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#1 Posted by Squalleon (4626 posts) - - Show Bio

I caught my self thinking how Superman could stop Flash's Infinite mass punch.
I have thought about a number of ways like:

  1. Run from the opposite direction countering Flash's force with his own.
  2. create an earthquake to make Flash lose proper footing (this is the one i am most unsure about)
  3. Flying (obviously)
  4. Freeze the air around his like Captain Cold does with his guns.

What other ways do you think Superman can counter the IMP if you think he can?

#2 Posted by Beerminator1 (358 posts) - - Show Bio

If Flash is already running at the speed of light, and ready to do the Infinite Mass Punch, there probably would not be anything Supes could do at this point. But if Flash is merely getting ready to do the IMP: the first one on your list would never work. The second one might, if Superman times it perfectly. The third one probably would, Superman flies high above the ground and Flash can't reach him. Al thou Flash can also "fly", he can spin his arms so fast that it create a helicopter-like effect, allowing Flash to fly, but very slowly. But Flash would have to be stupid to try and follow Superman... The fourth one would work, if Superman can do it fast enough.

Also, if Superman is at a field or a desert or something, Superman could use his super breath or speed to create a small sand storm. Flash couldn't see very well in the storm and Superman could use him x-ray vision to see Flash perfectly. Giving Superman a huge advantage.

#3 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

IMP is overrated

#4 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

He could stop it ... With his face!

#5 Posted by evilvegeta74 (4530 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

He could stop it ... With his face!

lol!

#6 Posted by Tohoma (1462 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

He could stop it ... With his face!

/thread

#7 Posted by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

An out-of-character Superman could rip off Flash's legs. Problem solved.... Though he has to tag Flash first.

#8 Posted by SheenLantern (6668 posts) - - Show Bio
#9 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

Nope, I doubt he could. He KOed himself with his own version of the IMP and the Flash can execute it far more efficiently and more often too.

#10 Posted by stephens2177 (1044 posts) - - Show Bio

Well I for one am glad the IMP is gone,hopefully never to be seen again.

I like Flash as the super fast guy who vibrates through stuff and makes cyclones.

And really the IMP should have been considered Wally's last resort,cause the effect of being hit with it should be death.

#11 Posted by BigCimmerian (8400 posts) - - Show Bio

He can't.

/Thread/

#12 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000 said:

IMP is overrated

Why?

The IMP was used one(?) time against a no name, featless white martian who Flash basically stomped. Everybody is hung up on the claim that it hit with the power of a white dwarf, but IIRC it didn't even knock the martian that far. Superman knocked Wonder Woman from the SUN to the EARTH. That's a much much more powerful hit. But, everybody jocks Flash a little too much. I don't remember any instance where Superman has ever been close to being OHKO by any type of Flash, and he's been speedblitzed by the likes of Zoom before. So, I just don't think the IMP is Flashs' 'End-all-be-all ultimate move' is all. His other speed related moves are more than enough. Superman would tank an IMP like any other punch.

@lvenger said:

Nope, I doubt he could. He KOed himself with his own version of the IMP and the Flash can execute it far more efficiently and more often too.

The difference there is that Superman isn't protected by the SF, and that moon was accelerating at tremendous speeds, and it was made up of an external power. I don't think that situation is comparable.

#13 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: I was referring to the Speed Force protection aspect so I do find those situations somewhat comparable given that Superman was going at similar speeds to Flash in that instance yet was KOed by the attack. Besides, Wally said he could have hit him a thousand times over and Diana stated that Zoom, who Wally is comparable to in several ways, hits harder than Superman.

#14 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000: I was referring to the Speed Force protection aspect so I do find those situations somewhat comparable given that Superman was going at similar speeds to Flash in that instance yet was KOed by the attack. Besides, Wally said he could have hit him a thousand times over and Diana stated that Zoom, who Wally is comparable to in several ways, hits harder than Superman.

But Superman wasn't protected by the SF, the moon was accelerating at tremendous speed, and it was composed of an outside power. I just don't find the two IMPs comparable...I mean....Superman rammed something and Wally just punched something. Even in that the amount of bodily damage would be significantly different.

True, Wally could hit Superman thousands of times over but I don't think any one of those, even added up, would be KO's. Besides that one IMP instance (which again, is overrated), Wally doesn't have the credibility of KO feats to do so. And again, Superman has been speed blitzed by Zoom before, several times I think. If he really hit as hard as Superman, I would think that one of those thousands of punches would have knocked him out. Wonder Womans statement it just like Flashes IMP, overrated .

#15 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

But Superman wasn't protected by the SF, the moon was accelerating at tremendous speed, and it was composed of an outside power. I just don't find the two IMPs comparable...I mean....Superman rammed something and Wally just punched something. Even in that the amount of bodily damage would be significantly different.

True, Wally could hit Superman thousands of times over but I don't think any one of those, even added up, would be KO's. Besides that one IMP instance (which again, is overrated), Wally doesn't have the credibility of KO feats to do so. And again, Superman has been speed blitzed by Zoom before, several times I think. If he really hit as hard as Superman, I would think that one of those thousands of punches would have knocked him out. Wonder Womans statement it just like Flashes IMP, overrated .

Zoom jobs massively so using that kind of basis for your argument against Wally's punching power is ridiculous. When he doesn't job, Zoom is a fiercely powerful opponent, one that can create sonic booms just by clicking his fingers. Superman has to use a sonic clap to achieve that which Zoom does with ease. The fact is that the punching power Wally has exerted (throwing thousands of punches in less than a second which btw Superman couldn't even react to his fight with Zoom) makes him a much harder puncher than Superman. Sorry but if you're going to use a misinterpreted instance of Zoom blitzing the absolute hell out of Superman where he nor Wonder Woman couldn't do anything to stop it, you're going to get pointed out on how flawed your arguments are. Speed Force users are massively OP and short of skyfathers/massively powerful beings like Thanos, they beat everyone in their path.

#16 Posted by Squalleon (4626 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

But Superman wasn't protected by the SF, the moon was accelerating at tremendous speed, and it was composed of an outside power. I just don't find the two IMPs comparable...I mean....Superman rammed something and Wally just punched something. Even in that the amount of bodily damage would be significantly different.

True, Wally could hit Superman thousands of times over but I don't think any one of those, even added up, would be KO's. Besides that one IMP instance (which again, is overrated), Wally doesn't have the credibility of KO feats to do so. And again, Superman has been speed blitzed by Zoom before, several times I think. If he really hit as hard as Superman, I would think that one of those thousands of punches would have knocked him out. Wonder Womans statement it just like Flashes IMP, overrated .

Zoom jobs massively so using that kind of basis for your argument against Wally's punching power is ridiculous. When he doesn't job, Zoom is a fiercely powerful opponent, one that can create sonic booms just by clicking his fingers. Superman has to use a sonic clap to achieve that which Zoom does with ease. The fact is that the punching power Wally has exerted (throwing thousands of punches in less than a second which btw Superman couldn't even react to his fight with Zoom) makes him a much harder puncher than Superman. Sorry but if you're going to use a misinterpreted instance of Zoom blitzing the absolute hell out of Superman where he nor Wonder Woman couldn't do anything to stop it, you're going to get pointed out on how flawed your arguments are. Speed Force users are massively OP and short of skyfathers/massively powerful beings like Thanos, they beat everyone in their path.

Didn't Wally absorbed the other flashes speed to match Zoom's speed? Zoom is OP even for Speedster standards.
So Zoom and Wally aren't comparable.
On another note do you think Superman can defend against Flash's IMP? Flying would obviously work.

#17 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

But Superman wasn't protected by the SF, the moon was accelerating at tremendous speed, and it was composed of an outside power. I just don't find the two IMPs comparable...I mean....Superman rammed something and Wally just punched something. Even in that the amount of bodily damage would be significantly different.

True, Wally could hit Superman thousands of times over but I don't think any one of those, even added up, would be KO's. Besides that one IMP instance (which again, is overrated), Wally doesn't have the credibility of KO feats to do so. And again, Superman has been speed blitzed by Zoom before, several times I think. If he really hit as hard as Superman, I would think that one of those thousands of punches would have knocked him out. Wonder Womans statement it just like Flashes IMP, overrated .

Zoom jobs massively so using that kind of basis for your argument against Wally's punching power is ridiculous. When he doesn't job, Zoom is a fiercely powerful opponent, one that can create sonic booms just by clicking his fingers. Superman has to use a sonic clap to achieve that which Zoom does with ease. The fact is that the punching power Wally has exerted (throwing thousands of punches in less than a second which btw Superman couldn't even react to his fight with Zoom) makes him a much harder puncher than Superman. Sorry but if you're going to use a misinterpreted instance of Zoom blitzing the absolute hell out of Superman where he nor Wonder Woman couldn't do anything to stop it, you're going to get pointed out on how flawed your arguments are. Speed Force users are massively OP and short of skyfathers/massively powerful beings like Thanos, they beat everyone in their path.

Didn't Wally absorbed the other flashes speed to match Zoom's speed? Zoom is OP even for Speedster standards.

So Zoom and Wally aren't comparable.

On another note do you think Superman can defend against Flash's IMP? Flying would obviously work.

Of course but the battles Wally has make Superman's feats look tame in comparison. And no flying wouldn't work as Wally can actually fly. Here he's running in space and he's done this on multiple occasions.

#18 Posted by Squalleon (4626 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: How does he run in space 0_o

#19 Edited by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@squalleon: The Speed Force allows the user to travel on any terrain as long as they are tapping into the speed force when they move. Or if you prefer

#20 Posted by kgb725 (6440 posts) - - Show Bio

The Earthquake thing should work or just trip him up

#21 Edited by BigCimmerian (8400 posts) - - Show Bio

@kgb725 said:

The Earthquake thing should work or just trip him up

You can't trip someone moving at speed of light.

#22 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

But Superman wasn't protected by the SF, the moon was accelerating at tremendous speed, and it was composed of an outside power. I just don't find the two IMPs comparable...I mean....Superman rammed something and Wally just punched something. Even in that the amount of bodily damage would be significantly different.

True, Wally could hit Superman thousands of times over but I don't think any one of those, even added up, would be KO's. Besides that one IMP instance (which again, is overrated), Wally doesn't have the credibility of KO feats to do so. And again, Superman has been speed blitzed by Zoom before, several times I think. If he really hit as hard as Superman, I would think that one of those thousands of punches would have knocked him out. Wonder Womans statement it just like Flashes IMP, overrated .

Zoom jobs massively so using that kind of basis for your argument against Wally's punching power is ridiculous. When he doesn't job, Zoom is a fiercely powerful opponent, one that can create sonic booms just by clicking his fingers. Superman has to use a sonic clap to achieve that which Zoom does with ease. The fact is that the punching power Wally has exerted (throwing thousands of punches in less than a second which btw Superman couldn't even react to his fight with Zoom) makes him a much harder puncher than Superman. Sorry but if you're going to use a misinterpreted instance of Zoom blitzing the absolute hell out of Superman where he nor Wonder Woman couldn't do anything to stop it, you're going to get pointed out on how flawed your arguments are. Speed Force users are massively OP and short of skyfathers/massively powerful beings like Thanos, they beat everyone in their path.

I'm not saying that Zoom or any other SF user wouldn't beat Superman. What i'm refuting is the legitimacy of the IMP and this thought process that Flash and, Zoom for that matter, hit harder than Superman when the latter has much better showings. Yes, I know Zoom jobs, but that doesn't defeat the fact that on panel his punches have not been shown to be as powerful as Supermans. You think the finger snap vs the thunder clap is a testament of his advantage of Superman, but it isn't. Do you really think Superman couldn't do the same if he so wished? I'm sorry but until I get some legit showing of this praised punching power, i'm not going to jock the IMP. In fact, it's hypocritical that we accept the IMP and this claimed 'punching strength' of Zoom and SF users, while at the same time deny and argue over the legitimacy of someone like Thor's one-off, claim of power, or hard to clearly interpret feats.

#23 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

I'm not saying that Zoom or any other SF user wouldn't beat Superman. What i'm refuting is the legitimacy of the IMP and this thought process that Flash and, Zoom for that matter, hit harder than Superman when the latter has much better showings. Yes, I know Zoom jobs, but that doesn't defeat the fact that on panel his punches have not been shown to be as powerful as Supermans. You think the finger snap vs the thunder clap is a testament of his advantage of Superman, but it isn't. Do you really think Superman couldn't do the same if he so wished? I'm sorry but until I get some legit showing of this praised punching power, i'm not going to jock the IMP. In fact, it's hypocritical that we accept the IMP and this claimed 'punching strength' of Zoom and SF users, while at the same time deny and argue over the legitimacy of someone like Thor's one-off, claim of power, or hard to clearly interpret feats.

The finger clap example was a demonstration of how Speed Force users can create sonic booms by snapping their fingers whereas Superman or other powerhouses have to exert force in their hits to create sonic booms. That alone demonstrates the inherent power SF users have over Superman. So yeah you're still wrong there as Superman can't replicate that feat since, by your own words, there isn't on panel evidence for it. Superman hasn't shown to be able to hit at near infinite mass let alone at the mass of a white dwarf star. The simple physics behind the power of Wally's hits is that as he moves faster and faster, he builds more mass and generates more force with his punches. That's the basics of it and that's all I understand given science is far from my strong point. But of course, you want more proof. Now where in all the world can I find more proof of why Wally can hit much, much harder than Superman...

Why look it's Wally fighting the Anti Monitor and look at what he's doing. Breaking the armour (not beating though since AM is made of pure anti matter energy, he gets up afterwards and blasts all the heroes) of the Anti Monitor which is something the combined forces of the Pre Crisis universe, including the planet towing Superman, couldn't even make a dent in. This is how hard Wally can hit and this is why he's so much above Superman and most DC characters. When has Superman ever done this kind of damage to characters on this level?

#24 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

I'm not saying that Zoom or any other SF user wouldn't beat Superman. What i'm refuting is the legitimacy of the IMP and this thought process that Flash and, Zoom for that matter, hit harder than Superman when the latter has much better showings. Yes, I know Zoom jobs, but that doesn't defeat the fact that on panel his punches have not been shown to be as powerful as Supermans. You think the finger snap vs the thunder clap is a testament of his advantage of Superman, but it isn't. Do you really think Superman couldn't do the same if he so wished? I'm sorry but until I get some legit showing of this praised punching power, i'm not going to jock the IMP. In fact, it's hypocritical that we accept the IMP and this claimed 'punching strength' of Zoom and SF users, while at the same time deny and argue over the legitimacy of someone like Thor's one-off, claim of power, or hard to clearly interpret feats.

The finger clap example was a demonstration of how Speed Force users can create sonic booms by snapping their fingers whereas Superman or other powerhouses have to exert force in their hits to create sonic booms. That alone demonstrates the inherent power SF users have over Superman. So yeah you're still wrong there as Superman can't replicate that feat since, by your own words, there isn't on panel evidence for it. Superman hasn't shown to be able to hit at near infinite mass let alone at the mass of a white dwarf star. The simple physics behind the power of Wally's hits is that as he moves faster and faster, he builds more mass and generates more force with his punches. That's the basics of it and that's all I understand given science is far from my strong point. But of course, you want more proof. Now where in all the world can I find more proof of why Wally can hit much, much harder than Superman...

Why look it's Wally fighting the Anti Monitor and look at what he's doing. Breaking the armour (not beating though since AM is made of pure anti matter energy, he gets up afterwards and blasts all the heroes) of the Anti Monitor which is something the combined forces of the Pre Crisis universe, including the planet towing Superman, couldn't even make a dent in. This is how hard Wally can hit and this is why he's so much above Superman and most DC characters. When has Superman ever done this kind of damage to characters on this level?

How is that anything special.....I don't follow. Of course Superman would have to exert force to create a sonic boom....so did Zoom. If he didn't then there would have been no sonic boom. So no, I actually don't need on panel evidence for that since it should be glaringly obvious that Superman would be able to create a sonic boom. A finger snap boom isn't some special power or anything. And this is where my problem with the IMP arises. All we have is a text box that claims Wallys punch hit that strong. That's not enough for me. On panel, Superman has hit much much harder. The fact that he hit Wonder Woman from the Sun to the Earth at MFTL speed implies a tremendous amount of power and speed in that hit. I mean if you want the science behind it, I think you can apply F=M*A. The force that superman would have had to put behind his punch to send the 60 kg WW accelerating at MFTL speeds (IIRC she only blacked out for an instance) would ,again, be tremendous. That's a much more impressive punch than anything Wally has done.

And, IIRC, wasn't the Anti Monitor pre weakened?

#25 Edited by Squalleon (4626 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@squalleon: The Speed Force allows the user to travel on any terrain as long as they are tapping into the speed force when they move. Or if you prefer

Doesn't he need to make traction to run?
Nevermind i guess it depends on the writer :-P

#26 Posted by drgnx (3564 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: @buttersdaman000:

You're arguing about the special effects of Superman's & Flash's hits vs WW's statement. Wouldn't it be easier to figure out which takes precedent according to forum rules?

#27 Edited by stephens2177 (1044 posts) - - Show Bio

Again I'm glad the IMP is dead and gone,silly PIS just to make "your" seem like he is hot shit and better than the obviously more powerful character.

#28 Posted by batmannflash (6224 posts) - - Show Bio
@drgnx said:

He could stop it ... With his face!

LOL idk why this is so funny...but it is!

#29 Edited by M3th (2099 posts) - - Show Bio

"the first one on your list would never work." HaHaHaHaHa sometHing on fiction being impossible... in fiction. HA!

-ABstract4$$#073-

#30 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@lvenger: @buttersdaman000:

You're arguing about the special effects of Superman's & Flash's hits vs WW's statement. Wouldn't it be easier to figure out which takes precedent according to forum rules?

What do you mean special effects? And I assume actual on-panel evidence would be the most preferred version of feats.....which the IMP lacks....

#31 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@drgnx said:

@lvenger: @buttersdaman000:

You're arguing about the special effects of Superman's & Flash's hits vs WW's statement. Wouldn't it be easier to figure out which takes precedent according to forum rules?

What do you mean special effects? And I assume actual on-panel evidence would be the most preferred version of feats.....which the IMP lacks....

Because it's totally not like the IMP KOed a White Martian with comparable physical stats to Superman and who Morrison says in the narrative "He may be as strong as Superman." Nope I guess the writer's word counts for nothing in interpretations of feats....when they count as a big part of explaining what a character did in reality so there goes your counterpoint out the window.

#33 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000 said:

@drgnx said:

@lvenger: @buttersdaman000:

You're arguing about the special effects of Superman's & Flash's hits vs WW's statement. Wouldn't it be easier to figure out which takes precedent according to forum rules?

What do you mean special effects? And I assume actual on-panel evidence would be the most preferred version of feats.....which the IMP lacks....

Because it's totally not like the IMP KOed a White Martian with comparable physical stats to Superman and who Morrison says in the narrative "He may be as strong as Superman." Nope I guess the writer's word counts for nothing in interpretations of feats....when they count as a big part of explaining what a character did in reality so there goes your counterpoint out the window.

Nah, not really. Comparable does not mean equal, and may does not mean is. This writer narrative you claim, actually isn't per say, it's Wallys inner monologue, and therefore doesn't hold as much weight as the actual write communicating text to us directly. The facts still stand that that white martian was featless, Superman's on panel punches are more impressive, the IMP was only used once (?), and so on. Besides, scientifically speaking, a fist moving that fast would not do damage comparable to white dwarf star....whatever that means. I know that Flash ignores usual physics, but for one, a fist moving at that speed shouldn't really have mass so I don't know why its called the IMP. secondly, the damage of a fist moving at 99% the speed of light, scale of destruction wise, would be like a super large nuke, maybe multiple city level+. The real damage comes from the atomization, heat, and nuclear fallout. But, anyways, on-panel, Superman punches > Wallys punches.

#34 Edited by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: I can see the deleted comment you know. But since you want examples, I'll provide one of my own. But how is Wally's monologue not Morrison's commentary when it's Morrison who's writing Wally's inner monologue? You undermine your point there. But onto my example. Remember when Thor hit the Phoenix Force in AvX 4?

Yeah those two scans. Without interpretation on that event, it's unclear what happens. But here's what Hickman confirmed. The Phoenix was knocked out, landed on another planet and consumed it. Then it beat Thor. Obviously that was one of Thor's high end feats that doesn't corroborate with what he can normally do but for story purposes, Thor KOed the PF, even if temporarily. I find it hard to go against the writer's word on direct instances like this.

#35 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000: I can see the deleted comment you know. But since you want examples, I'll provide one of my own. But how is Wally's monologue not Morrison's commentary when it's Morrison who's writing Wally's inner monologue? You undermine your point there. But onto my example. Remember when Thor hit the Phoenix Force in AvX 4?

Yeah those two scans. Without interpretation on that event, it's unclear what happens. But here's what Hickman confirmed. The Phoenix was knocked out, landed on another planet and consumed it. Then it beat Thor. Obviously that was one of Thor's high end feats that doesn't corroborate with what he can normally do but for story purposes, Thor KOed the PF, even if temporarily. I find it hard to go against the writer's word on direct instances like this.

I deleted my comment by accident...so what? The posted one is exactly the same.....

Inner monologue and writer commentary aren't the same unless you want to treat character conversation as such as well. As far as I can tell, this isn't accepted on the battle forum. If it were, then there would be no arguments about the veracity of Supermans planet busting capabilities since he's said it multiple times.

What does this Thor feat have to do with anything we're talking about? I know you're trying to use it to support your writer claim, but they really aren't the same. Hickman himself, outside of the comic, explained the feat. There can really be no dispute here. If Morrison were to do the same, i'll eat my words.

#36 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: How does it not support my point? I'm using it to explain that writer intention (which Morrison states in the issue as opposed to Hickman explaining it here) is a reference point for explaining story and feat events in comics. That's my point here. And it's different from mere statements which I don't accept either including the Suprman one because it's backed up by on panel feat examples. Multiple times Wally, Zoom and other SF users have been shown to hit harder than powerhouses like Superman.

#37 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000: How does it not support my point? I'm using it to explain that writer intention (which Morrison states in the issue as opposed to Hickman explaining it here) is a reference point for explaining story and feat events in comics. That's my point here. And it's different from mere statements which I don't accept either including the Suprman one because it's backed up by on panel feat examples. Multiple times Wally, Zoom and other SF users have been shown to hit harder than powerhouses like Superman.

Except it hasn't been backed up, and Supermans on panel punches are still better....Morrison's intention wasn't directly stated in the comic because the text wasn't author commentary, it was inner monolgue. Compare Wally's thoughts with the text present in the Gorr vs Thor battles. It's different.

I don't know where you are getting that on panel, Flash trumps Superman in the punch department. Again, the fact that he hit Wonder Woman from the Sun to the Earth in a matter of seconds, suggest a tremendous amount of force. His deflected punch destroyed a large portion of the moon. And so on.

#38 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Wally's punches KOed White Martians and Zoom is stated to hit harder than Superman by Wonder Woman. Given that she has actually been hit by Superman, I'd say she knows how hard the man hits. Heck, Superman compared that male Cheetah guy to being able to hit like Captain Marvel so there's a clear knowledge of who hits how hard in the DCU powerhouses.

#39 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

Featless white martians. And still, character comments, and inner monologues come second when compared to on panel feats. You use these statements to support your claims, and i'll offer counter statements where Superman has been referred to as the strongest being on the planet to refute them

#40 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Your examples ultimately aren't supported by on panel uses of the feats though. But mine are and therein lies the difference and the strengthening of what I'm saying over what you're saying.

#41 Edited by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000: Your examples ultimately aren't supported by on panel uses of the feats though. But mine are and therein lies the difference and the strengthening of what I'm saying over what you're saying.

What....how? You are the one who is lacking in on panel feats that support your claims..

1. Flash claims his punch hits like a dwarf star. The actual punch just slumps zoom. There is no forced movement at all. If it really was that hard, I would imagine Zoom would actually travel a bit far

2. The IMP only sends the White Martian across some islands at escape velocity

Now, how is this anything compared to

1. Hitting Wonder Woman so powerfully that she is sent from the Sun to The Earth at MFTL speeds

2. The force from a deflected punch destroying a large portion of the moon

And so on.

So, tell me how my examples are any weaker than yours?

#42 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: The punch actually sent Zoom from Mt Rushmore to Africa. You can see Mt Rushmore blurred in the background before Wally hits Zoom and then after he lands, zebras and antelopes are scattering around Zum from where he's landed. Your examples are weaker because of the Anti Monitor example I'm afraid. That one feat blows the other two impressive Superman feats out of the water. None of the Pre Crisis heroes, such as Superman who was MUCH stronger than the Post Crisis Superman whose feats you cite

Wally even lent the Pre Crisis heroes speed to help them out

but when that didn't work, he stepped in and destroyed the Anti Monitor's armour himself, a feat that not even the combined Pre Crisis forces at the end of COIE could accomplish without prep and help from Darkseid. When Superman shows striking feats like that, let me know. And I know a great deal about Superman's feats in the first place so trust me, he hasn't hit anywhere near as hard as that. To deal with one of your original questions about that feat, no the Anti Monitor was not weakened in that instance. Wally was fighting the same Anti Monitor that was barely phased by all those heroes and did something none of those other heroes, who were more powerful than their Post Crisis counterparts could achieve.

#43 Edited by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

This punch sent Zoom flying where?

And, no. The anti-monitor feat changes nothing. The fact that in the two above instances, where his punches were explained out to be some of his most powerful, but instead fail to trump Superman's speak for something. It's contradictory, and high end. His two most powerful punches fail in comparison to Superman's and then he turns around and outclasses Pre-Crisis Superman? I'm not buying it. And what comic is that from? Because i'm pretty sure the Anti-Monitor was weakened. There was an x factor somewhere in there

#44 Posted by Bezza (3681 posts) - - Show Bio

..Just thought I'd say that in my short time on this forum, Lvenger is pretty much the strongest defender of Superman's honour I've come across, so if he says Superman doesn't have the punching feats that Flash does, I believe him! (PS they are both my favourite DC characters)...

I've always felt that by definition Flash's punch should be the hardest because Force = m x a and simply, Flash has more acceleration than anyone else. In reality a lightspeed punch would take someone's head off!!

#45 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: I was talking about the White Martian one, not the Zoom one. Zum was the name of the White Martian Wally KOed which you'd know the distinction of if you paid attention to the feat.

And now it's my turn to revert the stance of your case. Prove that Anti Monitor was weakened with on panel confirmation or your statement will be as meaningless as the claims that Superman is the most powerful being on the planet when clearly that isn't the case.

#46 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza said:

..Just thought I'd say that in my short time on this forum, Lvenger is pretty much the strongest defender of Superman's honour I've come across, so if he says Superman doesn't have the punching feats that Flash does, I believe him! (PS they are both my favourite DC characters)...

I've always felt that by definition Flash's punch should be the hardest because Force = m x a and simply, Flash has more acceleration than anyone else. In reality a lightspeed punch would take someone's head off!!

Great....? Be a sheep instead of digging for facts and thinking for yourself...

In reality a lightspeed punch would be....weightless....soooooo??

#47 Posted by buttersdaman000 (9779 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

@buttersdaman000: I was talking about the White Martian one, not the Zoom one. Zum was the name of the White Martian Wally KOed which you'd know the distinction of if you paid attention to the feat.

And now it's my turn to revert the stance of your case. Prove that Anti Monitor was weakened with on panel confirmation or your statement will be as meaningless as the claims that Superman is the most powerful being on the planet when clearly that isn't the case.

Ah, that one. It changes nothing anyways. The punch is still significantly weaker.

And I asked for the comic, which should tell you i'm not completely sure of it? I remember seeing those pages in a library years ago, and, since you are using scans from it, I thought you would know the issue or trade it's from. So, do you? And it's funny how you're challenging the validity of those Superman claims, while adhering to the same Flash/Zoom ones. But anyways, really...Wally West being more powerful than Pre-Crisis Superman?

#48 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@buttersdaman000: Since you asked, the issue is The Flash #150 - Chain Lightning, Finale: Finish Line. Managed to find it so you can check to see whether your claim is valid or not. It's part of the Chain Lightning storyline which ran for 6 issues in Wally's first Flash Volume. And the feat speaks for itself in all honesty. Better Flash experts than myself accept the validity of that feat and the other two I mentioned as well. I can call some of them here if you want.

#49 Posted by Bezza (3681 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza said:

..Just thought I'd say that in my short time on this forum, Lvenger is pretty much the strongest defender of Superman's honour I've come across, so if he says Superman doesn't have the punching feats that Flash does, I believe him! (PS they are both my favourite DC characters)...

I've always felt that by definition Flash's punch should be the hardest because Force = m x a and simply, Flash has more acceleration than anyone else. In reality a lightspeed punch would take someone's head off!!

Great....? Be a sheep instead of digging for facts and thinking for yourself...

In reality a lightspeed punch would be....weightless....soooooo??

now, now, no need to be rude...I'm no sheep, baaa, baaa!!

#50 Posted by Lvenger (20254 posts) - - Show Bio

@bezza said:

..Just thought I'd say that in my short time on this forum, Lvenger is pretty much the strongest defender of Superman's honour I've come across, so if he says Superman doesn't have the punching feats that Flash does, I believe him! (PS they are both my favourite DC characters)...

I've always felt that by definition Flash's punch should be the hardest because Force = m x a and simply, Flash has more acceleration than anyone else. In reality a lightspeed punch would take someone's head off!!

Great....? Be a sheep instead of digging for facts and thinking for yourself...

In reality a lightspeed punch would be....weightless....soooooo??

I'm in a position to know the feats of both characters so that reasoning is still fine. In any case, knock it off with the insults or I terminate this if you'e going to act this way to others who support my position.