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#1 Posted by Bezza (3681 posts) - - Show Bio

DC fans constantly witter on about Batman v Superman, but surely Superman v Shazam SHOULD be the closest rivalry in DC. I mean we have two characters with seemingly matching strength, speed and power, one of which has heat vision, the other magic lightning bolts. These two have met a few times, but in all honesty would not Shazam have the edge...simply because his attacks are magic based and Superman is not invulnerable to magic attacks, as seen when Diana has cut him with her magic swords.....putting aside bias, what do fellow Superman fans feel about this intruiging rivalry?

#2 Edited by Johnni_Kun (289 posts) - - Show Bio

Shazam should be able to beat Superman in almost every kind of scenario. But, DC will never have the balls to actually do it. At least in the current continuity.

#3 Edited by SanoHibiki (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

If we assume that Black Adam is equal to Billy and Ultraman on the same level of strength as Superman, then in New-52 Superman will be kicking Shazam’s b…tt around.

But anyway, I don’t see too much rivalry between them. Superman and Batman are practically opposite: alien and human, superpower and peak of human capabilities, different modus operandi, etc. Superman and Shazam similar in many ways to make that potential rivalry not very interesting IMO.

#4 Posted by RDClip (1132 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman and Batman have very different personalities and ideologies. They also represent very different aspects of the human psyche (hope and justice).

While Supes and Shazam are better matched for a big fight, they don't really have a clash in terms of anything other than the physical. Superman is a bright hopeful character, and Shazam is a bright hopeful character. See, there's nothing really there to get a fan's brain teeth into.

By all rights Shazam would make a better protege to Superman than rival. They have a similar power set, but Superman is older and more experienced. I like to think of Shazam is naive (yes, despite having the wisdom of Solomon) and Superman would be the best hero to guide him down the path of being a good god-like hero.

#5 Posted by PowerWoman (3381 posts) - - Show Bio

PC shazam as powerful as PC superman,he move planets,stars,FTL,withstand "nothing" itself,Absolute invulnerability,etc

he could be match silver age superman

#6 Edited by Black_Arrow (3199 posts) - - Show Bio

no this is as Batman and Green arrow, Batman would destroy green arrow and Superman would destroy Shazam.

#7 Edited by consolemaster001 (5670 posts) - - Show Bio

You have a point

#8 Posted by ColaNicole (592 posts) - - Show Bio

Shazam's magic does give an edge. However, Superman has much more experience atm. The short fight in Trinity War proves this. Hopefully Shazam will get his own series.

#9 Edited by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

Hold on a tic. Superman's powers give him no resistance to magic, so anything magic based does just as much damage as it would to a normal human being, completely circumventing his durability. A magic spear cuts him like a spear would cut anyone else. Magic sword, same. Magic fire burns him, and so on.

So that being the case, shouldn't Captain Marvel COMPLETELY outclass him, since all of his strength is derived from magic? Shouldn't one punch from Captain Marvel do to Superman what such a punch would do to a normal human being, and knock him the f*** out instantly?

#10 Edited by Dernman (15160 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith: Not necessarily. It depends on how the magic works. When CM hits him is he getting hit by magic or just a fist. Is magic just the fuel source or is it an area effect bending natures laws? Say Superman was vulnerable to electricity and was hit by a robot powered by say electricity he's not getting hit by electricity but if he was hit by a bolt of electricity they would have a different effect. It's the same reasoning that Superman has been able to fight the magic beings in his rogues gallery.

#11 Posted by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

Not necessarily. It depends on how the magic works. When CM hits him is he getting hit by magic or just a fist. Is magic just the fuel source or is it an area effect bending the natures laws. Say Superman was vulnerable to electricity and was hit by a robot powered by say electricity he's not getting hit by electricity but if he was hit by a bolt of electricity they would have a different effect. It's the same reasoning that Superman has been able to fight the magic beings in his rogues gallery.

In regards to the bold, I'd say both: Considering the nature of Captain Marvel, I would assume he is a being made of magic. Like Swamp Thing is made of vegetation, Cap is made of magic. So him punching Superman should be the equivalent of Superman punching a normal human being. To use your analogy: If Superman was vulnerable to electricity, this is like him getting punched by Zzzax. Still, I'm not familiar enough with Captain Marvel to say for certain, so I'll let it go.

#12 Edited by ColaNicole (592 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith: It's always different. In Action comics he's been hit by big magic attacks and although it hurt him he was fine. He still has a healing factor and can still take alot of damage despite the fact it's magic based.

#13 Edited by Dernman (15160 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith said:

@dernman said:

Not necessarily. It depends on how the magic works. When CM hits him is he getting hit by magic or just a fist. Is magic just the fuel source or is it an area effect bending the natures laws. Say Superman was vulnerable to electricity and was hit by a robot powered by say electricity he's not getting hit by electricity but if he was hit by a bolt of electricity they would have a different effect. It's the same reasoning that Superman has been able to fight the magic beings in his rogues gallery.

In regards to the bold, I'd say both: Considering the nature of Captain Marvel, I would assume he is a being made of magic. Like Swamp Thing is made of vegetation, Cap is made of magic. So him punching Superman should be the equivalent of Superman punching a normal human being. To use your analogy: If Superman was vulnerable to electricity, this is like him getting punched by Zzzax. Still, I'm not familiar enough with Captain Marvel to say for certain, so I'll let it go.

I get your point even though I disagree some but what I was really trying to get across was is it's a matter of how you look at it. Your point of view is just as valid as mine because writers like to leave it questionable. They like to do that so they have room to do what they want with the story.

#14 Posted by dondave (37987 posts) - - Show Bio

If we assume that Black Adam is equal to Billy and Ultraman on the same level of strength as Superman, then in New-52 Superman will be kicking Shazam’s b…tt around.

But anyway, I don’t see too much rivalry between them. Superman and Batman are practically opposite: alien and human, superpower and peak of human capabilities, different modus operandi, etc. Superman and Shazam similar in many ways to make that potential rivalry not very interesting IMO.

Ultraman was only able to do that because he's immune to magic, Superman isn't.

#15 Posted by Mxyzptlk_CV (1165 posts) - - Show Bio

I never understood this : "Shazam wins because of Magic"...He could win but it's not because he has magic on his side...Even if his powers weren't magic based he could win...

However, Superman could take him too...it's not like one touch of magic kills him!...He is invulnerable to almost anything, but he is vulnerable to magic...so what? It just makes it more fair for the others..

..and even if Ultraman was vulnerable to magic, he could still come back beat Black Adam (Forever Evil #3)...it's just that the lightining bolt would do some serious damage...but wouldn't put him out of comission...

#16 Edited by Kalel121 (15 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith said:

@dernman said:

Not necessarily. It depends on how the magic works. When CM hits him is he getting hit by magic or just a fist. Is magic just the fuel source or is it an area effect bending the natures laws. Say Superman was vulnerable to electricity and was hit by a robot powered by say electricity he's not getting hit by electricity but if he was hit by a bolt of electricity they would have a different effect. It's the same reasoning that Superman has been able to fight the magic beings in his rogues gallery.

In regards to the bold, I'd say both: Considering the nature of Captain Marvel, I would assume he is a being made of magic. Like Swamp Thing is made of vegetation, Cap is made of magic. So him punching Superman should be the equivalent of Superman punching a normal human being. To use your analogy: If Superman was vulnerable to electricity, this is like him getting punched by Zzzax. Still, I'm not familiar enough with Captain Marvel to say for certain, so I'll let it go.

Pre Flashpoint Captain Marvel never looked like he was hitting Superman with any sort of magical enhancement. Barring Loeb's PIS fight somehow justifying Marvel's victory over Superman and that one time he hit Superman with a magical fist, he's never hit Superman with any magical enhancements on his physical attacks. It's always a straight up brawl which usually ends up with the two stalemating. In the New 52 though, Shazam seems to have lightning/magic coming out of his hands and his physical attacks which would make your argument make more sense. But so far, Superman was shown tanking Billy's attack and outperforming him based on experience using his powers. Just some perspective on my opinion on that point.

#17 Posted by Bezza (3681 posts) - - Show Bio

@kalel121 said:

@jonsmith said:

@dernman said:

Not necessarily. It depends on how the magic works. When CM hits him is he getting hit by magic or just a fist. Is magic just the fuel source or is it an area effect bending the natures laws. Say Superman was vulnerable to electricity and was hit by a robot powered by say electricity he's not getting hit by electricity but if he was hit by a bolt of electricity they would have a different effect. It's the same reasoning that Superman has been able to fight the magic beings in his rogues gallery.

In regards to the bold, I'd say both: Considering the nature of Captain Marvel, I would assume he is a being made of magic. Like Swamp Thing is made of vegetation, Cap is made of magic. So him punching Superman should be the equivalent of Superman punching a normal human being. To use your analogy: If Superman was vulnerable to electricity, this is like him getting punched by Zzzax. Still, I'm not familiar enough with Captain Marvel to say for certain, so I'll let it go.

Pre Flashpoint Captain Marvel never looked like he was hitting Superman with any sort of magical enhancement. Barring Loeb's PIS fight somehow justifying Marvel's victory over Superman and that one time he hit Superman with a magical fist, he's never hit Superman with any magical enhancements on his physical attacks. It's always a straight up brawl which usually ends up with the two stalemating. In the New 52 though, Shazam seems to have lightning/magic coming out of his hands and his physical attacks which would make your argument make more sense. But so far, Superman was shown tanking Billy's attack and outperforming him based on experience using his powers. Just some perspective on my opinion on that point.

In New 52, I thought their only meeting was in Trinity where each got one shot in before the other JL members surrounded Billy..what is their other encounter, I am intruiged. Btw when I said rivalry, I was thinking mainly that they are evenly matched on power so that kind of makes them rivals...

#18 Posted by ColaNicole (592 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: It was the only encounter but Superman ended it by smashing him into the ground.

#19 Posted by SanoHibiki (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave:

Ultraman was only able to do that because he's immune to magic, Superman isn't.

Why do you think that Ultraman immune to magic? Was that stated somewhere officially? ‘Cause if not, then

That’s not seems like “immune to magic” for me.

#20 Posted by Kalel121 (15 posts) - - Show Bio
#21 Edited by dondave (37987 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave:

Ultraman was only able to do that because he's immune to magic, Superman isn't.

Why do you think that Ultraman immune to magic? Was that stated somewhere officially? ‘Cause if not, then

That’s not seems like “immune to magic” for me.

He was only bleeding because he needed Kryptonite

#22 Posted by ColaNicole (592 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave: I think it's a combination of Black Adam's attacks and the kryptonite at a point where it had worn off.

#23 Posted by Bezza (3681 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: It was the only encounter but Superman ended it by smashing him into the ground.

Superman didn't end it. As I read it, Shazam just got up unharmed and was surrounded by the other Justice League members before he could carry on. The Kingdom Come battle is most interesting, because Superman really is taking a bad beating from the repeated "Shazams", before he manages to turn Shazam back to Billy. His heat vision also doesn't seem to do much damage to Billy (unlike the Injustice Gods confrontation). Now I know the story isn't canon and Superman is playing a restraining role, rather than going on all out attack mode, but it does show that Superman would have a hard time if the two fought properly..

#24 Posted by youmessinwithme (1189 posts) - - Show Bio

According to Superman their powers are pretty much even But Captain Marvel has the advantage in a direct confrontation because Superman is vulnerable to magic. but that was pre-flash point. it would seem like no Superman is overall marginally more powerful than Shazam and that at least makes up the difference that the magic vulnerability swayed in Shazam's favor both with Supes vs Shazam and Ultraman vs BA.

#25 Posted by Bruxae (13984 posts) - - Show Bio

The only thing bothering me about it is that I dont want a child beating up Superman.

#26 Posted by HolySerpent (12567 posts) - - Show Bio
@dondave said:

@sanohibiki said:

@dondave:

Ultraman was only able to do that because he's immune to magic, Superman isn't.

Why do you think that Ultraman immune to magic? Was that stated somewhere officially? ‘Cause if not, then

That’s not seems like “immune to magic” for me.

He was only bleeding because he needed Kryptonite

Your making that up.

#27 Edited by JonSmith (3996 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

He was only bleeding because he needed Kryptonite

Your making that up.

He isn't, actually. Ultraman, being the evil counterpart to Superman, actually fuels his powers with Kryptonite, and going into sunlight flushes the kryptonite from his cells, hence why he stays out of the sun. So when he gets decked and starts bleeding, he immediately asks for the next kryptonite cache (Metallo) to recharge his powers.

#28 Posted by WIshIWasSuperman (1351 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith said:

Hold on a tic. Superman's powers give him no resistance to magic, so anything magic based does just as much damage as it would to a normal human being, completely circumventing his durability. A magic spear cuts him like a spear would cut anyone else. Magic sword, same. Magic fire burns him, and so on.

So that being the case, shouldn't Captain Marvel COMPLETELY outclass him, since all of his strength is derived from magic? Shouldn't one punch from Captain Marvel do to Superman what such a punch would do to a normal human being, and knock him the f*** out instantly?

No. You're forgetting Superman's over-all strength and durability. While Superman doesn't have an invulnerability to magic (meaning it can hurt him, unlike, say, a bullet) that doesn't automatically make him "weak" to it either. A spear (magic or not) would do more damage to a regular human than to any hero, even those who are susceptible to piercing weapons. Ergo, while a magic spear can cut Superman - that doesn't mean he's automatically going to lose his arm to it. It just makes it more of a threat than a non-magical spear.

For example, in Action #35 he gets blasted by a VERY powerful magical attack (just using a N52 reference as that's the most pertinent) and while initially it knocks him out (by all rights it should have otherwise killed him, at least that's what everyone else there thought) he adjusts his strategy once he realises he's dealing with magic.

#29 Posted by deaditegonzo (3686 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is stronger, faster, and more experienced than Shazam. Whenever Supes' vulnerability to magic comes up, its a mess that makes very little sense. Think about no less vulnerable than a normal human? Uh, he has taken magical lightning bolts, city wiping magic blasts, magic weapons, etc. Im just going to think of magic as something that hurts more than standard physical attacks.

#31 Edited by PowerWoman (3381 posts) - - Show Bio

#32 Posted by PowerWoman (3381 posts) - - Show Bio

#33 Posted by HolySerpent (12567 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith said:

@holyserpent said:
@dondave said:

He was only bleeding because he needed Kryptonite

Your making that up.

He isn't, actually. Ultraman, being the evil counterpart to Superman, actually fuels his powers with Kryptonite, and going into sunlight flushes the kryptonite from his cells, hence why he stays out of the sun. So when he gets decked and starts bleeding, he immediately asks for the next kryptonite cache (Metallo) to recharge his powers.

I have the comic and it doesnt say anywhere hes immune to magic. Judging by the panel he never came across someone like Black Adam, thats why he was laughing on how silly it the word "SHAZAM" was, until he started bleeding. Not to mention he recently absorb Kryptonite

#34 Edited by PowerWoman (3381 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is stronger, faster, and more experienced than Shazam. Whenever Supes' vulnerability to magic comes up, its a mess that makes very little sense. Think about no less vulnerable than a normal human? Uh, he has taken magical lightning bolts, city wiping magic blasts, magic weapons, etc. Im just going to think of magic as something that hurts more than standard physical attacks.

Superman isnt stronger,faster,at least not PC shazam

#35 Edited by MonsterStomp (18244 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Shazam should put the beat down on Superman 6/10 times. He's suppose to have battle tactics from the Gods/Titans.

#36 Posted by PowerWoman (3381 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Shazam should put the beat down on Superman 6/10 times. He's suppose to have battle tactics from the Gods/Titans.

100% right,DC just dont want to "superman" lose

#37 Edited by Johnni_Kun (289 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman beating Shazam, is like Batman beating Deathstroke. Superman fans just don't want to admit that there is someone that can beat him. (or is possibly better than him.....)

#38 Edited by PowerWoman (3381 posts) - - Show Bio

@johnni_kun: In fact PC shazam have pretty good feats could be match even Silver age superman

#39 Posted by dondave (37987 posts) - - Show Bio

@jonsmith said:

@holyserpent said:
@dondave said:

He was only bleeding because he needed Kryptonite

Your making that up.

He isn't, actually. Ultraman, being the evil counterpart to Superman, actually fuels his powers with Kryptonite, and going into sunlight flushes the kryptonite from his cells, hence why he stays out of the sun. So when he gets decked and starts bleeding, he immediately asks for the next kryptonite cache (Metallo) to recharge his powers.

I have the comic and it doesnt say anywhere hes immune to magic. Judging by the panel he never came across someone like Black Adam, thats why he was laughing on how silly it the word "SHAZAM" was, until he started bleeding. Not to mention he recently absorb Kryptonite

Geoff Johns confirmed it in interview with Newsarama that he'snot affected by Magic.

Nrama: The Black Adam fight with Ultraman is being billed as "what would happen if Superman fought Shazam." But would that fight be different?

Johns: Ultraman doesn't have any weakness to magic.

Ultraman was looking for Kryptonite before the fight even started, not to mention we don't know how much of it he needs, the amount he took from Lexcorp may not have been enough for him and it was hours before the fight even started.

#40 Posted by HolySerpent (12567 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@holyserpent said:

@jonsmith said:

@holyserpent said:
@dondave said:

He was only bleeding because he needed Kryptonite

Your making that up.

He isn't, actually. Ultraman, being the evil counterpart to Superman, actually fuels his powers with Kryptonite, and going into sunlight flushes the kryptonite from his cells, hence why he stays out of the sun. So when he gets decked and starts bleeding, he immediately asks for the next kryptonite cache (Metallo) to recharge his powers.

I have the comic and it doesnt say anywhere hes immune to magic. Judging by the panel he never came across someone like Black Adam, thats why he was laughing on how silly it the word "SHAZAM" was, until he started bleeding. Not to mention he recently absorb Kryptonite

Geoff Johns confirmed it in interview with Newsarama that he'snot affected by Magic.

Nrama: The Black Adam fight with Ultraman is being billed as "what would happen if Superman fought Shazam." But would that fight be different?

Johns: Ultraman doesn't have any weakness to magic.

Thanks for the clarity.

Ultraman was looking for Kryptonite before the fight even started, not to mention we don't know how much of it he needs, the amount he took from Lexcorp may not have been enough for him and it was hours before the fight even started.

In the Issue he said he was the strongest again

#41 Posted by HolySerpent (12567 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman beating Shazam, is like Batman beating Deathstroke. Superman fans just don't want to admit that there is someone that can beat him. (or is possibly better than him.....)

N52 Shazam shouldn't beat superman due to his lack of experience, and his child like mentality.

#42 Edited by SanoHibiki (1543 posts) - - Show Bio

Kalel121

Thanks for the link.

@dondave

Now that we established Ultra’s immunity to magic, outcome of his encounter with Adam makes even less sense to me.

I can get reversed Kryptonian physiology: absorbing K-radiation, weakened by sun and even immune to magic. So far all ok. But then – if level of K-radiation in Ultraman’s body gets lower than certain point, he get bleedings and possibly gets hurt (instead of simply depowering ). That’s lacks even the most common sense to me. Ultraman is so addicted to Kryptonite that he literally can’t live without it? Or Adam actually managed to hurt him, at least a little, and that’s result of some lasting inner damage?

After all that said and done, I agree with what @wishiwassuperman said:

While Superman doesn't have an invulnerability to magic (meaning it can hurt him, unlike, say, a bullet) that doesn't automatically make him "weak" to it either. A spear (magic or not) would do more damage to a regular human than to any hero, even those who are susceptible to piercing weapons. Ergo, while a magic spear can cut Superman - that doesn't mean he's automatically going to lose his arm to it. It just makes it more of a threat than a non-magical spear.

For example, in Action #35 he gets blasted by a VERY powerful magical attack (just using a N52 reference as that's the most pertinent) and while initially it knocks him out (by all rights it should have otherwise killed him, at least that's what everyone else there thought) he adjusts his strategy once he realises he's dealing with magic.

#43 Posted by Bezza (3681 posts) - - Show Bio

According to Superman their powers are pretty much even But Captain Marvel has the advantage in a direct confrontation because Superman is vulnerable to magic. but that was pre-flash point. it would seem like no Superman is overall marginally more powerful than Shazam and that at least makes up the difference that the magic vulnerability swayed in Shazam's favor both with Supes vs Shazam and Ultraman vs BA.

Is this not because Billy in New 52 is at the start of his journey and just learning his craft? I don't see, logically why Superman would be more powerful than Shazam, when they have traditionally been level pegging and basically the magic lightning bolts/derived power source is a major feature in Billy's favour.

#44 Posted by ColaNicole (592 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: Regardless of who intervened, the fight ended with Superman saying, as you may know, " You haven't seen me be yet" at which point he stopped holding back that little bit and dropped Shazam like a motherfu*ker.

That being said, Shazam with experience and being used to his abilities should win, but doesn't mean that he would. People play on magic just as much as kryptonite. Both hurt him, but at times he can resit enough to see it through.

#45 Posted by THORSON (2448 posts) - - Show Bio

no this is as Batman and Green arrow, Batman would destroy green arrow and Superman would destroy Shazam.

er...wow...

#46 Posted by Bezza (3681 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza: Regardless of who intervened, the fight ended with Superman saying, as you may know, " You haven't seen me be yet" at which point he stopped holding back that little bit and dropped Shazam like a motherfu*ker.

That being said, Shazam with experience and being used to his abilities should win, but doesn't mean that he would. People play on magic just as much as kryptonite. Both hurt him, but at times he can resit enough to see it through.

Yes I agree, I think at this stage in the New 52 story, Superman is stronger, but may be after a Geoff Johns Shazam comic run in a year or two, Billy will be able to stand his ground. I fail to see logically, how Superman beats an experienced Shazam in the majority of encounters, simply because both characters were written to be similar in strength, speed etc and Shazam's magic element, whatever anyone says, gives him the edge.

#47 Edited by marvel123 (377 posts) - - Show Bio

just like batman who wins battles against all odds (beating stronger opponents) why can't superman go against the odds and overcome an opponent who uses magic..................just like he beats metallo

* this whole weakness to magic is ridiculous anyway........originally, i thought he was just supposed to be affected by magic just like everyone else. for instance bullets don't really affect him, but with magic you can turn him into a hippo. magic should not be treated like kryptonite

#48 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

Shazam and Superman have fought many times already, like a lot.

http://hero-envy.blogspot.com/2011/05/superman-vs-captain-marvel.html

These are just some fights.

#49 Posted by Johnni_Kun (289 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvel123: * this whole weakness to magic is ridiculous anyway........originally, i thought he was just supposed to be affected by magic just like everyone else. for instance bullets don't really affect him, but with magic you can turn him into a hippo. magic should not be treated like kryptonite

No, magic shouldn't be treated on the same level as kryptonite. But, it should be able to effect him. I mean come on, Superman Fanboys can't be so childish that they think he shouldn't have any weakness.(except for a rare rock.) Magic totally make sense anyways. It doesn't have to bend to logic.

#50 Posted by WIshIWasSuperman (1351 posts) - - Show Bio

@marvel123: * this whole weakness to magic is ridiculous anyway........originally, i thought he was just supposed to be affected by magic just like everyone else. for instance bullets don't really affect him, but with magic you can turn him into a hippo. magic should not be treated like kryptonite

No, magic shouldn't be treated on the same level as kryptonite. But, it should be able to effect him. I mean come on, Superman Fanboys can't be so childish that they think he shouldn't have any weakness.(except for a rare rock.) Magic totally make sense anyways. It doesn't have to bend to logic.

It's not that anyone thinks it shouldn't have an affect on him (well, most anyway - I'm sure there are some fanboys), it's that the level to which it affects him is the debatable bit. Some believe it shouldn't be THAT damaging to him, certainly nothing like Kryptonite does - however other people seem to think that is how it should be - that a blast of magical lightning should basically drop him. That's the thing I think which is debatable. IMO - no - it shouldn't be anywhere near that level of threat to him. However it should pose a valid and real threat. I'm happy with him being vulnerable to magic based attacks - but I don't like it being viewed or treated as a "weakness" (such as kryptonite). But that's me.