I guess we all can agree that Superman comics in general have been in mud for quite some time now.
And I'd like to "hear" the opinion of you, fellow Viners, on these three points.
What it's your belief that needs to be "removed", "kept" and "added", so Superman comics return to their old glory?
All opinions are welcomed.
I'd only ask that you'd stick to the three main points [Removed, Kept, Added].
Remove:
Depowerment: The purpose for this has been lost.
SID: give it back to him in a separate event from his powers, and in doing this, emphasize the reason why it was so important to him, make him and other important supporting characters remember what happened to him as well. Emphasis is that he connects to humanity through being Clark Kent. Otherwise he's some celebrity figure walking around.
His MMA look: Seriously, it's time to start maturing Clark into more of a Superman character, and failing to mature a character is an attribute of comics editorial that annoys me a lot.
His T-Shirt outfit: no really, I actually miss his Full Superman suit.
Keep:
Memory of what happened.
Supporting cast: Don't kill off or keep killed off Lois, Perry, Jimmy, etc. There's also no reason he can't be a different character while still having them around.
Add:
Development of Kryptonian technology.
Access to his fortress restored.
Events where he crosses over into alternate DC Universes, and gets a hold of items that he may lack, or meets people that he had as company in prior continuities, but who are dead in his own. (Meet The Kents, have a chat with Earth-22 Superman, etc.)
Those are my thoughts anyways.
Removed : current Superman writers, colorists and editors
Kept : Current artists except for the one who's on BM/SM.
Added : New writers, editors, colorist and PR team.
Remove: Everything Truth has done. The depowerment, the id being public, all of it.
Undo Vyndrk 's changes to Clark's past. End SM/WW.
in fact change everything. and Fire the editors and nearly all writers.
Keep Lois and Perry knowing. Lana and Steel the way they are. Greg Pak and Tom Taylor.
ADD. Bryan Q. Miller ( Smallville season 11) as head writer/ editor. Keith Rocafort as artist. Lois and Clark having kids. New villains.
Thank you all for your opinions. They're much appreciated.
It seems clear we all can agree that the teams making this arcs need some serious changes, and that DC needs to put down some ground rules when it comes to Supes.
All teams have had too much liberty to do pretty much what they wanted and look where we are now. With a arc that's stretched beyond welcomed, that people simple can't wait to get rid off and that's been nothing but a slow but surely train wreck.
We're not asking too much. Teams that actually now what they're doing. That bothered to read what others have done before so not to give readers conflicted information. And that are actually able to bring something new, stable, and good to the table.
Has for Clark and Lois, I only got this to say. Plus 20 years were enough. I'd much prefer to see Clark single or with a woman that's exact opposite of him, like Koriandr aka Starfire, than to see him and Lois again for the thousand time. Enough is enough and although not all might share this view, it's time for Kal/Clark/Superman to move on definitely from Lois. Every other character in comics as basically evolved beyond their supposedly soul mates, so why shouldn't Superman. Barry went beyond Iris, Hal went beyond Carol, Arthur went beyond Mara, Peter went beyond Mary Jane, Bruce went beyond Betty, Scott went beyond Jean Grey.
So cutting the big man some slack and letting him have new experiences is way much better than insisting in the same old gimmick and hope it works out.
Thank you all for your opinions. They're much appreciated.
It seems clear we all can agree that the teams making this arcs need some serious changes, and that DC needs to put down some ground rules when it comes to Supes.
All teams have had too much liberty to do pretty much what they wanted and look where we are now. With a arc that's stretched beyond welcomed, that people simple can't wait to get rid off and that's been nothing but a slow but surely train wreck.
We're not asking too much. Teams that actually now what they're doing. That bothered to read what others have done before so not to give readers conflicted information. And that are actually able to bring something new, stable, and good to the table.
Has for Clark and Lois, I only got this to say. Plus 20 years were enough. I'd much prefer to see Clark single or with a woman that's exact opposite of him, like Koriandr aka Starfire, than to see him and Lois again for the thousand time. Enough is enough and although not all might share this view, it's time for Kal/Clark/Superman to move on definitely from Lois. Every other character in comics as basically evolved beyond their supposedly soul mates, so why shouldn't Superman. Barry went beyond Iris, Hal went beyond Carol, Arthur went beyond Mara, Peter went beyond Mary Jane, Bruce went beyond Betty, Scott went beyond Jean Grey.
So cutting the big man some slack and letting him have new experiences is way much better than insisting in the same old gimmick and hope it works out.
So if Clark and Lois where put back together you would not read a single Superman comic even if they did something different with it or the main story arcs where good?
Changes: Fire Berganza and find a new editor for the Superman line, possibly Doyle in a dream world or someone else good at editorial without being too controlling or overseeing.
End Truth and everything it entails: bring back Superman's powers, Clark Kent being a secret identity once again with the exception of Lois, Jimmy and Perry White still in the know. And have Superman act his age like a proper adult for once, let alone acting like a superhero.
End the Superman/Wonder Woman relationship and keep Superman single for a while.
Either get Pak and Yang to write the Superman they promised to or replace them with new writers instead.
Keep Superman line separate, no more events and let the Superman line breathe so to speak. Each writes own stories.
Lastly, to be extra unrealistic, bring back Joe Kelly, Kurt Busiek, Bryan Millar and Sholly Fisch as the main Superman writers.
@lvenger: Kelly recently did an ama on reddit and I asked him if he would write Superman again. He said he would but only in a mini or ogn format. Maybe if DC offers him a good deal he might change his mind but I don't think he'll write an ongoing again.
Remove: The current editorial/Yang, mostly everything Truth has done, and his overly aggressive attitude
Keep: Pak/Kuder, Lois knowing his secret,
Add: Kelly, Johns, Millar, Morrison, or Whedon (His astonishing run is my favorite and I always wondered what he could do with Superman), as writers, re-introduce Maxima into the Superman mythos, a department wide rule to limit mind control/loss of power/evil Superman stories as much as possible, and his Morrison n52 attitude sprinkled with some Pak and Johns
Of course I would read it. As long as the comic was not entirely about the two of them. If it was about they getting married (once again) or getting kids, I'd much more probably not read that comic. And wait for comics that were about Superman being Superman.
Lois would be just a annoyance to me, not a wall.
@deathfalcon182: Thanks I'm glad to hear you asked that question of him. Shame to hear he's not interested in doing a Superman ongoing at the moment though, Kelly was definitely one of the better ongoing writers of 2000s Superman writers. His own stories and one shots were tremendously entertaining since Kelly was one writer who I would consider wrote one of the best interpretations of Superman for me. Still, at least there's a silver lining with mini series or OGNs, maybe DC will reconsider after Truth falls through.
@lvenger: oh absolutely. He's a very entertaining writer, I've read Action 775 and recently picked up few trades from way back. The one shot where Superman goes to Christmas shopping or where he goes to asgard with WW and is trapped there for thousand years, all incredibly entertaining for being self contained stories. I'm really liking his work and definitely would read his whole run. If he ever comes back to write Superman, I would be so pleased.
Would be great if they could just start with a clean slate but without a full reboot I would want
Remove: Death of the Kent's, overly aggressive douchy broody personality, Superman/Wonder Woman relationship, everyone knowing Clark's identity, remove the 5th dimensional imps being involved in Superman's origin, remove the stories Hel on Earth | Krypton Returns | Doomed | Truth, merge Supergirl and Power Girl into one character and change the Clark-Kara relationship to be a much nicer family type deal with lots of team ups, NO MORE EVIL SUPERMAN and NO MORE FIGHTING WITH BATMAN. Zod and Faora as they were introduced in SM/WW. Luthor should not be involved in JL and should be solely a Superman villain. Also remove Lana's needless involvement in Superman's stories. Superman having access to hyper advanced Kryptonian information and technology (it raises to many problems etc.) all he should have from Krypton is his baby shuttle and his grandfathers cape. Much of Krypton's past should be left as a mystery to him until he meets Kara. The story of Krypton also should not be a pleasant one, like Man of Steel they should be a failure as a race, a cautionary tale about the abuse and misuse of power, they made many enemies which Clark and Kara have to deal with the consequences of, like a sins of the father type thing.
Keep: The updated Daily Planet/Galaxy communications and have Clark work there. Jimmy knowing Clark is Superman. Keep Wraith as one of Superman's alien villains but with a different origin that has nothing to do with unchained. Keep Helspont as a major Superman villain.
Add: Superman powers should be reduced to Byrne era levels or near about (that bench pressing the Earth bs really irritates me). More emphasis should be placed on his intelligence to overcome his more powerful enemies. Add childhood friend Chloe Sullivan from Smallville as a friend and confident. Add Lionel and Lena Luthor into the story. Reintroduce Maxima as a serious character who can be both a threat and ally to Superman. The story should just have a more upbeat tone, Clark can still have doubts, fears, uncertainty and off days, he is a man after all, but at his core he is a kind and caring man who comes from a loving home and is sympathetic even to the plight of criminals, realising that they are often shaped by factors outside of their control, but isn't afraid to role up his sleaves and get his hands dirty fighting to protect the world and it's people.
@deathfalcon182: All of those are several of my personal favourite Superman stories too. Kelly has a good range in his writing. His work feels heartfelt, lighthearted, action packed and dramatic more often than not. If it's ever announced that Kelly will write another Superman project for DC, I would be so pleased with that news.
Thank you all for your opinions. They're much appreciated.
It seems clear we all can agree that the teams making this arcs need some serious changes, and that DC needs to put down some ground rules when it comes to Supes.
All teams have had too much liberty to do pretty much what they wanted and look where we are now. With a arc that's stretched beyond welcomed, that people simple can't wait to get rid off and that's been nothing but a slow but surely train wreck.
We're not asking too much. Teams that actually now what they're doing. That bothered to read what others have done before so not to give readers conflicted information. And that are actually able to bring something new, stable, and good to the table.
Has for Clark and Lois, I only got this to say. Plus 20 years were enough. I'd much prefer to see Clark single or with a woman that's exact opposite of him, like Koriandr aka Starfire, than to see him and Lois again for the thousand time. Enough is enough and although not all might share this view, it's time for Kal/Clark/Superman to move on definitely from Lois. Every other character in comics as basically evolved beyond their supposedly soul mates, so why shouldn't Superman. Barry went beyond Iris, Hal went beyond Carol, Arthur went beyond Mara, Peter went beyond Mary Jane, Bruce went beyond Betty, Scott went beyond Jean Grey.
So cutting the big man some slack and letting him have new experiences is way much better than insisting in the same old gimmick and hope it works out.
Um, how has Arthur gone beyond Mera? They're still together last I checked. She was just impersonated by her sister.
We've seen that Arthur can do what's needed to be done, even if it's Mera. Yes it turned out to be her sister, but if I remember accurately Arthur didn't know that from the start.
Also Future's End has shown us that those two are not written in stone.
To me one of the worst mistakes any publisher can do, is do the soul mates stuff. It looks unreal and it cripples the main character.
Couples that for decades were seen has being destined to be together have been apart now for years.
So if Superman and Lois stop being destined to be together and writers are left free to explore new options. Offers a character like Superman more freedom, more choice.
The thing that to me should remain unchanged in Superman is the presence of his adopted parents, and not kill them like they did in the New 52.
We've seen that Arthur can do what's needed to be done, even if it's Mera. Yes it turned out to be her sister, but if I remember accurately Arthur didn't know that from the start.
Also Future's End has shown us that those two are not written in stone.
To me one of the worst mistakes any publisher can do, is do the soul mates stuff. It looks unreal and it cripples the main character.
Couples that for decades were seen has being destined to be together have been apart now for years.
So if Superman and Lois stop being destined to be together and writers are left free to explore new options. Offers a character like Superman more freedom, more choice.
The thing that to me should remain unchanged in Superman is the presence of his adopted parents, and not kill them like they did in the New 52.
IDK, but I just don't like the idea of characters simply needing other characters as a crutch, for their morality. Back years ago, Manchester Black "killed" Lois Lane. What I liked about that story is not the fact that Lois Lane supposedly died but more the fact that he proved stronger than he actually was in numerous Elseworlds stories and refused to throw away his morality because he saw Lois Lane's dead body there in front of him. The whole having a character as a "crutch" is what really bugs me, even moreso the idea of them being destined, but rather the idea that one character's entire world and values DO NOT RELY on someone else's values. That's just plain awful for a character, and that's incredibly unrelatable to what is right in real life. You bring your own developed principles into a relationship, not lean on someone else. If you are leaning on someone else to have principles, that's just bad. Destiny, well, that's bad too, but then again, if we went on some kind of destiny, Superman would be even more disliked now, because I doubt plenty of people would find the Golden Age character in their liking.
I also think that since:
1) This is a different universe and a different character, he doesn't need to be with Lois Lane. I mean, he has a different personality, different attributes, made different decisions. The same is true with the new Lois as well. Plus, Lois really marrying Clark was a post-crisis deal. Lois Lane was a different character in the pre-crisis eras.
2) There already is a Lois and Clark couple around anyways. Why be redundant?
3) Get more stories. No really, get more, editorial had limits as to what would, and there's a lot of Elseworlds stories about Lois Lane by this point. I mean single, available, Big Barda wouldn't be so bad would it? Or how about he focus on getting a new job other than be a reporter, so he doesn't have to deal with the issues of honesty and ethics Perry mentioned when he was interviewed about having to fire Clark when he found out his SID, such as be a writer of books like he was in the Elseworlds Title "Secret Identity"? Superman right now is very different from the Superman we had in 1938, why can't he be different now, for the sake of getting new stories about him?
4) Who knows? Maybe he can eventually get the old Superman to come out of being secret from him to just offer him some insight and wisdom about how to handle being Superman, and act as an inspiring older role model?
Remove:New 52 Superman. Not the way you think. New 52 Superman is too much of a mess to be the main book Superman. That Superman is just wallowing in self-loathing and angst. Demote him, fix him in a limited book and then end with a high note. This includes ALL of his supporting cast. In a perfect world, remove the editors for the Superman main books.
Keep: Nothing from the New 52. Nearly every single villain was subpar to previous ones, and the supporting casts are a shadow of what they used to be. New ones are just wasted ion the end.
Add: New Supermen. Give the Post-Crisis Superman with a wife and child to an experienced Superman writer like Joe Kelly (Or Mark Millar) after Dan Jurgens gets off. Get Silver-Age Superman back in a title, too, and give it to an excellent Superman writer like Morrison or Waid (maybe Johns). Get other fresh writers to make some of their own Supermen while they are at it. Also, get Jimmy Olsen his own book, and get Max Landis to write him. The guy has enthusiasm, and he might reinvigorate the character. Add a Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes title, and have it have imaginative and fun stories with the colourful cast of characters like Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy, Saturn girl, etc. No Superman/Batman book nor a Superman/Wonder Woman book. Too many writers make it one-sided to one character.
Remove:New 52 Superman. Not the way you think. New 52 Superman is too much of a mess to be the main book Superman. That Superman is just wallowing in self-loathing and angst. Demote him, fix him in a limited book and then end with a high note. This includes ALL of his supporting cast. In a perfect world, remove the editors for the Superman main books.
Keep: Nothing from the New 52. Nearly every single villain was subpar to previous ones, and the supporting casts are a shadow of what they used to be. New ones are just wasted ion the end.
Add: New Supermen. Give the Post-Crisis Superman with a wife and child to an experienced Superman writer like Joe Kelly (Or Mark Millar) after Dan Jurgens gets off. Get Silver-Age Superman back in a title, too, and give it to an excellent Superman writer like Morrison or Waid (maybe Johns). Get other fresh writers to make some of their own Supermen while they are at it. Also, get Jimmy Olsen his own book, and get Max Landis to write him. The guy has enthusiasm, and he might reinvigorate the character. Add a Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes title, and have it have imaginative and fun stories with the colourful cast of characters like Lightning Lad, Cosmic Boy, Saturn girl, etc. No Superman/Batman book nor a Superman/Wonder Woman book. Too many writers make it one-sided to one character.
I have kind of imagined young Superman getting some mentoring from Pre-Flashpoint Superman, hope that DC does this and makes Old Clark into a type of "Yoda" to the young one, some torch passing too, and some outings with the two Supermen. We'll see if that's what they have in store though. It's an interesting story, IMO.
@heavenlydarkdragon, @diehard200904: Arthur tried to kill someone he thought was Mera but I'm not sure what that proves. I'm sure he still would have carried a torch for her. And I'm not sure an alternate future tale can be used to accurately judge the strength of their pairing. You might as well say Injustice is an accurate depiction of Superman.
The only option that a single Superman offers in terms of story telling is multiple love interests but other than that, there is little value in it. Superman/Wonder Woman for instance, does not need to be a romance and could just be a team ip book between platonic friends. Indeed, I'd say it would be better.
A permanent relationship is not the death knell of a story. Just treat the two characters as equals and it will be fine.
Lois has only been used as an emotional crutch in Elseword tales. She's never served that role in the mainstream continuity. And it's ironic you mentioned keeping the adoptive parents since they actually were used as emotional crutches with Clark always needing to go to them for advice.
Actually the Kents have always been Clark's rock. The only people he could trust 100%.
Lois made him doubt himself, made him emotionally unstable, she hold him back. Not intentionally most of the times, but because of the simple fact that she'll never truly understand him. His responsibilities. What it means to put others before ourselves. Lois for the most time, she's shown as a independent, bold, and careless character in the way that for a story she'd put herself in harms way, not because it was necessary but to prove her worth.
If she was such a emotional support for Clark, then during Lor-Zod aka Chris, time with them she was the character that offered Clark more resistance.
That's why to me. Clark doesn't need Lois. He needs someone that completes him.
I believe Big Barda would get even more resistance than Wonder Woman.
Some people are still stuck in the old, nothing new, Clois relationship.
They actually believe that Clois is a good thing. When has I see it, it's the most worn-out couple in comics. When people were giving s*** to Amy Adams saying she didn't represented the real Lois, many failed to see that much of the real problem is that people look at those two and don't believe in that relationship. It's no longer a story of people falling in love for the right reasons, but because they have to be together, no matter what.
Some are even using the Lois and Clark comic to defend that Clois is the way to go. Which is absurd.
I mean DC waits for N52 Superman comics to it rock-bottom with Truth, and then bring pre-Flashpoint Clois. How is that fair? To me it's a rigged game from the start. Although to be totally honest I've read Lois and Clark comic and it did nothing for me. I'm not even following it. Read the first comic and it was enough for me.
So has far as those two is concerned, I'd prefer Superman single, hell, I'd even prefer him gay than to see the Clois never-ending circle. That at this point brings nothing at all. So far not one person as been able to say in details why is Lois and Clark any good. All I read is the same things I've been reading for the last +20 years. Nothing new. Just the same old stuff.
@heavenlydarkdragon: Lois and Clark have had arguments like any couple but if that's your evidence that they shouldn't be together than any relationship is a failure. She's understood his responsibilities just fine. She did for 20+ years.
Amy Adams' Lois has been well recieved with only a vocal minority hating her. You may not like the realtionship but that doesn't mean it's worthless. Yeah, it's old but so are the Kents and you seem pretty adamant in bringing them back despite them having far less reason to be in the story (an adult Clark doesn't need his parents for emotional support).
I've seen Batman cause way more emotional stress and doubt for Clark than anything Lois has done. See the infamous, "the last time you inspired anyone was when you were dead speech". If Lois had said that fans would be calling for her head. Batman says it and nothing.
"An adult Clark doesn't need his parents for emotional support"... I'm sure you head the phrase art imitating life. Parents are always the greatest emotional support. It doesn't matter the age. And if you don't know this... Then I hope you only find this out years or decades from now.
Women come and go, parents, real good parents are for life. And if we want comic's to imitate life then it doesn't matter if Clark is kryptonian, having his parents there and don't having them, makes all the difference.
Lois was good at motivating Clark and covering up for him, but other than that, all that those two could've gone through, they've been through. So has far as I'm concerned, if Lois and Clark were never together again, until the day I die, it would still be too soon.
@heavenlydarkdragon: Well, single Superman actually was brilliant, but that is from the pre-crisis days where the writers knew how to make something that wasn't serious. I personally am not interested right now in Lois and Clark for the secrecy aspect. Why not interact with young Superman, who could use some kind of adult role model? I think that would be better than Superman having this rediculous on and off relationship and some rediculous pact with the Gods to save his life, which previews indicate. Maybe Lois and Clark will break old editorial boundaries, but I will wait and see about that. Right now, a little anime and old Superman from more brilliant minds is good for the soul, for me anyways.
@diehard200904: nah. Post-Crisis didn't need mentoring from another Superman to become his own man, and I don't think he'd want to.
@agent_z: @heavenlydarkdragon: If anyone wants a good relationship that doesn't end, try Elseworlds or real life, either of those two is better, because well, it's not some fickle editor/writer in charge. Otherwise, well a relationship is expendable at the cost of how many new stories they have left, or their own personal bias. And since there is a never ending demand for new stories, well, they just keep revolving the door, which appears the case with the Truth fiasco, where writers haven't given a clear chronology or even a clear understanding of DCYou lore. Heck, they pretty much force Clark to act whiny like he was Pre-Flashpoint Lois Lane in Our Worlds at War or the depowered Elseworlds Superman in JLA : Act of God. Which isn't good.
Superman is nowhere near as bad in his relationship problems as Spider-Man in One more day, he didn't do some stupid demonic pact, they just created a new universe with a new Superman, and he didn't end up a loser in his parents' basement like Peter Parker. Plus, I really do not see it as a bad thing if Lois Lane is just some platonic friend of Clark Kent right now, as this is a totally new universe. They have the married Lois and Clark elsewhere anyways, in CA. As for relationships Our Worlds at War was bad, even more painful than truth considering the outright backstabbing intent of asking Superman to let a fellow JLA member die. I would be contemplating divorce if my wife ever asked me to do anything close to what was asked if Superman by his wife when Imperiex attacked, I would also speak refusal right to her. Lois Lane is fine as Clark's friend, less of the writers making her an asshole to Clark in the DCYou is good too.
I don't see much to pull out fresh and new with Lois and Clark unless they make Lois a permanent Superwoman, or other things that editorial wasn't willing to do outside of Elseworlds during Post Crisis continuity.
I agree just let him be single , plenty of cool stories happened for the 50 + years that Superman was single, that showed him as brilliant, and were pretty campy too.
I mean , does Superman really need a phone booth? I think he needs a little bit of the pre-crisis personality, interact with the outside world as Clark Kent, etc.
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