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#1 Posted by JamDamage (1110 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm going to assume that most people that have clicked on this topic I've made have seen Man Of Steel, but there are other spoilers ahead as well. I Can't even say what I'm spoiling without spoiling what happened in a comic book Wed July 10th, July 11th A.M.. If you read the title I'm talking about then you know what I'm writing about, if not....................click off, because you might get pissed and call me an asshole. Otherwise you know what I'm talking about. If you love comics like I do, then you go on other sites then Comicvine. IGN, Bleeding Cool, Newsarama, are just a few. We've all read the reviews on Man Of Steel when the movie came out. Some sites gave reviews with and without spoilers. Before or after seeing the film we found out that Superman killed. He killed Zod. Some people freaked, some said "I get why Superman killed", some said, Superman killed Zod in Superman 2 and no one freaked. Now we all know Nolan was a producer on MOS, and we all know that he stuck with Batman's rule of "no killing" in his Batman trilogy, and actually made it one of the things that made him a hero in his movies. I don't have to refference the Joker in jail scene of DK for you to know what I'm talking about. Well, in comics Superman doesn't kill either, but he has. It was a while ago, and stories changed it to the death of a "pocket dimension Zod"??? Like that makes is okay? What ever. We read the article where Snyder changed Nolans mind on Superman killing, and Nolan saying okay, because he saw why Snyder wanted it and blah, blah, blah. I'm actually one of the converted by Snyder. I saw what he did, and why Superman had to kill Zod. Sure he could have just sent Zod back to the Phantom Zone, but I get his point, and I also loved the movie. Not the point. A day or so ago on IGN, and then on here we saw an a kdvertisement from Geoff Johns about Trinity War. We know someone gets killed by a hero, and that it's orchestrated by something evil that leads into Villains Month. No one thought it would be Superman killing again. Johns also said a hero dies. Doctor Lite is not a hero. We all know this. Now we see how DR Lite, when he comes back, will be a baddy, but my point is this. It blew me away to see Superman do the killing. It made the 1st issue of Trinity War that much better. When I saw Superman kill in MOS, I thought.......Well.....Batman can't kill or it makes him just as bad as the villains he fights, because we know he's just as crazy as they are (courtesy of Killing Joke and Arkham Asylum) but Superman can actually kill. Seeing him do it now in Trinity War, I don't know anymore. what do you people think??

#2 Posted by Stormbox (2001 posts) - - Show Bio

They kept saying superman was framed so i dont think this counts as superman killing someone

#3 Edited by sage1000 (67 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, it was pretty obvious that he was mind controlled or something similar so it does not count

#4 Posted by UltimateSMfan (1377 posts) - - Show Bio

it was very clear and mentioned like thrice in the issue that it wasn't exactly him.

#5 Edited by DRUDOX19 (157 posts) - - Show Bio

I have no issue with Superman killing he has killed Brainaic a thousand times already and he has pure intent to Kill Darkseid every time he fights. My issue is that after MOS people will complain about damage if Superman fights Darkseid and Mongul my fear is that those villains will be avoided compelty in this series hell maybe Brainaic will be avoided one of Superman's issues is that we never get to see his alien villains. Superman killing i have no issue, but in Batman Begins Batman let Ra's die. Superman's no killing rule has no back-story matter a fact Batman no killing rule makes sense because of his parents, Superman makes no since WHAT SO EVER!!!! I get why Zack and Nolan did it it similar to Batman Begins when no one really explored batman's origin, MOS no one explored any and i mean any reason to why Superman does not kill,

Some fans try to tell me its because of his morals, then i am like but really how the hell do we know Superman didn't kill because in the past in Smallville he killed a animal by mistake. We don't know AT ALL! Supermans no kill policy is extremely random, Dave Gibbons and Alan Moore and the artist that did Batman Year One were able to do there epic origin tale before it was scrapped to do Watchmen in there Superman Year One pitch Superman's no killing policy happened because he accidenlty kill a cat and when he travelled the world he went to east asia and learned the philosophies of Janism and Taoism and Buddhism both philosophies that harp on the idea of the protection of all lifeforms and applyed them has Superman ,would have been a great origin for Superman too bad it was scrapped and Alan Moore and Dave did Watchmen, we would have had a very very different superman for the modern era matter a fact i would have had Byrne superman be the origin or Krypton and Alan Moore and Daves Superman Year One be about him growing up on earth and start his months becoming superman. I like Alan Moores idea of why Superman does not kill better then writers saying because of his morals has a cop out.

Too bad we didn't get this story and they wrote Watchmen instead, it was going to be a very politically heavy book to and it would go back to the roots of Superman being a social crusader. What interest me about there idea was Gotham was a city with police corruption and crime and the mob, Metropolis being the city of hope Alan Moore thought why the heck does the city need superman, there brillaint idea was Metroplis corruption was filled with Corpratism, walking gordan gekkos of wall street and the Miltitary industrial complex. In there idea Lex Luthor , General Sam Lane and Morgan Edge where superman's main villains when clark arrived to metropolis before he created the Clark Kent with the glasses persona.

#6 Posted by sage1000 (67 posts) - - Show Bio

@drudox19: uhm........ He was referring to what happened in JL #22 not Man of Steel and your arguments are even wrong but to avoid turning this thread into another debate over that scene in MoS I wont argue back.

#7 Posted by DRUDOX19 (157 posts) - - Show Bio

OH really i apologize

#8 Posted by ManofIron11 (60 posts) - - Show Bio

It's funny, people complain that Supermans too goody goody and is just a boy scout but he goes bad ass on people they complain.

#9 Posted by DRUDOX19 (157 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman no kill policy is out of no where though Batmans explanation makes sense because of his parents murder and how he thinks the criminals he faces has families. Superman its basically random in my opinion, i think Moore and Gibbon year one pitch for superman not killing and killing a animal by mistake ( showing him grieve over a animals death showing superman's value of life in general felt more powerful for me) and him travelling to east asia and admiring Jainism and Taoism and Buddhism and there ideas of defending all life forms makes sense. When Bryne wrote that i think it was kinda BS

#10 Posted by AweSam (7373 posts) - - Show Bio

@manofiron11: Look at what Batman does and he never kills. The point is that Superman has godly powers, yet he still chooses never to use them to kill. He's not supposed to be human, he's supposed to be better. Killing isn't "bad-ass". They pretty much took everything Superman stands for and flushed it down the toilet. I'm sure It'll turn out Superman didn't kill him.

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#11 Posted by Lvenger (18485 posts) - - Show Bio

Unlike with Man of Steel, it was clear in the first issue of Trinity War that Superman wasn't responsible for killing Doctor Light. But that's not my problem with it. The problem I have is that it's an unorignal derivative idea. Of all the heroes that could have started the war, Superman should never be amongst the candidates.

#12 Posted by ccraft (5078 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read JL 22 but I saw the panels on google and I feel thats a stupid way of making Supes kill. Unless I'm missing something

#13 Posted by TDK_1997 (14474 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Unlike with Man of Steel, it was clear in the first issue of Trinity War that Superman wasn't responsible for killing Doctor Light. But that's not my problem with it. The problem I have is that it's an unorignal derivative idea. Of all the heroes that could have started the war, Superman should never be amongst the candidates.

Maybe Johns wanted to make things look like Wonder Woman influenced him in some kind of way because earlier she said that when she needs to kill someone she kills him.But right after that Superman refused to believe to that idea and it would make no sense but Johns is behind it,so it is possible.

#14 Posted by Lvenger (18485 posts) - - Show Bio

@tdk_1997 said:

@lvenger said:

Unlike with Man of Steel, it was clear in the first issue of Trinity War that Superman wasn't responsible for killing Doctor Light. But that's not my problem with it. The problem I have is that it's an unorignal derivative idea. Of all the heroes that could have started the war, Superman should never be amongst the candidates.

Maybe Johns wanted to make things look like Wonder Woman influenced him in some kind of way because earlier she said that when she needs to kill someone she kills him.But right after that Superman refused to believe to that idea and it would make no sense but Johns is behind it,so it is possible.

I think Johns wanted to make it look like Superman had killed Doctor Light for attacking his girlfriend, thus scaring people even more about the Superman/Wonder Woman romance. And sparking the Trinity War. It was poorly executed however and didn't play out well at all.

#15 Posted by TDK_1997 (14474 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@tdk_1997 said:

@lvenger said:

Unlike with Man of Steel, it was clear in the first issue of Trinity War that Superman wasn't responsible for killing Doctor Light. But that's not my problem with it. The problem I have is that it's an unorignal derivative idea. Of all the heroes that could have started the war, Superman should never be amongst the candidates.

Maybe Johns wanted to make things look like Wonder Woman influenced him in some kind of way because earlier she said that when she needs to kill someone she kills him.But right after that Superman refused to believe to that idea and it would make no sense but Johns is behind it,so it is possible.

I think Johns wanted to make it look like Superman had killed Doctor Light for attacking his girlfriend, thus scaring people even more about the Superman/Wonder Woman romance. And sparking the Trinity War. It was poorly executed however and didn't play out well at all.

Don't worry,everything will end up perfectly becuase this is Johns.He can make everything perfect and with Pandora,the Phantom Stranger and the QUestion involved there will be something undone or just something getting rebooted or redone.

#16 Edited by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

OKay this has become stupid, there are now over a hundred threads bitching about this exact same thing, you want to keep bitching about it until the end of time fine but can we stop making new threads for the same s**t.

#17 Posted by TheAcidSkull (17376 posts) - - Show Bio

i can tolorate it in Movies, if well executed. MOS for one did it well

Comics though, Unless a different universe, it's crap. Supes shouldn't kill in the mainstream universe.

#18 Posted by Wolverine08 (38965 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe:

Do you expect people to be happy that killing is becoming a regular thing for Superman?

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#19 Edited by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: No its just that there are literally over a hundred other threads about this exact same topic that they can post these complaints on without cluttering the forums with the same thread made over and over. Its not the complaint that bugs me its the thread count. Why couldn't this be said on any of the other threads currently on here that exist solely to complain about the idea of Superman killing?

#20 Posted by UltimateSMfan (1377 posts) - - Show Bio
@lvenger said:

Unlike with Man of Steel, it was clear in the first issue of Trinity War that Superman wasn't responsible for killing Doctor Light. But that's not my problem with it. The problem I have is that it's an unorignal derivative idea. Of all the heroes that could have started the war, Superman should never be amongst the candidates.

With how things are going with the secret society being behind everything and the question figuring out how everything is coming back to superman, it kind of makes sense. i mean implicating the greatest hero in the world in such a crime is probably the best way the society could have initiated whatever plans they have.

#21 Edited by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@drudox19 said:

I have no issue with Superman killing he has killed Brainaic a thousand times already and he has pure intent to Kill Darkseid every time he fights. My issue is that after MOS people will complain about damage if Superman fights Darkseid and Mongul my fear is that those villains will be avoided compelty in this series hell maybe Brainaic will be avoided one of Superman's issues is that we never get to see his alien villains. Superman killing i have no issue, but in Batman Begins Batman let Ra's die. Superman's no killing rule has no back-story matter a fact Batman no killing rule makes sense because of his parents, Superman makes no since WHAT SO EVER!!!! I get why Zack and Nolan did it it similar to Batman Begins when no one really explored batman's origin, MOS no one explored any and i mean any reason to why Superman does not kill,

Some fans try to tell me its because of his morals, then i am like but really how the hell do we know Superman didn't kill because in the past in Smallville he killed a animal by mistake. We don't know AT ALL! Supermans no kill policy is extremely random, Dave Gibbons and Alan Moore and the artist that did Batman Year One were able to do there epic origin tale before it was scrapped to do Watchmen in there Superman Year One pitch Superman's no killing policy happened because he accidenlty kill a cat and when he travelled the world he went to east asia and learned the philosophies of Janism and Taoism and Buddhism both philosophies that harp on the idea of the protection of all lifeforms and applyed them has Superman ,would have been a great origin for Superman too bad it was scrapped and Alan Moore and Dave did Watchmen, we would have had a very very different superman for the modern era matter a fact i would have had Byrne superman be the origin or Krypton and Alan Moore and Daves Superman Year One be about him growing up on earth and start his months becoming superman. I like Alan Moores idea of why Superman does not kill better then writers saying because of his morals has a cop out.

Too bad we didn't get this story and they wrote Watchmen instead, it was going to be a very politically heavy book to and it would go back to the roots of Superman being a social crusader. What interest me about there idea was Gotham was a city with police corruption and crime and the mob, Metropolis being the city of hope Alan Moore thought why the heck does the city need superman, there brillaint idea was Metroplis corruption was filled with Corpratism, walking gordan gekkos of wall street and the Miltitary industrial complex. In there idea Lex Luthor , General Sam Lane and Morgan Edge where superman's main villains when clark arrived to metropolis before he created the Clark Kent with the glasses persona.

Superman refuses to kill because of his parents teaching. Cmon dude every superman fan knows that knows that. The reason superman does anything he does is because ma and pa kent gave him the best moral compass possible. That's not very hard to figure out.

Im pretty sure that a lot of people in the real world didn't have to have some tragic event to prevent them from killing. I don't see how his moral values is a cop out, because that's what forms this whole character. The fact that Snyder felt the need to think of a reason shows his lack of understanding of the character. Snyder thinks that every character has to be tragic be cool, which is why I was against him getting the role in the first place.

#22 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman didn't kill.

#23 Posted by Dhor (282 posts) - - Show Bio

i`m more then oky with it. I was kinnda getting tired for supes or bats to always find a way to save somebody. i liked how it was made in MoS: there is no way to stop a kryptonian uless you kill him. no loop hole. kill him or he will kill millions. i trully understand the "no kill rule" but sometimes you can`t save the good guys AND the bad guys. and you have to make a very hard choise

#24 Posted by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: Why is the fact that Superman has killed in pretty much every version of the comics been ignored by the Superman never kills argument, GA Superman killed without hesitation, SA Superman killed a few people, Bronze age Superman had at least 2 kills under his belt, post crisis Superman killed at least 5 times and fully intended to kill Doomsday so the whole Superman never kills argument is completely false since as is abundantly clear he will do it if he feels he has to. And now I know the argument "Well that doesn't count because blah, blah, blah" is coming but just so you know I still say a kill is a kill and every instance I mentioned is a valid part of Superman's history regardless of reboots and retcons so nothing you can say will change my view on it because they're irrefutable facts.

Sure he never killed anyone in the Cartoons but neither did Punisher when he was on Spider-Man TAS or Super Hero Squad. I'm sorry if this upsets you but facts are facts. Also he did kill a few people in the Fleischer cartoons as well.

#25 Posted by UncannyOutsiders (9 posts) - - Show Bio
#26 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: Why is the fact that Superman has killed in pretty much every version of the comics been ignored by the Superman never kills argument, GA Superman killed without hesitation, SA Superman killed a few people, Bronze age Superman had at least 2 kills under his belt, post crisis Superman killed at least 5 times and fully intended to kill Doomsday so the whole Superman never kills argument is completely false since as is abundantly clear he will do it if he feels he has to. And now I know the argument "Well that doesn't count because blah, blah, blah" is coming but just so you know I still say a kill is a kill and every instance I mentioned is a valid part of Superman's history regardless of reboots and retcons so nothing you can say will change my view on it because they're irrefutable facts.

Sure he never killed anyone in the Cartoons but neither did Punisher when he was on Spider-Man TAS or Super Hero Squad. I'm sorry if this upsets you but facts are facts. Also he did kill a few people in the Fleischer cartoons as well.

BOOM!

PS. Superman from the cartoon did seen to have no problems with killing Darkseid or Mongul.

#27 Posted by Wolverine08 (38965 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe:

Superman is supposed to teach us how to be better people and find better alternatives. He should be an example of not forsaking your morals when it seems hard not to. You said yesterday that you don't want Supes to become an anti hero, yet you're okay with him killing every time he gets the impulse to?

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#28 Edited by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: I did not say he should be killing all the time, I'm just saying that he has killed in the past. It is a fact it happened, its as simple as that so all these people arguing that Superman never kills are clearly wrong. Simply stating that fact does not in any way imply that I want him to start killing all the time its just STATING A FACT.

#29 Edited by frogdog (3241 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@joshmightbe:

Superman is supposed to teach us how to be better people and find better alternatives. He should be an example of not forsaking your morals when it seems hard not to. You said yesterday that you don't want Supes to become an anti hero, yet you're okay with him killing every time he gets the impulse to?

First of all, apart the paradoms in the first justice league arc, Superman only kills if it's a last resort of defence for the earth. Second josh is simply pointing out that superman has killed in the past, regardless of his no killing stance.

#30 Posted by Lvenger (18485 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: Why is the fact that Superman has killed in pretty much every version of the comics been ignored by the Superman never kills argument, GA Superman killed without hesitation, SA Superman killed a few people, Bronze age Superman had at least 2 kills under his belt, post crisis Superman killed at least 5 times and fully intended to kill Doomsday so the whole Superman never kills argument is completely false since as is abundantly clear he will do it if he feels he has to. And now I know the argument "Well that doesn't count because blah, blah, blah" is coming but just so you know I still say a kill is a kill and every instance I mentioned is a valid part of Superman's history regardless of reboots and retcons so nothing you can say will change my view on it because they're irrefutable facts.

Sure he never killed anyone in the Cartoons but neither did Punisher when he was on Spider-Man TAS or Super Hero Squad. I'm sorry if this upsets you but facts are facts. Also he did kill a few people in the Fleischer cartoons as well.

You do realise that the times Superman has killed goes against the majority of evidence that show him having a god damn no killing rule? Frankly I'm getting tired of making this point over and over again to the opposition. You want to talk facts? Factually I can give you ten times the number of no killing quotes Superman has said over the times a writer has made the poor choice to kill him due to PIS on the writer's part. Irrefutable events set on panel that define the character far more than his decision to kill.

@sandman_ You may retract the boom now due to this response clarifying things up now ;)

#31 Posted by LaserLambert (635 posts) - - Show Bio

People who say Superman doesn't kill are people who are afraid of seeing Superman put in a situation where killing could potentially save more lives than not killing.

Naive is the term.

#32 Posted by DRUDOX19 (157 posts) - - Show Bio

When people say we are supposed to make superman better then us morally ( -_-) yeah i get it , this to me borderlines on god worship

#33 Edited by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: I'm not arguing this anymore, I never once said I supported the idea of Superman killing often I simply stated the fact that Superman has killed on multiple occasions. The fact that he has killed is well established as is the fact that he'd prefer not to. You can say he has a no kill code till you're blue in the face but the fact remains that Superman has killed, period the end.

#34 Edited by DeathpooltheT1000 (9601 posts) - - Show Bio

#35 Posted by Justthatkid (3079 posts) - - Show Bio
#36 Posted by SandMan_ (4528 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Sorry buddy, I'm on Josh side. Don't worry though, just like him, I don't want Superman to start killing people, we are just pointing out facts.

#37 Edited by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@joshmightbe said:

@eternal19: Why is the fact that Superman has killed in pretty much every version of the comics been ignored by the Superman never kills argument, GA Superman killed without hesitation, SA Superman killed a few people, Bronze age Superman had at least 2 kills under his belt, post crisis Superman killed at least 5 times and fully intended to kill Doomsday so the whole Superman never kills argument is completely false since as is abundantly clear he will do it if he feels he has to. And now I know the argument "Well that doesn't count because blah, blah, blah" is coming but just so you know I still say a kill is a kill and every instance I mentioned is a valid part of Superman's history regardless of reboots and retcons so nothing you can say will change my view on it because they're irrefutable facts.

Sure he never killed anyone in the Cartoons but neither did Punisher when he was on Spider-Man TAS or Super Hero Squad. I'm sorry if this upsets you but facts are facts. Also he did kill a few people in the Fleischer cartoons as well.

You do realise that the times Superman has killed goes against the majority of evidence that show him having a god damn no killing rule? Frankly I'm getting tired of making this point over and over again to the opposition. You want to talk facts? Factually I can give you ten times the number of no killing quotes Superman has said over the times a writer has made the poor choice to kill him due to PIS on the writer's part. Irrefutable events set on panel that define the character far more than his decision to kill.

@sandman_ You may retract the boom now due to this response clarifying things up now ;)

thank you. Im sick and tired of people quoting random PIS events in order to defend MOS. When there are twice as many examples that show supes refusing to kill

#38 Edited by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

i can tolorate it in Movies, if well executed. MOS for one did it well

Comics though, Unless a different universe, it's crap. Supes shouldn't kill in the mainstream universe.

this

#39 Posted by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: Oh I forgot that rule about only stating facts that support your argument. My bad. Why is it that every single time people on this site encounter a fact that doesn't agree with them its instant PIS. I have stated very clearly that these were mostly isolated incidents that only occurred when there were no other options. Also in MOS regardless of the director's intent Superman was put in a situation where he had no other options that didn't end in millions of people dying so he did what he had to do just like every other time he's done it in the comics. If you knew anything about Superman you'd know that he is in fact capable of mistakes and he has stated pretty much every time he's had to kill that he sees it as a personal failure so no these are not PIS moments they are in some cases character defining moments. Also if you're discussing original intent I'll point you to the fact that right up until they put the CCA in place the Superman written by his original creators wouldn't even hesitate to kill or feel guilty about it.

I honestly prefer my Superman to be the optimist who hates killing but I'm not some fake fan who's going to ignore facts because I don't like them.

#40 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: Why is the fact that Superman has killed in pretty much every version of the comics been ignored by the Superman never kills argument, GA Superman killed without hesitation, SA Superman killed a few people, Bronze age Superman had at least 2 kills under his belt, post crisis Superman killed at least 5 times and fully intended to kill Doomsday so the whole Superman never kills argument is completely false since as is abundantly clear he will do it if he feels he has to. And now I know the argument "Well that doesn't count because blah, blah, blah" is coming but just so you know I still say a kill is a kill and every instance I mentioned is a valid part of Superman's history regardless of reboots and retcons so nothing you can say will change my view on it because they're irrefutable facts.

Sure he never killed anyone in the Cartoons but neither did Punisher when he was on Spider-Man TAS or Super Hero Squad. I'm sorry if this upsets you but facts are facts. Also he did kill a few people in the Fleischer cartoons as well.

This a bazillion times!

#41 Edited by w0nd (2946 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@joshmightbe said:

@eternal19: Why is the fact that Superman has killed in pretty much every version of the comics been ignored by the Superman never kills argument, GA Superman killed without hesitation, SA Superman killed a few people, Bronze age Superman had at least 2 kills under his belt, post crisis Superman killed at least 5 times and fully intended to kill Doomsday so the whole Superman never kills argument is completely false since as is abundantly clear he will do it if he feels he has to. And now I know the argument "Well that doesn't count because blah, blah, blah" is coming but just so you know I still say a kill is a kill and every instance I mentioned is a valid part of Superman's history regardless of reboots and retcons so nothing you can say will change my view on it because they're irrefutable facts.

Sure he never killed anyone in the Cartoons but neither did Punisher when he was on Spider-Man TAS or Super Hero Squad. I'm sorry if this upsets you but facts are facts. Also he did kill a few people in the Fleischer cartoons as well.

You do realise that the times Superman has killed goes against the majority of evidence that show him having a god damn no killing rule? Frankly I'm getting tired of making this point over and over again to the opposition. You want to talk facts? Factually I can give you ten times the number of no killing quotes Superman has said over the times a writer has made the poor choice to kill him due to PIS on the writer's part. Irrefutable events set on panel that define the character far more than his decision to kill.

@sandman_ You may retract the boom now due to this response clarifying things up now ;)

thank you. Im sick and tired of people quoting random PIS events in order to defend MOS. When there are twice as many examples that show supes refusing to kill

well that's the thing..just because someone "says" they aren't going to do something doesn't mean they will never ever ever do this. Superman is capeable of doing wrong and making mistakes. Do we want him to, no of course not. " it doesn't count, superman says he doesn't like killing so it's pis" I don't think many soldiers actually "like" to kill either, some are insane clearly, others were forced to.

I'm not counting this because this is not how MY superman would act....well it happened sadly, you can ignore it but it happened. Just like he intended to kill that possessed girl and apologized for it, but she didn't end up dying.

#42 Posted by Lvenger (18485 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: Oh I forgot that rule about only stating facts that support your argument. My bad. Why is it that every single time people on this site encounter a fact that doesn't agree with them its instant PIS. I have stated very clearly that these were mostly isolated incidents that only occurred when there were no other options. Also in MOS regardless of the director's intent Superman was put in a situation where he had no other options that didn't end in millions of people dying so he did what he had to do just like every other time he's done it in the comics. If you knew anything about Superman you'd know that he is in fact capable of mistakes and he has stated pretty much every time he's had to kill that he sees it as a personal failure so no these are not PIS moments they are in some cases character defining moments. Also if you're discussing original intent I'll point you to the fact that right up until they put the CCA in place the Superman written by his original creators wouldn't even hesitate to kill or feel guilty about it.

I honestly prefer my Superman to be the optimist who hates killing but I'm not some fake fan who's going to ignore facts because I don't like them.

I fail to see how focusing on the times Superman has explicitly said he won't kill makes for a bad argument. Try looking at the scans in question rather than ignore the blatant error in the event that took place. Take Our Worlds at War for example. When confronted with a seemingly impossible choice, just like in Man of Steel, Superman found another way to deal with Imperiex. And whilst pushing him into the Boom Tube Superman thinks "A SUPERMAN DOES NOT KILL, NOT EVEN IN WAR." So even in a circumstances where immoral things are considered worthy such as killing, Superman refuses to break his code. Or how about when he talks to the Elite about how killing is ugly and that heroes shouldn't be mean. That's what was betrayed in MOS by that act. Snyder thought Superman needed a tragedy to give him the moral compass he has. That shows a flawed understanding of the character when it's his parents who make him the person he is.

I freely concede to your point that the CCA made Superman into the more virtuous boy scout and if not for that, we may have a Superman who kills more freely. But the thing is that if you're honestly relying on a few single events over a vastly more comprehensive account of showings for Superman's morality, I'm afraid it's you who are discounting facts that don't support your argument.

#43 Posted by Lvenger (18485 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: Apologies I didn't read your last comment before posting the previous one. Ignore that last post of mine then. I won't pursue it any further as per your wish.

#44 Posted by drgnx (3551 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: Oh I forgot that rule about only stating facts that support your argument. My bad. Why is it that every single time people on this site encounter a fact that doesn't agree with them its instant PIS. I have stated very clearly that these were mostly isolated incidents that only occurred when there were no other options. Also in MOS regardless of the director's intent Superman was put in a situation where he had no other options that didn't end in millions of people dying so he did what he had to do just like every other time he's done it in the comics. If you knew anything about Superman you'd know that he is in fact capable of mistakes and he has stated pretty much every time he's had to kill that he sees it as a personal failure so no these are not PIS moments they are in some cases character defining moments. Also if you're discussing original intent I'll point you to the fact that right up until they put the CCA in place the Superman written by his original creators wouldn't even hesitate to kill or feel guilty about it.

I honestly prefer my Superman to be the optimist who hates killing but I'm not some fake fan who's going to ignore facts because I don't like them.

+1

#45 Posted by consolemaster001 (4986 posts) - - Show Bio

It was a stupid scene.

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#46 Edited by fodigg (6146 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't like any of my superheroes killing. That's what makes them superheroes.

I kind of let it go in live-action stuff, which tends to be forced into realistic presentations of violence, but even then you get into strange situations like Bruce Wayne refusing to kill that one guy and then blowing up a building and killing everyone inside including that one guy to prove it (Batman Begins) or Oliver Queen shooting like twenty mooks in the throat with arrows but then having a crisis about "crossing a line" when it comes time to kill the big bad (Arrow).

We all know that in reality we can't expect our defenders to shoot the guns out of criminals hands and then take em in unharmed, but this is modern mythic fantasy. The violence in superhero stories is metaphorical. It doesn't need to end in a kill and in my opinion what makes the hero is that they don't kill. The more important that is to them, the more heroic they are. It's a shame that both Batman and now Superman have had to sacrifice that measure of heroism as they were adapted for the general audience.

#47 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: Oh I forgot that rule about only stating facts that support your argument. My bad. Why is it that every single time people on this site encounter a fact that doesn't agree with them its instant PIS. I have stated very clearly that these were mostly isolated incidents that only occurred when there were no other options. Also in MOS regardless of the director's intent Superman was put in a situation where he had no other options that didn't end in millions of people dying so he did what he had to do just like every other time he's done it in the comics. If you knew anything about Superman you'd know that he is in fact capable of mistakes and he has stated pretty much every time he's had to kill that he sees it as a personal failure so no these are not PIS moments they are in some cases character defining moments. Also if you're discussing original intent I'll point you to the fact that right up until they put the CCA in place the Superman written by his original creators wouldn't even hesitate to kill or feel guilty about it.

I honestly prefer my Superman to be the optimist who hates killing but I'm not some fake fan who's going to ignore facts because I don't like them.

wow very mature caling me a fake fan grow up, I haven't insulted you. The reason its PIS or bad writing is because there are twice as many examples of him refusing to kill. Im not denying that he's killed before im just saying that him killing is bad writing. I've stated multiple times that it wasn't the actual scene that bothered me, it was the directors reason for inserting the scene. he only added that in so, they could have a reason for supes no-kill code. I don't care about the bronze age I care about the modern superman and modern superman doesn't kill. now please get of my as* about it.

#48 Posted by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: I wasn't calling Superman a killer I was just saying that he has in fact killed before regardless of what he's said, it is an established fact that he will if he has to this isn't an arguable point any more, once or twice sure that might be PIS but more than 12 counts as a pattern.

#49 Posted by Eternal19 (2076 posts) - - Show Bio

@w0nd said:

@eternal19 said:

@lvenger said:

@joshmightbe said:

@eternal19: Why is the fact that Superman has killed in pretty much every version of the comics been ignored by the Superman never kills argument, GA Superman killed without hesitation, SA Superman killed a few people, Bronze age Superman had at least 2 kills under his belt, post crisis Superman killed at least 5 times and fully intended to kill Doomsday so the whole Superman never kills argument is completely false since as is abundantly clear he will do it if he feels he has to. And now I know the argument "Well that doesn't count because blah, blah, blah" is coming but just so you know I still say a kill is a kill and every instance I mentioned is a valid part of Superman's history regardless of reboots and retcons so nothing you can say will change my view on it because they're irrefutable facts.

Sure he never killed anyone in the Cartoons but neither did Punisher when he was on Spider-Man TAS or Super Hero Squad. I'm sorry if this upsets you but facts are facts. Also he did kill a few people in the Fleischer cartoons as well.

You do realise that the times Superman has killed goes against the majority of evidence that show him having a god damn no killing rule? Frankly I'm getting tired of making this point over and over again to the opposition. You want to talk facts? Factually I can give you ten times the number of no killing quotes Superman has said over the times a writer has made the poor choice to kill him due to PIS on the writer's part. Irrefutable events set on panel that define the character far more than his decision to kill.

@sandman_ You may retract the boom now due to this response clarifying things up now ;)

thank you. Im sick and tired of people quoting random PIS events in order to defend MOS. When there are twice as many examples that show supes refusing to kill

well that's the thing..just because someone "says" they aren't going to do something doesn't mean they will never ever ever do this. Superman is capeable of doing wrong and making mistakes. Do we want him to, no of course not. " it doesn't count, superman says he doesn't like killing so it's pis" I don't think many soldiers actually "like" to kill either, some are insane clearly, others were forced to.

I'm not counting this because this is not how MY superman would act....well it happened sadly, you can ignore it but it happened. Just like he intended to kill that possessed girl and apologized for it, but she didn't end up dying.

I never said he wasn't capable of mistakes I made a thread about not long ago. people keep sighting random scans like the john bryne scan which I believe wasn't well executed.or scans from the 40's and we all know that bronze age superman isn't the same as modern superman. My problem with the killing is that there are twice as many examples of him refusing to kill even when most would think it would be the right thing to do. Superman killing is really out of character and I think any superman fan would agree with that.

#50 Edited by joshmightbe (24692 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: I wasn't agreeing with it, I was just stating the fact that it has happened. Ignoring facts doesn't mean they disappear