What did you dislike about PRe-52 Superman?

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SOG7dc

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To all the people who disliked Superman before his new52 incarnation, I'd like to know what, specifically (with examples if you can), you disliked about the character back then?

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  • Byrne Era
  • Jurgens Era
  • Post Jurgens late 90s era
  • A certain lack of good stories in early 00s even though the creative teams were wonderful
  • Post Johns era was a big mistake.

Now that I think about it....I didn't like many Pre-52 Superman stories as much as I like Superman's role in that Pre-52 Universe. The ones I liked are far and few compared to what I didn't...oh well.

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There were some good quality gems, but it was just too experimental.

I kind of agree with @squalleon on this. Most of my favorite Superman stories (Besides 'Panic in the Sky!' and 'Camelot Falls') are out of main continuity or Pre-Crisis, strangely enough.

All-Star Superman, Kingdome Come, For All Seasons, etc.

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@jogga said:

There were some good quality gems, but it was just too experimental.

I kind of agree with @squalleon on this. Most of my favorite Superman stories (Besides 'Panic in the Sky!' and 'Camelot Falls') are out of main continuity or Pre-Crisis, strangely enough.

All-Star Superman, Kingdome Come, For All Seasons, etc.

There are some great stuff in PRe-52 Supes. Just not enough considering he lasted 30 years.

And yes for the last 30 years the majority of the best Superman stories were out of continuity. Even Birthright as OoC at the beginning and entered continuity due to popularity :P

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@sog7dc said:

To all the people who disliked Superman before his new52 incarnation, I'd like to know what, specifically (with examples if you can), you disliked about the character back then?

I got to say one of the things I disliked the most was how stuck Superman was in the same routine. He'd react to the threats, joggle his time has Clark Kent and then went home to Lois. This was basically the routine, more or less.

Another thing that really bothered me, was how little to no effort Superman put to improve himself. He used his powers basically the same way over and over again. He never even tried to pushed pass his limits, or to explore what were his limits.

In a world where natural kryptonite wasn't even needed anymore, because there were already energy weapons that similated its radiation to perfection, Superman should've been seen exploring new ways to improve his chances in face of such disavantages. He could've created a new suit built from kryptonian sunstone but that functioned similar to a mother box, that had multiple functions like, kryptonite blocking shield, teleportation, even alternate modes where his suit would take on new battle forms in case he was facing kryptonite, or kryptonite engineered bio-weapons, red sunlight and even magic. Or he could create a sunstone equivalent to a Lantern central battery, but that would tap into stellar and cosmic radiation, and turn it into highly concentrated or alternate forms of yellow sunlight or even higher types of sunlight. All so he could gain new levels of power that would not only allow him to face the new challenges, improve the way he could use his regular powers but also add new one's.

Another problem was his relationship with Lois. They were stuck in an endless loop of nothing. Nothing new happened. Before they adopted Christopher Kent (Lor-Zod), Lois didn't even thought about having children of her own. And she wasn't getting any younger, and unlike Superman that might end up living for centuries, millenia or indefinitely, she only had at max 10 to 20 years ahead of her, until she started to feel the weight of age. Then they adopted the child and lost him to the phantom zone. At that point I pretty much expected Lois to step up and say to Clark "I want us to have children of our own. You're smart and you have other smart friends. I bet they can figure it out a way that allowed me to get pregnant from you, and also so the pregnancy would not endanger me or the child". But that never happened, they went back to their lives has time went by and run out on both of them.

Also Grounded was in many ways a huge waste of time, almost juvenile and well... A fairy tale. Superman had already gone through a emotional breakdown. After the events of Infinite Crisis, with so many losses and deaths, specifically that of Superboy (Conner Kent) the reason Superman powers took more than a year to return was because Superman had subconsciously blocked them out. He was tired, traumatized, and wanted nothing more than to stop and live a normal life. Superman was tired of Superman. So once he allowed his powers to return and having realized that he had gone through a rough period where he was emotionally tired. After the events of New Krypton and how it all ended, again he was traumatized, and let himself be pulled into an emotional downhill spiral, where once again we saw him questioning everything about himself. It was like he never learned from past events. After all he'd seen, experienced, and had to face, how come he was the one hero that was constantly questioning everything. Then he was forced (once again) to face the source of his problems and helped save an innocent woman caught in a struggle that was not her own. He had the help of the Supermen Squad (which was kind of ridiculous to say the least) got to see a part of his legacy, he threw away the suit, and decided to be just Clark Kent, he even called Kara and Kon and gave them that speech. Only so the very next minute Lois was in danger he put on the suit once again and finally faced all of his problems. Changed his mind once again and decided to be Superman again, and the very end, when he was handing out signal watches to all the people he saw could be a part of his new network of superheroes he could call upon to face problems when he was not available or needed help, it all seemed forced and unreal. Even when Lisa Jennings was speaking of Clark and Lois future, she was like this "Yes they will have challenges ahead. Sometime they'll be together and sometimes they'll be apart. But in the end they'll always find each other". When I read this my only thought was this "Couldn't have been more cliché even if they'd tried on purpose".

All these things and much more are the reason I don't miss the pre-N52. In fact I was happy those days were gone, until recent decisions of DC Comics that seem to want to bring the old back, and still call it new.

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-Nerdy Clark Kent.

-Super Intelligence

-To many speeches.

-Goes full city mouse once he gets to Metropolis.

-2stiff4me.

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His costume mostly. Other than that I like both Pre- and Post-Flashpoint Superman fairly equally.

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#8  Edited By Sovereign91001

I don't dislike Superman's post crisis era, but it definitely left me wanting in places.

  • The costume; count me as one of the ones who never liked the trunks. I remember back in the 90's when Batman lost the trunks after Knightfall and wondering why they hadn't changed Clark's costume post Death of Superman.
  • The various retcons on his origins. He was softbooted like four times, Pick one and stick with it; for all the flack DC gets for their handling of continuity post Flashpoint, the Post-Crisis era was a mess as well.
  • A lot of the late era stories; Grounded and Reign of Doomsday stick out in my mind as particular stinkers. Compared to Whaterver Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? Post Crisis Superman went out of continuity with a whimper not a bang.
  • Immortal Beloved; 'nuff said.
  • He was a little too preachy; As they say actions speak louder than words, I don't need Superman to give long winded speeches about heroism or whatever the topic du jour is. His actions should do the talking for him.
  • Chris Kent; he had the role Kon should have had imo.
  • The missing scientist elements from Pre-Crisis continuity.
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SOG7dc

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#9  Edited By SOG7dc

@heavenlydarkdragon said:
@sog7dc said:

To all the people who disliked Superman before his new52 incarnation, I'd like to know what, specifically (with examples if you can), you disliked about the character back then?

I got to say one of the things I disliked the most was how stuck Superman was in the same routine. He'd react to the threats, joggle his time has Clark Kent and then went home to Lois. This was basically the routine, more or less.

Another thing that really bothered me, was how little to no effort Superman put to improve himself. He used his powers basically the same way over and over again. He never even tried to pushed pass his limits, or to explore what were his limits.

In a world where natural kryptonite wasn't even needed anymore, because there were already energy weapons that similated its radiation to perfection, Superman should've been seen exploring new ways to improve his chances in face of such disavantages. He could've created a new suit built from kryptonian sunstone but that functioned similar to a mother box, that had multiple functions like, kryptonite blocking shield, teleportation, even alternate modes where his suit would take on new battle forms in case he was facing kryptonite, or kryptonite engineered bio-weapons, red sunlight and even magic. Or he could create a sunstone equivalent to a Lantern central battery, but that would tap into stellar and cosmic radiation, and turn it into highly concentrated or alternate forms of yellow sunlight or even higher types of sunlight. All so he could gain new levels of power that would not only allow him to face the new challenges, improve the way he could use his regular powers but also add new one's.

Another problem was his relationship with Lois. They were stuck in an endless loop of nothing. Nothing new happened. Before they adopted Christopher Kent (Lor-Zod), Lois didn't even thought about having children of her own. And she wasn't getting any younger, and unlike Superman that might end up living for centuries, millenia or indefinitely, she only had at max 10 to 20 years ahead of her, until she started to feel the weight of age. Then they adopted the child and lost him to the phantom zone. At that point I pretty much expected Lois to step up and say to Clark "I want us to have children of our own. You're smart and you have other smart friends. I bet they can figure it out a way that allowed me to get pregnant from you, and also so the pregnancy would not endanger me or the child". But that never happened, they went back to their lives has time went by and run out on both of them.

Also Grounded was in many ways a huge waste of time, almost juvenile and well... A fairy tale. Superman had already gone through a emotional breakdown. After the events of Infinite Crisis, with so many losses and deaths, specifically that of Superboy (Conner Kent) the reason Superman powers took more than a year to return was because Superman had subconsciously blocked them out. He was tired, traumatized, and wanted nothing more than to stop and live a normal life. Superman was tired of Superman. So once he allowed his powers to return and having realized that he had gone through a rough period where he was emotionally tired. After the events of New Krypton and how it all ended, again he was traumatized, and let himself be pulled into an emotional downhill spiral, where once again we saw him questioning everything about himself. It was like he never learned from past events. After all he'd seen, experienced, and had to face, how come he was the one hero that was constantly questioning everything. Then he was forced (once again) to face the source of his problems and helped save an innocent woman caught in a struggle that was not her own. He had the help of the Supermen Squad (which was kind of ridiculous to say the least) got to see a part of his legacy, he threw away the suit, and decided to be just Clark Kent, he even called Kara and Kon and gave them that speech. Only so the very next minute Lois was in danger he put on the suit once again and finally faced all of his problems. Changed his mind once again and decided to be Superman again, and the very end, when he was handing out signal watches to all the people he saw could be a part of his new network of superheroes he could call upon to face problems when he was not available or needed help, it all seemed forced and unreal. Even when Lisa Jennings was speaking of Clark and Lois future, she was like this "Yes they will have challenges ahead. Sometime they'll be together and sometimes they'll be apart. But in the end they'll always find each other". When I read this my only thought was this "Couldn't have been more cliché even if they'd tried on purpose".

All these things and much more are the reason I don't miss the pre-N52. In fact I was happy those days were gone, until recent decisions of DC Comics that seem to want to bring the old back, and still call it new.

Nice response. I may not totally agree, but I appreciate your point of view.

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#10  Edited By Gracetrack

@saintwildcard said:

-Nerdy Clark Kent.

-Super Intelligence

-To many speeches.

-Goes full city mouse once he gets to Metropolis.

-2stiff4me.

So pretty much everything I liked about him.

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Gracetrack

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#11  Edited By Gracetrack

@sovereign91001 said:

I don't dislike Superman's post crisis era, but it definitely left me wanting in places.

  • The costume; count me as one of the ones who never liked the trunks. I remember back in the 90's when Batman lost the trunks after Knightfall and wondering why they hadn't changed Clark's costume post Death of Superman.

Hmm, I don't remember Batman losing the trunks after Knightfall. Are you talking about Jean Paul Valley's Batman costume? Pretty sure Bruce still had the trunks when he came back.

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Sovereign91001

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@omnicrono: Nope, I meant Bruce. He redesigned his costume in Troika that was the arc that dealt with the fallout from Knightfall; it was solid black but didn't have the trunks.

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@sovereign91001: I was positive he still had the trunks in his regular Batman and Detective Comics runs. I'm not at home, so I can't verify.

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@sovereign91001: I was positive he still had the trunks in his regular Batman and Detective Comics runs. I'm not at home, so I can't verify.

No Caption Provided

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Gracetrack

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#16  Edited By Gracetrack

I'm still seeing the outline of trunks in the Robin cover, they just appear to be the same color as his tights.

Certainly looks as though he's not wearing any in the Detective cover.

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Sovereign91001

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I'm still seeing the outline of trunks in the Robin cover, they just appear to be the same color as his tights.

Certainly looks as though he's not wearing any in the Detective cover.

It's shading, google Troika Batman suit. Or better yet:

Since his creation, Batman had worn trunks outside of his pants, a style shared by many superheroes introduced in the 30s and 40s. This was partly because initial superhero costumes were inspired by circus outfits. But by the 1990s, many thought that the trunks were a quaint design trope that spoke too strongly of a bygone era and had no real place in modern day outfits.

Following his victory over Jean-Paul Valley, Bruce returned to his classic blue and gray look. He then took a two-week break from his vigilante activities in order to make emergency plans, safe houses and satellite Batcaves in case of any disasters in the future. During this time, Dick Grayson acted as Batman in the classic suit.

After returning to the role and letting Dick Grayson get back to his life as Nightwing, Bruce donned a new Batsuit for the story “Troika” in 1995. The blue was replaced by black and coal gray colors. The bodysuit was now all one piece, with no visible division between boots and gloves. Spikes were added to the boots in a style similar to the gloves. And the shorts were completely gone.

Link

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Gracetrack

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#18  Edited By Gracetrack

@sovereign91001: Yeah, I must have been thinking of Grayson while he was standing in for Batman for that short period after KnightsEnd. Still, I did not remember that. Thanks. :)

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Way too preachy, plus, his character came to an end the moment he married Lois.

His Clark Kent persona could've been retired at that point since Clark had no where to go as a character after that.

His Superman, like I said, was too preachy and his feats were making challenges hard to come by.

P52 Superman wasn't a character anymore.

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Way too preachy, plus, his character came to an end the moment he married Lois.

That's just an inane comment... Marriage doesn't stop character growth. Those are only things those twits at DC think

His Clark Kent persona could've been retired at that point since Clark had no where to go as a character after that.

This doesn't even make any sense at all. Why would he get rid of his Clark Kent persona when he is currently married and has a kid? It'd be illogical.

His Superman, like I said, was too preachy and his feats were making challenges hard to come by.

Oh please... Nu52 tanked black holes and Supernovae, went from Pluto to earth at a near instant, threw a moon sized Warworld to the phantom zone, and Bench pressed the mass of the friggin' planet for 5 days and he wasn't even tired. Even Pre-Crisis & All Star had frequent legit challenges. That statement is outright bulls**t.

P52 Superman wasn't a character anymore.

Why? Because he was married? Because he's a father? Because he's not young? Because he's a leader? Because he's just better than the mess that is Nu52 Superman? Please, I need to know.

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  • Byrne Era
  • Jurgens Era
  • Post Jurgens late 90s era
  • A certain lack of good stories in early 00s even though the creative teams were wonderful
  • Post Johns era was a big mistake.

Now that I think about it....I didn't like many Pre-52 Superman stories as much as I like Superman's role in that Pre-52 Universe. The ones I liked are far and few compared to what I didn't...oh well.

I agree with this and a lot of @heavenlydarkdragon's post too! I had no problem with Superman. In fact, I really liked the character. However, I had a problem with Superman's writers.You have to be able to move characters forward, but that doesn't have to mean wholesale changes to who and what those characters are.

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@jogga:

1.) Marriage doesn't mean an end to a character, but for two characters as big as Superman Lois, what can you do with them that's exciting? Give them a kid? That's really about it. Then what? Have Superman be a deadbeat to his son? Because what's the point of it?

2.) What's left for Clark to do? He's married, now that Clark has a child--what conflict does Clark Kent face?

3.) Only to get smacked around by Darkseid, Helspont, Martian...who couldn't PC-Superman beat? He beat Darkseid by himself.

4.) Characters need development, growth. Superman was already a father to a lot of younger heroes--adding a kid brings nothing new to the table. It's *for some* just fan service. Clark had no purpose anymore--he had everything he ever wanted. Unless you're going to kill that baby and make Superman cross a line, Clark had nowhere to go as a character. Yes, in fact, his age and leadership was also a problem, even though I wouldn't mind him leading again.

I'll ignore you calling N52 Superman a mess when P52 Superman was hardly a sales juggernaut.

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@jogga:

1.) Marriage doesn't mean an end to a character, but for two characters as big as Superman Lois, what can you do with them that's exciting? Give them a kid? That's really about it. Then what? Have Superman be a deadbeat to his son? Because what's the point of it?

Again, this is an inane comment. You are just incapable of seeing the big picture.

2.) What's left for Clark to do? He's married, now that Clark has a child--what conflict does Clark Kent face?

"What's so funny about truth justice, and the american way?" had Superman and Lois married and it didn't hinder the story. Villains aren't going to stop being challenges just because he's married. Same with his son. As I've said, you are incapable of seeing the big picture. To quote Grant Morrison "Superman has the same problems we do, but on a Paul Bunyan scale. If Superman walks the dog, he walks it around the asteroid belt because it can fly in space". Raising a child is a challenge and brings new things to the table (Having a pet, teaching him how to speak, how to walk, teaching him moral values, puberty, going to school, his son confronting bullying, his son discovering his first crush, his son having his heart broken for the first time, his son being in High School, Collage, His son picking up the mantle of Superman, etc) ALL of this in that Paul Bunyan scale Grant was talking about.

3.) Only to get smacked around by Darkseid, Helspont, Martian...who couldn't PC-Superman beat? He beat Darkseid by himself.

Uhh.. Pre-Crisis got beat by Mongul, Darkseid, Validus, any random guy who had magic, guys who had diffrent forms of Kryptonite. etc. Post-Crisis was similar too, although I don't exactly recall anyone on the top of my head right now. Even so. He doesn't need to be beaten to drive the point home that he isn't invincible, he just needs to be challenged.

4.) Characters need development, growth. Superman was already a father to a lot of younger heroes--adding a kid brings nothing new to the table. It's *for some* just fan service. Clark had no purpose anymore--he had everything he ever wanted. Unless you're going to kill that baby and make Superman cross a line, Clark had nowhere to go as a character. Yes, in fact, his age and leadership was also a problem, even though I wouldn't mind him leading again.

News Flash dude. A guy never stops growing after he's married or has a kid. Life doesn't just stop giving you problems. Marriage and Fatherhood are just ANOTHER step of life. With new and Different challenges each time. On the contrary, it just gets harder and harder. Killing the baby or making Superman cross the line is is the antithesis of a Superman story. And it is just lazy and unoriginal and disgusting. Also, he was never a father to the young heroes, he was a mentor. He's actually RAISING this kid. His age is never a problem for those who want a good stories, only for those who want a "Kewl" Superman with "alot of Babes" and a "hot Ride"(Basically a teenage fantasy).

I'll ignore you calling N52 Superman a mess when P52 Superman was hardly a sales juggernaut.

I was talking about the quality of the character, I could care less about sales. But if you wan't to talk about that, let's. The first Issue of Death of Superman got $15,000,000 on the FIRST DAY, good luck killing off Nu52 and getting THAT kind of sales.

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#25  Edited By Superguy1591

@jogga: Well then explain it to me--how does a married Superman and Lois lead to more interesting stories?

2.) WSFATJA barely featured Clark. Secondly, this is a comic, not a movie. Who the hell wants to see Superman deal with puberty? That sounds boring AF. Stop confusing relatable with interesting; all the things you posted makes Superman more relatable, not more appealing to readers.

3.) Not really: I can't name a guy PC Superman didn't beat.

4.) Explain to me how Superman becomes a better character IN AN INTERESTING MANNER married. Since you probably think the mundane is what I mean by interesting, here's how I guage interest: VIMS (Violence or action, Intrigue or suspenseful and keeps you on the edge of your seat, Murder or villains that bring a deadly threat to Superman and Sex or an arc that keeps you excited for it's sexual appeal--no one thinks marriage to the a staple character of 80 years is appealing.

5.) Yeah, but that was a gimmick. A nationally publicized gimmick.

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Way too preachy, plus, his character came to an end the moment he married Lois.

His Clark Kent persona could've been retired at that point since Clark had no where to go as a character after that.

His Superman, like I said, was too preachy and his feats were making challenges hard to come by.

P52 Superman wasn't a character anymore.

Yes. This too, was a clear sign PN52 Superman was finished.

Even in Grounded while unsure about himself and what he was gonna do with himself, he couldn't help but preach the hell out of other characters.

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@jbbuc said:
@squalleon said:
  • Byrne Era
  • Jurgens Era
  • Post Jurgens late 90s era
  • A certain lack of good stories in early 00s even though the creative teams were wonderful
  • Post Johns era was a big mistake.

Now that I think about it....I didn't like many Pre-52 Superman stories as much as I like Superman's role in that Pre-52 Universe. The ones I liked are far and few compared to what I didn't...oh well.

I agree with this and a lot of @heavenlydarkdragon's post too! I had no problem with Superman. In fact, I really liked the character. However, I had a problem with Superman's writers.You have to be able to move characters forward, but that doesn't have to mean wholesale changes to who and what those characters are.

Exactly! No one at the time was demanding a reboot, in fact sometimes reboots have a way of turning worst than the previous timelines.

I believe that what was happening the most was that the fans, were saying (me included) "Either move on to another stage in Superman life. And this includes Clark Kent and Lois. Or... Quit and start fresh." It was never a one option thing for DC.

And the option they chose, to me, reflected what some fans were saying at the time. That DC simply didn't know how to take Superman pass that point, and has such they decided for the easy way out.

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#29  Edited By Jogga