these powers and he doesn´t want them. He can´t handle the power and he thinks he´s going to hurt more people. He tells her hejust wants all the voices in his head to stop torturing him. This is when she reveals to him who his father is. She suspects his father was somekind of demon, that seduced her one night in her early teens, and that she knew when she gave birth to him he was a curse from God, for her sinning with that demon. (We leave this as a mystery as to whether this is true or not) While asleep she tries to kill him, but he wakes up and he uses his telepathic powers against her, showing her all his rage, but he ends up absorbing her brainwaves fusing her personality with his. He kills his mother in the process.

Now she´s stuck in his head as an seperate presence, haunting him along with all the voices he can never stop. their all telling him he´s an ugly, little gremlin and that all women hate him and women are all dirty, filthy worthless whores, and that noone will ever love him. The voices, led by his mother, are constantly reminding him that he murdered her. This voices torture him 24/7. The only one who can see this is WW (who also looks the woman he fell in love with at school who he put in a comma), so he ends up having this love/hate relationship with WW. She is able to use the lasso of truth to help him sometimes, but his psychosis is far too powerful. This is also a good reason why he wants to show women his nightmares. Really he´s trying to make them understand his pain but he ends up destroying their minds in the process. The fact that he is tortured by these voices is an excellent reason ww would have compassion for him even though he mind rapes women.

That´s how I would modernise Dr. psycho. Hell, I might even write a story based on that.

Yes, that's because there's so little of Dr. Psycho in the Wonder Woman comics causing it to be so little in the way of his development as a character/villain for Wonder Woman. Those are good ideas, but Dr. Psycho wasn't just bullied in school; he was bullied throughout school, throughout college, and into adulthood; he was mocked by women until he snapped into being a villain, because of prolonged trauma caused by those women mocking him over his looks; it's a situation that's orders of magnitude more serious than being picked on in junior high school; you just need to be able to extrapolate that feature about the character; I'm working on upgrading Dr. Psycho right now and I'm about to post my second installment of my Wonder Woman shortly. I still might need a few moire days; actually, I have a second installment, it's just incomplete; I'll post it.

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#41  Edited By jphulk26

@dshipp17 said:
@outside_85 said:
@dshipp17 said:

There has been an established connection between Dr. Psycho and Wonder Woman in an issue of Justice League, although it was a brief cameo by Dr. Psycho; Dr. Psycho was familiar with Wonder Woman. As long as Dr. Psycho has substantially the same background, than he has a reason to target Wonder Woman.

In the Braniac encounter, I think she had already taken over Ares' status. But, this only means that Dr. Psycho can get an upgrade and that resistance may change, if her god of war status is changed. In the mean time, there are other ways that Dr. Psycho can affect Wonder Woman through her friends, until this apparent immunity is done away with, as has been the case for the last 30 years; it's just that Flashpoint and Odyssey presented an opportunity for DC to fix Dr. Psycho or upgrade him.

Pitting Dr. Psycho against Superboy just simply makes no sense, given the root reasons for his creation. He can definitely touch Wonder Woman with his psychic powers, just not most effectively, until her god of war status is changed. Additionally, thanks to Convergence, prior iterations of Dr. Psycho against Wonder Woman now exists.

Pitting Dr. Psycho against Superboy makes no sense, because, based on the elements associated with Dr. Psycho's background, he has no reason or motive to want to target someone like Superboy. And, if we were to make an extreme stretch, Superboy is not like a Bradley character, or one of those bullying jock characters that picks on nerds and people over their looks. Dr. Psycho wasn't shaped by being constantly mocked by boys and men, he was shaped by being constantly mocked by girls and women. Superboy was so random a choice that we could almost ask why wasn't Dr. Psycho pitted against Superman, Batman, Lex Luthor, Joker, or Holly Quinn, or, nearly, anybody; the selection just has no significant basis in reality. What's the point, Superboy could break Dr. Psycho in half too, just like Superman can break Lex in half? If there were an alternative character, it should have been Powergirl, Supergirl, or Batgirl. But, actually, I didn't see those Superboy issues (well, I saw the first issue that introduced Dr. Psycho in the Superboy book, but, it was not making any sense; Dr. Psycho was trying to elude someone); why was Dr. Psycho targeting Superboy, or, was he even targeting Superboy? But, it makes a lot more sense to make a character who has issues with his looks be connected with a female character instead of a male character, unless that male character is being portrayed as some type of jerk, an attribute which would not be fitting of a superhero, although it could, I guess, depending on the taste of the modern comic book audience; my taste in a superhero is probably about 20+ years outdated.

Wonder Woman has not earned those attributes during Azzarello's run, especially to the point where she can be considered the personification of those attributes; the only character that can earn those attributes for her is Dr. Psycho or another male character who has insecurity about his looks, but who is also attracted to Wonder Woman; she can only earn those attributes by the way she handles such a character's fragile feelings over the course of multiple issues in many different scenarios; from my perspective, she either failed the test or did an adequate job, if you were thinking about Hades, and a character like Dr. Psycho has more redeeming qualities than Hades, in order to put Diana through her paces for these attributes. And, given that her love interests were Superman and Steve Trevor, I would have to call her shallow and being shallow is a disqualifying factor to be considered the personification of love and compassion.

Its not an established connection between Dr. Psycho and Diana by him mentioning her while speaking to group of 7 other people, it might as well have been Firefly or Killer Croc. As for his origns... no not really, because his origins never explained why Diana ended up in his crosshairs to begin with. She didn't cause him to look like he does, she wasn't the one to pick on him... his entire motivation has always been that he's and ugly guy and she is a pretty woman, and he cant have that. It's the sort of origins a child comes up with when playing with action figures.

Which has basically meant him avoiding all contact with Diana while all her fiends do weird things... until she asks Hephaestus for something to either nullify or simply dampen the effect...

The roots of his creation was hateful caricature of short people and as I said above, equipped with a paper thin reason for going after Diana in the first place. He hasn't been able to touch the main universe version of Diana for the last 30 years thanks to the effects of the Lasso.

You should read the Superboy issues where he appears in before saying that. I did, so I know the reason why he picked up Superboy was because Kon was easy to influence and Psycho needed someone strong in order to get out of his current gig of posing as a fortuneteller that nicked his clients bank accounts. It went to pot ofc. The fallout of that is a better reason for fighting with Superboy than any ever provided for him to pick out Diana. I really cant phantom why two characters powered by psionics going at each other is an idea that's difficult to understand, it's like not getting why Batman fights Bane or Superman fights Mongul.

If you don't think Diana has the biggest heart with compassion and love for everyone who wants it... you either haven't read Azzarello's run, or it slipped under your nose. It's true, she proved it with Hades, she proved it with her own lasso around her neck, with Sirraca, the Manazons, Hera, Demeter, Hermes... even the First Born got it in a fashion. She doesn't need Psycho for any of this.

Dr. Psycho mentioning Wonder Woman was clearly meant to establish a connection between the two characters, as it's Dr. Psycho mentioning Wonder Woman, as a previously established Wonder Woman villain; not having a past connection as a main villain, Firefly or Killer Croc would not have established a connection; it just takes a bit of an ability to extrapolate, via the character mentioning Wonder Woman being Dr. Psycho. Wonder Woman is in his cross hairs by being a prominent female; and, his developing an obsession for Wonder Woman based on her ideal features as a woman; most men who are sexually active towards women can see the reasons why Dr. Psycho would have an obsession for Wonder Woman, even if it starts as a love/hate connection. One could easily make a connection, since any close encounter between the two characters could lead a character like Dr. Psycho to perceive any behavior by Wonder Woman as a slight by Wonder Woman, even though Wonder Woman may or may not have intended the situation to be a slight towards Dr. Psycho; it's more in observing how Wonder Woman addresses a real or perceived slight from the perspective of Dr. Psycho; does she take the time to correct any misunderstandings from Dr. Psycho? It's opportunities to be able to gauge the character of Wonder Woman under the right types of circumstances. His being ugly and possibly not being able to have Wonder Woman is as powerful as Lex Luthor being envious of Superman; it leads to story development and character development between Dr. Psycho and Wonder Woman; it helps us understand Dr. Psycho as well as we understand Lex Luthor; but, in the case of Batman and Joker, it's probably more understanding the Batman character whether than really understanding the Joker character; Batman is trying to understand a character like the Joker, while the Joker thinks he's just getting a long with his life; so, in that way, Dr. Psycho is trying to understand Wonder Woman as she tries to move on with her life; it's actually like an even deeper connection with Dr. Psycho towards Wonder Woman than Lex to Superman and Joker to Batman, provided the dynamics are first presented, and than handled correctly and over time.

Again, there just isn't a connection between Superboy and Dr. Psycho at all, yet along the strong emotional connection that male readers should feel when Dr. Psycho interacts with Wonder Woman; just needing to use Superboy as a weapon to escape a predicament is just the thing built for a one story arc interaction; there's no need for any further connection after that, unless Superboy develops a grudge against Dr. Psycho; and, no, it wouldn't make more sense to go after someone with psychic powers over someone without psychic powers who you're obsession with and would like to make love with, being a character with psychic powers; it's definitely something of consideration for a male audience who is attracted to beautiful women; shouldn't be hard to understand at all for other men or even women.

No, those examples that you provided does not allow me to equate Wonder Woman as the personification of love and compassion; of those, it took the most to interact with Hera; given her background as an Amazon, that took no impressive effort to achieve to show her compassion; Hermes was an attractive male or there are incarnations of him as an attractive male; it proves she's shallow; the examples you gave made her only little more compassionate and capable of love as Lex Luthor; any comic book hero could show love and compassion in those circumstances. although First Born was full of hate he was not that way because of how he felt about his looks; we're trying to consider her the personification of love and compassion; that's not possible without extensive interaction with Dr. Psycho in many different situations, as his issues relate to insecurities about his looks; or, as I said, bring in another character who is normal height, as long as he's ugly and insecure about his looks.

@jphulk26 said:

@csg_cl:Yes he seems like a Bond villain (so what? I´d prefer WW to be in that kind of world anyway, than this remote fantastical one she´s in now), but he also deals in finding mystical weapons that erradicate like viruses and plagues in the movie. In the film he´s looking for the Pandora virus. Also I didn´t mean an exact copy of this character, I just meant some of his tone. I think any good villain should go through multiple interpretations, so I´d liketo see him as this kind of character, as a cult leader, as superpowered mystic. Dr. Poison can really do any of those things. The only aspect I´d like to keep as a thread, is the cold, detached element, and his pentient for experimenting on living humans.

@dshipp17: clap, clap, clap. Although, I think Dr. Psycho needs a stronger motive, or more rounded background that explains his mysogny and his powers a bit more. They should have done a graphic novel to update Perrez, years ago.

I think a good way to make Dr. Psycho work is not just make it that he was bullied at school. He could have been excluded at school even though he was a brilliant genius, with an off the charts intellect, but because he was a midget, no one spoke to him, he was virtually just ignored at school. Then at one point some girl humiliates him bad. In the mean time at home he has a psychotic abusive mother at home who is always calling him a gremlin and disgusting, little animal. She always tells him she wished she had a normal boy and he´s a demon just like his father. She even tells him she wishes he was dead. The more she abuses him the more he retreats into his own head, studying all the time.

He excels at school and ends up studying psychology in University and gets a PHD. During his time at university is when his psychic abilities begin to form. He notices how he seems to understand his patients. His growing psyhic abilities helps him understand the fragility of the human mind and finally how women feel about him.

At university after he graduates he continues research in psychology there and falls in love with a girl who is a dead ringer for Diana who he and another normal sized boy are best friends with. He thinks she should fall in love with him because he is brilliant and she is also, so she should understand him, but she breaks his heart when she falls for the normal sized handsome boy. This is when he goes completely nuts, and his dark side begins to take over. Using his psychic powers he mind rapes her, turning her into a vegitable. He can´t forgive himself and destroys the whole university collapsing it around hundreds of students killing them.

He ends up going back to his mother, telling her the story, begging her for understanding. He explains he has these powers and he doesn´t want them. He can´t handle the power and he thinks he´s going to hurt more people. He tells her hejust wants all the voices in his head to stop torturing him. This is when she reveals to him who his father is. She suspects his father was somekind of demon, that seduced her one night in her early teens, and that she knew when she gave birth to him he was a curse from God, for her sinning with that demon. (We leave this as a mystery as to whether this is true or not) While asleep she tries to kill him, but he wakes up and he uses his telepathic powers against her, showing her all his rage, but he ends up absorbing her brainwaves fusing her personality with his. He kills his mother in the process.

Now she´s stuck in his head as an seperate presence, haunting him along with all the voices he can never stop. their all telling him he´s an ugly, little gremlin and that all women hate him and women are all dirty, filthy worthless whores, and that noone will ever love him. The voices, led by his mother, are constantly reminding him that he murdered her. This voices torture him 24/7. The only one who can see this is WW (who also looks the woman he fell in love with at school who he put in a comma), so he ends up having this love/hate relationship with WW. She is able to use the lasso of truth to help him sometimes, but his psychosis is far too powerful. This is also a good reason why he wants to show women his nightmares. Really he´s trying to make them understand his pain but he ends up destroying their minds in the process. The fact that he is tortured by these voices is an excellent reason ww would have compassion for him even though he mind rapes women.

That´s how I would modernise Dr. psycho. Hell, I might even write a story based on that.

Yes, that's because there's so little of Dr. Psycho in the Wonder Woman comics causing it to be so little in the way of his development as a character/villain for Wonder Woman. Those are good ideas, but Dr. Psycho wasn't just bullied in school; he was bullied throughout school, throughout college, and into adulthood; he was mocked by women until he snapped into being a villain, because of prolonged trauma caused by those women mocking him over his looks; it's a situation that's orders of magnitude more serious than being picked on in junior high school; you just need to be able to extrapolate that feature about the character; I'm working on upgrading Dr. Psycho right now and I'm about to post my second installment of my Wonder Woman shortly. I still might need a few moire days; actually, I have a second installment, it's just incomplete; I'll post it.

Look forward to it. I´ll read it. The one problem with my character is I want to give him more agency. I also don´t want him to sympathetic. Maybe if I make the mother the dominant personality. I mean I don´t want him too crazy, so he can´t scheme and really cause WW problems on various levels. Psychological as well as physical.

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CSG_CL

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@jphulk26 said:

@csg_cl:Yes he seems like a Bond villain (so what? I´d prefer WW to be in that kind of world anyway, than this remote fantastical one she´s in now), but he also deals in finding mystical weapons that erradicate like viruses and plagues in the movie. In the film he´s looking for the Pandora virus. Also I didn´t mean an exact copy of this character, I just meant some of his tone. I think any good villain should go through multiple interpretations, so I´d liketo see him as this kind of character, as a cult leader, as superpowered mystic. Dr. Poison can really do any of those things. The only aspect I´d like to keep as a thread, is the cold, detached element, and his pentient for experimenting on living humans.

Bondesque villains are sort of silly... what possible threat to Diana does Dr. Poison play? She's immune to things like the Amazo Virus, and another arc like that is only interesting for a one-off or short arc. The above description is starting to meld several characters into Dr. Poison (Zara and Barbara Minerva at least... you're sort of frankensteining Villainy Inc into a single character). I think that's a good idea, but I'm not sure Dr. Poison fits the description anymore ... Zara or Queen Clea or even Jinx would be better options IMO

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jphulk26

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@csg_cl said:
@jphulk26 said:

@csg_cl:Yes he seems like a Bond villain (so what? I´d prefer WW to be in that kind of world anyway, than this remote fantastical one she´s in now), but he also deals in finding mystical weapons that erradicate like viruses and plagues in the movie. In the film he´s looking for the Pandora virus. Also I didn´t mean an exact copy of this character, I just meant some of his tone. I think any good villain should go through multiple interpretations, so I´d liketo see him as this kind of character, as a cult leader, as superpowered mystic. Dr. Poison can really do any of those things. The only aspect I´d like to keep as a thread, is the cold, detached element, and his pentient for experimenting on living humans.

Bondesque villains are sort of silly... what possible threat to Diana does Dr. Poison play? She's immune to things like the Amazo Virus, and another arc like that is only interesting for a one-off or short arc. The above description is starting to meld several characters into Dr. Poison (Zara and Barbara Minerva at least... you're sort of frankensteining Villainy Inc into a single character). I think that's a good idea, but I'm not sure Dr. Poison fits the description anymore ... Zara or Queen Clea or even Jinx would be better options IMO

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I´m ºthinking modern Bond/Jason Bourne. Not old school. Plus WW isn´t exactly known for not having unsilly villains.

There are pleanty of ways to use villians like Dr. Poison, even with him being less powerful. He´s should have so much intellectual vanity that he is willing to take her on anyway. I should add a lot of villains in recent history have not exactly been a match for the heroes, especially in the films. Look at Scarecrow in Batman Begins. He´s hardly a big time match for Batman as opposed to a minor speed bump to batmans ultimate goal. I just think there´s so many ways you can interpret Dr. Poison that it´s not even a question of whether he can physically match WW as long as he can intellectually and psychologically challenge her. You need both types of villains.