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#51 Edited by buttersdaman000 (9728 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

So, I have one off remark and you get high and mighty on me whereas you have had a low key snide, high handed attitude since the beginning? Ok....

But anyways, thanks for the issue. I still don't think that Wally > Pre-Crisis Superman in anything but reaction speed, so I don't accept the validity of the feat at all. Like I said above, its contradictory and high-end. Feel free to call in Flash experts too

#52 Posted by Lvenger (20007 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Look my point there is that calling others sheep for agreeing with your opponent isn't a way to bolster your position. And when have I been snide in my responses? Feel free to point out such cases and I'll accept them or explain what I meant.

I just need to see who's still on the Vine because a couple of the people I was going to call in haven't been on the Vine in ages it seems.

#53 Posted by toptom (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000: I was talking about the White Martian one, not the Zoom one. Zum was the name of the White Martian Wally KOed which you'd know the distinction of if you paid attention to the feat.

And now it's my turn to revert the stance of your case. Prove that Anti Monitor was weakened with on panel confirmation or your statement will be as meaningless as the claims that Superman is the most powerful being on the planet when clearly that isn't the case.

first of all let me say that the flash doesn't fly. He can levitate at best. There are some instances of him jumping into space but that's all, for example this is the image that comes right after the one you have posted.

Here we can see that he grabs one of the gl's constructs and/or runs upon that beam. So the most probable thing here is that he has jumped right in that place from earth, maybe using some space debris or other beams just to utilize his firend's constructs to hit the Imperiex'sdrones.

Plus here you are a scan of the flash (even if it is Barry Allen) who says that he can't fly. I think that it is good even for wally since their powers are the same.

Then about the Antimonitor feat he WAS weakened.

Actually not only he was drained by dr light but his armor was heavily damaged by the efforts of those combined super-heroes. Saddly i couldn't find the scan in which is shown the hole they have opened in its chest.So the flash has hit him just after he was depowered and damaged.

Then i don't even get why Superman can not hit as hard (or even harder) than the flash. Wally and Barry can perform the imp because they can acheive light speed and Superman can too but , on the top of that, he can add his own super strenght to the mix; i mean he has almost destroyed the moon with a side effect of just ONE of his punches and it was stated like 3 or 4 times by different writers that he can destroy a planet merely with his fists. That is far and i mean really far from the damages that the flash can do.

However i think that Superman can avoid an imp...IF he is ready. He should be fast enough to fly into space before the flash can hit him, or he can can use his thunder-clap in tandem with his hv, or he can turn himself intangible, he can melt the ground... there are a lot of things he could do to slow him down in order to buy some time to reach the air.

#54 Edited by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza said:

..Just thought I'd say that in my short time on this forum, Lvenger is pretty much the strongest defender of Superman's honour I've come across, so if he says Superman doesn't have the punching feats that Flash does, I believe him! (PS they are both my favourite DC characters)...

I've always felt that by definition Flash's punch should be the hardest because Force = m x a and simply, Flash has more acceleration than anyone else. In reality a lightspeed punch would take someone's head off!!

interesting. People use math and are fine with it but then say math is not allowed?

By the way.....

With Wally's amount of mass he can't hit with a force of several hundred octillion megatons, the total energy of the average star, by going at lightspeed.

Flash would have to be going at many hundred quadrillion times the speed of light to hit with the force of a white dwarf star(or any averagre star). The speed of light would not be enough to produces energy akin to a star even if you were ten times as massive a average human being.

DC writers failed this math problem because this doesn't agree with the kinetic energy/force formula which is KE=½(mass)(speed)^2.

#55 Posted by Lvenger (20007 posts) - - Show Bio

@toptom said:

first of all let me say that the flash doesn't fly. He can levitate at best. There are some instances of him jumping into space but that's all, for example this is the image that comes right after the one you have posted.

Here we can see that he grabs one of the gl's constructs and/or runs upon that beam. So the most probable thing here is that he has jumped right in that place from earth, maybe using some space debris or other beams just to utilize his firend's constructs to hit the Imperiex'sdrones.

Unfortunately there are several instances instances that counter this statement. One was already shown by me where Wally is literally running in space and not on any beam then. Secondly, in the Human Race, Wally runs through space after getting a speed boost (scans can be found here) Secondly, he raced the Black Flash to the end of time where death has no meaning and I'm pretty certain Wally needed to run across space to do that. Finally, although I don't have the scans where this occurred, in a Justice League comic, Wally is literally levitating above the other JLA fliers like Superman and Wonder Woman. I think it's pretty clear that when he's using enough speed and momentum, Wally is capable of transcending gravity and moving on areas that don't have any traction. That debunks your claim that Flash can't fly when there are almost half a dozen showings that prove you wrong.

@toptom said:

Plus here you are a scan of the flash (even if it is Barry Allen) who says that he can't fly. I think that it is good even for wally since their powers are the same.

Ridiculous logic. Barry was amazed at some of the things Wally could pull off with the speed force in The Flash: Rebirth. Barry had been out of the loop for some time and wasn't aware of the abilities Wally had mastered with the Speed Force. Just because Barry doesn't know how to fly doesn't mean that Wally can't. And I've already proved you wrong there.

@toptom said:

Then about the Antimonitor feat he WAS weakened.

Actually not only he was drained by dr light but his armor was heavily damaged by the efforts of those combined super-heroes. Saddly i couldn't find the scan in which is shown the hole they have opened in its chest.So the flash has hit him just after he was depowered and damaged.

Here I'll partially concede some of my points. This is direct proof AM was weakened by Dr Light and I was already aware Wally lent speed to the other heroes to damage him. However, he doesn't seem to be depowered and damaged that much. The hole in his chest seems like nothing and he's still shrugged off the amped assault of the Pre Crisis heroes. Wally damaging AM here is still an impressive and credible feat because even when weakened, AM was still capable of some very powerful feats such as easily killing Supergirl or shrugging off these amped heroes here.

@toptom said:

Then i don't even get why Superman can not hit as hard (or even harder) than the flash. Wally and Barry can perform the imp because they can acheive light speed and Superman can too but , on the top of that, he can add his own super strenght to the mix; i mean he has almost destroyed the moon with a side effect of just ONE of his punches and it was stated like 3 or 4 times by different writers that he can destroy a planet merely with his fists. That is far and i mean really far from the damages that the flash can do.

However i think that Superman can avoid an imp...IF he is ready. He should be fast enough to fly into space before the flash can hit him, or he can can use his thunder-clap in tandem with his hv, or he can turn himself intangible, he can melt the ground... there are a lot of things he could do to slow him down in order to buy some time to reach the air.

He can't hit anywhere near as hard because he can't go nearly as fast as Wally can. Statements are just that, statements with unfounded feats to back the claim up. Superman is still only moon busting in his striking power whereas Wally has one shotted White Martians that are capable of roughing up Superman and the League's heavy hitters and Wonder Woman admitted Zoom hits harder than Superman when she was punched at lightspeed by Zoom. Take your pick as to who hits harder.

And no he really can't avoid the IMP because I've proved the Flash can run in space and unless you need proof Wally's much faster than Clark, catching up to him will be a cinch. Thunder claps won't affect someone moving at FTL speeds either and Wally can turn intangible as well. Plus Wally is faster than heat vision so Clark melting the ground is a bit useless really.

#56 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9728 posts) - - Show Bio

@dum529001:

Yes, this is what I was saying. The statements made about Wallys 'supposed' strength about his punches make no sense both in the comic itself and in real word science. He supposedly hits 'harder than a dwarf star' but the actual punch just slumps Zoom? That doesn't make sense when weaker punches send characters flying. And like you said yourself, and what I (kind of guessed at on the previous page), neither Wally or Superman or any person sized character can hit with the 'force' of a dwarf star. They simply don't have the mass. And, to support this, I found a video of what would happen if Superman punched you. It's on youtube and it pretty much goes along with that you and I said.

So again, on panel, Superman does hit harder than Wally.

@lvenger said:

Then i don't even get why Superman can not hit as hard (or even harder) than the flash. Wally and Barry can perform the imp because they can acheive light speed and Superman can too but , on the top of that, he can add his own super strenght to the mix; i mean he has almost destroyed the moon with a side effect of just ONE of his punches and it was stated like 3 or 4 times by different writers that he can destroy a planet merely with his fists. That is far and i mean really far from the damages that the flash can do.

However i think that Superman can avoid an imp...IF he is ready. He should be fast enough to fly into space before the flash can hit him, or he can can use his thunder-clap in tandem with his hv, or he can turn himself intangible, he can melt the ground... there are a lot of things he could do to slow him down in order to buy some time to reach the air.

He can't hit anywhere near as hard because he can't go nearly as fast as Wally can. Statements are just that, statements with unfounded feats to back the claim up. Superman is still only moon busting in his striking power whereas Wally has one shotted White Martians that are capable of roughing up Superman and the League's heavy hitters and Wonder Woman admitted Zoom hits harder than Superman when she was punched at lightspeed by Zoom. Take your pick as to who hits harder.

And no he really can't avoid the IMP because I've proved the Flash can run in space and unless you need proof Wally's much faster than Clark, catching up to him will be a cinch. Thunder claps won't affect someone moving at FTL speeds either and Wally can turn intangible as well. Plus Wally is faster than heat vision so Clark melting the ground is a bit useless really.

Isn't this a little contradictory? Your reliance on character statements and inner monolgues, is no different than Supermans planet busting claims. They're actually weaker since we at least have Supermans various (easy) moon destruction feats. What has Wally done to suggest he can actually hit harder than Superman when his actual feats pale in comparison?

#57 Posted by stephens2177 (1036 posts) - - Show Bio

Ok let me get this straight,Wally can knock a white Martian out with one punch,so are you saying superman can't one shot a white Martian also?

Has Wally ever hit something besides that white Martian or zoom? Has he shook the earth itself? Could you feel the punch in orbit? Has he hit anything that we can get a better read on the power behind his punch besides two guys who didn't die from the punch?

I love how this arguement is still being played out even after Wally was erased from existence and his IMP punch is gone with him,and Barry the only flash now is in no way on a level that he could do any of Wally's old speedforce tricks.

#58 Posted by Lvenger (20007 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: The ones I use have feats of Wally punching to back them up. If you want to disagree with the interpretation, blame the writer who wrote the scenes, not me. The fact remains that speedsters like Zoom have knocked powerhouses like Wonder Woman around with ease with their hits along with their other fights show their superiority to the powerhouses. I fail to see why powerhouses can hit harder and this is coming from a big supporter of DC powerhouses in particular on here.

Oh just remembered a Flash expert who's still online. @esquire Sorry to bother you like this but I was wondering if you could explain about Wally's IMP hitting harder than what Superman can manage. It seems I need a Flash expert to better explain my position on this move.

@stephens2177 Barry's learnt how to speed force dump already so maybe it's a matter of time before he gets Wally's full package.

#59 Edited by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

I think Flashes attacks are more focused which is why they don't send out the shock-waves that Superman's hits can.

#60 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9728 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Except the feats don't match the text at all. And still, on-panel, Superman and other powerhouses trump Wally. I know the writer can't always portray the feat clearly, and there will always be misinterpretations, but Wally's supposed punching strength doesn't match up at all. Like I said before, his strength is hyped up and then clearly contradicted by the on panel showing. Characters with 'lesser' punching power have vastly superior feats in that area too.

I know the IMP is supposed to be portrayed as a punch that is just as hard as Superman's or stronger, but it simply just isn't portrayed as such. And the fact that it hasn't been used since, makes me think that the writers just dropped it.

And, furthermore, the science doesn't even match up at all. The IMP and the other instance are supposed to be based on fact, but they aren't. And, frankly, they fail in that area

#61 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Have to say, I'm generally skeptical about DC's overall stance on the IMP, but you've put up a pretty good argument, not that the others haven't.

@slimj87d

Thoughts?

#62 Posted by dum529001 (1624 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000:

I believe Superman, Wally or anyone can hit with star-level energy, as long as they are fast enough. But they have to be many many times faster than light.

According to the Energy formula, light speed is not enough, not even if you are ten times the mass of an average human.

You'd have to weigh the mass of a planet to produce star level energy by moving at light speed. For humanoid sized things, they'd have to move at several hundred quadrillion times the speed of light to hit with star level energy.

#63 Posted by stephens2177 (1036 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: isn't the speed force dump been used to broaden his cast,and to pSs out powers to those who enter it?

Also could you answer my questions from above,not wanting to argue or fight you, like anyone else, I just can't wrap my brain around this.

Also doesn't this take away the fun of The Flash coming up to a guy and punching him 500 times.

#64 Edited by Lvenger (20007 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: To be honest, our talk seems to be coming down to differing interpretations over the schematics of what's on panel. There are other nuances I haven't touched upon that I could fetch from Flash expert quotes but then it would just be paraphrasing their words rather than constructing something of my own. You've made me think about the IMP in any case but I've still seen arguments that have swayed me on its battle forum effectiveness on being a massive game changer. Even though Superman's punches cause more destruction, Wally's are more localised and focused on his foe IMO.

@stephens2177 Which specific question is it that you want me to answer?

#65 Edited by toptom (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

First of all there are just 2 instances wich show the flash in space. One of them is the one you have posted, but i have already told to you that it could well be simply a JUMP into space, since right in that panel he is aming to the gl's rocket that he actually grabs (right in the next panel) and uses to get himself even nearer to imperiex. The other example of Flash running into space is probably the one in which he escapes from Krypton, but posting that scan, without providing the contest may be futile...just like with the Antimonitor argument. Of course the feat in which he runs until he reaches the "end of every thing" doesn't mean necessarily that he is in space, or that he has run trough space either: he can simply have used the speed force as a portal as he has done other times before.Contest is everything.

Then saying over and over that Zoom hits harder than superman is irrelevant, not only because he is even faster (massively faster) than Wally himself (actually he has to absorb the power of other 2 or 3 speedesters to compete with him), but also because when WW has stated that "he hits harder than superman" she has said that it was thanks to his ability to throw a punch at the speed of light, so those punches were basically IMPS and that's the important thing here: it was stated ,more than once, that in order to perform an imp you have to reach light speed or at least you have to stay just under light speed. Barry can do that because he can go that fast, Wally can do that, because he can go that fast and even Superman can do that because even he can go that fast ......as he has already done and you should know that since you consider yourself as one of the biggest superman defenders on cv.

Then again i fail to comprend how koing a white martian is way above busting a moon or being able to split a planet with few hits.Shure a white martian can be a serious problem even for the whole league but that isn't because he is so incredibly durable or fast or strong but is thanks to his WHOLE powerset: wally has simply koed a featless martian who hasn't even used one of his many powers besides his superspeed, infact he was later defeated by another martian.In that story Superman has almost koed one of those martian without even trying, even Wondewoman has punched one of them putting him out of the fight for many pages.If Superman has the occasion to hit with all his strenght a white martian who isn't intangible he can ko him too...probably without even reaching the speed of light (but of course he can use an imp too if he wants).

So in the end this Statement "He can't hit anywhere near as hard because he can't go nearly as fast as Wally can." doesn't even make sense: of course Wally is faster than Superman , that much is clear, but to perform an imp he HAS TO GO LIGHT SPEED and Superman can reach that speed pretty well and, on the top of that, he can add his own super strenght to it. Wally can cause more damages because he is able to land MORE imps than Superman in the same ammount of time and that's all....and it's not a small thing.

However Superman SHOULD be fast enough to reach the air before he gets hit (scan under ) maybe even using a huge blast of hv as a distraction, or flying at ftl while being intangible, or he can even do all those things together ( i know that this is unusual but it is not more unusual than having Wally running into space, speed-stealing and performing and imp in the same fight)

#66 Edited by Lvenger (20007 posts) - - Show Bio

@toptom said:

@lvenger said:

First of all there are just 2 instances wich show the flash in space. One of them is the one you have posted, but i have already told to you that it could well be simply a JUMP into space, since right in that panel he is aming to the gl's rocket that he actually grabs (right in the next panel) and uses to get himself even nearer to imperiex. The other example of Flash running into space is probably the one in which he escapes from Krypton, but posting that scan, without providing the contest may be futile...just like with the Antimonitor argument. Of course the feat in which he runs until he reaches the "end of every thing" doesn't mean necessarily that he is in space, or that he has run trough space either: he can simply have used the speed force as a portal as he has done other times before.Contest is everything.

No there are more than 2 so you're absolutely wrong there. The Imperiex War scan shows him literally running in space with no beams or anything to support him. If the jump was needed, he wouldn't be running in space in the next scan which he clearly is nor speaking in space. Then there's the Krypton one you mentioned and the Black Flash one. Of course he needs to run through space to reach the end of everything, he needed to run on something that wasn't physical or tangible ground to run upon. It's a weak basis for your argument that you think that running to the end of existence doesn't imply running on something untangible. Indeed you are right, context (not contest) is essential and I've provided the most accurate interpretation of it.

@toptom said:

Then saying over and over that Zoom hits harder than superman is irrelevant, not only because he is even faster (massively faster) than Wally himself (actually he has to absorb the power of other 2 or 3 speedesters to compete with him), but also because when WW has stated that "he hits harder than superman" she has said that it was thanks to his ability to throw a punch at the speed of light, so those punches were basically IMPS and that's the important thing here: it was stated ,more than once, that in order to perform an imp you have to reach light speed or at least you have to stay just under light speed. Barry can do that because he can go that fast, Wally can do that, because he can go that fast and even Superman can do that because even he can go that fast ......as he has already done and you should know that since you consider yourself as one of the biggest superman defenders on cv.

I knew Wally had to speed steal to keep up with Zoom so the context is familiar to me. And I am fully aware of that as one of the Vine's biggest Superman defenders so I assure you there's no need to tell me of this. It's because of Wally and Zoom's inherent superiority in being able to launch IMPs much more frequently than Superman that makes their hits so much more powerful than Superman's. Their punches are more localised in their impact rather than Superman's which generate destruction when he hits his foes.

@toptom said:

Then again i fail to comprend how koing a white martian is way above busting a moon or being able to split a planet with few hits.Shure a white martian can be a serious problem even for the whole league but that isn't because he is so incredibly durable or fast or strong but is thanks to his WHOLE powerset: wally has simply koed a featless martian who hasn't even used one of his many powers besides his superspeed, infact he was later defeated by another martian.In that story Superman has almost koed one of those martian without even trying, even Wondewoman has punched one of them putting him out of the fight for many pages.If Superman has the occasion to hit with all his strenght a white martian who isn't intangible he can ko him too...probably without even reaching the speed of light (but of course he can use an imp too if he wants).

And I don't see how only statements about planet busting make Superman a planet buster. He doesn't have the feats for it even though he could do it in a few hits if we speculate. Anyway, KOing a White Martian is impressive because of these feats

JLA #2: A White Martian named Primaid moves so fast that she blitzes Superman before he can react even though he saw her coming from over 200 miles away.

JLA #33: A single White Martian takes on Orion, Steel, Green Lantern, Big Barda and Plastic Man all at the same time and more or less holds his own until Orion has a Crowning Moment of Badassery where he sets himself on fire to fight the Martian.

JLA #3: Two White Martians named Armek and Zenturion beat Flash and Green Lantern in an off-panel fight.

JLA #57: White Martians blitz Superman and Kyle Rayner to defeat them.

JLA #58: The White Martians fight and defeat basically every hero on Earth worth anything.

So yeah that's why one shotting a White Martian is worth a damn. Superman and Wonder Woman haven't beaten White Martians that easily if I remember from reading Waid's storyline with them in. They gave the League massive problems both times around.

@toptom said:

So in the end this Statement "He can't hit anywhere near as hard because he can't go nearly as fast as Wally can." doesn't even make sense: of course Wally is faster than Superman , that much is clear, but to perform an imp he HAS TO GO LIGHT SPEED and Superman can reach that speed pretty well and, on the top of that, he can add his own super strenght to it. Wally can cause more damages because he is able to land MORE imps than Superman in the same ammount of time and that's all....and it's not a small thing.

Actually, the thing that doesn't make sense is why you continue advocating the view that Superman can hit harder than Wally when all Wally needs to do is go at speeds Superman can't comprehend (which has been the case many times in Pre Flashpoint history) and one shot him when he can't react to it. Simple as that.

@toptom said:

However Superman SHOULD be fast enough to reach the air before he gets hit (scan under ) maybe even using a huge blast of hv as a distraction, or flying at ftl while being intangible, or he can even do all those things together ( i know that this is unusual but it is not more unusual than having Wally running into space, speed-stealing and performing and imp in the same fight)

Again you exclude Wally's damn superior speed to Clark and his ability to move anywhere so long as he's channelling the speed force. If Superman tries to fly into the air, Wally just follows him up there. It's been proven that he can fly on multiple occasions so denying this undermines your case. I debunked the heat vision argument earlier so why you're still using that I have no idea. And Wally can go intangible too. In that scan, Superman was separated by John's forcefield and he'd already wound back to throw the punch before Wally looked over his shoulder to see what Superman was doing.

#68 Edited by toptom (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

"No there are more than 2 so you're absolutely wrong there. The Imperiex War scan shows him literally running in space with no beams or anything to support him. If the jump was needed, he wouldn't be running in space in the next scan which he clearly is nor speaking in space. Then there's the Krypton one you mentioned and the Black Flash one. Of course he needs to run through space to reach the end of everything, he needed to run on something that wasn't physical or tangible ground to run upon. It's a weak basis for your argument that you think that running to the end of existence doesn't imply running on something untangible. Indeed you are right, context (not contest) is essential and I've provided the most accurate interpretation of it."

"no there are more than 2 so you are absolutely wrong here"...sure lol, there are 3 (not 2 you are right) instances and none of that 3 is clear. So if in the first example (our world at war) he was running in space why he has to grab the gl's missile to go against imperiex?Besides that, you say he was running before he could effectively run on that beam, but if you look at that scan you can see that most of that ipotetical run is already happening upon that beam: there is just one long step in the vacuum and the second one can pretty well be the one he has used to start walking the blast.Plus why are you bringing the argument "he was talking in space"? they could have some tech for that. Then regarding Flas running out of krytpon you have said that he has had a power boost so that doesn't really count...untill a more solid contest is provided. Third i've already told to you why even the example of the flash running till the end of everything is not good either:the flash has already managed to move trough space by entering into the speed-force before. However thanks for correcting me about the word "context" (which wasn't provided by the way, not even in the wrong way as you did with your antimonitor argument).

"I knew Wally had to speed steal to keep up with Zoom so the context is familiar to me. And I am fully aware of that as one of the Vine's biggest Superman defenders so I assure you there's no need to tell me of this. It's because of Wally and Zoom's inherent superiority in being able to launch IMPs much more frequently than Superman that makes their hits so much more powerful than Superman's. Their punches are more localised in their impact rather than Superman's which generate destruction when he hits his foes."

So...if you knew that Wally had to speed steal other 2 or 3 speedesters why have you even brought here the argument that Zoom (and not Wally) can hit harder than Superman?This really doesn't make sense...as doesn't make sense saying that wally's hits are stronger cause he can hit more times than Superman, the fact that he can hit more than him is just obvious but now we are discussing about who can hit harder with ONE punch.I mean , just to make an example, a professional boxer can hit much harder than me,but if i am capable to punch him with hundreds of similar blows i am the one who is winning the match.However now you are saying that Zoom is superior to Superman thanks to his capacity to throw more imps than him...well that's amazing and that is the same thing that i have told in my previous post, even if it was for Wally.

Now i am going to ask you something: have you actually read the stories you are talking about? cause i can give you some link where you can download them for free. I know that koing a white martian is a GOOD feat but that is something the flash could do JUST ONCE and he was defeated by another martian minutes later..and he was even ready for him. So again Wally has hit with an imp a martian who hasn't used even once his tp, his intangibility,his super strenght,his shape shift, his hv and his other powers : he has basically hit a guy who was running super fast without even managing to send him into orbit (which is something that Superman can do and which is something he has endured more than once). So if superman has the chance to hit with his strenght a white martian ,while he is tangible, he can ko him too.And there is no doubt with that, since none of them has any feats of durability that can confute this argument. The martians ARE strong, they can well be stronger than superman if they use their powers in the right way, but if they don't, if they allow to their opponent to hit them, then they can be taken down. It's that simple, really and that is what is obviously happened here.

Then you are even contradicting yourself : Superman was stated by many writers (like 4 times) to be strong enough to destroy planets or to crack moons in half with his fist but you are rejecting those statements because...well without a reason (even if he has almsot destroyed the moon without even hitting it). To the other hand you are accepting the ONLY statement that puts the Zoom's striking force above Superman, without considering the fact (even it was stated on panel) that he can hit so hard thanks to his "fists at light speed" (which Superman can replicate by flying, as he has already done of course).

however here you are ww punching out a white martian

It wasn't shown if he was really koed but he has resurfaced form the sea just 5 pages later , when she has engaged another white martian. So it can stand as a tactical knock out.

here you are Superman stunning one of those martian really really easily, and this page comes right next to the one you have posted before (when she has ambushed Superman who hasn't endured any damage by the way)

Pages later she is still stunned by that poke.

Then this is the scan of Superman defeating the leader of those martians:

In that fight he has even choosen to not use his hv, so before that martian could enter into his blood stream, he has dragged him deep into the earth's crust (where he was weakened by the magma) and then ,with one punch, he has sent him into the surface again.

"Actually, the thing that doesn't make sense is why you continue advocating the view that Superman can hit harder than Wally when all Wally needs to do is go at speeds Superman can't comprehend (which has been the case many times in Pre Flashpoint history) and one shot him when he can't react to it. Simple as that."

nonsense at least for 3 reasons: 1-this is not Wally vs Superman but this is about who can hit harder with one punch, 2- if Wally goes at speeds that Superman can't comprehend he will likely pass the speed of light many times over hence he can't perform the imp, 3- the fact that one imp has koed a white martian (just for some minutes) doesn't mean it can one-shot Superman at all: a martian CAN defeat Superman if he uses all his powers but still Superman remains the one more durable by a huge margin, so what can defeat him may be not enough to defeat the other.This is simply a durability matter.

"I debunked the heat vision argument earlier so why you're still using that I have no idea. And Wally can go intangible too. In that scan, Superman was separated by John's forcefield and he'd already wound back to throw the punch before Wally looked over his shoulder to see what Superman was doing."

Of course i know that the flash is faster than hv, but seems like you can't comprend that in this case he is not running from those lasers but he is running towards them, the difference is huge since he will be going against them at speeds that approach or surpass light.However Superman can also go invisible or shoot an invisible beam of hv which can severe wally's tendons. There are plenty of things he can do even though wally can likely evade most of them.Then i don't know why but now you are ignoring the fact that wally wasn't fast enough to stop the superman's punch: they were separated by that construct but wally can phase...he simply couldn't do that fast enough to stop superman. Otfen people, tend to have a distorted vision of the flash due to the many exagerated threads about him, shure he can do all that stuff but THAT kind of flash dosen't really exists in comics: there is never been and there will never be a Flash so fast and strong that is capable to put down the Silver Surfer in the first picosend of the fight or something like that.

So going back to the main argument and skipping the fact that posting a scan in which an ARMY of white-m has defeated every super-hero on earth doesn't prove nothing, remains just one fact: to make an imp you have to go to light speed and superman can go to light speed. That's all you need to know if you want to ignore the scans that prove the superman's superior hitting power. But at least we agree on this fact: wally can punch his enemy many more times than superman can, hence he can cause more damages than him.

/ thread. ( i am going to apologize now for the grammar's mistakes that i have probably done here, but now it's late and i don't want to check this post from the beginning but feel free to point out the errors)

#69 Posted by Esquire (3833 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Sorry for not getting to this, I haven't really been around. You've covered everything pretty well, though, and I don't have anything major to add. The problem with debating for Wally is that he jobs arguably more than any other major protagonist, so he doesn't have a lot of true realizations of his potential. The ones he does have are very good, and extrapolating makes him into a nigh-unstoppable monster. But extrapolating is just that; extrapolating. I strongly believe that it's accurate based on the numerous showings and explanations of Wally's powers, but some people choose not to accept that extrapolation based on a perceived lack of evidence, and it's difficult to refute that with the limited showings of an all-out Wally.

#70 Edited by Lvenger (20007 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@lvenger: Sorry for not getting to this, I haven't really been around. You've covered everything pretty well, though, and I don't have anything major to add. The problem with debating for Wally is that he jobs arguably more than any other major protagonist, so he doesn't have a lot of true realizations of his potential. The ones he does have are very good, and extrapolating makes him into a nigh-unstoppable monster. But extrapolating is just that; extrapolating. I strongly believe that it's accurate based on the numerous showings and explanations of Wally's powers, but some people choose not to accept that extrapolation based on a perceived lack of evidence, and it's difficult to refute that with the limited showings of an all-out Wally.

No problem and agreed really. The limited use of these powers probably does turn people off using them as reliable powers for what Wally can do.

#71 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9728 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@lvenger: Sorry for not getting to this, I haven't really been around. You've covered everything pretty well, though, and I don't have anything major to add. The problem with debating for Wally is that he jobs arguably more than any other major protagonist, so he doesn't have a lot of true realizations of his potential. The ones he does have are very good, and extrapolating makes him into a nigh-unstoppable monster. But extrapolating is just that; extrapolating. I strongly believe that it's accurate based on the numerous showings and explanations of Wally's powers, but some people choose not to accept that extrapolation based on a perceived lack of evidence, and it's difficult to refute that with the limited showings of an all-out Wally.

I see what you're saying. It's clear that some writers wanted Wally to be at a certain level, and think of him that way, but he fails in two big important ways: On-Panel evidence, and real world actual scientific applications (of the on-panel evidence as well). On Panel, actual showings, I don't think anyone can deny that Supermans most impressive striking feat(s) trump Wallys. But on the other hand, Wallys implied striking feats, and hearsay, trump Supermans feats. Which am I to take more seriously? Especially when the very science behind Wally's attacks fail miserably. It's already been stated multiple times, but the writers bring in these Flash facts without any scientific knowledge, and all it does is hinder. So, I know in the comics Wally is supposed to be at that level, but here on the Battle forums, the rules apply to him as well. Thanks to on-panel evidence and so on, he does not hit as strong as Superman.

#72 Posted by Lvenger (20007 posts) - - Show Bio

@esquire said:

@lvenger: Sorry for not getting to this, I haven't really been around. You've covered everything pretty well, though, and I don't have anything major to add. The problem with debating for Wally is that he jobs arguably more than any other major protagonist, so he doesn't have a lot of true realizations of his potential. The ones he does have are very good, and extrapolating makes him into a nigh-unstoppable monster. But extrapolating is just that; extrapolating. I strongly believe that it's accurate based on the numerous showings and explanations of Wally's powers, but some people choose not to accept that extrapolation based on a perceived lack of evidence, and it's difficult to refute that with the limited showings of an all-out Wally.

I see what you're saying. It's clear that some writers wanted Wally to be at a certain level, and think of him that way, but he fails in two big important ways: On-Panel evidence, and real world actual scientific applications (of the on-panel evidence as well). On Panel, actual showings, I don't think anyone can deny that Supermans most impressive striking feat(s) trump Wallys. But on the other hand, Wallys implied striking feats, and hearsay, trump Supermans feats. Which am I to take more seriously? Especially when the very science behind Wally's attacks fail miserably. It's already been stated multiple times, but the writers bring in these Flash facts without any scientific knowledge, and all it does is hinder. So, I know in the comics Wally is supposed to be at that level, but here on the Battle forums, the rules apply to him as well. Thanks to on-panel evidence and so on, he does not hit as strong as Superman.

We'll have to agree to disagree as I see the evidence as allowing Wally to hit much harder than Superman for the reasons discussed already.

#73 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9728 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Really? Because all I see is hearsay and implications. You're best evidence was the anti-monitor feat, and like I thought, he was in fact weakened. And even if he wasn't, the feat would be high-end, since there is no way that Wally could hit as strong as pre-crisis/silver age Superman. That's evident in the fact that Wally is being compared to post-crisis Superman.

#74 Posted by Lvenger (20007 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Really? Because all I see is hearsay and implications. You're best evidence was the anti-monitor feat, and like I thought, he was in fact weakened. And even if he wasn't, the feat would be high-end, since there is no way that Wally could hit as strong as pre-crisis/silver age Superman. That's evident in the fact that Wally is being compared to post-crisis Superman.

Sorry but I've seen far more compelling arguments from Wally experts which explain how Wally can use his IMPs much better in a way that makes Superman's best strength feat look tame in comparison. And this has gone off topic since this thread is about whether Superman can avoid the IMP which I doubt he can.

#75 Edited by buttersdaman000 (9728 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@lvenger:

Really? Because all I see is hearsay and implications. You're best evidence was the anti-monitor feat, and like I thought, he was in fact weakened. And even if he wasn't, the feat would be high-end, since there is no way that Wally could hit as strong as pre-crisis/silver age Superman. That's evident in the fact that Wally is being compared to post-crisis Superman.

Sorry but I've seen far more compelling arguments from Wally experts which explain how Wally can use his IMPs much better in a way that makes Superman's best strength feat look tame in comparison. And this has gone off topic since this thread is about whether Superman can avoid the IMP which I doubt he can.

That's the point. What explanations are they offering other than implications? I've seen all of Wally's most impressive striking feats, and they still pale in comparison to Supermans. I've read all the text surrounding the feats, and that is where he trumps Superman.....but the on-panel showing is then laughable. I've done the math surrounding his feats, and they still pale in comparison to Supermans feats. I really don't see how a Flash expert can change this. And just as esquire has said, you can't refute the lack of evidence, and therefore, thanks to superior evidence of showings and the battle forum rules, Superman trumps Wally in the striking department.

#76 Posted by Lvenger (20007 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@lvenger:

Really? Because all I see is hearsay and implications. You're best evidence was the anti-monitor feat, and like I thought, he was in fact weakened. And even if he wasn't, the feat would be high-end, since there is no way that Wally could hit as strong as pre-crisis/silver age Superman. That's evident in the fact that Wally is being compared to post-crisis Superman.

Sorry but I've seen far more compelling arguments from Wally experts which explain how Wally can use his IMPs much better in a way that makes Superman's best strength feat look tame in comparison. And this has gone off topic since this thread is about whether Superman can avoid the IMP which I doubt he can.

That's the point. What explanations are they offering other than implications? I've seen all of Wally's most impressive striking feats, and they still pale in comparison to Supermans. I've read all the text surrounding the feats, and that is where he trumps Superman.....but the on-panel showing is then laughable. I've done the math surrounding his feats, and they still pale in comparison to Supermans feats. I really don't see how a Flash expert can change this. And just as esquire has said, you can't refute the lack of evidence, and therefore, thanks to superior evidence of showings and the battle forum rules, Superman trumps Wally in the striking department.

As I said, differing interpretations. With the on panel and writer confirmation of his striking power, Wally can trump Superman and can launch more IMPs if one doesn't KO him. Simple as that. And what math have you done when you haven't posted any calculations on here?

Also, do you think Superman actually stands a chance against Wally? Just curious because there are a lot more abilities Wally has which will snuff Clark out if he wanted to use them.

#77 Edited by buttersdaman000 (9728 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@lvenger:

Really? Because all I see is hearsay and implications. You're best evidence was the anti-monitor feat, and like I thought, he was in fact weakened. And even if he wasn't, the feat would be high-end, since there is no way that Wally could hit as strong as pre-crisis/silver age Superman. That's evident in the fact that Wally is being compared to post-crisis Superman.

Sorry but I've seen far more compelling arguments from Wally experts which explain how Wally can use his IMPs much better in a way that makes Superman's best strength feat look tame in comparison. And this has gone off topic since this thread is about whether Superman can avoid the IMP which I doubt he can.

That's the point. What explanations are they offering other than implications? I've seen all of Wally's most impressive striking feats, and they still pale in comparison to Supermans. I've read all the text surrounding the feats, and that is where he trumps Superman.....but the on-panel showing is then laughable. I've done the math surrounding his feats, and they still pale in comparison to Supermans feats. I really don't see how a Flash expert can change this. And just as esquire has said, you can't refute the lack of evidence, and therefore, thanks to superior evidence of showings and the battle forum rules, Superman trumps Wally in the striking department.

As I said, differing interpretations. With the on panel and writer confirmation of his striking power, Wally can trump Superman and can launch more IMPs if one doesn't KO him. Simple as that. And what math have you done when you haven't posted any calculations on here?

Also, do you think Superman actually stands a chance against Wally? Just curious because there are a lot more abilities Wally has which will snuff Clark out if he wanted to use them.

No....there is no on-panel evidence, only character statements, and text boxes. There is also no direct writer commentary to support your claim either. I told you to apply the F= M*A equation on an earlier page, and I did (a flawed version) of the kinetic energy eqaution on paper when I doubted Wally can hit like a dwarf star. Dums input only supported it.

And while I seriously doubt one would KO Superman, I know enough to know that Wally would stomp him. And it's not because he hits harder.

But I have to go to class now

#78 Edited by toptom (1181 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: " there is no way that Wally could hit as strong as pre-crisis/silver age Superman" it's a pleasure to see someone who doesn't think that Wally can hit harder than a guy who has sneezed a solar system away lol

however this whole argument about who can hit harder should really stop once we consider that in order to make an imp the character in question should be able to reach the speed of light: that's the only thing which enables those characters to achieve this "infinite mass". There isn't much to debate once we realize that an imp is an imp independetly by the guy who makes it. The only real difference is that some charaters (Wally,Zoom,Barry) can use such a move many more times in the same fight than other characters can but their imps aren't more efficent or stronger in any way.

I strongly believe ,as you do, that Superman has clearly demonstrated that he can hit harder than wally, but sadly with this argument the world "clearly" may be overrated: but if we are really willing ignore the numerous feats which can possibly put Superman above the flash in this category and simply consider the imp as the "fatality" of the dc universe we should aknowledge that Wally can perform it ,just like Barry can do it just like Superman and even Supergirl can do it.

edit: since this thread is almost becoming "flash vs Superman" i just want to clarify that i can see the Flash winning this hypothetical fight against Superman most of the times if he uses all his abilities, but i can see him as a winner just inside the battle threads and not into a possible comicbook where he won't use all his powers together, as he has never done in all his decades of publications.

#79 Posted by stephens2177 (1036 posts) - - Show Bio

I love this,perfect example of beating a long dead decaying horse,Wally is gone,the IMP is gone,to bring it up now as just a way to say nah nah nah my character is better than yours is silly and a lil immature.wally had his speedforce abilities for a very short time in the history of comic time,and superman has been his superior every single year,decade before that,so whoopee if he has a short window where he can get his hand raised it was a blink of a eye in the scheme of things,and if you can see now in the new 52 there is only Barry,and he is pretty much back where he always was power wise!which means no where near Wally's peak power levels,but now superman is the most powerful he has ever been in comics besides the silver age now,and dwarfs Barry.arguement closed and dead!just like the IMP.

#80 Posted by OneUvDem (1 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: @drgnx: flash can steal the kinetic energy from supermans punch and use it against him. SF characters can steal or Lend kinetic engery, motion, or momentum or he could just accelerate supermans cells and metabolism and turn him into a old man. If flash can vibrate throughout solid objects without breaking them im pretty sure if flash puts his hands on supermans head and vibrate his brains cells so fast, his brains will be mush

#81 Posted by Black_Arrow (3154 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyone with FTL reaction can dodged it. Saddly Superman doesn´t have it.

#83 Posted by Minaruto (48 posts) - - Show Bio

Yes, and Supes is > Flash.

That is all.

#84 Posted by redwingx (831 posts) - - Show Bio

@minaruto said:

Yes, and Supes is > Flash.

That is all.

Flash>Supes.