New comics by Neil Adams and Max Landis

Neil Adams: The coming of the Supermen

Adams said his six-issue miniseries will feature “all of Jack Kirby’s characters fighting Superman; beginning with Kalibak.” He concluded saying that "someone's stolen Superman's blood," to nefarious purpose.

Max Landis: Superman: American Alien

No further info yet. I imagine a twelve part mini about how generic Superman is :P

UGGGHHHH now these announcements do not fill with excitement or optimism, cautious or otherwise. Batman: Odyssey was quite a mess from what I hear, and I don't know if Adams can write Superman as well as I can draw him. As for Landis, I detest his opinion and outlook on Superman, he does not get the character nearly as well as people think he does. His Adventures of Superman one shot proved that unquestionably.

Odyssey was awful from what I hear too, but at least we will get some nice Adams Superman art.

I hope Landis will take Superman seriously this time and stop "paroding" him, it becomes tiring quickly.

I doubt it, his ideas for the New 52 Doomsday story were distressing for me as a Superman fan. Considering how this series is going into the gritty and edgy territory, I expect more reduxes of what Landis covered in his Chronicles script, which does not fit for Superman.

I think there will be gritty moments, but this is a pre-powers, very young Clark so I think the context might fit Clark entering a fist fight and seeing he shouldn't because of his powers etc

The story also promises heartwarming and humorous moments.

But I don't disagree, I don't have any trust in Landis either. I just try to be objective and find a glimer of hope in the endless stream of mediocre-ness.

I don't necessarily have a problem with that example, just how Landis will execute it. He had Superman act like a smug condescending douche to the Joker in his Adventures of Superman one shot, that kind of characterisation is sorely not what I look for in my Superman characterisation.

With the news we've heard in a few hours, I understand your position, I'm doing the same with Jurgen' new series.

I really think his AoS one shot, was very weird rather than bad. It was a parody of Superman but when all you do is parodying the "magic" disappears. I think he tried to be funny and build on his "The Death of Superman" success. He didn't succeded because that wasn't a youtube video, it was a full realized story.

As I said in the other thread, Jurgens hasn't been relevant for years, this is his chance to change that. His story has potential, the art is good. He must give his all. He can't cling on his 90s success anymore.

His idea for his real take on Superman isn't much better, have you seen the video where he discusses his plans for a New 52 Doomsday event? I was left feeling glad we got Doomed, which was a bad and plodding event comic, rather than what Landis proposed.

I agree, I really want him to surprise us all, but I can't shake my doubts that this could go badly wrong and damage the Pre New 52 Superman's rep more than save it. Hopefully Jurgens can grow out of his 90s nostalgia and into the 21st Century.

Yeah, I don't remember something bad when it comes to Superman, I just remember the overabundance of blood and gore and the fan-fic feeling it left me with.

I don't think it will damage anything because Jurgens in never actually bad...just forgetable. At worst this story will be forgotten.

I'll check out the Neal Adams stuff, if only for the art.

I confused Neil Adams with Neil Gaiman...

Now I want Neil Gaiman to do Superman, just for curiosity.

He did a Superman Green Lantern team up.

No wonder Superman comics struggle. All you people do is complain about stuff before it even comes out. It's Superman...the greatest hero every. Give it a try before you condemn it.

People are welcome to share their opinion IN A FORUM, especially when their opinion is based on past successes or failures.

And in this case, both Landis and Adams have more misses than hits and make people skeptical. If it turns out good, GREAT! But better be skeptical rather than excited only to be disappointed.

People can improve upon previous works. It's a new story, can't we just be excited there is another Superman book(x2)? People who post on forums play a part in a book's success whether they think so or not. If you want more Superman books, there need to be more successes. I just feel if someone is looking into getting into Superman checks out a forum and sees all this negativity it hurts everyone.

I want Supes to be back in the top 10 every month like Batman, but it won't happen when everything announced is met with this negativity.

@allend4bbt: Pretty much the biggest problem with most P-N52 Superman fans: they dont want Superman to have any range as a character.

They want the same stories told over, and over, and over again with a different back drop. The biggest criticism they have "Truth" is that it's different.

I, for one, am excited to see Landis' take on Superman.

And? Considering the book hasn't come out you are judging based on previous work. It is a valid expression.

People who just want to check Superman don't wander in a thread blindly. I have been in the forums enough to know that. There is a pattern in the forums. There is a reason we have like 100 "where to start threads".

The successes don't come if people praise the book before it is out but after! For example most of Marvel's latest decisions are vastly criticized but the ones that end up being good books they are successes either way.

If you think 50 people on the internet are what keep Superman out of the top 10, you are kidding yourself.

@superguy1591 said:

How do you always manage to turn it into P-N52 fans problems :P.

Seriously dude, it is annoying.

@squalleon: Look, man, whenever I'm criticizing P-N52 fans, I'm always sure to put "SOME" in there because I know you've been fair and willing to give the N52 a shot, but the loudest detractors of the anything that isn't PC Superman has been that group.

Whether you want to admit it or not, some people just don't want Superman to have range as a character.

Its silly that you always put banners that all. And I disagree. It is that they are P-52 fans that make them "detractors", it is that they are long time fans as opposed to the new 52 fans, that makes them have different standards. It is logical that the longer you read the more high your standards became. Those same fans, praised Mastermen an alternate take on Superman or some of them Earth One and most of them Johns and Pak(I am sure all did in Pak's first arc). It is a matter of standards. The more you read the more you see that ideas are recycled and the more you expect more. Also the more you read the more you became cynical about mainstream comics because of above reasons.

Also lets not forget that those fans are partly right. Everyone attacks Superman fans for not getting along. But considering new versions of the character spawns with the months, it is logical that people will enter the fanbase from different stories. As opposed for example to Batman who has been one of the most consistent characters. Even in his elseworlds he is pretty much the same personality wise. So batman fans can enjoy ANY Batman story. That ISN'T the case with Superman. So these fans who have spend years with the character and the character constantly keeps change, new version spawn but none of this is the Superman they grew up with, I get them.
Also that lack of uniformity between Supermen, is why Superman can't find a stable fanbase either.

...that's how i feel too about this matter, and this isn't even the most negative site on the internet : you should see (not really) the Superman Homepage fan site.

@squalleon: I'll say it again: we don't get along because of the usual suspects on this board.

Truth is announced and the same people complain before a single book has been released.

In contrast: Lois and Clark is announced and no one protests, except, ironically, from the usuals. When a N52 concept is introduced, it's "a gimmick," when a PC concept is introduced it's good.

It's not really understanding quality, you can't know the quality of a book you haven't read--like some people and Truth...still.

You completely ignoring anything I said and you start writing your casual silly claims. And even those are wrong cause most "Pre 52" fans show little to any excitement about Lois and Clark. Check the comicvine article and you will see that even the most hardcore fans like Lvenger aren't excited or praise it blindly.

You are acting silly here. Biased hate.

No but you don't have to be excited about a story from a writer who sees Superman as a way to gain controversy. Read his two parter on AoS you will see why people aren't excited about Landis.

And "Truth" has been sub-par to meh. Sm/Ww and B/S were awful, with Superman being meh and Action being the casually overrated, because of the great art. Action is the epitome of how good art hides a meh story. Action has been two issues in in truth and it barely has evolved the plot or showed us anything, the police interactions come out forced and if you say it is because we haven't read the beginning of Truth, then Pak shouldn't have acted that you can understand every story on its own.

@squalleon: Oh, I know they complained, and I'm not surprise they did. Hope DC learns that there's no pleasing them and they finally stop trying.

They gave them an entire event and a new comic series, but it's not enough. And I disagree, Action was good, as was SM/WW and Superman. They're weren't meant to be grand issues, just world building.

See now you are contradicting your previous post, just to hate. You don't have a coherent argument. For you the ones that don't agree with you are Pre-52 fanboys that hate anything n52 and want to burn the New 52 Superman down!

There was barely any world building in Action that was the main criticism from many. Sm/Ww was awful there is no denying that, but I guess you will say I am a Lois/Clark shipper that's why I say that, even if I point out the plot-holes, mishandling of Wonder Woman and overall boringness and exposition. And Superman got meh reviews and for a good reason. AND don't forget I never said anything bad about GYL, I was actually stocked for his story, even after I learned about Truth.

Maybe except Action which I feel is overrated as hell, that's why I give it a hard time, the others I believe I am completely objective with and I don't have any criticism I think isn't valid. I was one of the biggest supporters of Tomasi when he entered Sm/Ww and I was and am a fan of Yang and JRJR. But the result is meh.

@squalleon:

I didn't change my argument; if you're confused by me saying "no one complained," I meant the N52 fans didn't complain. I saw that this ongoing was introduced, I wasn't interested and I didn't complain about DC starting it. I N52 comics to enjoy and I know that some people like that version of the character.

Really? Action has been racking good reviews after good reviews and Gene's 41 also got most.y favorable numbers: http://comicbookroundup.com/comic-books/reviews/dc-comics/superman-(2011)/41

Superman and Wonder Woman got flack because "it's a team up book that mostly focused on Superman," even though it's a Superman event and B/S41 was no different. I liked SM/(hopefully Maxima from the PC universe since that universe is canon again) written by Tomasi and I hope DC keeps it going.

@squalleon: And Morrison's Action run is overrated by some of you on these boards. His entire run was "meh" around the Internet and I stand by what I said about it being and incomplete run that rushed through points that he could've fleshed out but left out.

Pak can go back all he wants because Morrison, if he bothered to touch on thone topics, barely did anything with them.

Υοu hate Morrison overall so I am gonna pass on that. And all agree that it is a personal preference that we like it so much and we clearly see his flaws. As opposed to how things are with Pak, which anything he does all praise it blindly.

Who are the usuals? Is @sog7dc a usual? Who has been a supporter of anything New 52 and even MoS who you thing P52 fans hate with passion, Is @kidchipotle who doesn't like almost anything New 52 and yet you don't see him, complaining at all. Any pre-52 fan was luck warm with some not even caring, no one complained or started flame wars and overreacted. AND OF COURSE N52 fans didn't complain, they entered the frame with the n52 and that title doesn't affect anything done in the other titles. And N52 Fans complained heavily with Convergence and the thought of P52 Superman returning. Also some N52 fans did complain because of Lois and Clark.

The only comicbook site reviews I agree with is Comicbookresourses. And that gave every truth issue except AC 41 a mediocre score, which I agree, I personally would give Ac 41 a 3.5/5. See the reviews in non-comicbook sites even Pak's first arc collected gets a meh rating. As for Gene's first issue, the reviews were very generous. Hell, JLA issue 2 got an average around 8!

Also don't look only the ratings but the context. Horrorville got a great rating as a whole and yet it has fundamental holes. Also I admit I am harsh to AC because I feel it is like Snyder's Batman...overrated.

Sm/Ww had plot holes and boring exposition through out. And yes a team book focused sole on Superman is a sin no matter how you look at it, it doesn't matter that it is a part of an event. Especially in how tastelessly WW was used in that issue.

@squalleon: I don't hate Morrison--don't go with the easy way out. I don't understand his work, but I don't have an opinion on him.

You know who the usuals are--the Batman fan who hates Truth because he wants Superman with Lois just because he thinks that frees up Diana for Batman--I don't know his name--amongst others, but you pointing out P-N52 fans who don't complain doesn't make what I said less true. I said that SOME P-N52 fans just like to complain, I didn't say all, or most, or the majority--I said some.

As "Truth" is concerned: we can just chuck it up to preference.

Nope, you clearly have a dislike of him and you always mention it in his works. And you even didn't like All Star Superman. So you aren't exactly objective with him.

I don't know who are the usual really, I am not kidding, I don't! And by what you said, that guy isn't a P52 fan but a Bat-fanboy who tries to hide his shipper identity by misdirecting it as love for "Clois". And who are the ones left? Only me and @lvenger and I don't even consider myself a P52 fan, but a Superman fan. If you mean me, then you will see that my only comment on the initinal article was "Pass on both, wait for reviews" and then I just joked about Landis in this thread, hell I even "defended" the guy in a discussion with Lvenger, in this thread. If you only mean Lvenger and that guy, then it is a personal attack and you are putting a huge amount of fans in a small basket based on your dislike of two or three fans! Which frankly is what makes me most angry.

And by the same standard, I could say all N52 fans are the same based on the few extremes that come to mind instantly.

And you never say some fans but even in this thread in your initial comment you said "most" or leave it as P52 fans! It just unfair to put in the same basket a variety of fans based on your prejudice or hate for two or three instances.

Agreed. I don't care for this discussion really, I will let history do it for me :P

@squalleon: But why would I hate Grant Morrison? Outside of All-Star and his N52 Superman run, and Final Crisis, I haven't read much of Morrison. Plus, Morrison was going to nix Lois and Clark in the 90s, so why exactly do I not like Morrison, before we get to hate?

Honestly, I don't want to invite anyone else because I have no interest in talking with P-N52 fans, and, no, I don't consider you as a part of the people who whine since most of our disagreements end in "different tastes" and we move on. So, bring it down, I'm not going to call them in here.

What extremes?

And I guess I did, but it doesn't change my opinion: they just like to whine. Even if Post-Crisis Superman comes back to the main universe and N52 Superman is gone but DC just alters his outfit and remove the trunks, the usuals will complain that it's still "not Superman."

Compared to the Superman DC, and Morrison, put out in the first issues of the N52, the N52 Superman has been molded to incorporate elements of the PC Superman, but people still complain. He's barely even brash anymore.

I don't know. You don't have to hate him but I truly think you aren't objective with him. And you said you don't like Morrison in some threads, so If I am not objective because I like his run too much (and I admit it), then you aren't too.

I feel you don't have anyone to call, you blindly label people. And I bet half of them aren't gonna be even "Pre52" fans. And again, one or two extremes aren't an objective target group to show the quality pre-52 fans have.

Since you don't call names, why should I?

I disagree, all P52 fans accepted him as who he was even with the BLACK costume he wears in the upcoming title. Check the page. the few complains are about the writer nothing about the looks! Even from the most hardcore fans.

Morrison never meant for New 52 Superman to be brash. It was meant as a character evolution in his book and at the end of the 5 year timeskip Superman would return to the calm, collected icon.
And there is reasons, Lobdell's Superman was an ...hole and Pak's has been a mess, not only characterization wise but because of how the plots revolve around the same trite that everything is "Superman's fault", under Pak Superman has destroyed a world, he has destroyed property as Superdoomsday, killed Lana's parents and in Horrorville he is the reason people are dying in Smallville, oh also he is the reason people are getting beaten up in Truth, the reason people died because of "Superman's Joker" and the reason people will die in the upcoming arcs I am sure :P Pak has been running the same cliche over and over (I guess to make every threat more personal) and remember the tower command hates Superman because " he does more harm than good". I guess Pak just tries to prove them right! At the end of the day, if you look at the big picture and you haven't the memory of a goldfish, Pak's Superman isn't compelling because the hero isn't compelling. And some "emotional" scenes here and there can't hide it from all of us. The word "Screwupman" exist for a reason.

I can't speak of Neil Adams but Landis worries me.

@squalleon:

I don't like Morrison's work, yes, because I don' get it. It's nothing against Morrison as a person, I just don't get his work. I'm not going to act like I love him just because other people rate him highly. In fact, I've openly stated that I probably don't get Morrison because I'm not smart enough to comprehend it.

It's too bad they preface their arguments with: "DC ruined Superman, when is the 'real Superman' coming back?" or I might believe that they're not P-N52 fans. Plus, even that Batman fan who wants Diana with Bruce, wants the PC Superman back because that is the Superman who "knows who his true love is."

I also would call PC Superman fans fans who love quality when PC Superman didn't have a quality story from 2006-2011 that wasnt an origin or elseworld.

Honestly, I really don't remember Morrison's run to argue it. I really didn't enjoy it, so I'll just say you were right. As far as Pak's "screwupman," it doesn't make sense. None of what has happened in Pak's run has been his fault. Clark has shoulderEd the burden of not being able to be the person he wants himself to be--a perfect man, a SUPERman, if you will--and blames himself for coming up short, but none of it is his fault.

Superman didn't destroy a world, the world was genocidal! They were killing innocent animals just to keep their "world" going, but that's not right. Sure, PC Superman would've brokered a peace talk or something boring, but N52 Superman did the right thing. He saved innocent lives, which is what Superman does--he saves lives. If your civilization needs to kill innocent animals to survive your civilization can either choose to come out into the sun or perish down there.

I wish Pak had fleshed out Subterania more, but it is what it is.

Im not even going to touch you saying that Superman inadvertently destroyed buildings while he was mind-controlled, that's too silly for me to touch.

He he didn't kill Lana's parents--Brainiac did. Lana blames him because "he's Superman" and Superman saves everyone, but blaming Superman for his villains actions is very silly since the world would be worst off without him. Especially the "Superman's Joker" arc: Batman has, well, the ACTUAL Joker, but no one blames him for the deaths the Joker causes. People say that he's irressponsible for not taking care of him, but no one blames Batman directly

As far as Truth is concerned, those people are being beaten because the cop is crooked. He's JEALOUS of Superman, not because Superman is hiding behind civilians. He wants Superman to attack him and he knows that the best way to do that is to attack the thing Superman loves most--innocent people.

Pak has been doing his best Alan Moore imitation by breaking down Superman and try to tell stories about the man, not the idol. And I've said it a thousand time: once he's done breaking him down he'll build him back up. I actually believe that Truth is where Pak goes from break down to build up.

Again, which ones? Two maybe three extremes? And that Batman fan is just hiding his shipper identity behind a fake love for that characters incarnation. I can say the same thing about New 52 extremes! I can easily find three or four New 52 fans that are aggressive towards anything P52 without reason and complain in every p52 thread.

Are you serious? Up,Up and away, Last Son, Brainiac, Legion of Super-heroes, Camelot falls! Half of Superman's best stories in every top Superman list come from this period. And all fans agree that Grounded and New Krypton were mostly shit.

I will stop the convo about Pak here because frankly your comment is too long and I don't care for reading it. No matter the intention the result is the same Superman DOES more harm than good in Pak's stories, for every good intention he has he creates a bigger problem. Be it Ultra HUmanite, be it Superdoomsday it doesn't matter. Also I feel we must say this, WE ARE killing innocent animals to keep ourselves alive, why Superman doesn't have a problem with that? Superman doesn't have to be a naive idiot like Pak makes him. Superman doomed an underground civilization without giving them an alternative.
Also Batman is BATMAN, it is a major part of his character about how much good he does and if he creates the monsters he fights. Superman isn't like that. I wonder how you can possibly say that. Lana is just another instance of Pak making Superman look bad, since Brainiac returned for Superman. You do more harm than good, that's Pak's main element in his stories and he does prove them right. In Pak's AC, Superman IS making more harm than good, unintentionally of course. But he does. That's why he isn't compelling.
And Alan Moore never forgot he has an idol in front of him, not only a man. His Superman was inspiring, in the end of WhttMoT and in the Swamp Thing team up. Pak just doesn't have the TALENT to do anything remotely as good or balanced.

@squalleon: Name these fans..

And I tried to time Geoff's departure, but I probably should've looked it up. I should've just said since Geoff left it wasn't any good. As far as Camelot Falls: I heard it wasn't any good or that it was just okay from guys who love PC Superman. I've never heard of Up, Up and Away, but reading the premise, it sounds like a story where Superman lost his powers, but did the people who complained about Truth complain then? Anyway, I made a mistake, you can push my date up to 2007-2011

Alan Moore's Superman ended the Silver Age killing Myxy and then faking his own death to be with Lois. How is that less morbid than anything Pak has done? Superman is literarily blaming himself for saving the world.

FTMWHE is Moore literarily saying being Superman is a burden to Kal and that he would love nothing more than to give it up and live a normal life, but he knows he has responsibilities.

Is Pak as good as Moore? Heavens no, but that's not exactly an insult. Pak's Superman is a hero; he's always chooses to do the right thing and he stands for everyone. Comparing us, who kill animals for sustenance and for life, to Subterraneans, who COULD live up on the surface but choose to kill innocent animals for no real reason is an apples-to-oranges comparasion.

You're such a Marvel World civilian.

No. Again, why should I when you speak only in generics.

Camelot Falls was great by any fans standards. An ambitious tale and one of the better takes of "Must there be a Superman". There is a reason it is in most top lists. It is vastly underrated and lately fans have started to re-examine it and articles pop all over the place. Nope, because Up Up and Away was done with taste. Truth is tasteless.

Nice, now push that date again to 2010 because that's when Johns finished his run.

And? He was still iconic and the stories were done with taste. Superman filled both sides of his name.

No, it isn't. Superman destroyed a world because of an inane decision. He didn't give an alternative and doomed a civilization based on a rushed decision who costed more lives than saved AND like that Pak's run begins, with Superman either creating his villains or making things worse(even the people of Smallville(!) agree with me). That's Pak's Superman in a nutshell.

This is such a lame insult.

@squalleon:

Then we can drop it.

Meh, I can take a look at it, but Camelot Falls isn't considered a good story by most fans I've talked to. I'll also read up on Up, Up and Away too. And, what exactly made "Up, Up and away" so "tasteful" compared to "Truth?"

2010 is when Geoff did Secret Origins, right? If so: no, we can keep it at 2007. Maybe it's because I thought Birthright was the best Superman origin, but I thought Secret Origins was uninspired. I like Geoff, probably my favorite writer today, but his uninspired works never rate high for me.

Maybe it's because I didn't read Moore's Swamp Thing run, but the two Superman stories I have read from Moore did not have an overly heroic Superman by your standards. Everyone that died in the Silver Age conclusion died because they knew Superman. =) Every single one of them, even Lex.

As far as Superman "creating" his villains: Luthor in the Silver Age? Metallo under Geoff Johns? Kryptonite-Man under Morrison? It's a common thing in comics for heroes to create their villains so that the stories are more connected and personal for the hero. As far as Subterrenia: I wish Pak fleshed it out more sooner, but the Beast Master only said the his world was dying, not that it's already dead. Like I said: Pak's probably going to build him up after "Truth," but he's done his best to deconstruct a larger than life hero and introduce some conflict and doubt into him.

It wasn't an insult--it was a just an observation of you blaming the hero for the actions of the villains.

@superguy1591:

Τhen drop insulting a whole range of fans too. It is silly.

I don't care to diss Truth again. I just don't. Go back to previous post and threads that I have talked on the matter.

In 2008 alone he finished Brainiac. And because you didn't like SO doesn't mean others didn't. SO is in most top Superman stories lists, so no we keep it in 2010.

He had a balanced Superman. His Superman was a larger than life hero with human problems. Not a human with powers. And yes people did die because they knew Superman but they died because they wanted to help, not because of Superman's inane decisions, Jimmy and Lana died because they tried to fight the villains alone (their fault), while Lex died because he tried to find Brainiac and "use" him and again lets say you are right, that was one instance on the last story of Superman, that was meant as an epilogue that in the end cost Superman's own life! With Pak is literally every second story he writes and not even in half the quality. Don't try to twist it, it isn't the same.

You try to grasp the concept but you always lose it. It isn't a matter if it happens but HOW frequently under the same writer. You mentioned two examples that are 50 years apart! And Kryptonite Man is different since he was used by Lex. Lex just knew who to use. But anyway it isn't that it happens, but the frequency it does under Pak. Ghost Soldier,Tower Command, "Senator Lane", Ukur, Ultra-humanite, Superman's Joker, probably the Truth villain. All of Pak's arcs go for a personal threat, but that results in a cacophony of heroship.
You also said you see it return after Horrorville (in past threads), did it? And a dying world is much better than dead? Thank god Superman didn't do a good job then and the Subterranian people managed to live a few months more.
He does only that. He only adds guilt with no pay-off since Tower Command! Even in Horrorville the end was "lets get through the day" FROM SUPERMAN, the man of tomorrow, the eternal optimist! There isn't any character evolution.

I blame the writer who writes the most iconic hero as someone who brings more hurt than good. And Pak only tries to prove me right for some reason. But I guess if I am a Marvel civilian he is the Marvel writer who writes me as cynical. So good job Pak!

@superguy1591: The only reason I began this conversation is the one we dropped.

Anyway, I don't care for dissing Pak anymore or supporting other writers, so I am ending this convo about the writers and titles and stuff like that.

The only matter I was interested in to begin with was your close-minded and prejudiced approach on pre-52 fans. So I am just gonna stop talking about the other stuff.

If you don't have anything to say about that, then I am done.