But Superman wasn't protected by the SF, the moon was accelerating at tremendous speed, and it was composed of an outside power. I just don't find the two IMPs comparable...I mean....Superman rammed something and Wally just punched something. Even in that the amount of bodily damage would be significantly different.
True, Wally could hit Superman thousands of times over but I don't think any one of those, even added up, would be KO's. Besides that one IMP instance (which again, is overrated), Wally doesn't have the credibility of KO feats to do so. And again, Superman has been speed blitzed by Zoom before, several times I think. If he really hit as hard as Superman, I would think that one of those thousands of punches would have knocked him out. Wonder Womans statement it just like Flashes IMP, overrated .
Zoom jobs massively so using that kind of basis for your argument against Wally's punching power is ridiculous. When he doesn't job, Zoom is a fiercely powerful opponent, one that can create sonic booms just by clicking his fingers. Superman has to use a sonic clap to achieve that which Zoom does with ease. The fact is that the punching power Wally has exerted (throwing thousands of punches in less than a second which btw Superman couldn't even react to his fight with Zoom) makes him a much harder puncher than Superman. Sorry but if you're going to use a misinterpreted instance of Zoom blitzing the absolute hell out of Superman where he nor Wonder Woman couldn't do anything to stop it, you're going to get pointed out on how flawed your arguments are. Speed Force users are massively OP and short of skyfathers/massively powerful beings like Thanos, they beat everyone in their path.
Didn't Wally absorbed the other flashes speed to match Zoom's speed? Zoom is OP even for Speedster standards.
So Zoom and Wally aren't comparable.
On another note do you think Superman can defend against Flash's IMP? Flying would obviously work.
Of course but the battles Wally has make Superman's feats look tame in comparison. And no flying wouldn't work as Wally can actually fly. Here he's running in space and he's done this on multiple occasions.
@squalleon: The Speed Force allows the user to travel on any terrain as long as they are tapping into the speed force when they move. Or if you prefer
I'm not saying that Zoom or any other SF user wouldn't beat Superman. What i'm refuting is the legitimacy of the IMP and this thought process that Flash and, Zoom for that matter, hit harder than Superman when the latter has much better showings. Yes, I know Zoom jobs, but that doesn't defeat the fact that on panel his punches have not been shown to be as powerful as Supermans. You think the finger snap vs the thunder clap is a testament of his advantage of Superman, but it isn't. Do you really think Superman couldn't do the same if he so wished? I'm sorry but until I get some legit showing of this praised punching power, i'm not going to jock the IMP. In fact, it's hypocritical that we accept the IMP and this claimed 'punching strength' of Zoom and SF users, while at the same time deny and argue over the legitimacy of someone like Thor's one-off, claim of power, or hard to clearly interpret feats.
The finger clap example was a demonstration of how Speed Force users can create sonic booms by snapping their fingers whereas Superman or other powerhouses have to exert force in their hits to create sonic booms. That alone demonstrates the inherent power SF users have over Superman. So yeah you're still wrong there as Superman can't replicate that feat since, by your own words, there isn't on panel evidence for it. Superman hasn't shown to be able to hit at near infinite mass let alone at the mass of a white dwarf star. The simple physics behind the power of Wally's hits is that as he moves faster and faster, he builds more mass and generates more force with his punches. That's the basics of it and that's all I understand given science is far from my strong point. But of course, you want more proof. Now where in all the world can I find more proof of why Wally can hit much, much harder than Superman...
I'm not saying that Zoom or any other SF user wouldn't beat Superman. What i'm refuting is the legitimacy of the IMP and this thought process that Flash and, Zoom for that matter, hit harder than Superman when the latter has much better showings. Yes, I know Zoom jobs, but that doesn't defeat the fact that on panel his punches have not been shown to be as powerful as Supermans. You think the finger snap vs the thunder clap is a testament of his advantage of Superman, but it isn't. Do you really think Superman couldn't do the same if he so wished? I'm sorry but until I get some legit showing of this praised punching power, i'm not going to jock the IMP. In fact, it's hypocritical that we accept the IMP and this claimed 'punching strength' of Zoom and SF users, while at the same time deny and argue over the legitimacy of someone like Thor's one-off, claim of power, or hard to clearly interpret feats.
The finger clap example was a demonstration of how Speed Force users can create sonic booms by snapping their fingers whereas Superman or other powerhouses have to exert force in their hits to create sonic booms. That alone demonstrates the inherent power SF users have over Superman. So yeah you're still wrong there as Superman can't replicate that feat since, by your own words, there isn't on panel evidence for it. Superman hasn't shown to be able to hit at near infinite mass let alone at the mass of a white dwarf star. The simple physics behind the power of Wally's hits is that as he moves faster and faster, he builds more mass and generates more force with his punches. That's the basics of it and that's all I understand given science is far from my strong point. But of course, you want more proof. Now where in all the world can I find more proof of why Wally can hit much, much harder than Superman...
How is that anything special.....I don't follow. Of course Superman would have to exert force to create a sonic boom....so did Zoom. If he didn't then there would have been no sonic boom. So no, I actually don't need on panel evidence for that since it should be glaringly obvious that Superman would be able to create a sonic boom. A finger snap boom isn't some special power or anything. And this is where my problem with the IMP arises. All we have is a text box that claims Wallys punch hit that strong. That's not enough for me. On panel, Superman has hit much much harder. The fact that he hit Wonder Woman from the Sun to the Earth at MFTL speed implies a tremendous amount of power and speed in that hit. I mean if you want the science behind it, I think you can apply F=M*A. The force that superman would have had to put behind his punch to send the 60 kg WW accelerating at MFTL speeds (IIRC she only blacked out for an instance) would ,again, be tremendous. That's a much more impressive punch than anything Wally has done.
And, IIRC, wasn't the Anti Monitor pre weakened?
@buttersdaman000: I can see the deleted comment you know. But since you want examples, I'll provide one of my own. But how is Wally's monologue not Morrison's commentary when it's Morrison who's writing Wally's inner monologue? You undermine your point there. But onto my example. Remember when Thor hit the Phoenix Force in AvX 4?
Yeah those two scans. Without interpretation on that event, it's unclear what happens. But here's what Hickman confirmed. The Phoenix was knocked out, landed on another planet and consumed it. Then it beat Thor. Obviously that was one of Thor's high end feats that doesn't corroborate with what he can normally do but for story purposes, Thor KOed the PF, even if temporarily. I find it hard to go against the writer's word on direct instances like this.
@buttersdaman000: I can see the deleted comment you know. But since you want examples, I'll provide one of my own. But how is Wally's monologue not Morrison's commentary when it's Morrison who's writing Wally's inner monologue? You undermine your point there. But onto my example. Remember when Thor hit the Phoenix Force in AvX 4?
Yeah those two scans. Without interpretation on that event, it's unclear what happens. But here's what Hickman confirmed. The Phoenix was knocked out, landed on another planet and consumed it. Then it beat Thor. Obviously that was one of Thor's high end feats that doesn't corroborate with what he can normally do but for story purposes, Thor KOed the PF, even if temporarily. I find it hard to go against the writer's word on direct instances like this.
I deleted my comment by accident...so what? The posted one is exactly the same.....
Inner monologue and writer commentary aren't the same unless you want to treat character conversation as such as well. As far as I can tell, this isn't accepted on the battle forum. If it were, then there would be no arguments about the veracity of Supermans planet busting capabilities since he's said it multiple times.
What does this Thor feat have to do with anything we're talking about? I know you're trying to use it to support your writer claim, but they really aren't the same. Hickman himself, outside of the comic, explained the feat. There can really be no dispute here. If Morrison were to do the same, i'll eat my words.
@buttersdaman000: The punch actually sent Zoom from Mt Rushmore to Africa. You can see Mt Rushmore blurred in the background before Wally hits Zoom and then after he lands, zebras and antelopes are scattering around Zum from where he's landed. Your examples are weaker because of the Anti Monitor example I'm afraid. That one feat blows the other two impressive Superman feats out of the water. None of the Pre Crisis heroes, such as Superman who was MUCH stronger than the Post Crisis Superman whose feats you cite
Wally even lent the Pre Crisis heroes speed to help them out
but when that didn't work, he stepped in and destroyed the Anti Monitor's armour himself, a feat that not even the combined Pre Crisis forces at the end of COIE could accomplish without prep and help from Darkseid. When Superman shows striking feats like that, let me know. And I know a great deal about Superman's feats in the first place so trust me, he hasn't hit anywhere near as hard as that. To deal with one of your original questions about that feat, no the Anti Monitor was not weakened in that instance. Wally was fighting the same Anti Monitor that was barely phased by all those heroes and did something none of those other heroes, who were more powerful than their Post Crisis counterparts could achieve.
And, no. The anti-monitor feat changes nothing. The fact that in the two above instances, where his punches were explained out to be some of his most powerful, but instead fail to trump Superman's speak for something. It's contradictory, and high end. His two most powerful punches fail in comparison to Superman's and then he turns around and outclasses Pre-Crisis Superman? I'm not buying it. And what comic is that from? Because i'm pretty sure the Anti-Monitor was weakened. There was an x factor somewhere in there
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