Solar Charge

I'm assuming almost everyone here has read the latest Issue of Justice league, #43. While i enjoyed the issue, i was put off, again, by conveniences taken with respect to furthering Superman's role in the story. These conveniences have become common place with superman with Oh kryptonite, oh magic, oh red sunlight but now with the latest issue of JL...My question is-

When did Superman become an iPhone!?

Now suddenly he loses his charge within hours of not being in direct sunlight? I really want to praise Johns with what he's doing with the darkseid war but that is cringeworthy, zero imagination and a total cop out.

I like the whole solar battery aspect of supes, it kind off establishes his limits. I like the portrayal the most in Superman: Exile, where Supes's powers fade after weeks of use and no direct exposure to sunlight or when he fought doomsday, he fought so hard and used so much power at once that it almost drained him completely but THIS,smh.

A throwaway line from Lex about his suit putting out an adjustably low level kryptonite energy coupled with the lack of a sun could have saved it for me, he wasn't even wearing that green knight suit. I'm probably gonna enjoy the rest of the darkseid war, sickeningly overdone corrupt superman aside but this is gonna be one of those bitter moments of, i don't want to say disrespect but rather apathy towards superman.

What does everyone think about the circumstances leading to Supe's corruption this time?

Superman's role in the majority of JL stories is laughable.

Honestly that's ridiculous. Never mind the fact that Superman flew for months in space without direct sunlight but now he loses his powers that quickly. Honestly this stupid solar flare power looks cool but if it's going to be a cop out for writers to write a depowered Superman then I want it gone. Plus the JL Darkseid war does look amazing, I just hope that now Superman's been charged up he can at least get in a few good hits before the Bat God comes to rescue him.

Well, it is Johns, he has that disadvantage that if he doesn't care about writing a certain character he puts little to no thought into them.

Superman's whole mission in the last arcs is to support Luthor's character evolution.

Like i tell the Bat-dorks who go crazy about Batman not being the main feature in every issue of JL: "this is a team book, not a 'featuring' book."

Sometimes Superman will be written as the focal point and sometimes he'll be regulated to support. For now, let Wonder Woman, Batman, Miracle and Billy get their time in the sun.

Lol the question isn't about superman's prominence in this story but hey that's all well and good, i don't have a problem with Superman's role in the story, let him have no role i don't care, but with the little that he is featured don't cop out on the reason for him losing his powers.(especially since it happens so often)

Even you have to admit him immediately getting drained and vulnerable just because there's no sun is silly given the character's history and just lazy writing. What about all the previous trips to Apokolips supe's mentions? Was he rendered defenseless then too?

This is a problem that happens to poor old Sups a lot in writing. The Solar Battery element is either ignored, so the moment there is no sunlight he has no powers or a limit is never set on how long it can last. Most writers tend to not use it unless it is needed so if Superman has been a few hours away from a yellow sun, no problem the man has spent the last several months under one he is fine.

John in writing seems to like depowering Superman very quickly when away from the sun. In Superman and the legion of Superheroes he is powerless for most of the book due to there not being a yellow sun and in Last Son, a Krypton need only be exposed to red solar energy and their power drops almost instantaneously.

I am not saying Geoff is a bad writer as I enjoyed both books mentioned but he seems to like taking Clark's powers away as quickly as he can once off earth.

(Odd this did not happen in Superman: Brainiac .)

in krypton returns storyline he was on krypton which has a red sun and he was fine because of his solar battery and i am honest with you all i read the 43 issue and the moment i saw supes lost his powers i was "yeah again poor old supes" and i am even no fan of him so yeah this story arc is not his and i must agree in the whole justice league he is treated so badly i am not surprised if superman fans hate dc...

I think it was all made for convenience sake.

Lets look at past feats. While training in the Block, without any sunlight for 5 days he was able to bench press the mass of the Earth, and when he stopped, he was nowhere near being depleated. When he was able to exit the Black Hole he threw himself in together with Brainiac, he spent 2 months traveling through space. Of course in this case one could say "Well he had cosmic radiation" but if that was so, then it would also be applied on Apokolips.

I'm not a particular fan of the solar battery thing. But I'm not gonna go into it again. Safe to say that comparing past feats that far surpassed anything he was doing in Apokolips, and still he never got this weak. Now for the sole purpose of having Luthor drop him in the firepits, Johns made a rookie mistake. This sudden weakness was not necessary, while fighting Superman could've been hit hard and was forced to drop into the firepits, becoming this way transformed, without the need to use plot holes.

Further more. Fire isn't solar energy. I know people call stars huge balls of fire, but it's actually plasma, not fire. And the flames from the firepits were exactly that, fire. Not plasma.

A lot about this, making all justice league members into gods (except for Wonder Woman, seeing she's already one), is gonna generate a lot of plot holes. First it was Superman, now I want to see what plot hole Johns gonna create for the Flash, Cyborg, Aquaman, and Power Ring.

i buy justice league because of the awsome art and action

for me i went well to think every comic book series is another universe because otherwise there would just be too much plot holes

And the main problem is that he uses no reason for him becoming depowered, just for the need of having him become weaker.

Superman wasn't fighting for hours or days, he was just walking. If the firepits of Apokolips emitted a kind of red solar energy, then at least we could say there was a reason for him becoming weaker. Or if Luthor sister had shot him with kryptonite bullets so he arrived on Apokolips weakened.

But no. Johns went for the easy way out. Didn't care he was creating a major plot hole, and then as Luthor threw Superman into the firepits saying that they were solar energy.

And here we get a paradox. So Johns wants us to believe Superman was losing his powers because there was no sunlight, but a few pages after he's saying that the firepits are made of solar energy. The only clear statement one could say to Johns would be "WTF Johns! Get your facts straight."

But besides that, the transformation does look cool. And I'm hoping there's some major change on Superman power levels and the way they work. After all having a heat vision that's only black in color isn't a sign of great creativity. I do hope at least that's some other kind of energetic power.

Still I got to say, that Johns has shown a poor work when it comes to Superman. I'd even say it seems he has something against the character. Looking at the detail and care he took to give Bruce his godly powers and now looking at this poor work done with Superman. One can't stop but wonder if Johns has somekind of problem with Superman.

As I keep saying is that this might just be because he's no longer in our universe. He is now on Apokolips, who knows what other repercussions being in that atmosphere might do to him.

i think too that johns has something against superman...
first he gave him this monster heat vision so that he can depower him and now he depowers him again without explanation... seems that he is listening to that batman fanboys who never read a single superman comic

@truth_teller:

But that's just it. We've seen in previous Justice League issues, before the Forever Evil arc, that Cyborg had a kind of bug in his boom tube tech, and more than once the League saw themselves in Apokolips fighting for their lives.

Well, if Superman became useless the very moment he stepped on the planet, then I'm amazed he never got himself killed in one of those occasions.

Also, if DC is gonna stick to the solar battery thing, then do it correctly. A battery doesn't simply lose charge for no reason at all. There's always a reason. And for Superman to have the power levels he shows, then his body has to have a lot more energy stored in him, that humanity could spend in a hundred years. So where does the energy goes? Can you guess?

And now Johns simply comes out, needs Superman to fall into the firepits of Apokolips, to trigger the transformation, and he couldn't have done it in a better way?

I think we both can agree that it wouldn't take a genius to come up with a better story.

I haven't read the issue so I won't comment on that, but for those folks who think that Johns has a dislike or disinterest of the character of Superman, I'd advise you to give his pre-52 late 2000s work on Action Comics and Superman a read. Johns clearly has a great affection and grasp on the character of Superman - he knows what makes him tick and he's clearly a fan. Now maybe this issue has some poor storytelling decisions for Supes, but that's not the same thing as intentional bias by the writer.

Just some food for thought.

Thats just it. You never actually saw what happened on those trips.

Nah, you don't need to be a genius for a better story. All you need to do is sit back, relax and wait till you have all the info before jumping to conclusions. I read it and had no problems believing Superman could get depowered quickly. I just said to myself, oh yea, theyre in another dimension, theres no telling how it affects him. And boom, that was it. No other thinking neccessary, no conspiracy theory, no anger towards writers, nothing.

People really dont knoww how to write Clark..

@truth_teller: We have only what's come before as a base to go on which is contradictory to everything johns did. If you're making something new, elaborate on it, we're not meant to fill in the blanks for our own peace of mind. The line was clearly theres no sun here, and nothing else.

Lol didn't even realise that contradiction. Even the planetary science is off( Colossal difference between stars and planets, i mean we are geeks, indulge us :P) but that doesn't bother me.

Yes this.

Yeah this should be kept in mind. The sad part is, however, knowing John's love for the character and his understanding of him, then seeing the silly conveniences he's taken with him to further the story.

@ultimatesmfan: nothing in this story contradicted anything from the new 52 .

@truth_teller:

That's because you're going along for the ride, without a care in the world. Now if you were on the passenger seat, maybe you'd react differently.

The truth is, that Johns did a poor work, period. Even if they were there for days, which they were not. Still it doesn't explain for Superman sudden weakness.

By past accounts Superman has gone to Apokolips more than once, leaving out all that's previous New 52 of course. And he never had a problem apparently. And now because Johns needed a certain event to happen, now Superman has a problem.

Just think about for a second. Superman has been in Apokolips in the past more than once. And he never noticed that his powers were affected by that dimension. Are you really trying to make me believe that, has Johns would try to make you believe that?

No my friend there's a difference between a classical mistake or a overlap in judgment, and total outright plot convenience.

If you've been reading up on the stories of the New 52 you know that I'm not throwing sand in your face, but actually water. To remove the sand that Johns actually thrown.

But if you're okay with it. Then I'm okay that your okay.

@veshark:

People change with time.

And almost everything he's done in the New 52 leads me to say what I say.

In the past I'd never questioned Johns dedication to Superman character, but now. Now it isn't so much that he has a problem with the character, but more like he's sloppy writing him. Like the once passion he had has somehow been lost.

Which is a shame of course. Because when he wants to he can be one hell of a writer. He simply hasn't been that writer with Superman in the N52.

With regards to Apokolips maybe not but nothing's been established and we shouldn't need to make assumptions.....Oh i just remembered, Justice League Origins, first JL new 52 arc by Johns, Superman was taken to apokolips, kinda tortured by Desaad and Steppenwolf and then came back to earth and took on Darkseid head on. So what? Was batman carrying a mini yellow sun in his utility belt when he went to rescue him?

It's not a plot device that can be breezed over, it's why i brought it up.

Nah, its just that Im smart and know i dont have all the info yet and know that there is no contradiction because ive read all the issues. You say that he never had a problem before in apokolips as if they even talked about it which they didnt so thats a lie. they never mentioned anything about his health. So i know that it can easily be just the atmosphere. but if you wanna waste your time thinking its just bad writing then go ahead.

Exactly. Thats points for me not for you. He was being tortured. If the atmosphere were the same he would have regained his power after being knocked out by the omega beams but he didnt. instead he was tortured and saved by batman. Oh yea...thats what happened.

So he magically flies through the boom tube from Apokolips at Darkseid, hmm ok.

@heavenlydarkdragon

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong. I'm saying that before making any statements about a writer's 'dedication' to any particular character, one should take note of the difference between a poor storytelling decision and a writer outright having something against said character. Instead of "Geoff Johns hates Superman now", it could just as easily be a simple "Geoff Johns made an ill-advised plot choice with Supes here."

Like I said, I haven't read this issue and I'm not arguing the point. I'm just raising an issue I feel is worth considering.

he wasnt dead dude, he just wasnt at 100 percent. but hey look, i get it, you dont wanna understand. I get the story, you dont. You dont want to. so i cant help you much more. Nothing left to talk about in that case.

And this my friend is known as a plot hole. Also your atmosphere argument has absolutely nothing supporting it, if there was, this thread wouldn't exist. Your genius may be able to contemplate the future, i'm sorry mine can't

No its not. Its called a person with an agenda unable to get a grip on reality. You want to keep believing your little story so youre disregarding the truth. but hey, if you don't wanna listen to reason I cant help you either so theres nothing left for me to say to you.

You're claiming to get the story based of your own personal assumptions...Yup, nothing left to say.

Im not making any assumptions at all. Superman is no longer in his universe: True or False? Exactly.

I,'m beginning to think we're wasting our time here.

I don't know which more to throw to this guy, except "Go back and read it all back again. Because seriously you're forgetting things".

Honestly talking about dimensions affecting him or the atmosphere. Those are assumptions based on nothing but air, and wishful thinking.

At least we're supporting what we say on all New 52, not just now. By the way nice work remembering the first fight against Darkseid, I almost forgot he was taken to Apokolips and when he returned he came out flying full speed into Darkseid. If he had lost his powers, like Johns wants to makes us believe he would first need to step through the boom tube recharge with some sunlight and then started to punch Darkseid ugly face.

If Lex was using the kryptonite powered suit he mentioned on the issue before, then we could say "Superman is weak because one of the bullets broke the kryptonite shielding" but Lex clearly stated "It's because there's no sunlight here" and then proceeds to throwing Superman into flames that according to him are filled with solar energy.

So by all accounts if the firepits of Apokolips release solar energy then Superman should feel stronger there, not weaker. Because the planet atmosphere would be saturated with solar energy.

If you wish to continue this debate, be my guest. Personally I'm out. Nothing I say is gonna change his mind. So I quit.

@heavenlydarkdragon: Take a bow ;)

Ladies and gentlemen! Thank you and good night! Feel free to continue, i gots ta sleep.

@heavenlydarkdragon: I find it hard to think he has a problem with him as he seems to enjoy writing him both Pre 52 and now. But you are right I think this was lazy writing and they wanted to get Superman to that position where he would need to take a dip in a pit. (Even though in any other media I would say that is suicidal but I guess hellfire is solar compatible?)

I dread to think this becomes the big fix for the entire Darkseid war, new Superman form, rather than sundipped he has Hellfire mode? Darkflame? Darkstar? or just a way to get Superman evil for a bit and give Lex something to do while the rest of the JL gather around Batgod as they watch him sit in a chair.

I can't think a memorable moment with Superman in the new 52 JL (maybe in the end of the arcs). He always seems weakened or away, like he needs help.

not to super if your powers fade so fast. could never survive in space. I mean that is one of the defining awesome things about superman.

i don't know how much i can repeat myself and tell you but superman is an action character, who got the best love from non blood parents to show the best humanity has and he uses his powers to show others this hope but here johns destroys this hope and shows us that superman is a threat because of his powers and luthor has now a point that superman is dangerous and no human...if i would be a superman fan i would think johns is a luthor fan now and hates superman or doesn't understand who clark really is...johns is in charge of the justice league comic book series but superman doesn't shine the whole time... YES he HATES HIM! and i am not a superman fan...

I had a problem with this as well. You'd think that the guy who gave superman a new power(solar flare) which releases a great amount of energy that is stored up in his body would actually get this right.

I honestly don't know if he's got something against Superman. History tells us, that would be impossible, but most current writing from his part that involves Superman has been weak. It might just be that he's got other things on his mind. No one's perfect and I don't expect Johns to be. But reading this issue and comparing it to the previous one, add to that what's he's done in the New 52 that regards Superman and one can't be blamed for questioning his dedication.

Well. It is Apokolips. Everything about it is strange. Sure, in the past the firepits were just that, never affected Superman in this way, but that's where the New in the 52 enters. And we're talking about basically a planet, that if we take Johns move seriously, has a star inside it, or something similar. But it's Apokolips, Darkseid domain. If something was gonna turn Superman evil in mind and body it would be that planet. And it was just one firepit or hellpit if you prefer to call it that. Imagine if Superman traveled to that planet core? Move aside Anti-Monitor and Darkseid, there's a new more badass character than both of you XD

Has I mentioned before I just found it a poor work, to go and say "There's no sunlight here" when in the next pages it's said the firepits of Apokolips have solar energy in them.

Which if I was in Johns shoes. I wouldn't have made Superman weaker, but confused or uncomfortable. For example it could and should have gone this way:

Lex "Hey, care to slow down a bit, I was shot, remember!"

Supes "I got no time to play nurse with you Luthor. You can't keep up I'll leave you behind."

Lex (just stares at Superman)

Supes "What??"

Lex "Are you okay? You seem on edge. Even out of character."

Supes "Yeah. Sorry. Everytime I come to this place, my emotions get off-balance. Never understood why. Are you getting better?"

Lex "Yeah. My armor life support system is doing its job"

Then we get the chase, until they're over the firepits. Lex is about to get blown to bits Superman steps in. Gets thrown into the firepits. And comes out transformed.

And were we go. No plot holes. Nothing that would conflict with past comics of the N52.

Also different types of sunlight, even yellow have been shown to have different effects when the source is somewhat unnatural. I can remember two examples when the similar things happened.

1st - In the pre-N52 when Superman was taken to an alternate future, where the sun had been used has a sacrifice in a spell, and the world's greatest magicians reignited the sun using magic. Superman powers also changed. And became magic based.

2nd - In the N52 when the Greek god Apollo tried to destroy Superman using his sun powers, only to leave him so supercharged, Superman took him out with one move. Then sitting on the dark side of the moon, he began talking with Batman through the JL communicator, and it went something like this:

- "Clark are you okay. The sensors show you just flew 300 times around the Earth"

- "Yeah. I'm trying to burn off this excess of energy. Diana told you what happened?"

- "Yes. And she's worried about you."

- "I wish I could be with her, but I can't. Not like this. There's no telling what I could do if I lost control. I'll just have to wait it out and hope it passes."

- "Is it that bad?"

- "Quite the contrary. It just feels weird. It's like realizing all my life I've been a cup half-full."

And there's been other examples in the past. When the Cyborg Superman (pre-N52) tried to kill the recently resurrected Superman by using all the radiation of a big boulder of kryptonite, but the Eradicator stepped between the radiation and Superman, instantly recharging his powers and later, it made Superman powers grow increasingly more faster to the point Dr Hamilton theorized that because Superman had been exposed to a form of kryptonite he immediately gave the name of Kryptonite-X, Superman powers would grow ever more faster until Superman body couldn't hold that energy anymore.

We also have the example of the Anti-Sun. When Superman was exposed to its radiation his powers grew to unimaginable levels.

And when returning from one of his trips to the bottled city of Kandor, the energies of the portal that allowed him to enter and exit, somehow affected him and lead to his powers change from solar to energy based. When he had to use the containment suit.

So has you see. Superman and unusual forms of energy have a long history. All it lacks now, is Superman being exposed to the Speed Force, and the energies of the Source Wall.

@heavenlydarkdragon: I am impressed you sure know your stuff.

I liked your version of Superman perhaps being mentally probed by the planet more than just into the pit and turn evil. I believe somewhere it said Darkseid feeds psychically of negative emotions and as Apokolips is his home turf stands to reason the place is nothing but negativity. Which for someone like Superman could be a big deal as it could manifest itself into a whispering voice inside your head. Heck if I took it one step further could argue Darkseid himself is some what responsible for it.

I think you did mention how much of a cop out that is, again like you said if Clark mentioned he was feeling drained but also, something else it could lead up to his body absorbing something else which to him feels wrong but not much he can do about it. Rather than suddenly complain he is not absorbing sunlight when apparently he could/should.

I really hope Superman does not go evil (AGAIN) it is just such a done thing at this stage and really is only ever used to let another character knock him around rather than show what an evil Superman would be like, as you said "Watch out everyone!"

@titanbreaker:

Yeah. I doubt he'll go full evil or really evil. Just extremely on edge. Maybe with the patience of the Hulk lol

Like you said. Done and done. We don't need another Injustice. But a Superman that likes to punch first and ask questions later, wouldn't be so bad.

Oh! And we know he's not gonna become sooo evil has it might seem.

Remember the beginning of this arc? Or was it the preview... hmm... One of those. We got shots with various scenes. Two of those were, Superman being kind of devored by a white light, and Lex holding pieces of Superman cape and screaming "Superman where are you?". So Lex screaming for Superman, my biggest hint he's not gonna go Injustice, but most likely more in everyone's face, and with willingness to destroy his enemies that might rival that of Darkseid.

Well see.