Frank Miller vs Bruce Timm: The Truer Superman

I actually liked Timm's Superman. I just didn't like it when his Superman interacted with Batman.

Anyway, it can be argued that Geoff Johns' Batman in Earth One is the truest depiction of Batman. As a man with no superpowers who jumps around buildings.

Anyone who thinks Miller writes a good Superman is a troll. Anyone who says Miller writes "the very faithful depiction of Superman" is trolling on a whole other level.

Mark Waid, Alan Moore, John Bryne and many others dont deserve such disrespect.

Why not? I loved the crossover episodes he had with him in Superman: TAS.

This should be good,nah this is brilliant. IMO Frank Miller's Superman,he may have been Batman's punching bag but he still showed a lot of depth and character,Timm's Supes barely showed any.

And that's why I voted Timm's Superman

jesus sh++ Timm as much as the batboi that he is presented superman in a better light than Miller, that guy doesn't deserve to be put in the names of good superman writers.

Johns Bryne Superman was actually Frank Miller Superman,TDKR served as the basis of the reboot of both Batman and Superman franchises. Earth One Batman cannot be truest depiction of the character even if the bolded part was the sole category to judge that particular characterization because we already have Year:One ,Zero Year,Batman Begins and Mask of the Phantasm ,those works did that and a lot more plus much better.

@superguy1591:

I just didn't like it when his Superman interacted with Batman.

Anyway, it can be argued that Geoff Johns' Batman in Earth One is the truest depiction of Batman. As a man with no superpowers who jumps around buildings.

Anyone who thinks Miller writes a good Superman is a troll. Anyone who says Miller writes "the very faithful depiction of Superman" is trolling on a whole other level.

he is the one that made people think that batman can do 'anything' to darkseid, so much as I like his series and JLU that is something that ruined the perception of setting to the modern fans. Second underline is true, but they would rather go with Allstar and the 'meme' crap on the net that puts him badass because he is grimdark. I would say 'degenerate' but troll is a good one for the third point.

That's Jeph Loeb,Timm Batman didn't do anything to Darkseid, second part is not true at all and I've already explained it,by that logic Injustice Superman is the best cause he can fly and lift buildings and ya know do super stuff.

He knocked him off balance

not supposed to happen, but besides his burst of bat-moments he's still a good writer

darkseid stood perfectly still after he was nudged

@entropy_aegis: check your history again. Bryne's reboot came out in '85.

Plus, Miller's Superman had no evolution. His story was left incomplete and the sequel is just...eww. His motivations betray the character of Superman too.

If Superman being used as propaganda for war bonds is the reason why Miller wrote him that way in TDKReturns, why did Marvel write Cap in a different direction.

If anyone should be against the Government it should be Iron Man who was created in the '60s and is anti-military industrial complex.

@ganon15: Doesn't really mean anything,DS still weighs around a 1000lbs at best,for a fictional peak human it shouldn't be hard at all.

He still did something to Darkseid !!! Lol

87 actually,unless you're telling me the reboot came before COIE itself,which is kinda impossible.

@entropy_aegis: technically '86, but yes, Bryne was given the task of rebooting Superman before Miller.

Also, I made an edit.

Pretty sure I never said Miller's Superman was the best of all(not even close),just better than Timm's imo,the sequel is crap for us Batman fans as well

The direction for Byrne Superman was firmly set by TDKR,that story was supposed to be the end point to Man of Steel and Year One.

Timm, by far. Miller's Superman isn't even in the same League as Robot Chicken Superman.

Maybe Timm. Miller's superman was just a travesty. Geoff Johns wrote batman and humanised him. Whereas Miller took a dump on the character and almost ruined him forever. Whatever Johns did he didn't ruin Barman's reputation for more than a month. Timm is no better though. He depowered Superman all the way down to the point that he struggled to lift a truck and bullets actually hurt him. He also made Superman a wimp. The only good thing he did was the cardboard thing but that was quickly ended with Superman's BS weakness to electricity.

But we are not talking about reputation or perception,mind you Miller hasn't written Superman much at all,maybe 6 issues in total,Johns has been writing Batman for years.

I see you complaining about Timm de powering Superman and then claiming Johns humanised Batman in the sentence,that's a double standard. That attack by Darkseid wasn't electricity,it was force field that enclosed Superman and activated all his pain receptors,its called the agony matrix.

Bruce Timm stomps. **** Frank Miller.

Miller's.

Timm's Superman was bad.

BB

@entropy_aegis: Timm's Superman actually cared about people. He didn't just side with the government just because they told him he was out of line (though Luthor might have been the reasoning behind that). Superman even cared enough about his teammates to go get them even when they fought against him in JLU.

Miller's Superman was dog poop. He was only there to be a punching bag for Batman. Why did he tear off Oliver's hand? Why did he think that he had to fight for the government when he's Superman? Why didn't he talk to Bruce and ask him to do the plan anyway?

That Super-Man is trash.

Bruce Timm slightly wins.

I like Timm's Superman. He's my second favorite in terms of non-comicbook Supermen. The only thing holding him back was the fact that his Clark Kent sucked major you-know-what. Also his power was inconsistent.

One was bland the other was bad.....

Both were equally embarrassing imo.

At least one didn't get completely owned by a bat

Power: They both suck

Character: Bruce Timm slaughters

That’s easy one. Timm’s Superman, while somewhat generic and bland, is miles ahead in terms of characterization and motivation compared to Miller’s mockery of Superman.

Timm's Superman had a larger audience exposure and it's where I felt the younger generation lost some respect for Superman and simply saw him as inferior to Batman. Batman owned him in every scene and for most seasons Superman with the exception of maybe Hereafter...was just a dumb brick who really was weak in terms of his abilities and how he uses them and he was boring as well personality wise until he suddenly could just beat Darkseid and still Lex got the last say while Batgod dodged Omega effect.

I'd say Bruce Timm dumped on SM more than Frank Miller. The only people who can love SM under Timm must really be blind. If he was that good...you have had the audiences respond differently to Superman today and not so many Batman cartoons and at least one SM cartoon since TAS.

Both got owned badly differently. TDKR Batman atleast had some prep and strategy, Timm decided that Superman should be a stubborn hypocrite, get caught of guard and flipped, TACKLE A HUMAN BEING TO A WALL, and then get pawned by Batman with only a sliver of kryptonite.

Personality boring? Outside of the Darkseid episodes, "The Late Mr. Kent", "Brave New Metropolis", "Where There's Smoke.." and the Cadmus-Story arc (going as far back as "A better World") all did a great job at giving Superman character depth. Yes he had a lot of weak moments but he wasn't that dumb in his own series either. I noticed he used his super-speed a lot more in STAS than in the Justice League series as well, not to mention was quick-thinking.

How was he a hypocrite?

This entire sentence is wrong. John Byrne's Superman was absolutely not Miller's Superman. The Dark Knight Returns was a stand alone title to be treated as a "what if" (or elseworlds if you want to get technical). At no point was Miller's Superman any sort of a basis for the Byrne reboot. That story didn't tie into it AT ALL let alone supposed to be the end point for Man of Steel.

It was 86 actually.

this

Don't forget Superbully in the Clash episode with Cap Marvel...the guy was essentially being a bitch to a kid. Then we had Cry me a river. I took a bullet for you. Stupid kid who knows nothing that is happening around him in Kid's Stuff. Timm is also another who thinks Superman apparently has to date Lois else he'll become a bully and dictator in .Brave New Metropolis. That is is like Injustice on a milder scale. Not to mention he made him spend years with a starfish stuck on his face in the future. God, when I think about it, Bruce Timm must really see Superman as an idiot.

Oh c'mon, you hated the Darkseid episodes? The best episodes of the DCAU?

neither

God, I've been through this so many times. Because for one he tells Batman there will be no vigilantism in his town, when he himself is a vigilante. He also makes Superman so easily angered when flipped and tackled a human. Superman has been shot by thugs and he's smiled, but if he gets flipped he goes ape sh*t? A flick of the pinkie would have sufficed, but that would make Batman looks uncool I guess.

@saint_wildcard: The Bruce Timm depiction of Superman while not perfect, is one of the best depictions and interpretations of the character. He was of a very high moralistic standard and his persistence to always solve a dilemma was evidence of his ambition. Watch the War-World episode of Justice League, despite being faced against a thug-like monster in the arena, he still sought to help him. In The Justice Lords episode - we're shown just how much at times he wants to kill, but will never --- a testament to self-discipline.

Sure, his power level was not that great but seriously? Getting flipped by Batman, while a negative, hardly impacts his character. DCAU Superman is one of the best versions of the character there is, character-wise.

My rant was about the confrontation with Batman. He wasn't just physically nerfed for it, but made an angry hypocritical fool for it. That entire confrontation was caused by Superman so that he can get pawned by a sliver of kryptonite. Character wise, I thought Timm's Superman was a bland board that never really got me into the character, heck I liked the Smallville version more. I like a Superman I can have a beer with (I don't drink but still), Timm's didn't feel that way to me.

@saint_wildcard: Why would you want Superman to be the guy that you can have a beer with? I'm not belittling your opinion or anything, I'm just curious. Atleast in my opinion, Superman is supposed to always have the moral high-ground, whereas a human can give in to temptation, or lie, Superman cannot. He can make the choice which is morally and ethically sound; almost always.

The beer thing is an analogy (if that's not a thing it is now) for likable, relatable and down to earth. A character who is growing and I'm on the journey with him seeing it. Timm's got a half ass origin of his Smallville years and came to the city as Superman. Fully prepared and ready to go. What you're describing is a holier than thou power figure that I can't see myself liking.

@saint_wildcard: The beer analogy you're proposing seems like it'd be better for the average joe, which for most versions of Superman, shouldn't really work. Superman is an idealist, but he's a better idealist that humans can ever be because of his ability --- his idealism is realistic and because of that, he has the weight of the world on his shoulders. I don't think it's necessarily 'holier than thou' but rather a character trait --- the sequence in Superman II, of giving his powers up and realizing he needs to regain them illustrated it well.