#1 Posted by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

I always felt that he really got Superman. He understands the character, what makes him Superman and the physics. Kingdom Come really put emphasis on how 10 years of absorbing Sunlight had made Superman stronger. This is only simple physics for Superman but no previous writer really put emphasis on it. For example, Superman was not very powerful in The Dark Knight Returns, despite the fact that he was 55 years old and should have absorbed alot of sunlight.

Furthermore, Waid has written two Superman masterpieces: Superman: Birthright and Kingdom Come. One story dealing with Superman's origin and another his return (similar to Frank Miller with Year One and DKR for Batman).

But Waid is really a great writer, I wish he could write more in the New-52 (has he even wrote in the New-52?). Writers like Jeph Loeb do not understand Superman (he wrote on good story which was For All Seasons). Loeb always seems to make a Superman story stupid, and don't get me started on what happens when he gets hold of Supergirl.

#2 Posted by Billy Batson (56933 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, he understands the character - too bad the stories weren't good.

BB

#3 Edited by Z3RO180 (5943 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok first of all physics has nouthing to do with Superman so just leave that out. Second Kingdom Come is not just a superman story and when I read it there was no indication that he was stronger. Sure he tanked a nuclear explosion but he has done the in the past.

#4 Posted by TDK_1997 (13689 posts) - - Show Bio

Mark Waid hasn't written for the New 52 and DC as a whole for a long time.There are a lot of disagreetments between the editors and him,so that is why he hasn't written anything.

#5 Posted by JakeN7 (4792 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, he understands the character - too bad I didn't like the stories

BB

Fixed it for you

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#6 Posted by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, he understands the character - too bad the stories weren't good.

BB

Kingdom Come and Birthright are widely regarded as great stories. Try again.

#7 Edited by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@z3ro180 said:

Ok first of all physics has nouthing to do with Superman so just leave that out. Second Kingdom Come is not just a superman story and when I read it there was no indication that he was stronger. Sure he tanked a nuclear explosion but he has done the in the past.

He was much more powerful than Mainstream Superman. He tanked Hercules (with the Golden Fleece) punch without even flinching, not only was he not hurt but he didn't even move, he fought the JSA with extra gravity, etc. His powers were more developed than Superman's.

The best writers will emphasize Superman becoming stronger with age, not weaker. Read beyond Kingdom Come and you will see his more powerful appearances. And besides, Lex Luthor mentioned he had absorbed so much sunlight that he had become immune to Kryptonite.

Writers like Loeb need to really make an effort to understand the character.

Also, Kryptonians were not immune to that explosion. It completely killed Power-Girl.

#8 Posted by Billy Batson (56933 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Edited by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Posted by TheAcidSkull (15926 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, he understands the character - too bad the stories weren't good.

Birthright was amazing.

#12 Posted by Billy Batson (56933 posts) - - Show Bio
#13 Posted by comedy_brosUSA (584 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that the new 52 superman is too unrealistically written. there seems to be little moments that are interesting.

#14 Posted by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson said:

Yeah, he understands the character - too bad the stories weren't good.

Birthright was amazing.

So was Kingdom Come. Honestly, I think Kingdom Come was better and more compelling.

I wouldn't be so sure of that. It's regarded as the best Superman origin story. IGN listed it as #7 on their 25 best Superman stories.

#15 Posted by Teerack (4549 posts) - - Show Bio

The reason Superman was weak in the dark knight returns was because he was really old and active, so he kept using up all of the sunlight he was getting. In kingdom come Superman was so much stronger not just because ten years past it was because Superman quit being Superman and was just letting all of that power built but inside of him.

Superman's powers are by their very nature meant to be in a state of flux as he takes in and uses up sunlight. Yet it seems that fans are almost aggressively unable to really understand or grasp the concept of this, and continuously think Superman's powers aren't actuate in various situations.

Mark Waid is the best comic writer alive. He should have a Spider-Man ongoing story if you ask me.

#16 Posted by JakeN7 (4792 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't gotten to Birthright yet but I've heard it's partly good, a little vanilla though, and it fell apart in the third act.

BB

Criticism without exposure? Is that really the Captain Marvel way? The wizard Shazam would be disappointed.

@jaken7:

It didn't need fixing.

Yes it did because it was grammatically incorrect. You presented an opinion as fact. The sentence didn't make sense... :P

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#17 Posted by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that the new 52 superman is too unrealistically written. there seems to be little moments that are interesting.

Pre-52 Superman showed more unrealistic feats.

@teerack said:

Mark Waid is the best comic writer alive. He should have a Spider-Man ongoing story if you ask me.

Agreed.

#18 Posted by Saren (24334 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't gotten to Birthright yet but I've heard it's partly good, a little vanilla though, and it fell apart in the third act.

BB

Yeah, Birthright's third act is pretty lame. The last moments of the story were quite good, though.

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#19 Edited by SanoHibiki (944 posts) - - Show Bio

That “with years Superman only became stronger” concept rather liked by me, but in bigger picture that’s just nice side touch.

S/he really got Superman” is very subjective term. Superman undertook massive changes over years, from his very first days in AC #1 and till modern New-52. Waid really got Superman just means that his personal opinion on how Superman should be is resonate well with your own. There always will be people which would find that something was written not in accordance with their own Superman’s image.

While I think that Kingdom Come is one of the greatest Elseworlds ever written, I found Superman Birthright sorely lacking in some elements (again, I basing this on my preferences how Superman and his cast should be written).

Back to original question. I really doubt that Waid will write Superman’s stories in New-52 anytime soon. His partnership with DC’s bosses really fell apart several years ago. I don’t believe than his following criticism of New-52 and very negative opinion about MOS improved anything ether.

#20 Posted by Billy Batson (56933 posts) - - Show Bio

Eh, I've been exposed to his other work with the character so it's okay.

Yes it did because it was grammatically incorrect. You presented an opinion as fact. The sentence didn't make sense... :P

The thing is that I don't call it bad because I don't like. I would say the story was good even if I didn't like it if it was good, but it wasn't good. I call it bad, because it is bad.

BB

#21 Edited by TheAcidSkull (15926 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson:

The thing is that I don't call it bad because I don't like. I would say the story was good even if I didn't like it if it was good, but it wasn't good. I call it bad, because it is bad.

how so?

#22 Posted by JakeN7 (4792 posts) - - Show Bio

@billy_batson: Y'know it's strange, I think Kingdom Come was my only exposure to "you" before the New 52 started. Do you think "you" are written badly in that or something? Or do you just generally find it to be a bad story?

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#23 Posted by Saren (24334 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7 said:

@billy_batson: Y'know it's strange, I think Kingdom Come was my only exposure to "you" before the New 52 started. Do you think "you" are written badly in that or something? Or do you just generally find it to be a bad story?

A borderline mentally handicapped zombie working for Luthor does scream Captain Marvel.

Moderator
#24 Posted by JakeN7 (4792 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren said:

@jaken7 said:

@billy_batson: Y'know it's strange, I think Kingdom Come was my only exposure to "you" before the New 52 started. Do you think "you" are written badly in that or something? Or do you just generally find it to be a bad story?

A borderline mentally handicapped zombie working for Luthor does scream Captain Marvel.

It's been a while since I read it, didn't remember it being that bad.

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#25 Edited by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren said:

@jaken7 said:

@billy_batson: Y'know it's strange, I think Kingdom Come was my only exposure to "you" before the New 52 started. Do you think "you" are written badly in that or something? Or do you just generally find it to be a bad story?

A borderline mentally handicapped zombie working for Luthor does scream Captain Marvel.

Yes, it does. It was one of the stories that actually gave him a part instead of sticking him in the back page of JLA issue. Luthor's manipulation of Billy is understandable, even the mainstream Captain Marvel has gone to work for Lex Luthor.

The New-52 has handled him well though.

#26 Edited by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@jaken7 said:

@saren said:

@jaken7 said:

@billy_batson: Y'know it's strange, I think Kingdom Come was my only exposure to "you" before the New 52 started. Do you think "you" are written badly in that or something? Or do you just generally find it to be a bad story?

A borderline mentally handicapped zombie working for Luthor does scream Captain Marvel.

It's been a while since I read it, didn't remember it being that bad.

It wasn't that bad. KC was one of Captain Marvel's best stories in terms of writing.

#27 Posted by Saren (24334 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@saren said:

@jaken7 said:

@billy_batson: Y'know it's strange, I think Kingdom Come was my only exposure to "you" before the New 52 started. Do you think "you" are written badly in that or something? Or do you just generally find it to be a bad story?

A borderline mentally handicapped zombie working for Luthor does scream Captain Marvel.

Yes, it does. It was one of the stories that actually gave him a part instead of sticking him in the back page of JLA issue. Luthor's manipulation of Billy is understandable, even the mainstream Captain Marvel has gone to work for Lex Luthor.

The New-52 has handled him well though.

If you want a story that gave Captain Marvel a part, read Justice or the Johns JSA run. Kingdom Come has never been a good Captain Marvel story.

The mainstream Captain Marvel was actually Captain Marvel, not a debilitated drone. Rather important difference.

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#28 Posted by TheHipKid (7194 posts) - - Show Bio

Good for him.

#29 Edited by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren said:

@frozen said:

@saren said:

@jaken7 said:

@billy_batson: Y'know it's strange, I think Kingdom Come was my only exposure to "you" before the New 52 started. Do you think "you" are written badly in that or something? Or do you just generally find it to be a bad story?

A borderline mentally handicapped zombie working for Luthor does scream Captain Marvel.

Yes, it does. It was one of the stories that actually gave him a part instead of sticking him in the back page of JLA issue. Luthor's manipulation of Billy is understandable, even the mainstream Captain Marvel has gone to work for Lex Luthor.

The New-52 has handled him well though.

If you want a story that gave Captain Marvel a part, read Justice or the Johns JSA run. Kingdom Come has never been a good Captain Marvel story.

The mainstream Captain Marvel was actually Captain Marvel, not a debilitated drone. Rather important difference.

I've read Justice, which was good but I didn't find it as compelling as Kingdom Come. Kingdom Come is one of the best Captain Marvel stories, I have never read a Captain Marvel story that was as compelling as Kingdom Come. Kingdom Come was a tragedy, not only with Superman but with Captain Marvel as a parallel. It touched upon Billy's emotional vulnerability, I can understand why he became brainwashed, Luthor became a father figure to him, and Superman clearly explained that Billy was afraid of how the new world was becoming.

It also handled the relationship between Superman and Captain Marvel quite well (in KC Superman's speech to Marvel). The only other Captain Marvel story that might be as good is Shazam: Power of Hope.

#30 Posted by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren: The mainstream Captain Marvel could become a 'deliberated drone' depending on the writer, he was heading in that direction in Superman/Batman series.

#31 Posted by Saren (24334 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@saren: The mainstream Captain Marvel could become a 'deliberated drone' depending on the writer, he was heading in that direction in Superman/Batman series.

I'm sorry, but are you actually claiming Billy working for President Luthor because every hero was ordered to is even remotely comparable to a brain-damaged Billy who existed only to be Luthor's walking WMD?

@frozen said:

@saren said:

@frozen said:

@saren said:

@jaken7 said:

@billy_batson: Y'know it's strange, I think Kingdom Come was my only exposure to "you" before the New 52 started. Do you think "you" are written badly in that or something? Or do you just generally find it to be a bad story?

A borderline mentally handicapped zombie working for Luthor does scream Captain Marvel.

Yes, it does. It was one of the stories that actually gave him a part instead of sticking him in the back page of JLA issue. Luthor's manipulation of Billy is understandable, even the mainstream Captain Marvel has gone to work for Lex Luthor.

The New-52 has handled him well though.

If you want a story that gave Captain Marvel a part, read Justice or the Johns JSA run. Kingdom Come has never been a good Captain Marvel story.

The mainstream Captain Marvel was actually Captain Marvel, not a debilitated drone. Rather important difference.

I've read Justice, which was good but I didn't find it as compelling as Kingdom Come. Kingdom Come is one of the best Captain Marvel stories, I have never read a Captain Marvel story that was as compelling as Kingdom Come. Kingdom Come was a tragedy, not only with Superman but with Captain Marvel as a parallel. It touched upon Billy's emotional vulnerability, I can understand why he became brainwashed, Luthor became a father figure to him, and Superman clearly explained that Billy was afraid of how the new world was becoming.

It also handled the relationship between Superman and Captain Marvel quite well (in KC Superman's speech to Marvel). The only other Captain Marvel story that might be as good is Shazam: Power of Hope.

Kingdom Come may be a compelling story on its own depending on whom you ask, but it's not a compelling Captain Marvel story for the simple reason that the character in it isn't Captain Marvel and has nothing to do with who Captain Marvel is.

Moderator
#32 Posted by comedy_brosUSA (584 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@comedy_brosusa said:

I think that the new 52 superman is too unrealistically written. there seems to be little moments that are interesting.

Pre-52 Superman showed more unrealistic feats.

@teerack said:

Mark Waid is the best comic writer alive. He should have a Spider-Man ongoing story if you ask me.

Agreed.

meh. i'd have to disagree. at least then it was written in the book that 'that' is how he is supposed to be. in the new 52 it's kind of a free for all as in powers and abilities. I mean we don't specifically know all that much about his past and his powers and abilities in the New-52. we are literally just getting more explanations about it now in the current issues of Superman.

#33 Posted by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren:

I'm sorry, but are you actually claiming Billy working for President Luthor because every hero was ordered to is even remotely comparable to a brain-damaged Billy who existed only to be Luthor's walking WMD?

No. I'm not. I'm claiming that if Luthor remained president and under the right circumstances Mainstream Captain Marvel could easily become a drone, if Luthor kept Marvel working for him he could brainwash him over time, in Kingdom Come's storyline it had been 10 years. The same happened to Superman in DKR (which had also been a 10 year period).. It is feasible that the same could happen to Captain Marvel. In Kingdom Come, the circumstances were different but Luthor was in position to manipulate Billy.

Kingdom Come may be a compelling story on its own depending on whom you ask, but it's not a compelling Captain Marvel story for the simple reason that the character in it isn't Captain Marvel and has nothing to do with who Captain Marvel is.

In my opinion I disagree. He does become Marvel again, but I like what they actually did with the character, it showed how vulnreble as a character he was. The same with Superman in DKR.

#34 Posted by Saren (24334 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@saren:

I'm sorry, but are you actually claiming Billy working for President Luthor because every hero was ordered to is even remotely comparable to a brain-damaged Billy who existed only to be Luthor's walking WMD?

No. I'm not. I'm claiming that if Luthor remained president and under the right circumstances Mainstream Captain Marvel could easily become a drone, if Luthor kept Marvel working for him he could brainwash him over time, in Kingdom Come's storyline it had been 10 years. The same happened to Superman in DKR (which had also been a 10 year period).. It is feasible that the same could happen to Captain Marvel. In Kingdom Come, the circumstances were different but Luthor was in position to manipulate Billy.

Kingdom Come may be a compelling story on its own depending on whom you ask, but it's not a compelling Captain Marvel story for the simple reason that the character in it isn't Captain Marvel and has nothing to do with who Captain Marvel is.

In my opinion I disagree. He does become Marvel again, but I like what they actually did with the character, it showed how vulnreble as a character he was. The same with Superman in DKR.

You probably should have, because this claim is worse. Why bother with hypotheticals that are contingent on even more hypotheticals as a justification?

Superman in DKR is again, not the same thing. Superman worked for Luthor under duress, but he was still Superman in thought and action. In Kingdom Come, Billy was brain-dead. He was a walking corpse dressed up as Captain Marvel. You don't seem to understand that they are not comparable situations. Luthor was in a position to manipulate Billy because, again, Billy was brain-dead. Which is, again, not comparable to Luthor manipulating Superman by threatening his loved ones.

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#35 Edited by dondave (26766 posts) - - Show Bio

@frozen said:

@z3ro180 said:

Ok first of all physics has nouthing to do with Superman so just leave that out. Second Kingdom Come is not just a superman story and when I read it there was no indication that he was stronger. Sure he tanked a nuclear explosion but he has done the in the past.

He was much more powerful than Mainstream Superman. He tanked Hercules (with the Golden Fleece) punch without even flinching, not only was he not hurt but he didn't even move, he fought the JSA with extra gravity, etc. His powers were more developed than Superman's.

The best writers will emphasize Superman becoming stronger with age, not weaker. Read beyond Kingdom Come and you will see his more powerful appearances. And besides, Lex Luthor mentioned he had absorbed so much sunlight that he had become immune to Kryptonite.

Writers like Loeb need to really make an effort to understand the character.

Also, Kryptonians were not immune to that explosion. It completely killed Power-Girl.

This was all under Johns though, rather than Waid.

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#36 Edited by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@saren said:

@frozen said:

@saren:

I'm sorry, but are you actually claiming Billy working for President Luthor because every hero was ordered to is even remotely comparable to a brain-damaged Billy who existed only to be Luthor's walking WMD?

No. I'm not. I'm claiming that if Luthor remained president and under the right circumstances Mainstream Captain Marvel could easily become a drone, if Luthor kept Marvel working for him he could brainwash him over time, in Kingdom Come's storyline it had been 10 years. The same happened to Superman in DKR (which had also been a 10 year period).. It is feasible that the same could happen to Captain Marvel. In Kingdom Come, the circumstances were different but Luthor was in position to manipulate Billy.

Kingdom Come may be a compelling story on its own depending on whom you ask, but it's not a compelling Captain Marvel story for the simple reason that the character in it isn't Captain Marvel and has nothing to do with who Captain Marvel is.

In my opinion I disagree. He does become Marvel again, but I like what they actually did with the character, it showed how vulnreble as a character he was. The same with Superman in DKR.

You probably should have, because this claim is worse. Why bother with hypotheticals that are contingent on even more hypotheticals as a justification?

Superman in DKR is again, not the same thing. Superman worked for Luthor under duress, but he was still Superman in thought and action. In Kingdom Come, Billy was brain-dead. He was a walking corpse dressed up as Captain Marvel. You don't seem to understand that they are not comparable situations. Luthor was in a position to manipulate Billy because, again, Billy was brain-dead. Which is, again, not comparable to Luthor manipulating Superman by threatening his loved ones.

I disagree, in my opinion it is possible.

You keep saying ''this was not Captain Marvel'' but that was kind of the point. Billy was only a child 10 years prior to Kingdom Come and the world was becoming ravaged by super-humans, so he turned to Luthor and lost touch with reality. Marvel was a parallel with Superman, who also lost touch with reality. In my opinion, KC was a great Captain Marvel story because it actually showed a version of Captain Marvel that had a compelling story.

Billy was not always brainwashed. The audio-dramaitzation emphasized that prior to Kingdom Come, Billy turned to Luthor for help and Luthor 'took him under his wing', the change to being brain dead was a progressive one, eventually becoming further disillusioned with reality. It was emphasized in the audio-dramatization.

I concede to the DSKA point, I had not read that in a long time, or DKR really.

Many writers have turned the mainstream Captain Marvel into a jobber, atleast Waid gave him a significant role in the story. I'm fine with you believing that Billy was a braindead zombie, but that is your opinion and not one that I share.

I have a question for you in PM too.

#37 Posted by Frozen (5202 posts) - - Show Bio

@dondave said:

@frozen said:

@z3ro180 said:

Ok first of all physics has nouthing to do with Superman so just leave that out. Second Kingdom Come is not just a superman story and when I read it there was no indication that he was stronger. Sure he tanked a nuclear explosion but he has done the in the past.

He was much more powerful than Mainstream Superman. He tanked Hercules (with the Golden Fleece) punch without even flinching, not only was he not hurt but he didn't even move, he fought the JSA with extra gravity, etc. His powers were more developed than Superman's.

The best writers will emphasize Superman becoming stronger with age, not weaker. Read beyond Kingdom Come and you will see his more powerful appearances. And besides, Lex Luthor mentioned he had absorbed so much sunlight that he had become immune to Kryptonite.

Writers like Loeb need to really make an effort to understand the character.

Also, Kryptonians were not immune to that explosion. It completely killed Power-Girl.

This was all under Johns though, rather than Waid.

It made sense though, he had become more powerful.

#38 Posted by SandMan_ (4526 posts) - - Show Bio

He does, but he also made Tower of Babel.

#39 Posted by Bezza (2162 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, Waid does get superman, kind of ironic, because a lot of guys over on the Hulk forum think he doesn't get the Hulk character.....Kingdom Come currently sits at number 1 as my Favourite graphic novel of all time, narrowly ahead of Planet Hulk.

Loeb, great for Batman stories, perhaps not so good on super-powered characters? Again Hulk fans generally despise the Loeb Hulk run....but I do really like Superman for all seasons. A lot of that may be the art however, I just dig the vintage art in that comic.