Umm...your narcissism is showing. I didn't call YOU out. I said I felt you and 4 (count 'em 4) others were being biased due to their obvious Thor fanboyism. Besides, I didn't "call any of you out," I was questioning your credibility. It's not like I said "come at me bro!" Or anything like that, I honestly didn't want to get into an argument.
don't go and post a stupid meme.
I feel as though a meme is only stupid if it doesn't make sense within the context of the conversation. Considering what you said, I thought it was appropriate ; )
So you think as I have Thor as my avatar I am bias, Yehhhhh..Go figure, Talk about judgmental.
What did I say!? I said don't pretend as if you are not a Thor fanboy. You and I both know that you are, just as I am most certainly a Batman and family fanboy, it's no secret. It wasn't just your avatar that made me assume you were being bias, it was also the fact that your argument consisted of three words. THREE! "Current Thor easily." You gave no reason or evidence, therefore you came off as bias.
@JakeN7: I can't be asked to argue for argument sake. bye.
Wow. What cowardly pettifogging. I obviously never asked for such a thing. In fact, I'm honestly confused as to what you even mean by that. Besides, didn't you say:
Don't accuse people, if you do expect to come out losing that debate with me.
Naa, Just I figured no point arguing with somebody like you who argues just for the sake of it and no logic.
Okay then "Mr. Nonchalant."
Like I said, I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing:
@JakeN7 said:
It's not like I said "come at me bro!" Or anything like that, I honestly didn't want to get into an argument.
See?
Besides, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one using any logic in this debate. But since you disagree, maybe you would like to point out what you're referring to. Y'know, what exactly did I say that came across as illogical?
Wow @Pyrogram said: don't go and post a stupid meme.
I'M KIDDING! I'm kidding!!! I'm sorry. You're right, this debate's run it's course. Sorry if I offended you. Didn't mean to. Have a good night man, seriously.
People thinking Wolverine could actually take Thor is testament to how badly he has been abused as of late.
@ThunderGodsWrath said:
Thor
@THORSON said:
he'd bitch slap logan so hard, his adamanitum would escape his skin.
@sommyt said:
@cmartin: this is what happens with poor writing :( any thor would pound wolvies skull in ..period@Pyrogram:
noo Thor is not slower than wolverine ...Thor said that he easily dodged his blows ...thats like saying i throw something at you and you dode it does that mean that you are faster than me ....NO
wolverine said that Sabertooth lost speed for strength is taken out off context ...
yes wolvie said this but that was because Thor was Brawling = powerfull jabs and strikes
while sabertooth is know to fight in a more animalistic manner ..... Thor easily saw hermes the god of speed and was able to easily keep up with him visually
@Pyrogram said:
Current Thor easily.
I find it really hard to accept all of your opinions when either your username, your avatar, or both makes you all out to look like biased, over-zealous, Thor fanboys. I feel like @god_spawn had some pretty good points that were pointed out objectively without prejudice. That having been said, I don't necessarily think any of you are wrong, just biased. I honestly am indifferent on this issue, as I'm not sure who would win. I feel like a bloodlusted, morals-off Wolverine would stomp a gimped (no thunder or Mjolnir) Thor, but I honestly don't know.
@Illuminatus said:
Thor punts Logan into one of Jupiter's moons without the slightest strain to his lower body. You Wolverine fanboys need to stop letting your bias cloud your judgment.
Funny...I basically said the same thing to Thor fanboys.
@JakeN7: yes we are obviously thor fans does that mean I think athor can beat everybody. .....NOOOO but he is not losing to Wolverine. Superman had more chances of losing to batman than Thor to Wolverine ...ANOTHER THING THE HAMMER IS NOT WHAT MAKES THOR AS POWERFUL AS HE IS ..THOR IS THE GOD OF THUNDER NOT MJOLNIR ..HE STILL HAS ACCESS TO ALL HIS POWERS .AND COULD LITERALY DO WHAT WWH DID AND KEEP pounding to his head ..people forget that when using MJOLNIR thor is the one that actually provides the firce as if he simple ly let go it would just fall and depending on ow high and inertia it would leave a crack on the pavement so the many times Thor have hit an object and it breaks thats his superhuman strength..
So believe that if thor bhit Wolverine with that much force in his head .with just his fist its over as Thor has proved capable of grinding uru to dust breaking MJOLNIR which is made out of uru the equivalent to adamantium..and easily breaking secondary adamantium EASILY ..so yes we are Thor fans but that doesn't mean we dont like other characters ..it just might mean he is our favorite in a bunch .... @Pyrogram@THORSON@cmartin
@cmartin: It isn't. You take fighting length as skill. In comcis it does not apply. If I swung a hammer for thousands of years and just overpowered enemies, that does not translate to skill. Thor and Cap have been around for a long time and none of Thor's skill showings suggest he is on Cap's level. I have already said Thor does have some skill, but he isn't a top tier in skill. You and every other hardcore Thor fan on here can complain about it as much as you want but it doesn't change that fact that Marvel has always seen the likes of Cap, Wolverine, Daredevil etc as better fighters because they actually have showings to back it up and even the Marvel Handbooks call them better fighters.
@god_spawn said:
Here you go, people. Thor's skill level according to Marvel. Thor is only a 4. Which makes him according to the handbook power grid an "experienced fighter".
Gallery
Wolverine's according to Marvel is a 7. According to Marvel that makes him a "master of all forms of combat."
Gallery
And unlike Thor, Wolverine actually has top tier skill feats. Thor is a good and skilled fighter, but I have never seen anything to suggest he is a master in anything.
The way Marvel handbooks work is that the stats don't reflect the characters absolutely, its more a measurement of generalities with certain measurable consistent lines in comics forming the basis for ratings. I agree with you, fighting length versus skill, one does not determine the other, but Marvel as far as the handbook has its own tough problem with actually identifying and figuring out how to reflect stats, especially skill and intelligence. Since being a master in more martial arts doesn't actually always mean more skill the same way more training and experience does either. Right now thats the main objective criteria for rankings, and/but its only really a fun thing and a guide even the Marvel Handbook writers don't really obsess over trying to create the perfect criteria for objectively measuring skill.
Anyway as I said before, fictional characters. They are going to be inconsistent because writer intent and depiction always trumps absence of evidence as evidence of absence (feats) since feats themselves are highly subjective. Characters don't always show what they got, and the basic reason Ares has a high skill ranking (last time I checked the highest possible ranking in skill) is because "he" happened to say the right combination of words to suggest his proficiency in several fighting styles ancient and modern. Despite that writing wise the plot doesn't really call for characterizing him as especially skilled, because generally speaking he doesn't need to prove himself, introduce himself to readers or have his skill be tantamount to character defining (where as say Iron Fist, Wolverine and Captain America, have incredible skill and fighting ability tied into their character and their plots along such other traits as having three claws, having a shield and patriotism) Where as Ares usually is the go to guy for being a god of war, really old and tough as Mae Young's skin etc.
Its also why you end up with this.
(its from a TPB released last year and I believe after the last update which came in an Avengers handbook update, which makes it the most current OHOTMU Thor stat breakdown, not only is "fighting skill" improved, so is his "durability", but his "speed" is lessened)
Personally I don't think Thor should ever been shown without powers fighting on the same level as Wolverine, Elektra or Daredevil because Marvel should be trying to give all its characters a little hook and that sort of depiction of Thor would water down a small reason why the aforementioned characters are special. If Wolverine was ever given god powers by Loki for example, to be on the same level as Thor, I could see him "losing" still, as far as the story, even though one could conclude that if Wolverines other attributes matched Thors he should beat Thor with "superior skill" but you know, the fact they are fictional always comes first, as well as not trying to attempt to dilutes characters in ways that may harm them creatively. Even in such a subjective discussion concluding that Thor should be depicted as superior in fighting it would be a bad creative move to have a depowered Thor running around kung fudestroying characters like Black Panther, Wolverine and Elektra. Then again no matter what any of us think is best, you'll have writers who'll just come along and have a different idea and have their writing reflect that.
Besides, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one using any logic in this debate. But since you disagree, maybe you would like to point out what you're referring to. Y'know, what exactly did I say that came across as illogical?
Eh I thought you made some logical points, but I think Pyrogram made some logical points too.
Its a point that I have made before in a Superman and Thor thread that just one time I would love to see a poster with a Superman avatar and username IHeartSupes argue sincerely with a guy with a Thor avatar and username ThorisBesteth that Thor beats Superman and the guy called ThorisBesteth argue Superman is superior and would win. So the idea that a person's avatar and user handle could mean they are potentially more biased is one I ascribe to in a non accusatory manner but there are many other factors to consider especially if one is trying to be logical. Giving no reason or evidence for an assertion for example is not logically cause for bias. The sky is consider blue by a lot of people, Galactus would probably beat Wolverine in a fight. Two assertions with no evidence or reasoning do I therefore come off as bias? Or would I only come off as bias in conjunction with that if I had a Galactus or blue sky avatar?
So just a little bit more information and reasoning (or lack of reasoning) is required to accurately identify someone as bias. For my own personal experience I have seen Pyrogram demonstrate plenty of unbiased rational reason and sentiment surrounding Thor. Thats just me though, so I think you brought up interesting and valid points, but not as far as certain posters capacity for fair reasoning.
Referring to past posts: Thor can travel at incredible speeds...but that doesn't mean his reflexes and perception work at the same level. Of course Wolverine has faster reflexes and reaction times than Thor.
Besides, I'm pretty sure I'm the only one using any logic in this debate. But since you disagree, maybe you would like to point out what you're referring to. Y'know, what exactly did I say that came across as illogical?
Eh I thought you made some logical points, but I think Pyrogram made some logical points too.
Its a point that I have made before in a Superman and Thor thread that just one time I would love to see a poster with a Superman avatar and username IHeartSupes argue sincerely with a guy with a Thor avatar and username ThorisBesteth that Thor beats Superman and the guy called ThorisBesteth argue Superman is superior and would win. So the idea that a person's avatar and user handle could mean they are potentially more biased is one I ascribe to in a non accusatory manner but there are many other factors to consider especially if one is trying to be logical. Giving no reason or evidence for an assertion for example is not logically cause for bias. The sky is consider blue by a lot of people, Galactus would probably beat Wolverine in a fight. Two assertions with no evidence or reasoning do I therefore come off as bias? Or would I only come off as bias in conjunction with that if I had a Galactus or blue sky avatar?
So just a little bit more information and reasoning (or lack of reasoning) is required to accurately identify someone as bias. For my own personal experience I have seen Pyrogram demonstrate plenty of unbiased rational reason and sentiment surrounding Thor. Thats just me though, so I think you brought up interesting and valid points, but not as far as certain posters capacity for fair reasoning.
I think the morale is, don't judge somebody based on an avatar..
@god_spawn: its simply bad writing all the characters here ur talking about is ..so funny u r trying to prove this point ...third reaction made the silver surfer question his own freaking speed r u kidding me .... and now u r basically saying captain America is faster than Thor .lol
I'm just repeating what is shown consistently. I'll just repost what I said in a debate before with the scans included.
Thor is supposed to have superspeed (he does in travel) but in combat and reflexes, the likes of Mongoose has blitzed him, whom Mongoose I believe can't tag Spider-Man. Thor is blitzed by Spider-Man (Masterson again, but Cap said their speed is relatively the same). Cap stating Thor is slow, both Masterson and regular Thor. And Thor admitting Wolverine is faster. End
Silver Surfer hardly uses his speed in fights either. Silver Surfer has been tagged by Rhino, Spider-Man, and the Thing. So it doesn't exactly do anything for Thor that he hit the Surfer or Surfer was surprised by his speed. Surfer when he actually utilizes his speed is faster in combat than Thor anyway.
@sommyt said:
@god_spawn: another thing it is not possible to fly fater 5000x the speed of light .or fly and save red hulk from a black hole...and at the same time have reaction time of wolvie.moongose.captain America. Spider-Man etc..ur mind. Must react at such speed so that u can perceive your environment
So you cherry pick one feat from Thor yet when I bring up quite a few consistent examples, I'm crazy? And considering Mjolnir does all the fast flying, not Thor, your point is irrelevant.
@cmartin: So do Ares and Hercules. Yet their thousands of years of battle experience are usually set on one style of fighting and overpowering their opponents, same thing as Thor. Thor has yet to show fighting feats on par with Captain America, Daredevil, or Wolverine. Just because he is fighting so long doesn't mean much if he hasn't shown much for it. Yeah, Thor has some fighting feats like with Mjolnir when depowered by beating some thugs, those zombie robot things IIRC, and beating Sif in a sword fight when they were younger. Captain America casually plows through rooms of soldiers with weapons. Daredevil held off 100 superhuman Yakuza members and a weakened Wolverine was prepping to face off against 52,000 opponents by himself. Even Donald Blake, the crippled alter ego of Thor managed to beat up some thugs by himself. Until Thor has something better than fodder feats, he isn't exactly established as a top contender.
And I didn't say Thor can't deal with Logan in h2h. Logan is more skilled, there is no getting around that, but Thor is too durable and strong and will eventually connect, just like he did in their fight. And yeah, Wolverine physically moves faster in combat than Thor on a regular basis.
Knowing so many fighting style does not make someone a better fighter.
@warlord1234: In comics 95% of the time it most certainly does. Too bad Thor has nothing to make him a top tier.
Debatable. But I partly agree. But highly debatable if we go down the pre-Mjolnir route. But I agree, Feats wise without speculation he is never going to be top tier H2H.
@warlord1234: In comics 95% of the time it most certainly does. Too bad Thor has nothing to make him a top tier.
Debatable. But I partly agree. But highly debatable if we go down the pre-Mjolnir route. But I agree, Feats wise without speculation he is never going to be top tier H2H.
@warlord1234: In comics 95% of the time it most certainly does. Too bad Thor has nothing to make him a top tier.
Debatable. But I partly agree. But highly debatable if we go down the pre-Mjolnir route. But I agree, Feats wise without speculation he is never going to be top tier H2H.
@warlord1234: In comics 95% of the time it most certainly does. Too bad Thor has nothing to make him a top tier.
You can know has much fighting style has you want it not going to make you into a top quality fighter. I have been doing marital arts since i was in the 6 grade so i know this. Martial arts movement have they own purpose they are use for specific attacks if someone is trying to rape you you would not try do some kung fu shit or think of a flying kick the best move that you could so is eye gouge your attacker or pinch they the side of the neck, if you in the clinch position one of the best move you could do is put your head underneath the jaw which course a muscle shock and make them loss balance using skills for no specific reason is like me trying to kill someone from a long distance range with 9mm instead of a sniper.
@warlord1234: In comics 95% of the time it most certainly does. Too bad Thor has nothing to make him a top tier.
Debatable. But I partly agree. But highly debatable if we go down the pre-Mjolnir route. But I agree, Feats wise without speculation he is never going to be top tier H2H.
Except all comics including supposed "feats" portrayed in comics involves speculation, assumption and subjectivity. Its the very base nature of comics. No comic character has anything to make them top tier except what people think and so you can either go with the majority opinion, your own opinion, or the best opinion, and its very rare that all those three things line up exactly the same.
@warlord1234: In comics 95% of the time it most certainly does. Too bad Thor has nothing to make him a top tier.
Debatable. But I partly agree. But highly debatable if we go down the pre-Mjolnir route. But I agree, Feats wise without speculation he is never going to be top tier H2H.
Except all comics including supposed "feats" portrayed in comics involves speculation, assumption and subjectivity. Its the very base nature of comics. No comic character has anything to make them top tier except what people think and so you can either go with the majority opinion, your own opinion, or the best opinion, and its very rare that all those three things line up exactly the same.
@cmartin: Yeah i dont get it. Thor has had millennia to learn how to fight with numerous weapons and hand to hand. He can take on the frost giants but not wolverine?
Thor (faster then the finest human athelete)< Spiderman (seen out running cars) < Wolverine (Spiderman believes at times Wolverine is faster)
Speed (Through the Air)
Wolverine (no abilities) = Thor (W/o mjolnir)< Spiderman (More maneuverability then Thor)
Durability & Healing
Spiderman< Wolverine=/<Thor
Fighting Capabilities
Spiderman (a great H2H w/ his own fighting styles made for his abilities)< Wolverine (a close 2nd. He has learned all of earths martial arts and is highly advanced in weapons, mechanics and a brilliant tactian)< Thor (Has learned all of Earth's martial arts styles as well as ones unique to Asgard. He is all considered a War God with brilliant strategy skills from fighting through out the nine realms and over his long existence)
Weaknesses
Spiderman (still basically human and susceptible to anything other than Blunt force) < Wolverine (Has extreme healing factor but is still susceptible to sensory overload, decapitation, and drowning< Thor (can be injured by beings as strong as or stronger then himself, as well as magic)
If you add these on a points system It would be: Spiderman - 10, Wolverine - 8, Thor - 14
If all Thor has to do is thunder clap (sensory overload) and put Wolverine in a choke hold so hard that his head pops off seems like a pretty simple fight for Thor. I am curious that since Thor's solo relaunched, can he be injured by Wolverines claws?
@JakeN7: Yes I may be a Thor fan, but I know when he loses. And this for one is not one. Think about it. We have aleady seen Thor stalemate Hulk for 2 hours, who was getting most stronger over the time, but still couldn't overcome Thor. We seen what a morals off Wolverine can do to Thor. He sliced Thor, but it didn't do to much damage. If Thor hits Wolverine once holding back or not with a flick of his finger the fight is done. Thor knows what Logan is capable of, and will try his best too keep away from the claws. I remember a time ( can't remember when ) where Thor seen a warrior who was bad, and the warrior tried to attack Thor. So you know what Thor did? He grabbed the Warrior, and threw him so fast, and hard that he flew into space, and the people beside Thor didn't even notice how fast Thor threw him. Yes Logan will be harder due to his speed, and claws, but nevertheless Thor will punch Logan instead of throwing him which will surely send him to a nearby planet.
@JakeN7: Yes I may be a Thor fan, but I know when he loses. And this for one is not one. Think about it. We have aleady seen Thor stalemate Hulk for 2 hours, who was getting most stronger over the time, but still couldn't overcome Thor. We seen what a morals off Wolverine can do to Thor. He sliced Thor, but it didn't do to much damage. If Thor hits Wolverine once holding back or not with a flick of his finger the fight is done. Thor knows what Logan is capable of, and will try his best too keep away from the claws. I remember a time ( can't remember when ) where Thor seen a warrior who was bad, and the warrior tried to attack Thor. So you know what Thor did? He grabbed the Warrior, and threw him so fast, and hard that he flew into space, and the people beside Thor didn't even notice how fast Thor threw him. Yes Logan will be harder due to his speed, and claws, but nevertheless Thor will punch Logan instead of throwing him which will surely send him to a nearby planet.
I appreciate and respect your opinion, but the situation you proposed reads less like evidence or fests, and more like fan-fic to me.
@JakeN7: Yes I may be a Thor fan, but I know when he loses. And this for one is not one. Think about it. We have aleady seen Thor stalemate Hulk for 2 hours, who was getting most stronger over the time, but still couldn't overcome Thor. We seen what a morals off Wolverine can do to Thor. He sliced Thor, but it didn't do to much damage. If Thor hits Wolverine once holding back or not with a flick of his finger the fight is done. Thor knows what Logan is capable of, and will try his best too keep away from the claws. I remember a time ( can't remember when ) where Thor seen a warrior who was bad, and the warrior tried to attack Thor. So you know what Thor did? He grabbed the Warrior, and threw him so fast, and hard that he flew into space, and the people beside Thor didn't even notice how fast Thor threw him. Yes Logan will be harder due to his speed, and claws, but nevertheless Thor will punch Logan instead of throwing him which will surely send him to a nearby planet.
I appreciate and respect your opinion, but the situation you proposed reads less like evidence or fests, and more like fan-fic to me.
@warlord1234: "If he hits Wolverine once, then he sends him crashing into another planet and the fight is done." That just reads a little like fan-fic to me seeing as how that scenario is completely hypothetical, and there isn't much evidence to suggest that would happen. It doesn't really matter because, like I said, that's how he feels. But at this point I almost feel like I'm arguing semantics over an issue that I don't really have a definitive opinion on.
Do people not have common sense? Thor can move hundreds of tons a flick of his finger would be enough to send wolverine flying miles. People don't understand basic physics or simply, a 1000+ tonner as he has been portrayed in some instances would just need to stamp on the ground hard enough and it would cause an earthquake.
A cyborg clone thor with a fake hammer beat the shit out of wolverine...I think the real one could pummel him without the hammer. Just do what hulk did and turn his brain to mush.
im not trying to diss the the DS but y wat made u choose wolverine vs a hammerless thor? i know thor gets weaker and weaker without his hammer but i dont know where it says he losses his unbreakable skin or starts bleeding gets virus ,etc even if thor is like so drunk trips himself and wolverine got on top and slashed him hundred times as long as thor kept his eyes closed nothing would happen to him .. dont get me wrong , wolverine has a chance a very very very small chance
@pastepotpete: No he does not. A simple flick would send wolverine flying miles into the air.
great now look at what u made me do ur making me defend my most unfavorite character and bash my favorite character .. but remember one thing the maruaders were beating up thor when the hammer fell out of his hand then the mutilated angel distracted them thor got his hammer back and crushed .. wolverine beat up 4 or 5 of the mauraders by his lone self without virtigo present
no i think thor would curb stomp even when his body was changed into aged 90 year old man and what i just mentioned with wolverine beating up five of marauders blockbuster arch light harpoon was never actually in the comic books it was in a actual book but thor was in some trouble when he fougth the marauders and they got his hammer
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