Problems with Superman's journey to Earth

You are not being attacked for having an opinion. You are being attacked (very mildly, I might add) because you decided that since your opinion is such and such, then what happens in the comic book doesn't make sense. It's like saying that you don't like Saruman being able to control the weather, so the scene of the snow-storm in the first movie of Lord of the Rings doesn't make sense because it would require more than speaking magical words to affect atmospheric conditions. It is just that.

This conversation is dragging because we are trying to explain that there is a difference between your own personal opinion and an internal logic contradiction, and you seem unable to separate the two. I think some of the forum users, including myself, have a good grasp on physics (I am a bio-physicist, for example). The fact that comic books make sci-fi assumptions is a given... I mean, with you reasoning you could attack Aliens, 2001 A space Odissey and Blade Runner.

There are a lot of inconsistencies in Superman comic-books, no doubt, but you can't decide that the sci-fi assumptions you pers nally don't like don't work in a story.

Magic is something completely different, it is a supernatural power, it has nothing to do with physics. Magic can not and must not be explained. The universe in the comics is the same as ours. Also, the physical laws are the same. But as I wrote, it's all about making something more believable.

Why the filmmakers have added genetics and nanotechnology to the Hulk story? Why genetic engineering played a role in the Spider Man movie? According to the first Hulk comic only gamma radiation was the reason for Banner transformation. Later it was a super-soldier serum (as in The Incredible Hulk movie). Iron Man was also changed. Why? You know the answer. If everything works as good as you said, then why all these drastic changes? The comic fans would hate the comic book authors, because how do they come up with the stupid idea to replace them with new-fangled science fiction, based on modern science? But no, the fans are excited about all these innovations. No one says: "Oh no, that's not necessary, these new ideas do not make sense." For people like me it's different. About me they say: "Come on, it's a comic." "The Kryptonian have an advanced technology." "In the comic world, everything works". "To add science and fiction is nonsense." Since 1938, changes are made. But if I suggest a single change, then I'm talking nonsense. Something is wrong here.

@zardu: I don't agree with you and I think your views are a little biased by... I don't know what. You constantly change your main point and you debate by building straw-men arguments (if you know what that means). I have stuff to reply, but if the past is any indication, you are not inclined to actually discuss. Since you don't want to discuss, I'm going to drop this...

I'm not that passionate about this and of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if it is that a whole generation of comic book readers is made up of mainly idiots. As I said, to each his own.

I never changed my main point. Is it forbidden to respond to an example that has nothing to do with the topic? Saruman's magic and physics? And when one accuse me that I am proposing changes that do not make sense, but 75 years changes in comics make sense, then I may mention this contradiction. Straw-men arguments? I call it arguments.

Accusations and insinuations are unsuited for an objective discussion. So, I support your decision.

@zardu: As usual you cherry within my answers just the stuff that made me seem incoherent. My point. I'll see what other people have to say. Bye.

I am not even sure what's happening here anymore. Opinions are set in stone, and no one will budge lol. The op should have just pasted their opinion and locked it so people can read it but not disagree.

@lvenger: Another solution. Jor-El built a very very very very very very very very fast ship.

Of course things will change over time - if the character had remained unchanged, he wouldn't have been around for 75 years - it's a process of evolution within the stories and the character that allows him (and many others) to survive.

As to why they change certain things specifically - you'd have to ask the writer that decided to make that change. Start with John Byrnes - he's responsible for the current Superman canon prior to the New 52 reboot which is where most peoples ideas about Superman come from. Do they change things to reflect current scientific understanding? Yes - but that doesn't mean EVERYTHING has to reflect scientific accuracy. FTL travel and wormholes are both popular concepts in science-fiction - as @matteopg said - within your logic many works of fiction then should be the focus of your questioning. Hell - maybe they can use a similar idea to Stargate if they want - beauty of fiction is they really can do whatever they want. As it's been said - your opinion is that wormholes are unrealistic, cool - others disagree. There's no discussion here simply because you're forcing real world science onto the explanation you don't like, instead of accepting "it's fiction". Superman isn't the only one either - this has to be applied to all comic book characters. Read the comics - don't just glean information from wiki pages, then maybe you might change your mind. (I say this because you already said you don't read comics - apologies if I misunderstand).

@wishiwassuperman: There, this guys said it even better. We are sorry if you don't like wormholes, but those aren't weaknesses in the story, it's just something you don't like. The right expression whisiwassuperman (cool nickname btw) used was that you are "forcing" real life science into comic books: by that logic he couldn't fly, and flash couldn't go as fast as he goes.

My main issue was that you tried to pass on your pesonal dislikes as objective points about the story quality. But if we can agree that you don't like wormholes ergo you don't like Superman's premise, we're honky dory.

A more "objective" discussion would be what are they using to create the wormhole, escape it, etc... Any explanation of any of the scenarios you presented will be rife with us making stuff up, and maybe at some stage the comic writers will provide their own explanation. Maybe we could put forth ideas of how it could work in each?

Nice observation.

Agreed, let us begin ...

Wormhole

The natural end of stars is in the form of gigantic implosions. Depending on the size there are various doomsday scenarios for the matter of the star. The gravitational pressure increases: electrons are brought out of their orbitals and atomic nuclei are fused. In short: A black hole is formed when matter exceeds a certain density. The size below which an object turn into a black hole is called the Schwarzschild radius. It depends on the mass of the object. The general theory of relativity states that massive objects warp the space around them through their gravitational field. In its center is a singularity, a point of infinite density and gravity.

A black hole is shaped like a funnel. The lower end of the funnel forms the event horizon. Underneath it goes much deeper down - an infinitely deep tunnel leading directly into the singularity at the center of the black hole. Anything near a black hole is sucked and can not escape (even light).

The sun

Mass: 1.9891×10³⁰ kg = 2 million sextillion tons or 2,184,759000000000000000000000 t

Size: 333,000 × Earth

In order to form a black hole, it takes more than 3 solar masses; let´s take 4 solar masses:

4 x 2 million sextillion tons = 8 million sextillion tons or 8,739,036000000000000000000000 t

In order to form a wormhole it takes two black holes:

2 × 8,739,036000000000000000000000 t = 17,478,072000000000000000000000 t

A spaceship the size of a small car must bear in itself a mass of approximately 17 million sextillion tons. In addition, first it must send this mass about 50 light years, so that it forms a black hole (because if it first forms a black hole in the vicinity of Krypton, it is sucked). Then it must produce a second black hole in its vicinity, so that this black hole connects to the other black hole to form a wormhole. The smallest known black hole in the universe measuring just 24 kilometers in diameter and it has a weight of about 4 solar masses. Are two such black holes enough to form a wormhole which is about 50 light years long? If not, then both must have gigantic dimensions that are so massiv that they exceed the size of the solar system of Krypton.

Questions

1. A black hole sucks inward. If hole A and hole B sucked inward, how can the spaceship come out from hole B?

2. Suppose that the spacecraft can come out of hole B. How can the spaceship stop or slow down at superluminal speed?

3. How can a black hole be formed independently from the spacecraft at a distance of about 50 light years?

4. How can the spaceship send the mass for the black hole at superluminal speed to about 50 light years?

5. How can the spaceship prevent that the superluminal mass does not collide with matter in the universe?

6. Each battery has a limited storage capacity. The same applies for all other vessels. Atoms have weight. When atoms are pressed together under high pressure, they merge. This is called nuclear fusion. The sun should generate its energy through nuclear fusion. This results in temperatures up to 200 million degrees. Think about the approximately 17 million sextillion tons of mass. Energy and mass are inseparable. How can the spaceship store the vast masses of the black holes without burning or weigh too much?

7. The spaceship was built on the planet Krypton. How could the spaceship with a weight of 17 million sextillion tons of mass fly into space?

8. According to science, a black hole exists for several billion years. How can the spaceship deactivate the wormhole?

I tried to find an explanation for the creation of a worm hole. Unfortunately I have not found, even with the assumption that the Kryptonians possess advanced technologies. The whole thing is just too unbelievable, as that one could provide a plausible explanation. My own opinion is not based on the inability to discuss or to disregard the opinions of others. It's all about credibility of the fictional world. The fictional world has the same universe and the same physical laws. It uses elements such as worm holes, derived from modern science. But even the modern astrophysics is largely based on imagination and assumptions. Black holes are unproven objects, more fantasy than theory. One could even say: Black holes do not even work in the real world. But that is a matter of opinion and not the subject of this thread. The argument: To connect fiction with modern physics makes no sense is not entirely correct. This is about wormholes (astrophysical elements) and not about invented/fictional energies. There is an scientific or fictional explanation for almost everything: Superman can fly, because he can affect gravitons or because he can use the space energy structure ect. It is far-fetched, but more believable than other things.

Do you have an explanation for the creation of a wormhole?

PS: Sorry if my english is faulty, I´m german.

Well, that the wormhole is a connection between two black holes is debatable. A wormhole is a theoretical feature of space-time. In theory it can be formed by any gravitational singularity that bends the infinite tunnel of space time that forms at one end. We could posit, going further back in our assumptions, that Kryptonian technology can induce such a bend without forming a persisting gravitational anomaly.

Also I think you meant that wormholes have not been observed. Black holes have. But that's ok, you wrote a lot.

How does Superman affect gravitons, then?

The origin of a wormhole is irrelevant. Mass curves space-time. And mass is the biggest problem. In addition, a wormhole has an entrance and an exit. The entrance must suck.

@zardu: are you sure? Oh well, I'm not a physicist. But be careful, there's a difference between mass and gravity, and this is science fiction, you don't know what they might have to circumvent the problem of creating gravity without mass. For example, in my lab, we can exert controlled force on small objects without applying any mechanical perturbation.

Also, I didn't know about Superman manipulating gravitons. How would he do that?

Mass and gravitation are two different terms, but in astrophysics, they are interconnected. According to Einstein, mass affects space and space affects mass. Therefore, they are inseparable.

A wormhole is a structure which has an enormous suction. This force exceeds any other force in the universe. To generate such an amount of force, it requires enormous energy and mass as well, because without mass, no gravitation. Planets bend the space because they have a lot of mass; the more mass, the greater the bending. The earth bends space and the moon revolves around the earth. The sun bends space and all the planets revolve around the sun, because the Sun is the biggest celestial body with the largest mass. So one need tremendous amounts of mass to cause space bending. It's all about atoms and elementary particles. The more atoms and particles (in the right grouping/structure), the greater the mass.

The force in your lab is not gravity. But I know what you mean.

Superman could generate a physical force inside his body that affect the gravitons. I don´t like this explanation, but it´s O.K. I prefer the structured space energy.

Wormholes are the only science fiction elements that you can not explain plausible. This is the reason why I think they are unbelievable.

PS: Gravity and gravitation is not the same. Gravity is the force that keeps us on Earth. Gravitation is the force in space that moves planets.

If there were wormholes that have always been there, which consist of an unknown matter and in which one enters the front and walked out again immediately at the other end (like a door), then the problem would be solved.

But, well: that's the crazy world of comics ... it´s not my fault :-)