#1 Edited by DRUDOX19 (197 posts) - - Show Bio

To me TDKR was frank showing anger on how superman was being written at the time, looks like he wasn't a fan of Brynes run and he was in full support of Alan Moores Superman year One pitch similar to Batman Year One by Frank, but Alan scrapped it and did Watchmen because the Superman Year One pitch was too political for a Superman book and DC said no ( we would have had a very different modern superman if Alan Moore were to write it would we ) strange. I really don't think Frank hates Superman i think he misses the Social Crusader version of Superman from the golden age. Which i cant lie that aspect of superman's character and theme ( and the fact that writers don't write him has a Science Fiction character first then Superhero) has been missing for decades and its only recently the New 52 is bring that version back . Superman wasn't always about hope has people think, yes he did aspire people but there was a time where Superman the character represented the oppressed rising up against the oppressors. He was based on Moses after all the idea of him leading people to defend themselves. Jesus Superman is fairly recent but that's a discussion for another time.

I understand where frank was coming from, i mean yeah some writers forget superman was a Science Fiction character, Silver Age people point to being sci fi but it wasn't pure serious science fiction that asked the big questions . Siegel favorite film was Fritz Lang's Metropolis, which was a movie filled with a lot of themes of class warfare and social and political themes in them has well. Hey im rambling here but i understand where Frank is coming from with his portrayal of Superman. He doesnt even think WW represents what she used to anymore from Franks eyes not mine ( i always felt WW stayed the same in her beliefs to now it hadn't changed)

#2 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

Does anyone care what the loony sexist thinks anymore?

#3 Posted by BlackWind (8115 posts) - - Show Bio
#4 Edited by Guardian_of_Gravity (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

@blackwind: Truth, also as is customary for all Miller threads:

What does Frank think women are?

WHORESWHORESWHORESWHORESWHORES

#5 Edited by kasino (1814 posts) - - Show Bio

TDKR seems like the natural order of who these characters are. Just so happen to be from the viewpoint of Batman

Batman is an outlaw, a vigilanti who the government would want to stop

Supes is a god who didn't want to be seen as such and allows himself to a citizen and appointed to a position by the government

If he wrote for Supes in the same storyline, I think Bats would be seen as a A-hole who is trying to be a cowboy after Supes worked hard to get those types of guys out of the public and go on to be the entire army for the US and presumably the entire world. Some silently walked away others pushed him to point that he had to convict them to a punishment the government(not necessarily Supes) deemed fit.

its really the nature of a street leveler and a world buster. One see's the big picture and the other is on a more personal level. the difference between a gun on the streets and nuke in a silo. You feel away about both but one hits you as an individual and the other as a collective.

#6 Posted by RDClip (1385 posts) - - Show Bio

So Frank was pissed that Superman wasn't the same character he was 45 years (at the time) previously? Why should that excuse him tearing down the character to make Batman (who also was different from his golden age roots) look better? If he wanted characters to go back to their golden age roots, why didn't Batman use guns in DKR and viciously murder people like he did in the golden age?

He and his fans can make all the excuses they want, but Frank disrespects the character and he has never made an attempt to make Superman look good at all. If he were so damn passionate about bringing Superman back to his golden age roots why didn't he ever propose to write such a story?

#7 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (4447 posts) - - Show Bio

I don't buy it!

#8 Posted by kasino (1814 posts) - - Show Bio

don't seem like Superman fans don't want to be ok with Miller and TDKR.

If there was a ban on superheroes and Batman and others were fighting it. What would Superman do?

would he fight with the heroes and take over the government(because Supes and Bats together don't lose)?

Or would he side with the government?

Maybe he completely abandons the human race.

#9 Posted by DRUDOX19 (197 posts) - - Show Bio

I am not making excuses for Frank Miller i am just understand where he is coming from yes to me its a BS interpretation but i understand don't put words in my mouth has if i support Frank , i don't just want to understand where he is coming from that is all

#10 Edited by Endanger (195 posts) - - Show Bio

@drudox19 said:

To me TDKR was frank showing anger on how superman was being written at the time

And how was Superman being written at the time? John Bryne, Jim Starlin, Roger Stern wrote a lot of Superman stories during that time and they were all pretty good....I don't see how it was any different from the Batman's books.

Maybe he was jealous that Superman books were better than Batman books? Who knows.

#11 Posted by ssejllenrad (13028 posts) - - Show Bio

No, he doesn't hate Superman. It's not like he did to Superman what Quesada did to Spidey. No, he didn't voluntarily slaughtered the Man of Steel's character. Miller is, however, Batman's whore and therefore he is apathetic to the damage he does to other characters by being Batman's professional sexual slave.

#12 Posted by tupiaz (2257 posts) - - Show Bio

The whole Superman story of TDKR was one of the few things that I liked.

#13 Edited by TekTheNinja (776 posts) - - Show Bio

@rdclip said:

So Frank was pissed that Superman wasn't the same character he was 45 years (at the time) previously? Why should that excuse him tearing down the character to make Batman (who also was different from his golden age roots) look better? If he wanted characters to go back to their golden age roots, why didn't Batman use guns in DKR and viciously murder people like he did in the golden age?

He and his fans can make all the excuses they want, but Frank disrespects the character and he has never made an attempt to make Superman look good at all. If he were so damn passionate about bringing Superman back to his golden age roots why didn't he ever propose to write such a story?

#14 Posted by lilben42 (2688 posts) - - Show Bio

@drudox19: I don't think he hates Superman either. It's an alternate reality which means he can do whatever he wants with the characters. So I wouldn't take his portrayal of superman to heart, no one should. He made Superman apart of the government for the Batman's stories needs, not because he hates the character.

Frank Miller says "The most questionable thing I did was make Superman a government agent. If this had been a Superman story, I'd never have done that - and I know that, because I have a Superman story I want to tell someday. In this story, Batman was the hero, so the world was built around him."

I don't care about Frank Miller but this kind of reaction goes around alot with comic fans.

#15 Edited by consolemaster001 (6756 posts) - - Show Bio
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#16 Posted by Akindoodle (1050 posts) - - Show Bio

What's the difference between Moses Superman and Jesus Superman?

#17 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

Frank Miller is honestly one of the few writers I hate as a person. Read the script of Allstars batman 1 and see how he describes a half naked Vicky vale to Jim Lee. Or any of his rants on Islam or Women or Liberals.

The man is scum.

#18 Posted by DwightSpitz (577 posts) - - Show Bio

@kasino: That's exactly how I felt, things are different in the alternate TDKR universe, would Superman really just side with the superheroes & start toppling governments? Don't think so...

#19 Posted by ssejllenrad (13028 posts) - - Show Bio

The thing that pisses me off more is the overall influence of TDKR. From Justice Gods to Injustice, a lot of subsequent writers portray Supes as the corruptible being that Batman can take down should he wished it to be. It's pathetic and the ignorant fans who flock to wank Batman's junk because of these stories ruin Superman even more.

#20 Edited by lilben42 (2688 posts) - - Show Bio

@ssejllenrad: Right. Except in Injustice Batman couldn't take down Superman.

#21 Posted by TheAmazingImmortalMan (4447 posts) - - Show Bio

The thing that pisses me off more is the overall influence of TDKR. From Justice Gods to Injustice, a lot of subsequent writers portray Supes as the corruptible being that Batman can take down should he wished it to be. It's pathetic and the ignorant fans who flock to wank Batman's junk because of these stories ruin Superman even more.

this exactly this

#22 Posted by PowerHerc (86084 posts) - - Show Bio

Miller has never seemed to be very much of a fan of any non-street level hero.

#23 Posted by SandMan_ (4581 posts) - - Show Bio

Oh my God....Zack Snyder is looking for Miller for consult? Seriously?

#24 Posted by TekTheNinja (776 posts) - - Show Bio
#25 Posted by deaditegonzo (3728 posts) - - Show Bio

Im pretty sure I read an article where he basically called Superman a tool. I will try and find the article.

#26 Edited by SandMan_ (4581 posts) - - Show Bio
#27 Posted by deaditegonzo (3728 posts) - - Show Bio

@sandman_ said:

@deaditegonzo: He did?

@tektheninja: We all are.

Well, as of right now, all articles involving Superman and Miller are about the upcoming film he is consulting on. I will keep looking though.

#28 Posted by SandMan_ (4581 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: They pretty much just jumped the shark man...Miller??? MILLERR? Why not Morrison?

#29 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2990 posts) - - Show Bio

Miller is probably just one of many. And as Snyder isn't a crazy right wing sexist loon he'll hopefully ignore the guy who published poorly drawn islamaphobic screed.

#30 Edited by deaditegonzo (3728 posts) - - Show Bio

Miller is probably just one of many. And as Snyder isn't a crazy right wing sexist loon he'll hopefully ignore the guy who published poorly drawn islamaphobic screed.

Miller is right wing? I never knew.

#31 Posted by Eternal19 (2163 posts) - - Show Bio

Its obvious from his writing that he doesn't care for the character. Unfortunately Snyder is meeting with Miller to discuss the movie.

#32 Posted by UltimateSMfan (1632 posts) - - Show Bio

@sandman_ said:

@deaditegonzo: They pretty much just jumped the shark man...Miller??? MILLERR? Why not Morrison?

Exactly!!! he wrote arguably one of the if not the best superman story of the decade and his first 10-12 months on action were really great too imo and his entire Jla run....the amount of research Morrison does is incredible and he may have one of the best understandings about these characters,especially superman....if Z. Snyder is just meeting with miller cuz he wrote that shitty(sorry fr the lang but honestly couldnt think of a cleaner adjective) supes bats fight then no offence to him but he's an Idiot!!!

#33 Posted by JetiiMitra (9205 posts) - - Show Bio

It would make more sense if Miller wrote Superman as that crusader again rather than make him a government plaything, if he really wanted Golden Age Supes back.

#34 Posted by ssejllenrad (13028 posts) - - Show Bio

Just for the record, I don't think supes will be a government puppet in the sequel. I mean, wasn't that the whole point of that epilogue with that general?

#35 Posted by consolemaster001 (6756 posts) - - Show Bio

I mean he made supes look like a pathetic tool, not once but twice.

Online
#36 Edited by Black_Claw (3259 posts) - - Show Bio

@consolemaster001: And what's worse is that Zavk Synder is gonna be meeting with him in the wake of the announcement of the Superman/Batman movie. Damn it!

#37 Edited by consolemaster001 (6756 posts) - - Show Bio

@black_claw: I KNOW !! I was so pissed when TDKR was read at the reveai at comic con 13

Online
#38 Posted by TekTheNinja (776 posts) - - Show Bio

Miller has never seemed to be very much of a fan of any non-street level hero.

#39 Posted by overlord0 (5 posts) - - Show Bio

If he wants the original Superman back. Good for him, thats like the core of character for some. Though I hope it wont be another All star Batman and Robin

#40 Posted by Justthatkid (5839 posts) - - Show Bio

@lilben42 said:

@drudox19: I don't think he hates Superman either. It's an alternate reality which means he can do whatever he wants with the characters. So I wouldn't take his portrayal of superman to heart, no one should. He made Superman apart of the government for the Batman's stories needs, not because he hates the character.

Frank Miller says "The most questionable thing I did was make Superman a government agent. If this had been a Superman story, I'd never have done that - and I know that, because I have a Superman story I want to tell someday. In this story, Batman was the hero, so the world was built around him."

I don't care about Frank Miller but this kind of reaction goes around alot with comic fans.

When people see these "Alternate realities" You get stuff like this "Bats could whoop Supes did you see TDK Returns"

#41 Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1020 posts) - - Show Bio

I forgot what interview I read this from, but Miller once stated that he doesn't hate Superman. The reason why he wrote Superman so poorly was in order to make Batman look good/better. In fact, he said because Batman was the protagonist, he made the other characters antagonist and stupid compared to him in order to make him look the best. This is why I think Miller is a hack.

#42 Edited by Justthatkid (5839 posts) - - Show Bio

@josedriveratcr7: If he wanted to make Batman beat Superman he should not have lessened it doing so I hate when a character is made more or less durable, smart, etc just to make another character seem better.

#43 Posted by JoseDRiveraTCR7 (1020 posts) - - Show Bio

@josedriveratcr7: If he wanted to make Batman beat Superman he should not have lessened it doing so I hate when a character is made more or less durable, smart, etc just to make another character seem better.

I feel the same way. TBH, I was never a fan of Miller, but after reading that interview I've put him in the category of "overrated".

#44 Posted by lilben42 (2688 posts) - - Show Bio

@justthatkid: Yeah that's one of the bad things that came out of the story.

#45 Posted by joshmightbe (25870 posts) - - Show Bio

I loved TDKR as an elseworld type story but it showed an inherent misunderstanding of Superman's character by Miller, Superman doesn't stand for the powers that be, he stands for the right thing to do regardless of all else. Superman wouldn't allow himself to be used as a weapon, also his view of Batman was a little weird as well since Batman himself tends to be a lot more right wing than Superman, I mean not crazy tea party right wing but definitely on the more conservative side of things.

#46 Posted by Justthatkid (5839 posts) - - Show Bio

@joshmightbe: I just noticed how much Superman felt like Captain Atom in that movie.

#47 Posted by BlackWind (8115 posts) - - Show Bio

Didn't Miller say Batman was as good and pure a hero as you could find? That alone should tell you the man is insane. Even Batman written to his absolute best isn't that.