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#1 Posted by iamthenight89 (5 posts) - - Show Bio

I've been wonderful for a while now why Superman is considered the most powerful hero (not including villians/magicians/New Gods) in the DC universe while MM is basically Superman with telepathy and shape-shifting? Why is Manhunter not the leader of the JL/most famous DC hero?

#2 Posted by batmannflash (6226 posts) - - Show Bio

First of all, welcome to Comic Vine!

Second of all, you basically answered it yourself. Superman is the most famous DC hero and he's more recognized and has more feats. I do believe Superman is faster and stronger than MMH though. But like you said, MMH has extra abilities: telepathy, shape shifting, malleability, invisibility, intangibility. I personally think MMH would win in a fight, unless someone can prove me wrong.

The reason why MMH isn't the most famous or the leader is because Supes came in 1938 while MMH first appeared in 1955. Superman has the history and was something (sort of) new and awe inspiring to the public. "Leap tall buildings in a single bound!" It's only inevitable that your first creations become the most iconic (Superman and Batman).

#3 Edited by THEOCITYLEGEND (1288 posts) - - Show Bio

Martian Manhunter imo is indeed more powerful than Superman.

On another note, Martian Manhunters weakness is fire. Literally anyone with a match can conjure up his weakness. That's the reason I never considered him overpowered despite his ridicules amount of ability's.

#4 Posted by stephens2177 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is power incarnate,while MM has total control over his body,down to the smallest atom,and has telepathy to boot.i like how the nuMM morphs to fight the top tier guys on strength and punching fights.sure he has way more powers,but superman is probably physically superior in the normal brick way of thinking about it,but that's MM's draw,he isn't a normal brick at all.

This IMO could go either way,if Superman holds back or doesn't go all out,he loses,and if MM doesn't get the drop on superman,or doesn't play up his ability to not get hit,he loses.jonn can get into supermans head,while supermans heat vision is Jonn's one weakness.

It's really just up to the writer at the time.

#5 Posted by SanoHibiki (1679 posts) - - Show Bio

Most powerful doesnt equal most famous, you know. If it was the case, Batman should have been long forgotten.

About MM:

1. people say that Supes overpowered, that makes him boring hero. Imagine what they would say about MM?

2. his weakness much too common, nearly everyone can exploit it. In that case it would be difficult to create decent regular plotlines;

3. MM much too alien and detached from humanity, in comparison with, say, Superman. I seriosly doubdt that he would succes in commersial sense.

(Plus I believe that Supes have much more fans).

#6 Edited by ManofIron11 (60 posts) - - Show Bio

I think a fight could go either way. If MM got the drop he could just destroy Supes mind. If Superman needed to win then I think he could pull it off if he had too. If in the chaos Superman could use heat vision he could pull it off. Besides, didn't Orion put blocks in his mind against this kind of thing?

#7 Posted by stephens2177 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

I think superman has a much better chance then the battle board guys believe him to have.sure MM can morph his body in all kinds of ways,and make himself untouchable,but all supermans powers are raw,as in who the hell knows what his real limit is,he could rip,then freeze or burn Jonn,or just out speed his morphing,and Jonn's weakness is built into supes,and he can use it just by opening his eyes and almost to infinite levels.dont doubt supermans endless raw power,that's how he always wins.

#8 Posted by Bezza (3832 posts) - - Show Bio

MM is in my view ridiculously over-powered. If you read his various powers on the wiki page, it just goes on and on...does anyone really need to be so super strong and intangible and able to use telepathy and teleport. So, yes he probably could take superman, but the one problem I guess is the heat vision!

#9 Edited by Strongarm (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: strange, he has his own 'martian' vision which is practically heat vision

oh and

Mind Crush

#10 Edited by Alak (928 posts) - - Show Bio

@iamthenight89: To me, leadership isn't reliant on power. Superman is in charge for the reasons why Nightwing led the Titans, or why Captain America led the Avengers. They inspire hope, trust, and selflessness. Leaders are able to rally teammates from seemingly hopeless situations in order to win the day. Martian Manhunter is certainly sound minded and is one of the most logical members of the Justice League. Would he make a good leader? Sure, but compared to someone like Superman, there's really just no comparison. Superman is overwhelmingly friendly and he essentially gravitates people towards his presence. J'onn is an introvert who prefers to stay out of the spotlight if possible and I honestly can't recall the last time he gave a rousing speech.

As for popularity, I think that falls under two things: marketing and understanding. Blame DC for the marketing, there's nothing more to say on that matter. However, getting people to understand J'onn is the hard part because unlike most characters, he can't be simplified. People see a non-human character who has an powerset that's difficult to remember and has no single characteristic that stands out. Take the Hulk for example. He's also green and weird looking, but most people can easily describe him in a sentence: Hulk gets strong when he's angry, then he smashes the bad guys. Obviously, that's an oversimplification but it's still true and it holds up in most of his media representation. That, and it's fun to watch him smash. You can't really define the Martian Manhunter in the same way, so it makes it difficult to explain the character to a non-comic reader. If you have to spend several minutes explaining a non-marketed character to someone, the other person will simply forget your words within 24 hours (and not care).

TL;DR- MMH doesn't have the same leadership qualities as Supes, he's not marketed well, and mainstream audiences can't really understand who he is.

#11 Posted by drgnx (3566 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is much more iconic...

#12 Posted by stephens2177 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@strongarm: his Martian vision is TK,kinda like cyclops is,it's all based out of his head.his Martian vision,telepathy,and flight are all mental energy powers,the rest is him completely controlling his body in every way.they should play up that his strength isn't so much normal strength,but a combination of density control and shapeshifting.

I liked the cartoon Martian Manhunter then the comic version,his power set is so much better,kinda like the YJ shows miss Martians power set are better than the comic version also.

If superman is pushed far enough,and then pushes himself even farther,there is really no limit to his powers,atleast that's what it seems like in the New 52,not to mention they are constantly getting more powerful.

So a fight between a guy with a million powers,or a guy who really has no limits to the powers he does have would be fun and interesting,but MM can really only do so much.

Get into supermans head,he turns it off and rips u apart

Stay intangible,he just blasts everything around you with his heat vision,which is MMs weakness

Tries to stand toe to toe with superman(even with the shapeshifting) and your going to get superspeed superior strength coming down on you

Jonn is tough,but not invulnerable at all,superman can get knocked around,but you can't keep him down.

#13 Posted by Strongarm (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@stephens2177: its the same with hulk vs superman argument

hulk in this case is superman

shut them down before they get the plot relevant boost

#14 Edited by Lieutenant_Awkward (116 posts) - - Show Bio

I honestly think Martian Manhunter could take Superman. He has most of superman's powers and then some.

#15 Edited by Squalleon (4692 posts) - - Show Bio

Putting it simply.

MMH > Superman

MMh without telepathy < Superman

Also leadership has nothing to do with power.

#16 Posted by stephens2177 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@strongarm: exactly,that's how you beat superman(unless your doomsday),and we see this a lot.some villian will knock supes on his ass,make him look like a punk,but then later superman always takes it up a notch,or just figures out how to beat them.

The thing ppl don't remember about superman is that he doesn't play with the same rules as other super beings,lots of them have a ability to take it to the 11th level,but superman can go to a infinite level,that's why he is the most powerful,even when others power levels seem more powerful than supermans base power level,superman can go way above his base level of power,that's his most powerful superpower.

@lieutenant_awkward: he does have most of supermans powers,BUT he has limits,superman does not,he has a endless resvoir of energy to draw from,Jonn is limited to what his natural Martian body can produce.

@lieutenant_awkward: @squalleon: telepathy against a guy who's brain is like 7th level to our 3rd? A guy who is used to fighting telepaths and for years? Orion put mental blocks in supermans head,so now he is insulated from them.

#17 Edited by Squalleon (4692 posts) - - Show Bio

@stephens2177: pre 52 mm beat the sh$% out of supes

Also Supes 8th level int

base Human 2nd level int

and lex luthor 9th

#18 Edited by Justthatkid (4640 posts) - - Show Bio

I pretty sure superman can't be targeted with mental attacks I also don't think Martian manhunter is stronger and faster. But that's thought.

#19 Posted by Squalleon (4692 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is Physically superior to MM

But MM has telepathy which gives him the edge
And in most MM vs Supes MM beat the hell out of supes because he fried his brain

#20 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4871 posts) - - Show Bio

J'onn turns into Kryptonite

BOOM over

( + )

#21 Posted by ManofIron11 (60 posts) - - Show Bio

Orion put mental blocks in his head when Hammond attacked. So really, Supes should win.

#22 Edited by warlock360 (28064 posts) - - Show Bio

MM outpowers Supes. Here's MM giving Ultraman (who's basically a unrestricted Superman from the third world) a beatdown. Superman is simply more featured and people can relate to him more, is all. I like MM more.

#23 Posted by Jayc1324 (13143 posts) - - Show Bio

@stephens2177: in the new 52 fire is more of a mental thing than a physical weakness for mm. It doesn't affect him physically anymore sadly. Also mm can go invisible and I don't know if Clark would be able to see him still.

#24 Posted by Squalleon (4692 posts) - - Show Bio

J'onn turns into Kryptonite

BOOM over

( + )

.....I hope you are trolling. 0_o
Because MM can't change elements only his form.

#25 Edited by SanoHibiki (1679 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlock360:

That was pre-52 universe. Now rules (and abilities) may have changed somewhat.

In Action Comics Supes were able clean his mind to be unaffected by that telephatic-mutant-human "Original Superman", plus Orion recently put some mental block in Superman's head.

I wonder this is some set up to fight or its totally unrelated, since it looks like we will see them fighting each other ( Justice League 22).

#26 Posted by warlock360 (28064 posts) - - Show Bio

@sanohibiki: I am aware of the Pre-New 52 stuff. Also MM beat him Ultraman by sheer force (rearanging his molecules, which he obviously still ha as you can see from his hand in the Pic you posted from the Trinity war) so Orion's mindblock shouldn't be the factor. It's just one of 10 cases less likely he could beat him.

I am also intruiged to see how they'll beef it out. We can only ponder until its on ink i suppose : )

#27 Posted by Squalleon (4692 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlock360: That Scan is from Earth 2
MM rearanged his molecules by reading UM's thoughts.So he used telepathy

Also.If you read it you would know that you can't win in one world without losing in the other.So that counts too.

It's no secret that MM is more powerful that superman with his telepathy.But supes has beaten Martians before in combat without telepathy

#28 Posted by warlock360 (28064 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: True with the other martians. Also that with the counter concequences goes for all chars if your gonna go that way lol. If MM loses in one he wins in the other as well. I think that idea is a bit farfetched for the simple "1v1" purpose here at hand.

#29 Posted by Squalleon (4692 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlock360: It's a broader concept of balance so if the bad guys won in the other world then its only logical to lose on this one.

Anyway MM used telepathy which makes him superior to any member of the JL.Also in New 52 he has his fire weakness so Superman can exploit that if his heat vision is faster than J'onn's mind

#30 Posted by Squalleon (4692 posts) - - Show Bio

@warlock360: Also Ultraman was weaker because he was away from his power source.

I just read the book to make sure.Ultraman had a complete disadvantage in this fight.

Not that it would change anything.But Grant Morrison had MM as a pretty balanced character.
Joe Kelly made him a League buster

#31 Posted by Strongarm (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@stephens2177: you gotta kill the sunnuvabitch when he plays 'mr.nice guy'

#32 Edited by PowerWoman (3573 posts) - - Show Bio

Ultraman is weaker?!did you know how can superman beat him?!not raw strength,just because superman has more skills,superman never say he was stronger than ultraman

Also,MM is weaker than superman?ok,even he was weaker than superman,i dont see how superman MUCH stronger than him,Even superman is stronger,just a little bit

Online
#33 Edited by PowerWoman (3573 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is stronger than MM,but gaps are not as large

Online
#34 Posted by Bronze_Surfer (2984 posts) - - Show Bio

@powerwoman: Thats debateabele on strength. But MM has Phazing and his own heat beams so their even their.

#35 Posted by PowerWoman (3573 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: I know,But Normal fire cant hurt New 52 MM anymore

Like wonder woman is stronger than pre-crisis,martian manhunter is more powerful,more stronger than Pre-crisis,DC have been trying to balance power level,superman,wonder woman,MM etc,because in the pre-crisis,superman just toooooooo much powerful,superman and supergirl once beat JLA with easily......Serious mismatch

Online
#36 Posted by HushoftheWind (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

he also apparently have psionic powers like in the injustice trailer, which im still waiting to see scans for btw.

#37 Edited by PowerWoman (3573 posts) - - Show Bio

@hushofthewind: Yes,MM just like SS have many of powers, versatile of ability

Online
#38 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4871 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: My mistake. I thought he turned into concrete/steel once.

( + )

#39 Posted by Squalleon (4692 posts) - - Show Bio

@bronze_surfer: Martian vision isn't heat.It's force...at least i think so.

Also MM has been shown to be beaten by adversaries that aren't affected by telepathy.
Asmondel Beat the hell out of MM while Superman stalemate him.
Superman is considered and the feats shown to be physically superior to any other hero.But MM is the most powerful telepath of earth so that gives him an incredible advantage

#40 Posted by w0nd (3883 posts) - - Show Bio
That punch to the nose was from someone far weaker than superman. I'm not saying superman would know this weak link right off the bat but if h accidentally does it hes dead

#41 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd: This sin't valid anymore,since the Stormwatch was rebooted. Sorry and nice try

#42 Edited by w0nd (3883 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd: This sin't valid anymore,since the Stormwatch was rebooted. Sorry and nice try

@w0nd said:
That punch to the nose was from someone far weaker than superman. I'm not saying superman would know this weak link right off the bat but if h accidentally does it hes dead

it's rebooted already? oh okay my mistake. Has there been any crazy M.M. hunter feats since then?

#43 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd: After Martian Manhunter leaves the team the sales goes down,making DC hired Jim Starling to write it,in his first stories he already caused a temporal anomaly happened and erased some of the previous members, of the history and introducing others.

take a look,but forget the stormwatch scans I have to erase it yet.... http://www.comicvine.com/martian-manhunter/4005-2047/forums/new-52-martian-manhunter-respect-thread-670357/#106

#44 Posted by Squalleon (4692 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd said:

@matchesmalone21 said:

@w0nd: This sin't valid anymore,since the Stormwatch was rebooted. Sorry and nice try

@w0nd said:
That punch to the nose was from someone far weaker than superman. I'm not saying superman would know this weak link right off the bat but if h accidentally does it hes dead

it's rebooted already? oh okay my mistake. Has there been any crazy M.M. hunter feats since then?

Stormwatch was rebooted not MMH.
MMH left stormwatch before the reboot

#45 Posted by matchesmalone21 (9142 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: I think doesn't understand....since Stormwatch reboot everything was rewritten,Martian Manhunter never was a member of the team,then this feat isn't valid anymore.

#46 Edited by Avenging-X-Bolt (13599 posts) - - Show Bio

Martian Manhunter is indeed more powerful then Superman (although not necessarily stronger) but power isnt what makes Superman Dc's most famous hero. but Martian Manhunter has served as the League's leader a couple of times and was considered the soul of the team before Flashpoint.

#47 Posted by stephens2177 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: ok this is just silly ppl,Superman is more powerful,BUT MM has powers that can beat Superman,easy as that.

Why is it every time I think of MM and Supes just during it out,with none of their extra powers,I always see in my head the T-800 fighting the T-1000?

#48 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13599 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: ok this is just silly ppl,Superman is more powerful,BUT MM has powers that can beat Superman,easy as that.

Why is it every time I think of MM and Supes just during it out,with none of their extra powers,I always see in my head the T-800 fighting the T-1000?

Superman isnt more powerful. he's physically stronger.

#49 Posted by Z3RO180 (6669 posts) - - Show Bio
#50 Posted by stephens2177 (1076 posts) - - Show Bio

@avenging_x_bolt: yes he is,he has a higher power output level,which means he is more powerful.jonn is in his weight class,and has the versatility thing better than anyone else.