#1 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

Just as the title says. I've been wondering what people thought about this issue (if there IS any issue) and, if so, how to make it all work.

#2 Edited by StrangeMan (411 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, yes, as long as writers remember what makes him stand out and learn how to exploit that, there shouldn't really be a reason why he would have problems standing out in a world where a similar superhero to him exists, especially considering the horrid amount of similar characters running around in the same world, and I'm not just talking about the DCU. Even now there's like 4 "Supermen" in the current DCU (Supes, Billy, Apollo, Majestic), and out of all of them, I'd say Billy is the one who stands out the most, he's a kid with the powers of Superman, that's it, that's enough of a premise to make stories that no other character could have, they just have to remember that.

But it's not like we should just forget about this issue, it's one that's been present since the day DC bought Fawcett and Captain Marvel, they didn't know how to make the character interesting in a world where Superman exists, I don't think that's a big problem under the hands of a capable writer but it's still present, and honestly, they should use that to reinforce the character. Put yourselves in Billy's place if the DCU existed, you would obviously have an inferiority complex, how could a kid do the job that Superman does?, well, there's another premise that could branch out several interesting stories, a journey about Billy trying to figure out what to do with his position as a Champion of The Gods, if he really deserves it and if the world even needs him. That story would be more interesting with the actual Billy, y'know, the optimistic one and not the douchebag we have nowadays, who's somehow more "complex" or "deep", but I don't wanna go into that again.

In short, yes, but it's still an issue that should be present even within the fictional world the character lives in, because the question of whether or not he can stand out in a world with Superman, could actually help him stand out.

#3 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

Well, yes, as long as writers remember what makes him stand out and learn how to exploit that, there shouldn't really be a reason why he would have problems standing out in a world where a similar superhero to him exists, especially considering the horrid amount of similar characters running around in the same world, and I'm not just talking about the DCU. Even now there's like 4 "Supermen" in the current DCU (Supes, Billy, Apollo, Majestic), and out of all of them, I'd say Billy is the one who stands out the most, he's a kid with the powers of Superman, that's it, that's enough of a premise to make stories that no other character could have, they just have to remember that.

But it's not like we should just forget about this issue, it's one that's been present since the day DC bought Fawcett and Captain Marvel, they didn't know how to make the character interesting in a world where Superman exists, I don't think that's a big problem under the hands of a capable writer but it's still present, and honestly, they should use that to reinforce the character. Put yourselves in Billy's place if the DCU existed, you would obviously have an inferiority complex, how could a kid do the job that Superman does?, well, there's another premise that could branch out several interesting stories, a journey about Billy trying to figure out what to do with his position as a Champion of The Gods, if he really deserves it and if the world even needs him. That story would be more interesting with the actual Billy, y'know, the optimistic one and not the douchebag we have nowadays, who's somehow more "complex" or "deep", but I don't wanna go into that again.

In short, yes, but it's still an issue that should be present even within the fictional world the character lives in, because the question of whether or not he can stand out in a world with Superman, could actually help him stand out.

Do you think making HIM the cosmic one instead of Superman could actually work out?

#4 Posted by Z3RO180 (6548 posts) - - Show Bio

What the heck are you talking about ?

#5 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

He's gonna have a tough time since Dc is so busy upgrading every other character to be on par with Superman. Wonder woman, Vibe , Cheetah, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, etc.. Maybe not all those guys, but the New 52 has been ridiculous with DBZ power ups. You gotta ask yourself where does Shazam stand in all of this.Shazam used to be the one guy you could count on to match Superman for decades. Now you gotta ask yourself, is he needed and he's one of my favorite Dc characters. You also gotta wonder when will Batman get a power upgrade, it wouldn't be a surprise, since WW is now the daughther of Zeus, and Vibe can tamper with the Speed force, lol!!!

#6 Edited by StrangeMan (411 posts) - - Show Bio

@strangeman said:

Well, yes, as long as writers remember what makes him stand out and learn how to exploit that, there shouldn't really be a reason why he would have problems standing out in a world where a similar superhero to him exists, especially considering the horrid amount of similar characters running around in the same world, and I'm not just talking about the DCU. Even now there's like 4 "Supermen" in the current DCU (Supes, Billy, Apollo, Majestic), and out of all of them, I'd say Billy is the one who stands out the most, he's a kid with the powers of Superman, that's it, that's enough of a premise to make stories that no other character could have, they just have to remember that.

But it's not like we should just forget about this issue, it's one that's been present since the day DC bought Fawcett and Captain Marvel, they didn't know how to make the character interesting in a world where Superman exists, I don't think that's a big problem under the hands of a capable writer but it's still present, and honestly, they should use that to reinforce the character. Put yourselves in Billy's place if the DCU existed, you would obviously have an inferiority complex, how could a kid do the job that Superman does?, well, there's another premise that could branch out several interesting stories, a journey about Billy trying to figure out what to do with his position as a Champion of The Gods, if he really deserves it and if the world even needs him. That story would be more interesting with the actual Billy, y'know, the optimistic one and not the douchebag we have nowadays, who's somehow more "complex" or "deep", but I don't wanna go into that again.

In short, yes, but it's still an issue that should be present even within the fictional world the character lives in, because the question of whether or not he can stand out in a world with Superman, could actually help him stand out.

Do you think making HIM the cosmic one instead of Superman could actually work out?

It could work, but I don't think that they should do it. He's a Champion of Gods of Earth, so I'd say that it would be more natural for the character to fight mystical threats from our planet and not aliens and cosmic entities.

#7 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees said:

@strangeman said:

Well, yes, as long as writers remember what makes him stand out and learn how to exploit that, there shouldn't really be a reason why he would have problems standing out in a world where a similar superhero to him exists, especially considering the horrid amount of similar characters running around in the same world, and I'm not just talking about the DCU. Even now there's like 4 "Supermen" in the current DCU (Supes, Billy, Apollo, Majestic), and out of all of them, I'd say Billy is the one who stands out the most, he's a kid with the powers of Superman, that's it, that's enough of a premise to make stories that no other character could have, they just have to remember that.

But it's not like we should just forget about this issue, it's one that's been present since the day DC bought Fawcett and Captain Marvel, they didn't know how to make the character interesting in a world where Superman exists, I don't think that's a big problem under the hands of a capable writer but it's still present, and honestly, they should use that to reinforce the character. Put yourselves in Billy's place if the DCU existed, you would obviously have an inferiority complex, how could a kid do the job that Superman does?, well, there's another premise that could branch out several interesting stories, a journey about Billy trying to figure out what to do with his position as a Champion of The Gods, if he really deserves it and if the world even needs him. That story would be more interesting with the actual Billy, y'know, the optimistic one and not the douchebag we have nowadays, who's somehow more "complex" or "deep", but I don't wanna go into that again.

In short, yes, but it's still an issue that should be present even within the fictional world the character lives in, because the question of whether or not he can stand out in a world with Superman, could actually help him stand out.

Do you think making HIM the cosmic one instead of Superman could actually work out?

It could work, but I don't think that they should do it. He's a Champion of Gods of Earth, so I'd say that it would be more natural for the character to fight mystical threats from our planet and not aliens and cosmic entities.

What do you think about Thor doing that stuff then despite being from a Pantheon of gods on earth?

#8 Edited by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

He's gonna have a tough time since Dc is so busy upgrading every other character to be on par with Superman. Wonder woman, Vibe , Cheetah, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, etc.. Maybe not all those guys, but the New 52 has been ridiculous with DBZ power ups. You gotta ask yourself where does Shazam stand in all of this.Shazam used to be the one guy you could count on to match Superman for decades. Now you gotta ask yourself, is he needed and he's one of my favorite Dc characters. You also gotta wonder when will Batman get a power upgrade, it wouldn't be a surprise, since WW is now the daughther of Zeus, and Vibe can tamper with the Speed force, lol!!!

I didn't necessarily mean power level wise. Mostly I meant story wise and stance wise.

#9 Posted by StrangeMan (411 posts) - - Show Bio

@strangeman said:

@hewhosees said:

@strangeman said:

Well, yes, as long as writers remember what makes him stand out and learn how to exploit that, there shouldn't really be a reason why he would have problems standing out in a world where a similar superhero to him exists, especially considering the horrid amount of similar characters running around in the same world, and I'm not just talking about the DCU. Even now there's like 4 "Supermen" in the current DCU (Supes, Billy, Apollo, Majestic), and out of all of them, I'd say Billy is the one who stands out the most, he's a kid with the powers of Superman, that's it, that's enough of a premise to make stories that no other character could have, they just have to remember that.

But it's not like we should just forget about this issue, it's one that's been present since the day DC bought Fawcett and Captain Marvel, they didn't know how to make the character interesting in a world where Superman exists, I don't think that's a big problem under the hands of a capable writer but it's still present, and honestly, they should use that to reinforce the character. Put yourselves in Billy's place if the DCU existed, you would obviously have an inferiority complex, how could a kid do the job that Superman does?, well, there's another premise that could branch out several interesting stories, a journey about Billy trying to figure out what to do with his position as a Champion of The Gods, if he really deserves it and if the world even needs him. That story would be more interesting with the actual Billy, y'know, the optimistic one and not the douchebag we have nowadays, who's somehow more "complex" or "deep", but I don't wanna go into that again.

In short, yes, but it's still an issue that should be present even within the fictional world the character lives in, because the question of whether or not he can stand out in a world with Superman, could actually help him stand out.

Do you think making HIM the cosmic one instead of Superman could actually work out?

It could work, but I don't think that they should do it. He's a Champion of Gods of Earth, so I'd say that it would be more natural for the character to fight mystical threats from our planet and not aliens and cosmic entities.

What do you think about Thor doing that stuff then despite being from a Pantheon of gods on earth?

As I said, it could work, he could be the cosmic Superman, but he shouldn't. He should be in closer ties to what makes the character shine, like the Rock of Eternity or Mary and Freddie, sure it would be cool to see him go against entities or alien warlords like Mongul or something, but it would only seem as natural as Batman going up against Darkseid, thing he does, but at a given time and place, usually with the JLA or Superman, but after he's done with that he goes back to his solo adventures where he takes on street level thugs and psychos, because that's the type of stories that complement the character the most. Still, it's not like we really need a cosmic Superman, just as much as we don't really need a mystic one, but out of the two Billy is better off with the mystic type, he could be cosmic, but he's better off with mystic. That's just imo anyway.

#10 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees said:

@strangeman said:

@hewhosees said:

@strangeman said:

Well, yes, as long as writers remember what makes him stand out and learn how to exploit that, there shouldn't really be a reason why he would have problems standing out in a world where a similar superhero to him exists, especially considering the horrid amount of similar characters running around in the same world, and I'm not just talking about the DCU. Even now there's like 4 "Supermen" in the current DCU (Supes, Billy, Apollo, Majestic), and out of all of them, I'd say Billy is the one who stands out the most, he's a kid with the powers of Superman, that's it, that's enough of a premise to make stories that no other character could have, they just have to remember that.

But it's not like we should just forget about this issue, it's one that's been present since the day DC bought Fawcett and Captain Marvel, they didn't know how to make the character interesting in a world where Superman exists, I don't think that's a big problem under the hands of a capable writer but it's still present, and honestly, they should use that to reinforce the character. Put yourselves in Billy's place if the DCU existed, you would obviously have an inferiority complex, how could a kid do the job that Superman does?, well, there's another premise that could branch out several interesting stories, a journey about Billy trying to figure out what to do with his position as a Champion of The Gods, if he really deserves it and if the world even needs him. That story would be more interesting with the actual Billy, y'know, the optimistic one and not the douchebag we have nowadays, who's somehow more "complex" or "deep", but I don't wanna go into that again.

In short, yes, but it's still an issue that should be present even within the fictional world the character lives in, because the question of whether or not he can stand out in a world with Superman, could actually help him stand out.

Do you think making HIM the cosmic one instead of Superman could actually work out?

It could work, but I don't think that they should do it. He's a Champion of Gods of Earth, so I'd say that it would be more natural for the character to fight mystical threats from our planet and not aliens and cosmic entities.

What do you think about Thor doing that stuff then despite being from a Pantheon of gods on earth?

As I said, it could work, he could be the cosmic Superman, but he shouldn't. He should be in closer ties to what makes the character shine, like the Rock of Eternity or Mary and Freddie, sure it would be cool to see him go against entities or alien warlords like Mongul or something, but it would only seem as natural as Batman going up against Darkseid, thing he does, but at a given time and place, usually with the JLA or Superman, but after he's done with that he goes back to his solo adventures where he takes on street level thugs and psychos, because that's the type of stories that complement the character the most. Still, it's not like we really need a cosmic Superman, just as much as we don't really need a mystic one, but out of the two Billy is better off with the mystic type, he could be cosmic, but he's better off with mystic. That's just imo anyway.

What kind of "mystic" threat do you suggest then?

#11 Edited by consolemaster001 (5587 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, captain marvel is unique.

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#12 Posted by StrangeMan (411 posts) - - Show Bio

@strangeman said:

@hewhosees said:

@strangeman said:

@hewhosees said:

@strangeman said:

Well, yes, as long as writers remember what makes him stand out and learn how to exploit that, there shouldn't really be a reason why he would have problems standing out in a world where a similar superhero to him exists, especially considering the horrid amount of similar characters running around in the same world, and I'm not just talking about the DCU. Even now there's like 4 "Supermen" in the current DCU (Supes, Billy, Apollo, Majestic), and out of all of them, I'd say Billy is the one who stands out the most, he's a kid with the powers of Superman, that's it, that's enough of a premise to make stories that no other character could have, they just have to remember that.

But it's not like we should just forget about this issue, it's one that's been present since the day DC bought Fawcett and Captain Marvel, they didn't know how to make the character interesting in a world where Superman exists, I don't think that's a big problem under the hands of a capable writer but it's still present, and honestly, they should use that to reinforce the character. Put yourselves in Billy's place if the DCU existed, you would obviously have an inferiority complex, how could a kid do the job that Superman does?, well, there's another premise that could branch out several interesting stories, a journey about Billy trying to figure out what to do with his position as a Champion of The Gods, if he really deserves it and if the world even needs him. That story would be more interesting with the actual Billy, y'know, the optimistic one and not the douchebag we have nowadays, who's somehow more "complex" or "deep", but I don't wanna go into that again.

In short, yes, but it's still an issue that should be present even within the fictional world the character lives in, because the question of whether or not he can stand out in a world with Superman, could actually help him stand out.

Do you think making HIM the cosmic one instead of Superman could actually work out?

It could work, but I don't think that they should do it. He's a Champion of Gods of Earth, so I'd say that it would be more natural for the character to fight mystical threats from our planet and not aliens and cosmic entities.

What do you think about Thor doing that stuff then despite being from a Pantheon of gods on earth?

As I said, it could work, he could be the cosmic Superman, but he shouldn't. He should be in closer ties to what makes the character shine, like the Rock of Eternity or Mary and Freddie, sure it would be cool to see him go against entities or alien warlords like Mongul or something, but it would only seem as natural as Batman going up against Darkseid, thing he does, but at a given time and place, usually with the JLA or Superman, but after he's done with that he goes back to his solo adventures where he takes on street level thugs and psychos, because that's the type of stories that complement the character the most. Still, it's not like we really need a cosmic Superman, just as much as we don't really need a mystic one, but out of the two Billy is better off with the mystic type, he could be cosmic, but he's better off with mystic. That's just imo anyway.

What kind of "mystic" threat do you suggest then?

I don't know, magic, wizards, demons, that kind of stuff, maybe make him go against other Champions of Gods (like Ibac, well, kind of), and they could still try to bring back some of his classic rogues, like Mr Atom.

#13 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2638 posts) - - Show Bio

@strangeman:

When Captain Marvel is written well he's the best example of a Golden Age hero from the 40's. He sees things as just black and white. Good guys shouldn't stoop to the villains level and the bad guys should always face justice. A lot of people may not like that because it's TOO simplistic, but that's the charm of Captain Marvel. He's a kid and looking at very complex and adult issues with a kids innocence and still manages to come out on top of villains that are quick to exploit his naivety. He can be on the same level as Superman or slightly weaker, but if his personality is in tact then it doesn't matter

#14 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

First off thanks for calling him Captain Marvel and not Shazam (Sorry Marvel comics Billy came first). Secondly I think he does stand out from not just Superman but from many others as well. Also Superman ripped the ability to fly off Cap not the other way around.

#15 Edited by StrangeMan (411 posts) - - Show Bio

@smart_dork_dude said:

@strangeman:

When Captain Marvel is written well he's the best example of a Golden Age hero from the 40's. He sees things as just black and white. Good guys shouldn't stoop to the villains level and the bad guys should always face justice. A lot of people may not like that because it's TOO simplistic, but that's the charm of Captain Marvel. He's a kid and looking at very complex and adult issues with a kids innocence and still manages to come out on top of villains that are quick to exploit his naivety. He can be on the same level as Superman or slightly weaker, but if his personality is in tact then it doesn't matter

Yet another reason why he stands out and is such a unique hero, sadly, with this "Shazam" we currently have, we'll probably just get a more whiny Superman with some extra magic powers. And people say that this was for the better...

#16 Posted by joshmightbe (24885 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's a question, if his name is Shazam now, how does he introduce himself without revealing his secret identity? His powers are activated and deactivated by saying the word Shazam so he'd pretty much have to show himself change every time he told someone his name.

#17 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's a question, if his name is Shazam now, how does he introduce himself without revealing his secret identity? His powers are activated and deactivated by saying the word Shazam so he'd pretty much have to show himself change every time he told someone his name.

Actually, he has to CONSCIOUSLY say the name with the intent on transforming.

#18 Posted by consolemaster001 (5587 posts) - - Show Bio

Here's a question, if his name is Shazam now, how does he introduce himself without revealing his secret identity? His powers are activated and deactivated by saying the word Shazam so he'd pretty much have to show himself change every time he told someone his name.

I agree !

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#19 Posted by Smart_Dork_Dude (2638 posts) - - Show Bio

@strangeman said:

@smart_dork_dude said:

@strangeman:

When Captain Marvel is written well he's the best example of a Golden Age hero from the 40's. He sees things as just black and white. Good guys shouldn't stoop to the villains level and the bad guys should always face justice. A lot of people may not like that because it's TOO simplistic, but that's the charm of Captain Marvel. He's a kid and looking at very complex and adult issues with a kids innocence and still manages to come out on top of villains that are quick to exploit his naivety. He can be on the same level as Superman or slightly weaker, but if his personality is in tact then it doesn't matter

Yet another reason why he stands out and is such a unique hero, sadly, with this "Shazam" we currently have, we'll probably just get a more whiny Superman with some extra magic powers. And people say that this was for the better...

I will be the first to admit the Marvel Family was a mess before Flash Point. Really it wasn't even the Marvel Family anymore, just Freddy Freeman as Shazam, though they kinda dropped that and kept calling him Captain Marvel in places. Now I like Freddy, in fact he's one of my favorite members of the Marvel Family, even if I think he needed a better super-name than Captain Marvel Jr or CM3(Personally I like the sound of Kid Marvel to be honest). I actually touched upon a similar topic in another thread in response to someone about the current state of DC and what the New 52 should have been about.

"Now I will admit, the pre-New 52 universe as it was at the time was a bit of a mess. I admit that. However a partial reboot, just removing somethings that DIDN'T work in the pre-New 52 would have gone a long way in making this work. Like Lian Harper dying and Roy Harper losing his arm and becoming a supervillain. This is one thing that could have been forgotten about. Mary Marvel turning evil TWICE and Billy Batson losing his powers. Again, could have been undone. The entirety of Amazons Attack and Countdown. All undone. You see? The New 52 could have been a chance to unburden the universe and clean away all the BAD stories that cluttered it, yet at the same time leaving it for the most part unchanged and allowing new stories to be told in a universe that while fresh to new fans, feels familiar and more likable to old fans."

#20 Edited by Press Oblivion (1643 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read this entire thread, but I feel that Captain Marvel would do better as an Earth 2 resident. I can see his character being a part of an Earth 2 Trinity with Power Girl and Huntress filling in the roles of their respective predecessors.

#21 Edited by colonyofcells (2038 posts) - - Show Bio

Since the powerful super heroes have different personalities, they should oppose each other. Martian Manhunter's new role seems to be to keep Superman in check or the Martian has his own plans. Apollo should have his own agenda. Majestic is probably out of control. Billy Batson should also have some serious disagreements with Superman on how to help the human species. Wonder Woman should also have serious disagreements with Superman.

#22 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13142 posts) - - Show Bio

He's gonna have a tough time since Dc is so busy upgrading every other character to be on par with Superman. Wonder woman, Vibe , Cheetah, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, etc.. Maybe not all those guys, but the New 52 has been ridiculous with DBZ power ups. You gotta ask yourself where does Shazam stand in all of this.Shazam used to be the one guy you could count on to match Superman for decades. Now you gotta ask yourself, is he needed and he's one of my favorite Dc characters. You also gotta wonder when will Batman get a power upgrade, it wouldn't be a surprise, since WW is now the daughther of Zeus, and Vibe can tamper with the Speed force, lol!!!

J'onn, Diana, and Cheetah were already on par if remember correctly.

#23 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (13142 posts) - - Show Bio

I haven't read this entire thread, but I feel that Captain Marvel would do better as an Earth 2 resident. I can see his character being a part of an Earth 2 Trinity with Power Girl and Huntress filling in the roles of their respective predecessors.

i thought that the JSA big three was supposed to be Earth-2's trinity?

#24 Posted by PowerWoman (3364 posts) - - Show Bio

PC shazam family was only can really match PC superman in raw power