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#1 Posted by Bezza (3644 posts) - - Show Bio

..This is what the owner of the comic book shop I frequent told me yesterday. We were discussing why MOS hadn't taken more at the box office, less for example than the Amazing Spiderman re-boot last year. He reckons Batman is way more popular among his readers and people prefer gritty, realism these days and don't care so much for the big boy scout. Well, as someone who is a relic from a bygone era himself, perhaps that's why I still have a soft spot for Superman, but is he perhaps a bit out-dated now, compared with Spiderman, Iron-Man, Batman and others?

#2 Posted by Rossnrachel4ever (82 posts) - - Show Bio

Spider-Man, Ironman, and Batman will always appeal more to certain groups, particularly the young, because there is more of a wish fulfillment aspect to them. On the surface they're more flashy and "cool". Superman, on the other hand, is the hardest working guy on Earth. Being Superman isn't "cool" because he always has to use his powers responsibly and selflessly. I look up to Superman for that very reason, though. He's a real man. He sacrifices what he wants for what's right.

#3 Posted by Wolverine08 (42477 posts) - - Show Bio

He is still the most known superhero, but he isn't the most popular ( In terms of getting hype, being what's "in") IMO, it looks like this.

1. Batman

2. Iron Man

3. Spider-Man

4. Superman

5. Wolverine

#4 Edited by Bierschneeman (3987 posts) - - Show Bio

sort of? but not specifically. I'd say what he is getting at, is since the 1800s Antiheroes have become more and more popular in novels, pulps, short stories etc. There was a sharp decline around the end of WW2 which in part explains the end of the golden era of comic books, now adays its hard to find a movie or book with a "true hero" Superman Movies are the only superhero movies produced in the last decade and the only ones to hit sales as high as they do since before the silverage. so it sticks out like a sore thumb. It probably his popularity alone that lets him hold on longer than the other non antiheroes. and pull in less at the box office than antihero comic book movies. but He is still Here, he is still one of the main, and most popular heroes... He isn't going anywhere, sometimes, you need to look up to a hero, instead of over at one.

I guess people generally like anitheroes. probably why Flash movies always get cancelled, and Wonder Woman movies always do so very awful. I don't for see Ill see a mainstream Captain Marvel/ Captain Marvel/ Miss Marvel/ Miss Marvel movie that grosses very high either. people not reading comics probably want their heroes touchable.... not admirable... they want to see the same flaws in them as they do themselves (or potential in themselves)

even in comics, if you look (this came up in a recent topic here) theres not many "true heroes" just antiheroes as far as the eye can see... other than the ones I listed I can't think of any off the top of my head... amybe Kyle rayner, but Im not that familiar with him.... (wait isn't he the one infected with the most fear? if so, I guess not even him)

#5 Edited by Blackdog2009 (1836 posts) - - Show Bio

To answer the question asked: NO

That's just wishful thinking from all those idiots in love with the wolverines and punishers and deadpools of comics. Look, I love other superheroes, Wolverine is cool, the Punisher has his appeal.. I have so many of their stories and runs. but NONE OF THEM HOLD A CANDLE TO SUPERMAN!!! Superman is THE superhero, the main man... he's no 'relic', people that want to force that ignorant thinking ,THEY are the relics, their way of thinking is a 'relic'. I see you out there... With your wishful thinking lists ((Wolverine08 and others) trying to elevate characters like IM and Wolvie into Superman status. It's amusing but foolish. You implying that Wolverine is anywhere near Superman's level of iconic status. Just stop it.

Call me the next time rock bands, singers, artists of all types write an IM song, yeah let me know when Wolverine gets a universal symbol that represents 'strength' and 'courage' like the big red S. Does a relic get a tv series that ran successfully for a decade?! Little kids go thru Superman phases!!! You noobs think Superman only just hit theaters? He was an office box star before any if these Marvel Superman wannabes.

You want a popularity list? Here:

1. SUPERMAN

2. Batman

3. Spider Man

4. Wonder Woman

that's it, nuff said.

#6 Posted by RDClip (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope, I'd say the reason ASM did better than Man of Steel (not by a giant margin, 750 vs 660 million, though it MoS made more domestically) is because Spider-Man just finished up a massively popular trilogy of movies while Superman's last outing into movies was the badly recieved and little remembered Superman Returns. The very polarized reviews of MoS didn't help either.

Yes, Superman isn't the top Superhero right now, but he sure as hell isn't a forgotten relic. People still know who he is and are still willing to read his books and watch his movies. And he is still more popular than 99% of comic heroes, goodies or antiheroes. If his next movie is great then he has a chance to really make his mark on this generation just like Batman and Iron Man have.

And this idea of "only antihero comic movies makes money" really doesn't make any sense to me. Is Spider-Man an antihero? Is Iron Man? Were anyone on the roster of Avengers antiheroes? (Hulk might count, but it's arguable) People are still willing to root for heroes that are just good guys, not messed up dudes with anger issues.

#7 Edited by Bierschneeman (3987 posts) - - Show Bio

ahh Looked it up, the only real recent (5 years) supermovie that did worse than Man of Steel is incredible Hulk, and Captain America.... Cap being the only other successful mainstream superhero movie I can think of that isn't an antihero. but none of them did horrible?? so that brings up the question what this old comic book guy was staring at when he said the movie didn't do that well.... sure relatively... it only did like a 6th of iron man....

we seem to like lists on this thread, so heres another one... Most recognizable comic superhero characters in the world, outside of comic readers

1. Superman

2. Batman

3. Wonder Woman

4. Captain America

5. Spiderman

6. Iron Man

note, three in this are these non-antiheroes... but those don't have the top grossing films, and outof them superman stands high as one of only two superheroes recognized as the most recognizable symbols throughout the world... (the cross and the mcdonalds sign {among others} are both above superman and batman)

#8 Edited by Bierschneeman (3987 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip:

I agreed with you, (in my post as well) until you got to the antihero part.... Where the heck did you get your definition of antihero? Iron Man is most definitely an antihero almost to the point of being more so than Batman... he's an alcoholic, knowitall, with a propensity for over arrogance, and dabbling with loose women.... NONE of these traits are heroic. an antihero is sometimes called, a flawed character, or a flawed hero, the idea being that the character doesn't uphold all the characteristics of the perfect altruistic hero.... traits like.....Idealism, Heroism, Courage, morally good, noble, and possessing great fortitude.

even Thor, the most like a "true hero" of the bunch you labled has his flaws, which is precisely why he failed to lift his hammer... because of his flaws, that made him an antihero...

Amazing spiderman is definitely an antihero even moreso than hulk... (though without Hulk I am willing to say that Bruce Banner wouldn't be an antihero...{although sometimes he is depicted as cowardly so sometimes he is an anithero, even without the Hulk}.. but he isn't without the Hulk, is he)

#9 Posted by Sovereign91001 (4450 posts) - - Show Bio

No

#10 Edited by MartianManhunterIsBetterThanCyborg (2243 posts) - - Show Bio

Some of his ideals don't resonate with people these days who like characters with shades of grey. And some aspects seem outdated in today's suburb industrial digital age like his farm background and a newspaper company like the Daily Planet. However Superman will always remain ultra-popular in the eyes of the public and nothing is going to bring him down. Not even Superman Returns or him snapping Zod's neck in MOS.

#11 Edited by Strider92 (16509 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman has evovled beyond comics he's like Batman and Spider-man in the fact he's iconic. Is he a relic? Sure he's old but that doesn't make him any less recognizable. Characters like Iron man, Captain America etc.... are flavor of the month characters due to good movies and a great on-screen portayal. Superman, Batman and Spider-man will generate interest regardless of how they are portayed or what media they appear in.

The only other character that could be considered anywhere near their level of pop-culture influence is Wonder Woman but characters like Iron Man are still a far-cry from the same level as the other 3 i've mentioned.

The top is and will be for a LOOOONG time to come:

  • Superman
  • Batman
  • Spider-man

Simple as that.

#12 Posted by Husk (454 posts) - - Show Bio

sort of? but not specifically. I'd say what he is getting at, is since the 1800s Antiheroes have become more and more popular in novels, pulps, short stories etc. There was a sharp decline around the end of WW2 which in part explains the end of the golden era of comic books, now adays its hard to find a movie or book with a "true hero" Superman Movies are the only superhero movies produced in the last decade and the only ones to hit sales as high as they do since before the silverage. so it sticks out like a sore thumb. It probably his popularity alone that lets him hold on longer than the other non antiheroes. and pull in less at the box office than antihero comic book movies. but He is still Here, he is still one of the main, and most popular heroes... He isn't going anywhere, sometimes, you need to look up to a hero, instead of over at one.

I guess people generally like anitheroes. probably why Flash movies always get cancelled, and Wonder Woman movies always do so very awful. I don't for see Ill see a mainstream Captain Marvel/ Captain Marvel/ Miss Marvel/ Miss Marvel movie that grosses very high either. people not reading comics probably want their heroes touchable.... not admirable... they want to see the same flaws in them as they do themselves (or potential in themselves)

even in comics, if you look (this came up in a recent topic here) theres not many "true heroes" just antiheroes as far as the eye can see... other than the ones I listed I can't think of any off the top of my head... amybe Kyle rayner, but Im not that familiar with him.... (wait isn't he the one infected with the most fear? if so, I guess not even him)

THIS!!

Superman has evovled beyond comics he's like Batman and Spider-man in the fact he's iconic. Is he a relic? Sure he's old but that doesn't make him any less recognizable. Characters like Iron man, Captain America etc.... are flavor of the month characters due to good movies and a great on-screen portayal. Superman, Batman and Spider-man will generate interest regardless of how they are portayed or what media they appear in.

The only other character that could be considered anywhere near their level of pop-culture influence is Wonder Woman but characters like Iron Man are still a far-cry from the same level as the other 3 i've mentioned.

The top is and will be for a LOOOONG time to come:

  • Superman
  • Batman
  • Spider-man

Simple as that.

AND THIS!!

really they are arguing the same thing, just going about it different ways, Bierschneeman seems to take a stroll and talk to his neighbor about what color roses he should get ( seriously are like a HUGE fan of Hawthorne, cause you remind me a lot of reading his works) in addition I think he only got half the story, yes Superman stands out as one of very few non-antiheroes out there with popularity stretching into the general populace, BUT, even then he is in an even more elite category.... A long standing Golden Age Character whose name and basic premise have not changed.... there are very few out there, Bruce Wayne has Always been Batman, Superman is secretly Clark Kent from Krypton, Wonder Woman is still an Amazon (though her character has changed a few times, she is always Diana), there are two more that were cancelled for a short period early on.... Captain America has always been a super serumed Steve Rogers, and Captain Marvel has always been Billy Batson granted powers. (out of this list I'd say Captain Marvel is the least popular) you can try and argue the Justice Society members, but they have been out of Comics for a Very long time, before they were reintroduced, you can try Green Lantern and The Flash..... but the characters were changed drastically when the original speedster and the mystical railwayman were replaced with different people.

Strider92, is a lot more upfront with his point, I like that. but I think He overestimates Spiderman, placing him up there with Superman and Batman, (sure for comic sales this works, but movies have nothing to do with comic sales) I think he also Underestimates Wonderwoman, and Captain America, these are long standing characters who were internationally known before spiderman's Creation we could argue on which is more recognizable world wide, and come up with several answers But they are all up there notoriety,.... but I do think Iron Man MIGHT be a flavor of the month as you stated. Ive never seen an Iron Man Shirt written in german, or Japanese (im sure they exist, probably moreso now.)

#13 Posted by Strider92 (16509 posts) - - Show Bio

@husk said:

Strider92, is a lot more upfront with his point, I like that. but I think He overestimates Spiderman, placing him up there with Superman and Batman, (sure for comic sales this works, but movies have nothing to do with comic sales) I think he also Underestimates Wonderwoman, and Captain America, these are long standing characters who were internationally known before spiderman's Creation we could argue on which is more recognizable world wide, and come up with several answers But they are all up there notoriety,.... but I do think Iron Man MIGHT be a flavor of the month as you stated. Ive never seen an Iron Man Shirt written in german, or Japanese (im sure they exist, probably moreso now.)

I disagree here. How many Super-heroes have a massive inflatable (its stupidly big like 50ft tall) paraded every year through New York for thanks giving?

Thousands of people see this every year in an event that has nothing to do with him in the most powerful country in the world? He has t-shirts, underwear and god only knows what else in nearly every country all over the world and you don't think he's in the Icon league or more recognizable than Captain America? Nope not buying it.

#14 Edited by Wolverine08 (42477 posts) - - Show Bio

@husk said:

Strider92, is a lot more upfront with his point, I like that. but I think He overestimates Spiderman, placing him up there with Superman and Batman, (sure for comic sales this works, but movies have nothing to do with comic sales) I think he also Underestimates Wonderwoman, and Captain America, these are long standing characters who were internationally known before spiderman's Creation we could argue on which is more recognizable world wide, and come up with several answers But they are all up there notoriety,.... but I do think Iron Man MIGHT be a flavor of the month as you stated. Ive never seen an Iron Man Shirt written in german, or Japanese (im sure they exist, probably moreso now.)

I disagree here. How many Super-heroes have a massive inflatable (its stupidly big like 50ft tall) paraded every year through New York for thanks giving?

Thousands of people see this every year in an event that has nothing to do with him in the most powerful country in the world? He has t-shirts, underwear and god only knows what else in nearly every country all over the world and you don't think he's in the Icon league or more recognizable than Captain America? Nope not buying it.

Yeah, Spidey is definitely one of the world's 3 most recognizable heroes along with Supes and Bats.

#15 Posted by teddy_the_god_killer (299 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackdog2009: @bierschneeman: @husk: @bezza:

Ok for my two penny contribution I state nothing that any of you guys would not have suggested, but seem to have left out. The original OP mentioned many different factors before arriving at the crux of the question. So I will try to address the question as best I can. If I seem a tad anal I am keen on language so I view prose with a certain degree of discrimination (I myself make a few mistakes) :

@bezza said:

"We were discussing why MOS hadn't taken more at the box office, less for example than the Amazing Spiderman re-boot last year. He reckons Batman is way more popular among his readers and people prefer gritty, realism these days and don't care so much for the big boy scout".

These are two totally different beasts, as has been discussed in other threads. Comic readers make a tiny weeny percentage of box office receipts. The general public on the whole know nothing of Superman's history both fictional and literal. So for them the ideas of relevancy and antiquity are fairly redundant. It looks like a good film...end of. It will not inspire many more people to read the comics, because let's be honest...it involves reading (not great when most people have a tweet length capacity for concentration - harsh but true).

So to comic readers : Superman is a fictional abstraction of an idea not a real person, I cannot understand why people ascribe lifelike qualities to him. He was created in a special time in history, to attract an audience that was still getting over a World War and warming up for the horrific sequel. Morals and ethics of the time were very different. People needed a heroic character something that exemplified a higher being, as Nietzsche would have put it : Übermensch. People were scared and needed hope. Millions had died in horrific circumstances. Spanish Flu had killed maybe 100,000,000 people! It was bleak. Superman had none of our weaknesses, he was...super. Strong, moral and responsible,everything a child needs.

Today it is very different. Most young people have grown up with war in the news. Morals in economics and politics (domestic and international) are out the window. The high divorce rates, broken families, drugs and whole host of other issues now face everyone, the Halcyon is gone. Some might say but this makes Superman more relevant than ever. I disagree. Such a figure can polarise people's views in terms of relevancy, which I separate from escapism. Escapism looks for a contrary position, something different without day to day hassles. Relevancy looks for similarities, empathy. Superman is too perfect,he exemplifies the idea of authority, so powerful but a servant to mankind. Be good like Superman?!?!? No we live in a disposable age when we have violence, sadness and despair on TV (obviously I mean the news). Everything is to be consumed and discarded at will. This is the Wolverine character the young public sees in films...driven,take no prisoners, get what you want,do not be afraid to hurt to get your result, anger for a forgotten past and an idea of vengeance and a sense of entitlement. The same goes for Batman. These are themes that are current today...pick up a newspaper. Iron Man is technology (like Batman)...he has an iPad, iPhone...that's every teenage kid. Spiderman is a kid in today's world. All relevant. Superman is Superman, he has nothing to tie him to today, no gimmics, technology or frippery. He has morals...not many kids see them as important today. What really, honestly can Superman teach a child that has today's Grand Theft Auto mentality??? "It's not right to have intercourse then kill prostitutes"...GTA says it's ok. "Don't kill people, try to reason first"...tell that to the Black Ops lot. And this is the point, you want to see relevancy...look at video games.

Superman is a great idea and if you want that as a 'hero' then that's your call and right. But he is by definition a relic. Seriously why did he break Zod's neck??? Think about it...it's is not real...someone chose to write and contravene 75 years of history...why?

But, I am probably wrong.

#16 Posted by Blackdog2009 (1836 posts) - - Show Bio

"So to comic readers : Superman is a fictional abstraction of an idea not a real person, I cannot understand why people ascribe lifelike qualities to him."

You see what you did there... that's my problem with you guys, you generalize, you live in this bubble where you come to the internet and make absolute statements and say things like these. Do you know what all comic readers in the world think? you are speaking on their behalf. Superman is a fictional character that has endured for 7 decades and will continue to do so after me and many of you are dead. People ascribe lifelike qualities to fictional characters ALL THE TIME!!!!! This is why you will see Dracula portrayed as a romantic hero in a comedy movie. That's not what was intended of him but they did do that with the character.

There are layers to Superman. Why do you think the Smallville show lasted so long? As Clark Kent you make Superman human, he interacts with people, he is basically a god like being with human flaws, self doubts, crushes, fears, feelings of not fitting in, and the huge responsibility of having so much power and doing the right thing with it. The answer is still NO. SUPERMAN is no relic. Get your facts straight.

rel·ic

1.

a surviving memorial of something past.

2.

an object having interest by reason of its age or its association with the past: a museum of historic relics.

3.

a surviving trace of something: a custom that is a relic of paganism.

4.

relics.

a.

remaining parts or fragments.

b.

the remains of a deceased person.

5.

something kept in remembrance; souvenir; memento.

#17 Posted by Fallschirmjager (17639 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman has evovled beyond comics he's like Batman and Spider-man in the fact he's iconic. Is he a relic? Sure he's old but that doesn't make him any less recognizable. Characters like Iron man, Captain America etc.... are flavor of the month characters due to good movies and a great on-screen portayal. Superman, Batman and Spider-man will generate interest regardless of how they are portayed or what media they appear in.

The only other character that could be considered anywhere near their level of pop-culture influence is Wonder Woman but characters like Iron Man are still a far-cry from the same level as the other 3 i've mentioned.

The top is and will be for a LOOOONG time to come:

  • Superman
  • Batman
  • Spider-man

Simple as that.

Couldn't have said it better myself. Is Ironman very popular right now because of RDJ? You bet he is.

But I don't know that I've met anyone who doesn't know who Superman and Batman are (Spiderman maybe not 10/10 people...but 7-8/10 probably). Even people who DO NOT like Comics/cartoons/cbm/etc's....They know who these guys are.

Does someone who doesn't like comics/cartoons/movies know who Ironman is? I doubt it.

Now I will ask this. In 10 years when we're on our 2nd reboot of the Spiderman franchise (and yes it will happen. Sony must have a movie in production every 5+ years in order to keep the rights and they are not going to let Spiderman walk away) are people going to go see it? Of course they are! Its SPIDERMAN. The actor doesn't matter.

Are people going to faithfully go see Ironman when RDJ stops playing him? That is a far harder question to answer.

#18 Posted by The_Titan_Lord (5646 posts) - - Show Bio

Maybe.

#19 Edited by Wolverine08 (42477 posts) - - Show Bio

@fallschirmjager:

RDJ is a factor, but I think Iron Man is popular for other reasons.

1. His gimmick works. Iron Man is largely centered around technology, and in the in the time we live in, he fit's in like a glove with how our lives basically revolve around technology.

2. He appears realistic. I think ever since Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy, the public has been gravitating towards more realistic superheroes because they seem more mature. Even though you'd require a nuclear energy breakthrough to get a real Iron Man suit, in this age of technology, Iron Man really seems like something that could happen.

3. His personality fits for this age. I think people nowadays aren't looking for heroes that are symbols of hope, justice, etc, and I think Tony's loveable narcissist image appeals to how people of today are.

Overall, I think Robert Downey Jr is a starting point, but if Iron Man plays it right, he can become a big timer like Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc. Those guys weren't icons right of the back when they first appeared in comics. They took time to develop their icon images. Who's to say Iron Man can't do the same?

#20 Posted by IrishX (2377 posts) - - Show Bio

That's just wishful thinking from all those idiots in love with the wolverines and punishers and deadpools of comics.

Yep, no generalizing there.

You also seemed to have trouble understanding that there's a difference between being "iconic" and being "popular".

#21 Posted by Fallschirmjager (17639 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: He may be able to, but he's not on their level right now either.

I personally don't think he will, because I don't care for the character as a whole. If you evaluate who Tony Stark is...he is an asshole. He is a playboy. He's a alcoholic. ETC. These aren't redeeming qualities he's been associated with over his history.

But RDJ has a way of making that seem charming. Its not something everyone will be able to do. And I don't think his popularity outside of movies, is anywhere even close to Superman and Batman and Spiderman. Especially Supes and Bats.

#22 Posted by Wolverine08 (42477 posts) - - Show Bio

To answer the question asked: NO

That's just wishful thinking from all those idiots in love with the wolverines and punishers and deadpools of comics. Look, I love other superheroes, Wolverine is cool, the Punisher has his appeal.. I have so many of their stories and runs. but NONE OF THEM HOLD A CANDLE TO SUPERMAN!!! Superman is THE superhero, the main man... he's no 'relic', people that want to force that ignorant thinking ,THEY are the relics, their way of thinking is a 'relic'. I see you out there... With your wishful thinking lists ((Wolverine08 and others) trying to elevate characters like IM and Wolvie into Superman status. It's amusing but foolish. You implying that Wolverine is anywhere near Superman's level of iconic status. Just stop it.

Call me the next time rock bands, singers, artists of all types write an IM song, yeah let me know when Wolverine gets a universal symbol that represents 'strength' and 'courage' like the big red S. Does a relic get a tv series that ran successfully for a decade?! Little kids go thru Superman phases!!! You noobs think Superman only just hit theaters? He was an office box star before any if these Marvel Superman wannabes.

You want a popularity list? Here:

1. SUPERMAN

2. Batman

3. Spider Man

4. Wonder Woman

that's it, nuff said.

You really don't seem to get that iconic and popular are two different things. Supes is more iconic than Batman, but Batman is more popular.

#23 Edited by Wolverine08 (42477 posts) - - Show Bio

Yeah, Wonder Woman isn't in the top 5 for most popular heroes at all..... most iconic? Definitely. But most popular? Lol, no.

#24 Posted by danhimself (22564 posts) - - Show Bio

I would have called his mom a relic from a bygone era

#25 Posted by Bezza (3644 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I am pleased that most people don't see Superman as a relic. I certainly don't, I was merely creating debate following a discussion with a comic book shop owner. I do fear however that his popularity isn't quite what it was in the movie and comic book world due to DC's typical ham-fisted treatment of the character in the films. The last Superman film that nearly everyone liked? Superman 2, that was back in 1980!! How many comic viners were even alive back then? Spiderman is huge, definitely Marvel's number one and probably always will be, but don't underestimate Iron Man, Hulk, Thor and others, their time has come...you see, as one generation dies off, or gets too old to influence culture, another one moves in and youngsters at the moment are feeding off the Iron Man movies, Avengers etc...these characters could in 20-30 years be the most popular and as "iconic" as the big 3.... However I suspect Superman, Batman and Spiderman will always be iconic...as one poster has said, the Superman S is up there with the crucifix and McDonalds as one of the most recognisable symbols in the world.

#26 Posted by RDClip (1129 posts) - - Show Bio

@bierschneeman: No, Iron Man and Spider-Man are not anti-heroes. An anti-hero blurs the line between hero and villain. Both of them still have heroic virtues and would never be seen as a villain by anyone (except JJ). Punisher is an anti-hero, Terry Surugey is an anti-hero, Jack Bauer is an anti-hero.

The is a difference between a flawed hero and anti-hero. In present day the line has been muddied, but the way I see it the flawed hero is always seen as a hero while the anti-hero is one step away from being a villain because he is willing to eschew heroic morallity to achieve his goals. Spidey or Iron Man are not going to execute people in cold blood to achieve their goals.

#27 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

No offense to this friend of yours but he's talking nonsense if he thinks Superman is an outdated relic in a bygone age. As long as humanity keeps the desire to strive for better and adhere to humanity's greatest moral values, Superman will always be relevant.

#28 Posted by Rankorr25 (49 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is amazing, he's basically TRUTH, JUSTICE AND THE GOOD OL' AMERICAN WAY personified, and I don't care at all about Spidey and the others, the're good, but almost none of the heroes are like Superman, and I'll be a fan of Superman until my last breath!

#29 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

And let me know when Spawn, Deadpool, Wolverine, Punisher and all the other gritty, edgy heroes reach iconic status, can be recognised from their symbol or a piece of music and is known by practically everyone, even people who don't read or aren't interested in comics.

#30 Posted by Bierschneeman (3987 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip said:

@bierschneeman: No, Iron Man and Spider-Man are not anti-heroes. An anti-hero blurs the line between hero and villain. Both of them still have heroic virtues and would never be seen as a villain by anyone (except JJ). Punisher is an anti-hero, Terry Surugey is an anti-hero, Jack Bauer is an anti-hero.

The is a difference between a flawed hero and anti-hero. In present day the line has been muddied, but the way I see it the flawed hero is always seen as a hero while the anti-hero is one step away from being a villain because he is willing to eschew heroic morallity to achieve his goals. Spidey or Iron Man are not going to execute people in cold blood to achieve their goals.

Anithero- A literary term; A protagonist who lacks some of the characteristics that make up a tradional heroic character; Nobility, Heroism, courage, idealism, selflessness, physical prowess, et cetera. The character is than generally admired by society for their weakness in character.

Antihero- a prtotagonist or notable figure that does who is conspicuously lacking in heroic qualities. (a hero not possessing all the usual good qualities expected in a hero.)

theres two definitions, the first from my Cambridge dictionary, the second from my Webster..... neither conforms to the way you see it, Spiderman is an antihero, he is very selfish and always feels bad, because the people around him generally pay for his mistakes. Iron Man I already explained, and with the definitions before you clearly fits the bill.

if you want examples that are commonly in essays about antiheroes.... Indiana Jones, Uncas (from last of the mohicans), Han Solo, Batman, Rincewind (discworld), George from Of Mice and Men). and because I don't want to just list characters found typically in essays, Hancock.

#31 Posted by Cezar_TheScribe (2615 posts) - - Show Bio

Not at all. Superman is great.

#32 Posted by darkman61288 (741 posts) - - Show Bio

It is not what Superman stands and the the fact that he is a classical hero is what makes him a relic it is his power. People today don't want to see stories about Godlike beings, that want to see regular people in extraordinary situations.

#33 Posted by PowerHerc (84035 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope.

Superman is not an out-dated character though, having first appeared in 1938, he is from a bygone era. Superman may not be a popular as he once was but he is still far from being unpopular. His popularity is enough to carry more than one ongoing title and assures him inclusion in every company-wide event DC prints. Superman is also part, maybe the main part, of DC's premier super-team, the Justice League, and he's one of the top two attractions in any and all animated productions, merchandise and movies based on DC characters. This is due to his popularity. His popularity is due to him being a just, moral and good guy character - the type of character people admire and would like to be like.

Not being number one doesn't mean Superman is irrelevant or out-dated. Superman has been one of the top 5 most popular comic characters since his first appearance in 1938. That's 75 years of being at or near the top. The grim gritty thing has been going for a little over 25 years but it's popularity will someday decline. When it does decline and the characters, I'll bet Superman is still right up there in the top five.

#34 Posted by Wolverine08 (42477 posts) - - Show Bio

All the people here who keep defending Superman by insulting heroes like Batman, Wolverine, etc as just being "edgy" sound like they've never read any of their comics.

#35 Edited by cameron83 (7350 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

All the people here who keep defending Superman by insulting heroes like Batman, Wolverine, etc as just being "edgy" sound like they've never read any of their comics.

lol I completely agree.

Superman is not a relic. He is an icon. But he is still greatly disliked by most of the public for reasons I will never understand other than ignorance. Probably the same reason people who have never read a comic in their life dislike him or dislike Aquaman. Their knowledge of comics isn't even at the mediocre line and yet they feel the need to diss some characters.

But back to what Wolverine08 said,it's funny how people have to insult other characters for their own fanboyism. It is so desperate. Maybe one of the reasons people don't like the character (athough I disagree with hating a character because of their fans).

I mean,there is no doubt that Superman is more iconic than Punisher or Wolverine or Deadpool or Spiderman or Aquaman (although all of those characters are awesome),but I think that general respect is a completely different thing. And popularity doesn't mean that a character is of higher quality or that they are objectively better in any way.

#36 Posted by Lvenger (20039 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08: For the record, I wasn't insulting Wolverine and I have read a few of his comics. I was just using him as an example of how supposedly gritty and edgy heroes are not more complex characters than iconic, stoic, morally righteous characters. That illusion is one that is held by many and can be dispelled by reading well written issues of said characters.

#37 Posted by Husk (454 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

touché...... well played, I Concede my spiderman is awesome, but unable to play with batman and superman's level of awesome argument.

he clearly is.

again, well played

#38 Posted by cameron83 (7350 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackdog2009 said:

To answer the question asked: NO

That's just wishful thinking from all those idiots in love with the wolverines and punishers and deadpools of comics. Look, I love other superheroes, Wolverine is cool, the Punisher has his appeal.. I have so many of their stories and runs. but NONE OF THEM HOLD A CANDLE TO SUPERMAN!!! Superman is THE superhero, the main man... he's no 'relic', people that want to force that ignorant thinking ,THEY are the relics, their way of thinking is a 'relic'. I see you out there... With your wishful thinking lists ((Wolverine08 and others) trying to elevate characters like IM and Wolvie into Superman status. It's amusing but foolish. You implying that Wolverine is anywhere near Superman's level of iconic status. Just stop it.

Call me the next time rock bands, singers, artists of all types write an IM song, yeah let me know when Wolverine gets a universal symbol that represents 'strength' and 'courage' like the big red S. Does a relic get a tv series that ran successfully for a decade?! Little kids go thru Superman phases!!! You noobs think Superman only just hit theaters? He was an office box star before any if these Marvel Superman wannabes.

You want a popularity list? Here:

1. SUPERMAN

2. Batman

3. Spider Man

4. Wonder Woman

that's it, nuff said.

You really don't seem to get that iconic and popular are two different things. Supes is more iconic than Batman, but Batman is more popular.

Um,I believe Iron Man already has a song after him. And Wolverine will never get a symbol like the big red S because that's not what he is centered around.

And wow the comment is filled with SO MUCH fanboyism and stupidity that it's disturbing...I mean...Marvel Superman Wannabes?

Ugh. There are just hundreds of things wrong with many of these comments and notions that I just....can't even.......

Like assuming that popular means better character. Or that they are loved by the public.

Right now,DC is a burning match with the new 52,and their only movies are either Batman or Superman. But let's let the money do the talking.

#39 Edited by Wolverine08 (42477 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Oh, I wasn't referring to you man. I've just seen a lot of people in this thread who have decided to defend Superman by trying to label dark heroes like Batman, Wolverine, etc as being just one trick ponies who aren't complex. That's really just tantamount to the ignorance of people who don't like Superman, and just label him as an "overpowered boyscout" who is boring without knowing anything about him. If guys like Bats and Wolverine's only character aspects were that they were dark, they would have faded into irrelevance like most of dark heroes who were popular in the 90s did. Plus, Wolverine and Batman do have symbols just as known as Superman's! The Batmobile and Wolverine's claws are just as iconic as the S on Superman's chest! Trolololol

#40 Posted by BlackWind (6385 posts) - - Show Bio

No. Superman is timeless.

#41 Edited by GodTriggerHulk (1998 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Superman's popularity has held constant. It's just that other characters are also getting big.

Iron-Man and Wolverine have made it, in terms of pop-culture immortality.

Deadpool's next, people will freakin' love him and they don't even realize it yet.

#42 Posted by roboadmiral (546 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't know that Superman is a relic of a bygone era, but he can very easily become one. Particularly with, what seems to be anyway, the rising tide of post-revisionist comic book fans there's been an increased emphasis on the character as a symbol, icon, inspiration, etc. This, however, is a great way to make the character feel dated and detached from reality. If you take Kingdom Come for example, many people will point to its main theme being a criticism of the needlessly grim 'n gritty stories of the '90s that were devoid of the moral fiber of their predecessors. There's another message that's often overlooked though. If the old guard had been more willing to adapt to the times to maintain their own relevance, the new hotness would never have been needed. If creators and readers can remember that Superman is as much a person as he is an icon, then we stand a much better chance of him maintaining relevance for another 75 years or more.

#43 Edited by fil123 (528 posts) - - Show Bio

batman

#44 Posted by cameron83 (7350 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Oh, I wasn't referring to you man. I've just seen a lot of people in this thread who have decided to defend Superman by trying to label dark heroes like Batman, Wolverine, etc as being just one trick ponies who aren't complex. That's really just tantamount to the ignorance of people who don't like Superman, and just label him as an "overpowered boyscout" who is boring without knowing anything about him. If guys like Bats and Wolverine's only character aspects were that they were dark, they would have faded into irrelevance like most of dark heroes who were popular in the 90s did. Plus, Wolverine and Batman do have symbols just as known as Superman's! The Batmobile and Wolverine's claws are just as iconic as the S on Superman's chest! Trolololol

Actually,people like Batman and Wolverine are actually very popular.

Most of Batman's villains are popular because of him,same with his lair,his vehicles,his sidekicks,even his damn butler.

At most,the only extension Superman really has is Lex Luthor,Lois Lane,and jimmy Olsen.

Wolverine's claws and his savagery are his symbol. He's often associated with the Xmen,and most every Xmen is popular anyway (although not all are icons). Although Mystique is often seen as an extension of Wolverine's world and she's well known....

#45 Edited by Strider92 (16509 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@fallschirmjager:


Overall, I think Robert Downey Jr is a starting point, but if Iron Man plays it right, he can become a big timer like Batman, Superman, Spider-Man, etc. Those guys weren't icons right of the back when they first appeared in comics. They took time to develop their icon images. Who's to say Iron Man can't do the same?

While I agree RDJ is a starting point I disagree with the top 3 taking a long time to become established. They were nigh-instantly popular when they were created due to the reason they brought something unique to the medium for example:

  • Superman was created to be a guy of immense power, a heart of gold and the eptiome of all that is good. He basically the coined the whole hero stereotype.
  • Batman took off due to the fact he was just a human but still capable of making a difference enviable to those who have fully fledged super-powers thus taking the whole super-hero state and making it relatable in a way it wasn't before (that way being that Bruce Wayne is a simple human albeit a very motivated and wealthy one).
  • Later Spider-man went on again to break an established mold which was that he wasn't well off, struggled with something as simple as paying the rent, had a hard time at school and tried his best in every situation regardless of the outcome which sometimes was worse than if he hadn't tried to help. The reason he gained popularity is for the simple reason that without the super-powers anyone could be Peter Parker.

Iron Man has not broken any mold. in fact he is a by-product of the standard set by the big 3:

  • Supermans type powerset flight, super-strength (albeit weaker) etc...
  • Batman's wealth and lifestyle
  • Spider-mans relatability in the fact that he does things wrong and makes a point of remaining human despite his immense power (Tony's drinking problem and narcissism are prime examples).

Iron Man while awesome hasn't done anything to break the established mold or change our view of the superhero franchise as a whole. He is basically a combo of the big 3 as they set the standard on what a hero should be. Something that is happening a lot recently. They are basically creating heros with the big 3's core components and putting them in the modern time. This makes them popular due to a relatable enviroment but it doesn't make them iconic and it doesn't make them sustainable.

In conclusion yes Iron Man is popular but I guarantee that he will not reach the same status of either Superman, Batman or Spider-man in my lifetime. He breaks none of the standard molds set forward.

#46 Posted by Bierschneeman (3987 posts) - - Show Bio

@wolverine08 said:

@blackdog2009 said:

To answer the question asked: NO

That's just wishful thinking from all those idiots in love with the wolverines and punishers and deadpools of comics. Look, I love other superheroes, Wolverine is cool, the Punisher has his appeal.. I have so many of their stories and runs. but NONE OF THEM HOLD A CANDLE TO SUPERMAN!!! Superman is THE superhero, the main man... he's no 'relic', people that want to force that ignorant thinking ,THEY are the relics, their way of thinking is a 'relic'. I see you out there... With your wishful thinking lists ((Wolverine08 and others) trying to elevate characters like IM and Wolvie into Superman status. It's amusing but foolish. You implying that Wolverine is anywhere near Superman's level of iconic status. Just stop it.

Call me the next time rock bands, singers, artists of all types write an IM song, yeah let me know when Wolverine gets a universal symbol that represents 'strength' and 'courage' like the big red S. Does a relic get a tv series that ran successfully for a decade?! Little kids go thru Superman phases!!! You noobs think Superman only just hit theaters? He was an office box star before any if these Marvel Superman wannabes.

You want a popularity list? Here:

1. SUPERMAN

2. Batman

3. Spider Man

4. Wonder Woman

that's it, nuff said.

You really don't seem to get that iconic and popular are two different things. Supes is more iconic than Batman, but Batman is more popular.

Um,I believe Iron Man already has a song after him.

Not arguing with you, just throwing the wrench..... Elric of Melnibone has had 3 or 4 songs about him (plus a 40 minute heavy metal epic recently and a band, Domine, who has themed all five of their albums on the Elric Saga starting in 1983), one of which in an album that hit top charts in 1981 and two other songs co written by the same band and same author ended up in the Heavy Metal Movie (a definite pop culture icon) but Ill be willing to bet you have never heard of Elric.... or the author Michael Moorcock.

again just a monkey wrench

#47 Posted by dtm1980 (240 posts) - - Show Bio

Of course he's a relic, just like most of DC and Marvel's most established and travelled characters are, but he will always be relevant because he represents to DC what Captain America does to Marvel. He's not just a superpowered being, he's THE superpower (the USA), the old glory of a country founded on freedom etc. So even when he becomes irrelevant, he can still be used to symbolise poor political and military decisions in that country's current standing. That's also why nobody will ever completely replace our favourite classic leads either. Nobody represents something so huge so simplistically and there isn't a character that has the same impact today without counting on so much notoriety and modernisation to the point where their values become muddled.

#48 Posted by Wolverine08 (42477 posts) - - Show Bio

@strider92:

Ah, very well said. I personally think Tony has a small chance, but great break down of superhero archetypes.

#49 Posted by Mxyzptlk_CV (1163 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman has evovled beyond comics he's like Batman and Spider-man in the fact he's iconic. Is he a relic? Sure he's old but that doesn't make him any less recognizable. Characters like Iron man, Captain America etc.... are flavor of the month characters due to good movies and a great on-screen portayal. Superman, Batman and Spider-man will generate interest regardless of how they are portayed or what media they appear in.

The only other character that could be considered anywhere near their level of pop-culture influence is Wonder Woman but characters like Iron Man are still a far-cry from the same level as the other 3 i've mentioned.

The top is and will be for a LOOOONG time to come:

  • Superman
  • Batman
  • Spider-man

Simple as that.

this

#50 Posted by Cezar_TheScribe (2615 posts) - - Show Bio

It is not what Superman stands and the the fact that he is a classical hero is what makes him a relic it is his power. People today don't want to see stories about Godlike beings, that want to see regular people in extraordinary situations.

I don't mind stories like that.