My Thoughts On Thors Combat Speed

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Cream_God

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Edited By Cream_God

Purpose of this blog:

To just make public my thoughts on the subject, its a very controversial topic that has lead to flame wars and trolls bumping Thor threads just to call him "Slowdinson", but mainly to point out some key elements on some scans that get posted to contradict others or to prove a point. Id recommend you please read this blog with a open mind and dont start a flame war in the comments section. So let me begin to break down some different showings of Thor.

Thors "high" showings:

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Probably Thor highest reaction feat, Ego comes by Thor while Ego is flying in space at MFTL speeds (hyperspace) and Thor chases after him, very clear cut.

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So first we have Quicksilver rather easily dodging Thors lightning the Thor hitting him with a small AoE attack. What this is implies is that Thor can doe AoEs faster than lighting...however some things to note, Thor appears to be leaping during his lighting blast suggesting it was just a diversion to open QS up for a attack so thats a possibility, but nothing really concrete.

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Here we have Thor bullrushing DS Sentry, however it is to note Thor had just hit him with a Omnidirectional lighting blast so he was probably phased so nothing to suggest he could do this again without stunning Sentry again.

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Why is this a "high" showing you may ask? Well because Iron Mans blasts are light speed...

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And you can see Thor deflecting one. If it was a block or dodge you could suggest Thor was reacting to Tonys aim, but Thor deflected it which is pure reacting to the blast itself.

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This scan shows Thor moving like a blur and speeding past Silver Surfer who has MFTL combat speed, this can suggest 2 things, 1 that Thor can bull rush so fast not even Silver Surfer can react to it or 2 he simply tricked Silver Surfer who thought they were just gonna kamikaze each other.

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Here Thor is fast enough to land a punch in a couple of microseconds then catch Mjolnir. This suggest he can fight in microseconds. This is one scan I dont get why it causes so many on the defensive when Iron Fist is also stated to have Microsecond combat speed.

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This scan shows Hyperion bullrushing Thor then being swatted away, however it is to note Hyperion was able to actually make contact with Thor before Thor swatted him away. This is honestly a better durability scan than a combat speed scan considering Hyperion barely hurt Thor at all.

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Here we have a Warrior Madness Thor beating up Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock and Warlock commenting that he moves like the lightning he commands. However this is a amped Thor so we dont know if Thors combat speed got increased or not.

Thors "low" showings:

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Here we have a manipulated Wolverine vs a holding back Thor, in these scans Wolverine is dodging Thors strikes, but Thor grabs Wolverines leg and tosses him, Wolverine even comments on how Sabretooth (who he thought was Thor) had "traded speed for strength". Then Thor uses a AoE to knock down Wolverine. The statement where Thor thinks "he is faster than I-" is probably not Thor admitting Wolverine is faster than him considering the previous thought where it was clear Wolverine interrupted him when he thought "he dodges my fiercest blows with the ease of a-".

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Here we have Mongoose avoiding Thor and moving around him, however people ignore that Thor did a rapid span and tagged him plus was keeping pace. However this scan is from Tom Defalcos run which had a lot of inconsistencies such as Thor struggling to hold up a incomplete skyscraper (in the same issue with Mongoose in fact)

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and Thor not being able to survive in space

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So it should probably be disregarded.

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Here we have Thunderstrike (not actual Thor) struggling with a exercise about "combat instincts" and reflexes" and Cap comments that Thor had problems as well. This is Thunderstrike who Thor is superior to in combat speed

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And another thing to note is that Thor had problems with it, which could mean he still does, trained and its no longer a problem, or he struggled for another reason.

My thoughts on Thors combat speed:

Some of you may have seen me post this analogy, but i view Thor the same I view a baseball player, he cant move like what hes trying to hit, but he can react and hit it. This is clear by the 1st scan i posted of Thor reacting to Ego moving at MFTL speeds, Thor reacted to him and chased after him. Then there is the scan of Thor swatting away Iron Mans repulsor blasts like a baseball player would. But its clear from the "low" showings that Thor isnt a very agile character and can be outmaneuvered a bit....but here is what people miss in the "high" & "low" showings....in Thors "high" showings you usually see him flying meanwhile in the low showings you see him "grounded", so what does that mean? While flying Thors combat speed is greatly boosted due to Mjolnirs speed and momentum which allows him to bull rush at FTL speeds however without it hes not very agile and cant go after anyone of significant speed as shown in the Wolverine scan. That does not mean anyone with super speed can "blitz him" as he has the reflexes to react to things that are lightspeed+ as shown in the Ego and Iron Man scan. When people mention the "low showings" they forget that is a grounded Thor whos not flying while the people using the "high" showings forget thats a flying Thor. So to sum it up

  1. A grounded Thor isnt a very fast Thor and can be dodged by a lot of people.
  2. A flying Thor is a fast Thor that can bullrush someone very fast and chase after them.
  3. Flying or grounded Thor has the reflexes to react to fast things, however if those fast things are agile then they can avoid Thor for a bit.

Conclusion:

I hope you enjoyed reading this blog, i don't normally post anything like this so im sorry if its not formatted correctly. I hope this blog makes some things clear and changes some of the treatment Thor gets, however i know thats not likely cause......

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Anyways thank you for your time and have a great rest of your day :D

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Cream_God

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Petey_is_Spidey

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With the exception of that bullcrap Wolverine battle, OF Thor has shown he can have near light combat speed, maybe even FTL. It's his classic incarnation that's the slow poke.

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deactivated-5edd330f57b65

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Nice write up. Thor has had many high and low showings, which has led me to believe that he can move at superhuman speeds and can even fight at superhuman speeds when he needs to, but doesn't do it often.

I like your explanation of him being able to react to super fast things but not being able to fight that fast without Mjolnir. I still consider microsecond strike time superhuman though

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Spambot

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#5  Edited By Spambot

Its hard to say exactly what his reaction/combat speed is but he has shown that he can literally react and speed blitz faster than people like SS can react to. There is another scan that happens soon after Odin head butted Galactus where Thor and Surfer are in the middle of fighting and then when they see those two crashing toward earth and they both stop fighting to get to them but it clearly shows Thor being ahead of Surfer which shows you quickly Thor can accelerate when he wants to. He was quicker than Surfer in terms of reacting and traveling over to where they were falling.

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Cream_God

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@spambot said:

Its hard to say exactly what his reaction/combat speed is but he has shown that he can literally react and speed blitz faster than people like SS can react to. There is another scan that happens soon after Odin head butted Galactus where Thor and Surfer are in the middle of fighting and then when they see those two crashing toward earth and go to them and they both stop fighting to get to them but it clearly shows Thor being ahead of Surfer which shows you quickly Thor can accelerate when he wants to. He was quicker than Surfer in terms of reacting and traveling over to where they were falling.

Exactly, with Mjolnir he can go very fast....its just when hes not using it do you have the low showings

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Asgaard

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#7  Edited By Asgaard

@cgoodness said:
@spambot said:

Its hard to say exactly what his reaction/combat speed is but he has shown that he can literally react and speed blitz faster than people like SS can react to. There is another scan that happens soon after Odin head butted Galactus where Thor and Surfer are in the middle of fighting and then when they see those two crashing toward earth and go to them and they both stop fighting to get to them but it clearly shows Thor being ahead of Surfer which shows you quickly Thor can accelerate when he wants to. He was quicker than Surfer in terms of reacting and traveling over to where they were falling.

Exactly, with Mjolnir he can go very fast....its just when hes not using it do you have the low showings

Well he fought Angela and the Beyonders without Mjolnir and was great...

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AsgardianXeno929

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I feel like the quicksilver scan proves the wolverine scan to be inaccurate since he says he has vanquished fleeter foes (surfer for example). I doubt he'd call wolverine faster than himself while downplaying quicksilver's speed, I think he was just saying wolverine was faster than he expected because as wolverine's ally he's never on the receiving end of his combat speed.

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uugieboogie

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Good write up, its very well put together. When it comes to Thor's speed people don't do their research and they someone put something on this website so they just run with it. Thor has the reactions to see whats coming but not the ability to move his limbs as fast as he can perceive which is why he uses a lot of AoE attacks. And I would like to add that speed is one of the most inconsistent things in comics. You have characters that are suppose to be MFTL yet get tagged by people that are even bullet timers consistently. Every characters has had multiple low showings and speed low showings, but for some reason people tend to only focus on Thor's.

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Thor-Parker

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Nice blog, Thor definitely has superhuman speed, not as fast as many powerhouses, but he is definitely not slower than street levelers, and only Thor haters claim that, it´s reallly clear the users in here that don´t like Thor and go around spreading misinformation, I could name them right now, but the OP said not to start a flame war so I won´t, I am using all the will power I have not to tag the ignorant user who just humilliated himself more (which I didn´t think was possible) by calling Thor a "barbarian street leveler", that´s just a whole new level of dumb.

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Cream_God

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@asgaard: True but remember when Angela was trying to get away she did? Thor doesn't have problems when the foe is trying to fight back he has problems when they try to avoid him.

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Asgaard

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@asgaard: True but remember when Angela was trying to get away she did? Thor doesn't have problems when the foe is trying to fight back he has problems when they try to avoid him.

You are right... And we can't forget from the narrative point of view... From someone who isn't fascinated with feats i appreciate your writing and reasoning...

Don't worry about the haters they probably don't read what they post, or don't have notion of nonsense...

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ThEBeStOfTheBeST

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He had micro second reaction speed ! He can See FTL from what i've heard :-/

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Rpgesus

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#14  Edited By Rpgesus

Thor is dope

Always wanted to make a thread about why I think thor is actually rather fast but then I realize what other people think about how fast a comic character is irrelevant lil

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hercuthor

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As lame of an answer as it is honestly "he's as fast or slow as the writer wants or needs". Often times in his own comic there is never an mention of him being slow rather they comment on his fast as the lightening he commands speed.

While in team books or someone else's they need to find a weakness for him so that it's just not always "Thor solos" When it comes to someone like Thor the "easiest" thing is to just go "meh he wasn't ya know fast enough or something"

My two cents, food for thought maybe

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HeirToTheKingdom

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@cgoodness: This was good as I believe the Vine needed this. They tend to pick on Thor's lower showing of speed, but many other characters have had their fair share. In fact many characters who are supposed to excel in the speed department have low showings, but no one seems to care for there's. Great write up.

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HeirToTheKingdom

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@hercuthor: Exactly, it's kind of like he's powerful, so let's take away something that will still keep him powerful, but won't make him be all too effective with it. So they take away his speed.

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RealityWarper

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I retract my statements about Thor being similar to Captain America...


He is closer to Spider-man in stats of overall speed and agility, as surprising as it sounds.

He, of course, lack the skills of Captain America and the flexibility and uncanny style of the spider.

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Thor is definitely close to the high-end street levelers when we looks at his stats of speed, reflexes and agility but he lacks the high skills that some of them own as he acts like a brute. He clearly don't have the finesse of a Captain America or a Wolverine.

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HeirToTheKingdom

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I retract my statements about Thor being similar to Captain America...

He is closer to Spider-man in stats of overall speed and agility, as surprising as it sounds.

He, of course, lack the skills of Captain America and the flexibility and uncanny style of the spider.

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Thor is definitely close to the high-end street levelers when we looks at his stats of speed, reflexes and agility but he lacks the high skills that some of them own as he acts like a brute. He clearly don't have the finesse of a Captain America or a Wolverine.

Neither does most characters, but they're still considered fast.

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RealityWarper

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Neither does most characters, but they're still considered fast.

There is several reasons to that but as I repeated many times : speed is the thing the most overrated and misunderstood on this site.

People don't get that Superman & Thor lacks the finesse and high training of the street-leveler when it comes to a fight.

That's why Wolverine and Wonder Woman are more similar despite the gap between them in physical stats : their high training allow them to attack & block / parry faster than character whom lacks of training like Superman & Thor.

Superman is seen as a speedster and Thor don't just because Superman runs faster but when it comes to a fight that's not that true.

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Redatom1234

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@realitywarper: actually the thing about speed is that they are measured on levels and consistency.

Calling Thor slow is an dxaggeration, but calling him fast enough is as well. Thor has speed, but his speed is limited, he can react to mjolnir and fly faster than light speed, but only one of those can contribute to in combat feats. We say superman and flash are faster because they've done ridiculous things like attain 10 years of research in a matter of seconds or tune every radio on the planet, they are just more active with their speed for longer periods of time, and their higher end are so crazy but they outweigh the lower end.

Try finding higher end Thor speed feats then stack them up against lower end. He'll be fast but he still won't come close to superman and the flash.

And you can't compare wolverine and Wonder Woman, it doesn't matter how much skill he has, her speed and strength are the ones to put him down. Don't be confused with fights against batman/deathstroke

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RealityWarper

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#22  Edited By RealityWarper

@realitywarper: actually the thing about speed is that they are measured on levels and consistency.

Calling Thor slow is an dxaggeration, but calling him fast enough is as well. Thor has speed, but his speed is limited, he can react to mjolnir and fly faster than light speed, but only one of those can contribute to in combat feats. We say superman and flash are faster because they've done ridiculous things like attain 10 years of research in a matter of seconds or tune every radio on the planet, they are just more active with their speed for longer periods of time, and their higher end are so crazy but they outweigh the lower end.

Try finding higher end Thor speed feats then stack them up against lower end. He'll be fast but he still won't come close to superman and the flash.

And you can't compare wolverine and Wonder Woman, it doesn't matter how much skill he has, her speed and strength are the ones to put him down. Don't be confused with fights against batman/deathstroke

About comparing Wonder Woman and Wolverine my point is that they have a better attack rate (and other things related to their combat skills) than their counterparts on the same weight class.

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Chimeroid

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@cgoodness Nice read. I feel tho it lacks a certain ending to it. More of a definite conclusion.

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HeirToTheKingdom

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Cream_God

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#27  Edited By Cream_God

@cgoodness Nice read. I feel tho it lacks a certain ending to it. More of a definite conclusion.

Well i rarely do these sorta threads so im not sure how to write a proper conclusion :/

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Lvenger

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Before I give my opinion and analysis, for the record, it's pleasant to see some actual effort put into this, even if it is towards a misguided perspective on Thor's combat speed and reaction times.

Probably Thor highest reaction feat, Ego comes by Thor while Ego is flying in space at MFTL speeds (hyperspace) and Thor chases after him, very clear cut.

Yes I do believe it is very clear cut. A clear cut travel speed feat that is. How can this be related to Thor's combat speed when Thor isn't even travelling, reacting or operating at these supposed MFTL speeds, Mjolnir is. And Mjolnir does not act this way in combat speed when Thor uses it either.

So first we have Quicksilver rather easily dodging Thors lightning the Thor hitting him with a small AoE attack. What this is implies is that Thor can doe AoEs faster than lighting...however some things to note, Thor appears to be leaping during his lighting blast suggesting it was just a diversion to open QS up for a attack so thats a possibility, but nothing really concrete.

I fail to see how this is even remotely close to a faster than lightning feat in the slightest. Quicksilver clearly dodges Thor's lightning bolt casually commenting on how easily he can outrun lightning. Thor took advantage of this cockiness and slams the ground with an AOE ground pound to stop Quicksilver from avoiding him any longer. Quicksilver is much faster than Thor but he's not invulnerable to shockwaves nor can he run on ground that's been smashed. This isn't nearly as impressive as feats such as Hulk directly tagging Pietro with a backhand whilst Pietro is running to attack him.

Here we have Thor bullrushing DS Sentry, however it is to note Thor had just hit him with a Omnidirectional lighting blast so he was probably phased so nothing to suggest he could do this again without stunning Sentry again.

The very context you admit defeats the point of this scan, DS Sentry had just been hit by Thor's lightning and was vulnerable to an attack from Thor. And secondly this is Thor being pulled along by Mjolnir again, not Thor moving at said speeds himself.

Why is this a "high" showing you may ask? Well because Iron Mans blasts are light speed...

And you can see Thor deflecting one. If it was a block or dodge you could suggest Thor was reacting to Tonys aim, but Thor deflected it which is pure reacting to the blast itself.

Well then I guess by that logic Ian Zola, Captain America's adopted son from Dimension Z, has about 4-5 times FTL reaction times considering he dodged half a dozen repulser blasts from Iron Man. Plus, I believe Thor is knocking away a blitzing Iron Man in that scan, not reacting to the repulser beams. When Iron Man shoots repulsers at Thor, he just shrugs them off.

This scan shows Thor moving like a blur and speeding past Silver Surfer who has MFTL combat speed, this can suggest 2 things, 1 that Thor can bull rush so fast not even Silver Surfer can react to it or 2 he simply tricked Silver Surfer who thought they were just gonna kamikaze each other.

Unfortunately for the few nanosecond reaction time feats Surfer has, he's been caught off guard and unable to react to street levellers too. He's definitely faster and quicker to react than Thor to be sure but he has inconsistencies in his feats as well. As for this explanation, it's clearly the second explanation. Surfer thought Thor was flying towards him but Thor went for Galactus' head instead which caught Surfer by surprise. Not Thor's speed itself, which again was travel speed and performed by Mjolnir.

Here Thor is fast enough to land a punch in a couple of microseconds then catch Mjolnir. This suggest he can fight in microseconds. This is one scan I dont get why it causes so many on the defensive when Iron Fist is also stated to have Microsecond combat speed

Because it demonstrates how Thor's speed feats can be replicated by street levellers thus placing him squarely in that category of speed and reactions. Thor has moved almost faster than the eye can see whereas Wolverine has moved faster than the eye can see speeds. Thor has deflected a sniper bullet in an Inhumans comic (couldn't block them all though) whilst Daredevil has batted bullets out of the air with his batons. Plenty of Thor's speed feats have street levellers replicating them. Moreover, this is a classic scan which is outdated and inconsistent with Thor's more recent speed feats.

This scan shows Hyperion bullrushing Thor then being swatted away, however it is to note Hyperion was able to actually make contact with Thor before Thor swatted him away. This is honestly a better durability scan than a combat speed scan considering Hyperion barely hurt Thor at all.

I agree, it's exactly a durability feat. It doesn't count as a showing of reacting to an opponent if the opponent has already landed hits on you, just as Hyperion had already blitzed Thor before Thor landed his blow on him.

Here we have a Warrior Madness Thor beating up Silver Surfer and Adam Warlock and Warlock commenting that he moves like the lightning he commands. However this is a amped Thor so we dont know if Thors combat speed got increased or not.

Technically, it wasn't true Warrior's Madness according to Dr Strange, Silver Surfer and Odin. But Thor's showings in Blood and Thunder have not been replicated in his other earlier and subsequent comics. Not to mention that Adam Warlock is not a qualified judge on speed compared to someone like Jay Garrick admitting that Superman is his equal in speed. This feat is again not mirrored across the board.

Here we have a manipulated Wolverine vs a holding back Thor, in these scans Wolverine is dodging Thors strikes, but Thor grabs Wolverines leg and tosses him, Wolverine even comments on how Sabretooth (who he thought was Thor) had "traded speed for strength". Then Thor uses a AoE to knock down Wolverine. The statement where Thor thinks "he is faster than I-" is probably not Thor admitting Wolverine is faster than him considering the previous thought where it was clear Wolverine interrupted him when he thought "he dodges my fiercest blows with the ease of a-".

Just because Thor was holding back doesn't make his shoddy speed showings any less relevant. One leg toss doesn't make up for Wolverine landing 2 square claw strikes on Thor and if you take into account Logan's speed feats compared to Thor's, he would have landed more had the battle continued longer. Even if Thor was just thinking "he is faster than I thought" that does not excuse how badly Thor got shown up in the speed department to the point that Thor had to rely on AOE and lightning attacks to tag Wolverine. It's evident Wolverine was faster than Thor in that fight, raw power and weather manipulation saved Thor from being turned into Logan's scratching post.

Here we have Mongoose avoiding Thor and moving around him, however people ignore that Thor did a rapid span and tagged him plus was keeping pace. However this scan is from Tom Defalcos run which had a lot of inconsistencies such as Thor struggling to hold up a incomplete skyscraper (in the same issue with Mongoose in fact)

You seem to be ignoring that Thor explicitly said "My mystic mallet can attain velocities which are beyond your ability to grasp." It's Mjolnir which spun that fast, not Thor. So it's not ignorance of Thor's spinning which needs to be addressed, it's those who believe Thor was doing the spinning. Whenever Thor tried to tag Mongoose himself, he failed to come close to hitting him. What makes this showing worse is that Mongoose wasn't able to tag Spider-Man either and had to resort to using gas grenades to catch Spidey out. Furthermore, just because DeFalco's depiction of Thor's power level is inconsistent with other showings of Thor's physicals, it does not mean that DeFalco's treatment of Thor's speed is inaccurate. Especially when you compare Thor's history of speed showings. Thus, the Mongoose showings should wholly not be disregarded simply because other aspects of Thor's power level aren't the same as they are now.

Here we have Thunderstrike (not actual Thor) struggling with a exercise about "combat instincts" and reflexes" and Cap comments that Thor had problems as well. This is Thunderstrike who Thor is superior to in combat speed

This was Masterson with Thor's power, not as Thunderstrike. Masterson took on Gladiator, Ronan and even Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet in his tenure as Thor. Though one can argue Masterson's showings should be discarded, people are all too eager to point out how Masterson beat Gladiator when they want to show feats of Thor's power. Masterson was supposed to possess all of Thor's powers and that includes his low level speed too. Even with Thor as Eric's superior, that's not saying much considering how poor of a standard Masterson set for combat speed.

And another thing to note is that Thor had problems with it, which could mean he still does, trained and its no longer a problem, or he struggled for another reason.

Considering this instance has never been explored since, I doubt there's any point speculating over how Thor did on this particular training exercise. But I doubt Thor struggled because of another reason or that he's surpassed this exercise's difficulty.

Some of you may have seen me post this analogy, but i view Thor the same I view a baseball player, he cant move like what hes trying to hit, but he can react and hit it.

Forgive my usual scepticism but I doubt this analogy has the effect you claim it does. Considering that Thor has trouble hitting other baseball players whom he surpasses in raw strength and power yet cannot land consequent hits on them, that undermines your analogy about Thor's combat speed just to give you something I thought of whilst writing this.

but here is what people miss in the "high" & "low" showings....in Thors "high" showings you usually see him flying meanwhile in the low showings you see him "grounded", so what does that mean?

As I'm probably one of those people you refer to, I can assure you I'm missing nothing about the discrepancies between Thor's high and low showings of speed.

While flying Thors combat speed is greatly boosted due to Mjolnirs speed and momentum which allows him to bull rush at FTL speeds

I do not believe to be true, there is no concrete, consistent or empirical proof that Mjolnir boosts Thor's combat speed. It's Mjolnir that does all the work in your examples and others cited by the defenders of Thor's speed despite not realising what they post. Mjolnir allows him to travel at FTL speeds and those bullrushes are all performed by Mjolnir, not Thor himself. It's pulling him along for the ride and we don't see Thor blitz multiple targets, dodge incredibly fast attacks or perform reaction times in an actual combat scenario. Getting pulled along at FTL speeds is not something which can be applied to a combat scenario. For that to happen, we'd need feats of this happening, of which there are none.

however without it hes not very agile and cant go after anyone of significant speed as shown in the Wolverine scan.

As explained above, this is Thor's normal combat speed regardless of whether he's holding onto the hammer or not. It's just abundantly clear in those scans how fast Thor can move and react, whereas the window of interpretation for Thor's supposed combat speed can germinate like a bad weed.

That does not mean anyone with super speed can "blitz him" as he has the reflexes to react to things that are lightspeed+ as shown in the Ego and Iron Man scan

I'm afraid it does for me, considering that an Odin Force powered Thor still struggled to directly tag Captain America who was able to dance around several of his blows, that Ian Zola was able to dodge a thrown Mjolnir, manaeveur himself behind Thor and leave the "clumsy blowhard" behind him, where another god, a servant of Mikaboshi in Thor Blood Oath #5 was able to hit and stab Thor easily calling him as slow as clouds, where White Tiger was able to land 2 claw strikes on Thor during a Mighty Avengers tie in to Axis, and when Angela was able to also dodge Thor's throw from Mjolnir and outclass him terribly in their first fight by blitzing him into submission.

When people mention the "low showings" they forget that is a grounded Thor whos not flying while the people using the "high" showings forget thats a flying Thor.

The low showings are in reality the consistent showings and there is no proof Thor's combat and reaction speed gets any greater whilst using Mjolnir, nor is there proof Thor has utilised this tactic in character and on panel against the vastly faster opponents he's placed against on the battle forums.

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#29  Edited By Rpgesus

thor solos

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@lvenger said:
  1. Before I give my opinion and analysis, for the record, it's pleasant to see some actual effort put into this, even if it is towards a misguided perspective on Thor's combat speed and reaction times.
  2. Yes I do believe it is very clear cut. A clear cut travel speed feat that is. How can this be related to Thor's combat speed when Thor isn't even travelling, reacting or operating at these supposed MFTL speeds, Mjolnir is. And Mjolnir does not act this way in combat speed when Thor uses it either.
  3. I fail to see how this is even remotely close to a faster than lightning feat in the slightest. Quicksilver clearly dodges Thor's lightning bolt casually commenting on how easily he can outrun lightning. Thor took advantage of this cockiness and slams the ground with an AOE ground pound to stop Quicksilver from avoiding him any longer. Quicksilver is much faster than Thor but he's not invulnerable to shockwaves nor can he run on ground that's been smashed. This isn't nearly as impressive as feats such as Hulk directly tagging Pietro with a backhand whilst Pietro is running to attack him.
  4. The very context you admit defeats the point of this scan, DS Sentry had just been hit by Thor's lightning and was vulnerable to an attack from Thor. And secondly this is Thor being pulled along by Mjolnir again, not Thor moving at said speeds himself.
  5. Well then I guess by that logic Ian Zola, Captain America's adopted son from Dimension Z, has about 4-5 times FTL reaction times considering he dodged half a dozen repulser blasts from Iron Man. Plus, I believe Thor is knocking away a blitzing Iron Man in that scan, not reacting to the repulser beams. When Iron Man shoots repulsers at Thor, he just shrugs them off.
  6. Unfortunately for the few nanosecond reaction time feats Surfer has, he's been caught off guard and unable to react to street levellers too. He's definitely faster and quicker to react than Thor to be sure but he has inconsistencies in his feats as well. As for this explanation, it's clearly the second explanation. Surfer thought Thor was flying towards him but Thor went for Galactus' head instead which caught Surfer by surprise. Not Thor's speed itself, which again was travel speed and performed by Mjolnir.
  7. Because it demonstrates how Thor's speed feats can be replicated by street levellers thus placing him squarely in that category of speed and reactions. Thor has moved almost faster than the eye can see whereas Wolverine has moved faster than the eye can see speeds. Thor has deflected a sniper bullet in an Inhumans comic (couldn't block them all though) whilst Daredevil has batted bullets out of the air with his batons. Plenty of Thor's speed feats have street levellers replicating them. Moreover, this is a classic scan which is outdated and inconsistent with Thor's more recent speed feats.
  8. I agree, it's exactly a durability feat. It doesn't count as a showing of reacting to an opponent if the opponent has already landed hits on you, just as Hyperion had already blitzed Thor before Thor landed his blow on him.
  9. Technically, it wasn't true Warrior's Madness according to Dr Strange, Silver Surfer and Odin. But Thor's showings in Blood and Thunder have not been replicated in his other earlier and subsequent comics. Not to mention that Adam Warlock is not a qualified judge on speed compared to someone like Jay Garrick admitting that Superman is his equal in speed. This feat is again not mirrored across the board.
  10. Just because Thor was holding back doesn't make his shoddy speed showings any less relevant. One leg toss doesn't make up for Wolverine landing 2 square claw strikes on Thor and if you take into account Logan's speed feats compared to Thor's, he would have landed more had the battle continued longer. Even if Thor was just thinking "he is faster than I thought" that does not excuse how badly Thor got shown up in the speed department to the point that Thor had to rely on AOE and lightning attacks to tag Wolverine. It's evident Wolverine was faster than Thor in that fight, raw power and weather manipulation saved Thor from being turned into Logan's scratching post.
  11. You seem to be ignoring that Thor explicitly said "My mystic mallet can attain velocities which are beyond your ability to grasp." It's Mjolnir which spun that fast, not Thor. So it's not ignorance of Thor's spinning which needs to be addressed, it's those who believe Thor was doing the spinning. Whenever Thor tried to tag Mongoose himself, he failed to come close to hitting him. What makes this showing worse is that Mongoose wasn't able to tag Spider-Man either and had to resort to using gas grenades to catch Spidey out. Furthermore, just because DeFalco's depiction of Thor's power level is inconsistent with other showings of Thor's physicals, it does not mean that DeFalco's treatment of Thor's speed is inaccurate. Especially when you compare Thor's history of speed showings. Thus, the Mongoose showings should wholly not be disregarded simply because other aspects of Thor's power level aren't the same as they are now.
  12. This was Masterson with Thor's power, not as Thunderstrike. Masterson took on Gladiator, Ronan and even Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet in his tenure as Thor. Though one can argue Masterson's showings should be discarded, people are all too eager to point out how Masterson beat Gladiator when they want to show feats of Thor's power. Masterson was supposed to possess all of Thor's powers and that includes his low level speed too. Even with Thor as Eric's superior, that's not saying much considering how poor of a standard Masterson set for combat speed.
  13. Considering this instance has never been explored since, I doubt there's any point speculating over how Thor did on this particular training exercise. But I doubt Thor struggled because of another reason or that he's surpassed this exercise's difficulty.
  14. Forgive my usual scepticism but I doubt this analogy has the effect you claim it does. Considering that Thor has trouble hitting other baseball players whom he surpasses in raw strength and power yet cannot land consequent hits on them, that undermines your analogy about Thor's combat speed just to give you something I thought of whilst writing this.
  15. As I'm probably one of those people you refer to, I can assure you I'm missing nothing about the discrepancies between Thor's high and low showings of speed.
  16. I do not believe to be true, there is no concrete, consistent or empirical proof that Mjolnir boosts Thor's combat speed. It's Mjolnir that does all the work in your examples and others cited by the defenders of Thor's speed despite not realising what they post. Mjolnir allows him to travel at FTL speeds and those bullrushes are all performed by Mjolnir, not Thor himself. It's pulling him along for the ride and we don't see Thor blitz multiple targets, dodge incredibly fast attacks or perform reaction times in an actual combat scenario. Getting pulled along at FTL speeds is not something which can be applied to a combat scenario. For that to happen, we'd need feats of this happening, of which there are none.
  17. As explained above, this is Thor's normal combat speed regardless of whether he's holding onto the hammer or not. It's just abundantly clear in those scans how fast Thor can move and react, whereas the window of interpretation for Thor's supposed combat speed can germinate like a bad weed.
  18. I'm afraid it does for me, considering that an Odin Force powered Thor still struggled to directly tag Captain America who was able to dance around several of his blows, that Ian Zola was able to dodge a thrown Mjolnir, manaeveur himself behind Thor and leave the "clumsy blowhard" behind him, where another god, a servant of Mikaboshi in Thor Blood Oath #5 was able to hit and stab Thor easily calling him as slow as clouds, where White Tiger was able to land 2 claw strikes on Thor during a Mighty Avengers tie in to Axis, and when Angela was able to also dodge Thor's throw from Mjolnir and outclass him terribly in their first fight by blitzing him into submission.
  19. The low showings are in reality the consistent showings and there is no proof Thor's combat and reaction speed gets any greater whilst using Mjolnir, nor is there proof Thor has utilised this tactic in character and on panel against the vastly faster opponents he's placed against on the battle forums.
  1. Thanks, but lets not pass opinions off as fact.
  2. So reacting to something isnt reacting?
  3. Thats a perspective on it that i missed, the reason i posted some "showings" was to add perspective on them not to use them.
  4. ^
  5. Guess so, or he was aim dodging or blocking, reacting to aim isnt the same as reacting the the actual blast.
  6. I basically said that was a option, Surfer could have been surprised, and lets not get into a SS debate.
  7. Everyone with super speed has moved that fast, Spiderman, Superman, etc.
  8. Thanks.
  9. Thats just gonna lead to another SS debate, not going there.
  10. A holding back Thor and try harding Wolverine, yes that all happened.
  11. Thats nit picking what you like.
  12. Masteron was basically a brick.
  13. K.
  14. So the other baseball players are guys like Wolvy and the baseballs are light speed+ characters correct?
  15. The point of this blog was to share my opinion that those "high" & "low" showings were non existent, its a matter of Thor using Mjolnir/flight combod with his reflexes.
  16. Your opinion.
  17. K.
  18. "Odin Force powered Thor still struggled to directly tag Captain America who was able to dance around several of his blows"

-Are you referring to the scan of King Thor getting sucker punched?

" Ian Zola was able to dodge a thrown Mjolnir, manaeveur himself behind Thor and leave the "clumsy blowhard" behind him"

-He didnt do that to a flying Thor though, ive said a grounded Thor isnt a agile one.

"A servant of Mikaboshi in Thor Blood Oath #5 was able to hit and stab Thor easily calling him as slow as clouds"

- K so a guy thats empowered by a neigh omnipotent being owning Thor is bad......

"White Tiger was able to land 2 claw strikes on Thor during a Mighty Avengers tie in to Axis"

-havent read that so i cant comment.

"and when Angela was able to also dodge Thor's throw from Mjolnir and outclass him terribly in their first fight by blitzing him into submission"

- a tired Thor, and in Angela Asgardian Assassin a unworthy Thor beat the poop out of her (@asgaard has the scans)

19. You missed the point entirely, ive said Thor is rather slow when on the ground, but when hes flying he is very fast where he can mix Mjolnir with his reflexes. Hes BFRd a entire group of street levelers while flying so fast they didnt even know it happened till after it happened but he cant replicate that without flying because his speed is too low on the ground. (of course that's just my opinion, if you want to think other wise go ahead.)

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#32  Edited By Asgaard

@lvenger said:


- a tired Thor, and in Angela Asgardian Assassin a unworthy Thor beat the poop out of her (@asgaard has the scans)

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Lvenger

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@cgoodness:

  1. I could easily say the same for your piece. All I'm doing is analysing this with my own views and interpretations. Never said I'd be doing anything else. You left yourself open to such scrutiny when you posted this blog, I'm sure that thought didn't elude you.
  2. Did you miss the part where your scan was clearly a travel speed feat or did you miss that part of the panel? It's a travel speed feat, Thor caught up to Ego via Mjolnir's FTL travel speed. How can this be justified as a reaction feat when all it involves is Thor catching up to Ego via Mjolnir's speed? And how can this be applied to combat?
  3. It's not necessarily a perspective, more a fact of pointing out what happened in the page. It's not a showing of Thor reacting faster than lightning, that much I can say for certain.
  4. Same as above I suppose.
  5. Neither aim dodging or aim blocking was something Thor has done with Iron Man's repulsers or any other laser blasts consistently.
  6. Fine fine we can skip that one, I noticed you were aware of the other more plausible option in your OP.
  7. Except that Superman can react to the millisecond and even nanosecond in his Pre New 52 incarnation. He can move so fast that he can perceive events and moments happening in slow motion. He's also done stuff like move his body fast enough to escape a temporal field slowing him down, and this was whilst fighting someone. That's something no street leveller like Spider-Man nor the character of discussion, namely Thor, has done. Thor is not on Superman's speed level if we look at how fast they consistently move and react at.
  8. And a Thor who got scratched twice by Wolverine and who had to resort to AOE and lightning attacks to hit him. Same with his son Daken in Siege. See the pattern? Thor has to use his might powers rather than his speed to hit street levellers. Plus, Wolverine is faster than Thor in combat speed and reaction times when you compare what they've done.
  9. No it's not nit picking, it's evident Thor spun Mjolnir that fast to repel Mongoose. I'm not denying Mjolnir is too fast for Wolverine or Spider-Man to react to, but take away the hammer and weather manipulation powers and Thor might have come unstuck against Mongoose, let alone Wolverine. Considering what's said on panel, I'm not really nit picking.
  10. Who also used energy blasts against Gladiator and Ronan and used Mjolnir to track energy signatures and even dimensional techno babble too. He may have been a rookie compared to Thor but he learnt some stuff in his tenure as Thor.
  11. You're not understanding my point, your examples and justification don't excuse how Thor has problems reacting to his fellow baseball players in his own comics and fights so when faced against a 'baseball' from somewhere like the DC Universe, there is little reason to believe Thor would be able to tag these characters consistently enough himself. You have to rely on the 'cheat sheet' of Thor's methods for hitting speedsters and those have counters and context to them as well. I still don't believe Thor himself is not fast enough to react to other baseballs in your analogy.
  12. And I've pointed out how your distinction is unfounded and inapplicable to a combat scenario with Thor. You could have ignored this post if you wanted to but if you want to defend this view, don't expect me to suddenly buy it without you offering a legitimate argument in return. I've done more than my fair share of the Thor combat speed debate in my CV time and no argument, claim or evidence has been shown that I haven't found a way to counter. Yours is no exception thus far.
  13. My opinion supported by consistent, on panel and empirical proof but sure it's just an opinion to you.

-Are you referring to the scan of King Thor getting sucker punched?

No I'm referring to King Thor trying and failing to land 3 blows on Captain America before he dented Cap's shield. It doesn't say much for Thor's speed if he needs to try to hit a low level superhuman like Captain America.

-He didnt do that to a flying Thor though, ive said a grounded Thor isnt a agile one.

And I've noted how a flying Thor is unable to react any quicker than a grounded Thor based on Thor's appearances and fights. We don't see him engaging in DBZ or Superman style blitzes when he fights now do we? Thor is hardly any more agile when he's flying with Mjolnir.

- K so a guy thats empowered by a neigh omnipotent being owning Thor is bad......

Only Mikaboshi wasn't the Chaos King at this point, he was just part of another set of Earth's pantheon. Mikaboshi wasn't always the Chaos King, that only happened after Secret Invasion.

- a tired Thor, and in Angela Asgardian Assassin a unworthy Thor beat the poop out of her

This is another claim I don't buy in the slightest. Thor only got hit by one laser cannon and was otherwise undamaged whilst fighting against Heaven's Angels. It's entirely illogical to believe the assertion that Thor was tired in any way, shape or form. We're talking about the guy who fought against an army of trolls, goblins and monsters for 80 days and nights when he was much younger. Is it plausible to believe some laser cannons can suddenly sap Thor of his endurance? Because if so, you and others must believe Thor's endurance and stamina is very poor when the evidence shows otherwise. If you want Thor to have that level of stamina, you cannot believe this version of events in the Angela fight, it's a logical contradiction. Which do you want to believe?

You missed the point entirely, ive said Thor is rather slow when on the ground, but when hes flying he is very fast where he can mix Mjolnir with his reflexes. Hes BFRd a entire group of street levelers while flying so fast they didnt even know it happened till after it happened but he cant replicate that without flying because his speed is too low on the ground. (of course that's just my opinion, if you want to think other wise go ahead.)

No I haven't I'm afraid, it's you who's missed my point. Thor cannot mix it up with Mjolnir amping his reflexes, you have offered no substantial or credible proof for this assertion. That was kind of the point of my post in the first place. BFRing street levellers isn't a feat of reaction time either, portal creation with an enchanted hammer doesn't suddenly mean he's faster than low level superhumans now. Nor does it bypass all the times Thor has fallen fowl of being able to react to street level. Thor does not suddenly become a supersonic blitzer by virtue of being able to fly via Mjolnir, your opinion isn't supported strongly enough to bypass the travel speed feats employed in your defence.

Of course it is your prerogative to continue believing this opinion as it is with mine. But supporting this in battle threads of Thor vs Superman, Wonder Woman, Flash, Goku etc might not end with many people supporting you.

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@lvenger: So just skimming through your post your bringing up VS a lot, ima end this discussion as i know where this is leading and its not pretty.

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@asgaard:

  1. I'm noticing that Thor doesn't beat Angela in your scan of the Unworthy fight and that the rest show how much faster Angela is than Thor.
  2. Secondly, Angela wasn't using her speed when fighting Unworthy Thor, it happens a lot in comic book fights.
  3. And finally Angela has a bizarre weakness to lightning for some reason. Star Lord was able to KO her with a lightning blast from his element gun and I think we can agree his element gun is nowhere near as powerful as Mjolnir's lightning. This was why Thor won Round 2 since he pulled out lightning on her before Angela blitzed him.

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@lvenger: So just skimming through your post your bringing up VS a lot, ima end this discussion as i know where this is leading and its not pretty.

Well I don't believe I was close to flame war territory you warn against at the start but this is your blog, I'll respect your wishes. I've mentioned the element gun instance so I've said all that needs to be said on this topic.

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@lvenger said:

@asgaard:

  1. I'm noticing that Thor doesn't beat Angela in your scan of the Unworthy fight and that the rest show how much faster Angela is than Thor.
  2. Secondly, Angela wasn't using her speed when fighting Unworthy Thor, it happens a lot in comic book fights.
  3. And finally Angela has a bizarre weakness to lightning for some reason. Star Lord was able to KO her with a lightning blast from his element gun and I think we can agree his element gun is nowhere near as powerful as Mjolnir's lightning. This was why Thor won Round 2 since he pulled out lightning on her before Angela blitzed him.

You and others problem is think this characters were made for this site battle forum, i will not lost time with who ignores the narrative, (you are one of the few users that i never though would), yes Angela fight Unworthy Thor in Heven in her full power because her Goal was save her sister Laussa from Surtur essence, Thor was able to avoid her strikes and tag her and just not finish her because she gave her life to save their sister...

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#39  Edited By Lvenger

@asgaard: So where was the super speed blitzes? Where was Angela fighting with everything she had against Unworthy Thor? Where did she use her full power against Thor to save her sister? If she had fought at her full power, she would have blitzed Thor into submission like she did in her first fight. Writers don't always have powerful characters use their full powerset to win the day.The fight was not concluded because the plot and story needed to be advanced rather than answer the evidently less concerning question of whether Thor can beat Angela. Jason Aaron said in the GOT letter pages that he doesn't like a Thor who uses his full abilities because it makes his job of writing the story harder. So I'm afraid Thor didn't avoid Angela's strikes and tag her, I've seen the scans for their fights already and it's clear Angela wasn't using that level of speed against Thor.

Sorry you're disappointed in me considering what we agree on regarding Marvel's treatment of Thor currently. But regardless of me being a fellow Thor fan, I don't believe he has the level of combat speed some claim he does. And nor does it change how Angela outclasses Thor in speed massively and the only reason Thor wins is because he can use lightning which is somehow Angela's weakness. Which is supported by what happened in Angela's first Marvel appearance in Guardians of the Galaxy.

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Asgaard

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#40  Edited By Asgaard

@lvenger said:

@asgaard: So where was the super speed blitzes? Where was Angela fighting with everything she had against Unworthy Thor? Where did she use her full power against Thor to save her sister? If she had fought at her full power, she would have blitzed Thor into submission like she did in her first fight. Writers don't always have powerful characters use their full powerset to win the day.The fight was not concluded because the plot and story needed to be advanced rather than answer the evidently less concerning question of whether Thor can beat Angela. Jason Aaron said in the GOT letter pages that he doesn't like a Thor who uses his full abilities because it makes his job of writing the story harder. So I'm afraid Thor didn't avoid Angela's strikes and tag her, I've seen the scans for their fights already and it's clear Angela wasn't using that level of speed against Thor.

Sorry you're disappointed in me considering what we agree on regarding Marvel's treatment of Thor currently. But regardless of me being a fellow Thor fan, I don't believe he has the level of combat speed some claim he does. And nor does it change how Angela outclasses Thor in speed massively and the only reason Thor wins is because he can use lightning which is somehow Angela's weakness. Which is supported by what happened in Angela's first Marvel appearance in Guardians of the Galaxy.

I m not disappointed with your interpretations of feats, i m disappointed because apparently you give to much importance to what is almost irrelevant for me, i think you understand the core of the Asgardians characters (unfortunately a lot of other users don't), and that is what is important to tell stories with Thor and his supporting cast, right? Different Arcs tell different stories and different writers have different perspectives and interpretations of the character (the current is really bad), plus feats and comic book fights outcome always are heavily influenced by the popularity of the character, Thor popularity really grown in the last years compared with the other Marvel powerhouses so i understand this attention, but comicvine battles and feats discussion are just subjective and only in a different reality or parallel universe can be seen as an exact science, it's Impossible to set rules and principles that can/could govern the proof of facts in such a "abstract" theme that allows infinite interpretations, and even if you could surpass this barrier you will always end with weak support and inconsistent evidences for your claims, because the nature of the subject remains and it's allergic to default positions...

In the first fight in Heven (Original Sin) i m pretty sure Thor himself said he was tired, bad writing? Perhaps, but was the story that narrative told, in Gillen's narrative in Heven and interpretation of unworthy Thor and Angela, that was the outcome, and Thor didn't need lightning for anything (that also could hurt the baby sister), it's in panel, first Angela was able to steal Laussa from Thor's arms, and the last thing she would want was lose the child again, and perhaps you still don't know Angela personality but she only knows the nothing for nothing mentality, she had a plan from the beginning and never hold back until paid her debts to Asgard and Heven, risking her life twice but not necessarily for her sister but to pay the debts, and yet she still has a debt with Thor due to this events, if not she couldn't pay the other mentioned debts and save Laussa's life, and she hates to owe other people, what the panels and narrative demonstrated is that she made all the efforts she possibly could, but still wasn't able to defeat or escape Thor in the mentioned scenario...

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Asgaard

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@truth_teller:

Thanks for deleting the post... But the Déjà vu is still to much obvious...

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Finally someone who doesn't intentionally write a massive quantity of deluded stuff about Thor's speed! I do agree with him being able to react to and move his arms fast enough to deflect/block or whatever he's doing. However, I do not agree in that he can simultaneously move his arms or legs and attack in a rapid session like someone as, say Superman or Flash. I'm not saying that you said it, but I've noticed that people believe that.

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@asgaard said:

@truth_teller:

Thanks for deleting the post... But the Déjà vu is still to much obvious...

lol

Finally someone who doesn't intentionally write a massive quantity of deluded stuff about Thor's speed! I do agree with him being able to react to and move his arms fast enough to deflect/block or whatever he's doing. However, I do not agree in that he can simultaneously move his arms or legs and attack in a rapid session like someone as, say Superman or Flash. I'm not saying that you said it, but I've noticed that people believe that.

Agreed, he cant punch fast like Superman or Flash, doesnt mean he cant react to nothin

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@cgoodness: While I agree with your commentary overall I want to bring up an example of a high end showing from a grounded Thor you overlooked. While dealing with the Norse Goddess of death in hand to hand battle, Hela couldn't even touch Thor. He knew her touch meant death so he pulled out the stops.

It took place in #354 during Simonson's run.

Thor didn't use lightning or fly or anything. He simple evaded much as he did with Thunderstrike and belted Hela with Mjolnir until she retreated.

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@cgoodness: While I agree with your commentary overall I want to bring up an example of a high end showing from a grounded Thor you overlooked. While dealing with the Norse Goddess of death in hand to hand battle, Hela couldn't even touch Thor. He knew her touch meant death so he pulled out the stops.

It took place in #354 during Simonson's run.

Thor didn't use lightning or fly or anything. He simple evaded much as he did with Thunderstrike and belted Hela with Mjolnir until she retreated.

I think thats just evidence that he has super speed, but its not something that shows exactly how fast he is

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@cgoodness: Fair enough. I'm also probably a bit more impressed with it because as a tabletop player "touch attacks" are often much easier to land then normal attacks.

All in all your point is made. While not the fastest guy, Thor can contend with people who are often imagined to be too fast for him.

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@cgoodness: Fair enough. I'm also probably a bit more impressed with it because as a tabletop player "touch attacks" are often much easier to land then normal attacks.

All in all your point is made. While not the fastest guy, Thor can contend with people who are often imagined to be too fast for him.

yup

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HaveAtThee

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I have to say it's hilarious how scrutinized Thor's combat speed has become. There are probably 20 threads about it.

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I have to say it's hilarious how scrutinized Thor's combat speed has become. There are probably 20 threads about it.

Yup, and so many alts have made them and bumped them

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Is this a joke?