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#1 Edited by ssejllenrad (12780 posts) - - Show Bio

Superman is the boyscout. Superman is the embodiment of human idealism. But why is it that most stories that involved them fighting, Supes is the bad guy?

We have DKR where he was a government puppet. If it wasn't for TDK2, he wouldn't have "seen" the light. Justice Gods have him as the leader of the elitist tyrannical regime and although Bats was also a part of that team, he was the one who eventually became the hero as well. One can argue Kingdom Come had Supes on the "better" side but it was still him who almost snapped towards the end. And Bats wasn't even a villain at that story. Another thing is Hush. Supes was mindcontrolled and Bats is again the protagonist (granted it was a Batman arc, we still don't see it from the other side with Superman arcs). And we also have Injustice. Superman (at least a version) was the big bad, parallel universe aside, with Bats being the hero.

I know it would be quite "cheap" to have Superman beat lowly ol' Batman (cause that's going to happen if he was the hero and Bats was the villain). But why do we always have to see Superman compromising his principles and going evil? That, for me, is the biggest reason Batman "always win" against him. It's because Bats is the hero and Superman is the villain.

Is it just because Bats is more incorruptible?

#2 Posted by RDClip (1069 posts) - - Show Bio

No, Batman is not more incorruptable than Supes. They both are staunchly committed to their moral code.

The thing is that even though I would like to see Batman take Luthor's place in a elseworld's story, Superman proves a much more immediate threat if he were to go bad or be mind controlled. Batman would have to go years planning his diabolical scheme from the shadows. Though there is a problem that some writers (cough Frank Miller) choose to tear down Superman to build up Batman which is something I wholeheartidly oppose.

#3 Posted by ssejllenrad (12780 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip said:

No, Batman is not more incorruptable than Supes. They both are staunchly committed to their moral code.

The thing is that even though I would like to see Batman take Luthor's place in a elseworld's story, Superman proves a much more immediate threat if he were to go bad or be mind controlled. Batman would have to go years planning his diabolical scheme from the shadows. Though there is a problem that some writers (cough Frank Miller) choose to tear down Superman to build up Batman which is something I wholeheartidly oppose.

I would love to see Batman as an Ozymandias type of villain against Superman.

#4 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

Because Frank Miller is a tool when it comes to writing supes, and Dini is a batfanboy. The batgod has swayed writers to his side.

#5 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

Because Frank Miller is a tool when it comes to writing supes, and Dini is a batfanboy. The batgod has swayed writers to his side.

Wait, Dini, what?

#6 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip said:

No, Batman is not more incorruptable than Supes. They both are staunchly committed to their moral code.

The thing is that even though I would like to see Batman take Luthor's place in a elseworld's story, Superman proves a much more immediate threat if he were to go bad or be mind controlled. Batman would have to go years planning his diabolical scheme from the shadows. Though there is a problem that some writers (cough Frank Miller) choose to tear down Superman to build up Batman which is something I wholeheartidly oppose.

I would love to see Batman as an Ozymandias type of villain against Superman.

You know what...that'd actually be pretty awesome...

Just DON'T have Alan Moore write it...the dude's nuttier than squirrel poo now adays.

#7 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees: loved the guy for making the animated series with timm, but they keep pushing that batman agenda man. Just like the rest of DC.

#8 Edited by Veshark (8521 posts) - - Show Bio

It's not that one is more incorruptible than the other - at the end of the day they're both still fallible (Superman less so, probably). But it's just that the idea of the unstoppable Superman being an antagonist probably serves as a more interesting threat than Batman going evil. The whole idea of 'absolute power corrupts absolutely', I suppose. In the case of DKR, Hush, and Kingdom Come, Superman's power serves as an interesting foil to Batman's smarts.

That being said, it is a noticeable trend. I would like to read a story where Batman is the one who compromises his morals and goes rogue. The closest one I can think of is Tower of Babel (he endangers his friends as a result of his plans), and even then, that's reaching.

#9 Posted by ssejllenrad (12780 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

I would like to read a story where Batman is the one who compromises his morals and goes rogue.

This is the whole idea why I even started this thread. I want to see this happen.

#10 Edited by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

It's not that one is more incorruptible than the other - at the end of the day they're both still fallible (Superman less so, probably). But it's just that the idea of the unstoppable Superman being an antagonist probably serves as a more interesting threat than Batman going evil. The whole idea of 'absolute power corrupts absolutely', I suppose. In the case of DKR, Hush, and Kingdom Come, Superman's power serves as an interesting foil to Batman's smarts.

That being said, it is a noticeable trend. I would like to read a story where Batman is the one who compromises his morals and goes rogue. The closest one I can think of is Tower of Babel (he endangers his friends as a result of his plans), and even then, that's reaching.

Well, there's an old elseworld's where he takes over Gotham and it ends with him being killed by the mob, I think.

#11 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@nerx said:

@hewhosees: loved the guy for making the animated series with timm, but they keep pushing that batman agenda man. Just like the rest of DC.

Yeah...I noticed that ESPECIALLY in the last episode of season 2 of Justice League Unlimited (the one before season three) where Amanda Waller said that, out of all of the people she had met in the League, none could prove the equal of Batman and Terry more or less agreeing with her.

I wouldn't mind it so much if hindsight wasn't such a bitch with the fanwankery.

#12 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees: Its just because batman is grimdarl/moody/brooding that the writers can circlejerk around for, nobody there gives two sh!ts about the good guys anymore (I am looking at you "Goddamn Batman" Miller). Everything wholesomedied in the nineties when people want to flush down continuity for the sake of edginess.

#13 Posted by Deadcool (6809 posts) - - Show Bio

I can see Batman becoming nuts before Sups.

#14 Posted by Veshark (8521 posts) - - Show Bio
#15 Posted by UltimateSMfan (1168 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadcool: especially now that Damian's dead and all the torture he took and will continue to take from the joker and also wit the tools at his diposal he can easily crack and pose a threat, n literally no one is that strong to take so much punishment n not crack n they say superman is unrealistic......

#16 Edited by Deadcool (6809 posts) - - Show Bio

@ultimatesmfan: Batman is popular, they write him expecting always the best from that character, and that is sad.

#17 Posted by UltimateSMfan (1168 posts) - - Show Bio

@deadcool: that's true, but srsly giv him that human flaw that everyone has, that's why I love the hush story so much if not for commissioner G batman wldve crossed the line and killed the joker,that really downplayed the whole bat god aspect and showed us that he is human n that's what he's supposed to be n stories like that are awesome.

#18 Posted by Black_Claw (2814 posts) - - Show Bio

I'd love to see a story where Batman is the bad guy for once. But then again, the higher ups at DC and fanboys would never let their dear Dark Knight to be portrayed in a bad light.

#19 Edited by PrinceAragorn1 (14192 posts) - - Show Bio

I personally don't think batman has anything over superman in almost any catagory, and this one is no exception either.

#20 Edited by TheAcidSkull (15924 posts) - - Show Bio

Honestly, lets consider this for a second, i like both characters, But who would be more of a threat? a Human or a Superpowered alien? DUH!

#21 Edited by SOG7dc (6713 posts) - - Show Bio

@princearagorn1:

batman more skilled h2h and he's a better strategy. if u give batman prep, and I know we joke around about this a lot, but he can make a plan to beat damn near anybody. he's better than superman in those two respects

#22 Edited by Lvenger (16049 posts) - - Show Bio

It's unfair that it's always Superman who goes bad in alternate stories when Batman is the more likely one to go evil.

#23 Edited by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

It's unfair that it's always Superman who goes bad in alternate stories when Batman is the more likely one to go evil.

This, batman's real power is mind control that spreads beyond the 4th wall. Making people believe he is the best.

#24 Posted by TDK_1997 (13689 posts) - - Show Bio

They both are the good guys of the good guys but Superman always ends up bad in alternate stories and that is like that because many people have said that your power can corrupt you.Batman's morals are too high for him to make him snap.He can be broken and put up to something that will make him kill and he can be corrupted but as we all know it won't happen because of his morals.

#25 Posted by LaserLambert (635 posts) - - Show Bio

The reason Superman goes mad with power and Batman doesn't, which I believe is the real question of the thread, is that Superman going mad is more interesting, if Batman loses his mind.... all he had was his mind to begin with.

#26 Edited by w0nd (2025 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad: if it makes you feel better there was a superman batman issue where bats got supermans powers and basically became a bully. Superman claims It wasn't batman's fault and he was overwhelmed and not in control, but Bruce assures him that's just an excuse people are making for him.

#27 Edited by Eternal19 (2074 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that it would be interesting to see what would happen if batman went bad especially since he has plans to fight the justice League. I would like to see DC make that happen. Because Im sick of all the batwanking thats been going on at DC

#28 Edited by jointron33 (1902 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19: it's not done yet. Frank Miller still has to bust a few more nuts.

#29 Edited by The Stegman (20749 posts) - - Show Bio

I think that it would be interesting to see what would happen if batman went bad especially since he has plans to fight the justice League. I would like to see DC make that happen. Because Im sick of all the batwanking thats been going on at DC

Closest thing you'll get is Owlman

#30 Posted by fiodestromus (722 posts) - - Show Bio

Well There both pretty much the same when it comes to morals

but the only difference is:

That one has powers and if you think about it Superman could end all crime if he wanted to by killing all the villains.

It's probably the same though the only difference is you piss off Batman enough

he drives his knee through your head you have brain damage

You piss off Superman enough

He drives his knee through your head and you wonder why your watching you body being held by Superman from halfway down the street

#31 Posted by PowerWoman (3256 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont like batman anyway

#32 Edited by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

I dont like batman anyway

Blasphemer!

#33 Posted by PowerWoman (3256 posts) - - Show Bio
#34 Edited by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees: ..................

You just hate batwank fanboys. You don't REALLY hate Batman.

#35 Edited by Teerack (4549 posts) - - Show Bio

Batman is more willing to do what needs to be done. He'd kill a whole planet if he needed to.

And Death in the Family(one where Jason died) and now requiem with Damion dying have kind shown Batman needs other people to keep himself form becoming a monster.

#36 Edited by Veshark (8521 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack said:

Batman is more willing to do what needs to be done. He'd kill a whole planet if he needed to.

H'whuh? Are you referring to the Supergirl storyline?

#37 Posted by PowerWoman (3256 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees: yep,but sometime DC make batman toooooo ridiculous

#38 Posted by Teerack (4549 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@teerack said:

Batman is more willing to do what needs to be done. He'd kill a whole planet if he needed to.

H'whuh? Are you referring to the Supergirl storyline?

Probably.

#39 Posted by Veshark (8521 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack

...huh? Are you or are you not referring to the Supergirl story from Superman/Batman?

Because if you were, Batman threatening to blow up Apokolips if Darkseid didn't forswear Kara was obviously a bluff. Unless you're using hyperbole when you say that he'd kill a whole planet if he needed to.

#40 Posted by Teerack (4549 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@teerack

...huh? Are you or are you not referring to the Supergirl story from Superman/Batman?

Because if you were, Batman threatening to blow up Apokolips if Darkseid didn't forswear Kara was obviously a bluff. Unless you're using hyperbole when you say that he'd kill a whole planet if he needed to.

The story from Superman/Batman and also batman's contiguous plans, and some other stuff. Personally I've always thought DC did a very good job at get the point across that batman would do what he needed to be done. Hell he ripped frankinstine apart last week to try and being back his son.

#41 Posted by Veshark (8521 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack

While I agree that Batman would go to extreme lengths to do what he feels need to be done - I don't think he'd ever condone murder, let alone the destruction of an entire planet. Even his JLA contingency plans were meant to be non-lethal.

#42 Posted by Teerack (4549 posts) - - Show Bio

@veshark said:

@teerack

While I agree that Batman would go to extreme lengths to do what he feels need to be done - I don't think he'd ever condone murder, let alone the destruction of an entire planet. Even his JLA contingency plans were meant to be non-lethal.

I think if Bruce didn't have a support group that he would have crossed the no murder line a long time ago.

#43 Edited by Veshark (8521 posts) - - Show Bio

@teerack

Yeah, I can agree with that part. Even Batman needs someone to reel him in every now and then.

#44 Posted by UltimateSMfan (1168 posts) - - Show Bio

Has anybody been reading the recent batman and red robin, batman and redhood issues?? Batman's a total A hole in those,doin what he did to Jason is so incredibly mean and insulting and scarring!! That really shocked me.

#45 Edited by drgnx (3513 posts) - - Show Bio

A rogue Batman vs Superman would be boring...

Batman is already closer to the edge so it is less of an impact. Also Superman taking on Batman causes issues because Batman is still the underdog, so it is loose-loose because either you root for the Bad guy or the bully.

Even if Bats deserves it, nostalgia will always linger unless they make him a complete a-hole, but that takes away the concept of "tragic fall" usually associated with these types of battles - I'm not counting mind-control fights because there is no bad-guy there and it normally ends with the controller being the real loser. Plus Batman lost his parents, already, while Superman has not experienced such a close lose, it also makes it less likely for Batman to go off the rails even if someone else close to him dies. And, lets face it, they have shown him withstand Jason and Damian's deaths at this point in cannon, the way he handled those (including Dick's Injustice demise) makes more sense considering his childhood trauma. I say this vs. the universe where he did go off the rails, it just didn't seem as fascinating (it was like Bat-punisher) and even then he was still a good guy like TDKR.

On top of Superman's fall having a larger impact, and Batman having the underdog factor, Superman's holding back still allows him some saving grace. So combine that with the tragic events that sets him down the wrong path and DC can cast Superman as the bad guy without it tinting is normal image.

#46 Posted by guttridgeb (4831 posts) - - Show Bio

No, I'm pretty sure that Superman is more often made evil partly because it gives an element of the best of them being corrupted and partly because it makes for a more interesting story.

#47 Posted by jesusdisciple001 (541 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope

#48 Posted by THEOCITYLEGEND (1099 posts) - - Show Bio

@eternal19 said:

I think that it would be interesting to see what would happen if batman went bad especially since he has plans to fight the justice League. I would like to see DC make that happen. Because Im sick of all the batwanking thats been going on at DC

Closest thing you'll get is Owlman

THIS SCENE WAS SO EPIC! I absolutely loved Owlman, he was a terrific villain. One of the reasons I always loved Owlman and Prometheus was they both showed what Batman would be like if he was a villain. Total badass!

#49 Edited by THEOCITYLEGEND (1099 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

A rogue Batman vs Superman would be boring...

Batman is already closer to the edge so it is less of an impact. Also Superman taking on Batman causes issues because Batman is still the underdog, so it is loose-loose because either you root for the Bad guy or the bully.

Even if Bats deserves it, nostalgia will always linger unless they make him a complete a-hole, but that takes away the concept of "tragic fall" usually associated with these types of battles - I'm not counting mind-control fights because there is no bad-guy there and it normally ends with the controller being the real loser. Plus Batman lost his parents, already, while Superman has not experienced such a close lose, it also makes it less likely for Batman to go off the rails even if someone else close to him dies. And, lets face it, they have shown him withstand Jason and Damian's deaths at this point in cannon, the way he handled those (including Dick's Injustice demise) makes more sense considering his childhood trauma. I say this vs. the universe where he did go off the rails, it just didn't seem as fascinating (it was like Bat-punisher) and even then he was still a good guy like TDKR.

On top of Superman's fall having a larger impact, and Batman having the underdog factor, Superman's holding back still allows him some saving grace. So combine that with the tragic events that sets him down the wrong path and DC can cast Superman as the bad guy without it tinting is normal image.

They could do an else world where Batman serves as an Owlman/Ozymandias/Prometheus type villain. Owlman was an alternate version of Batman and Prometheus was basically created as the anti-Batman and they have both demonstrated that they are terrific and threatening villains. I do agree with what you said though, its kinda hard to create a tragedy that would push him over the edge seeing as how he already has taken so much. I would also find it hard to root for Supes and the rest of the League vs Batman seeing as how he is the underdog and he has already experienced so much tragedy.

#50 Edited by drgnx (3513 posts) - - Show Bio

@theocitylegend:

I think I was being too harsh when I said it would be boring, I think the effect of Batman (or anyone other than maybe Flash) turning bad would be less than Superman, but the story could still be written well.

To give more context, I'm just thinking along the lines of how several Good guys have gone shady in Injustice comics, and the main focus is sill largely on Superman, not to mention Ultraman seems to get the biggest focus out of his Earth-3 and Anti-matter Universe team-mates. Then there is guys like Cyborg Superman and Bizzarro who also show there is a strong following for evil Supermen (plus SuperDoom is now Doomsday remade in a more Superman image, in fact he is Superman made corrupt by a 5th dimension imp in another reality for the sole purpose of taking out other Supermen).

(Mind you, the main E-3 and AMU villians are actually different people who fill similar roles to the main stream universe. It also allows DC to turn them into real villains with minimal impact on the image of their counter-parts)

However I'm perfectly open to the idea that, if pushed right, DC could promote good stories with other "heroes gone bad" as the focus just as well as evil Supermen.