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#51 Edited by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's clarify some things.

  • Tower of Babel was not a win for Batman, but it showed without a doubt that he was capable of incapacitating the other members of the justice league. He would not have made plans that he would be unable to implement, and given the resources of his companies it is very likely he would have easily been able to implement them.
  • TDKR was a win for Batman. It doesn't matter if Superman was holding back, it doesn't matter that he needed help. At the end of the fight, Superman was at Batman's mercy as he beat on him. If someone more powerful than me is holding back as I attack them, I've still won if I manage to get them down on the ground at my mercy. Superman fans can relax, as this wasn't a canon story.
  • Hush was in no way a win for Batman. It showed at short notice he can handle Superman, barely. I will say that he knew the situation and was counting on being able to bring Clark back, not beat him. If his goal had been different, no doubt his approach would have been.

Yeah yeah.

@shieldzeal said:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/citizenbane/blog/superman-vs-batman/79268/

Seriously, read this blog from CitizenBane. After reading it, you will understand that all other Superman vs Batman threads/videos/arguments are completely superfluous.

I find it really annoying people reference that blog post. It is passionately written, but utter nonsense. There has to be plenty of other non-biased, objective analysis's.

#52 Posted by sage1000 (67 posts) - - Show Bio

hey MuyJingo If I remember correctly at the end of the fight in TDKR Superman was the one left standing and Batman had to fake his death to get out of the fight so exactly how was the fight a win for Batman? and isn't it convenient the way you simply hand wave away all the other encounters between them also if you can point out one incorrect fact from the blog it would be helpful to know exactly what part of it was "utter nonsense".

You know whats funny I can list a lot of ways up the top of my head that Superman can beat Batman but whenever I ask a batman fanatic exactly how they propose he's going to beat superman they shrug and say he has a plan or because he's batman.

In an fight between the two of them without prep time Superman takes it and even with prep time he still takes it cause giving both of them prep time also means superman gets it and its not like he doesn't have a spare hamzat suit or one of his anti-kryptonite suits he has been shown to wear on numerous occasions and I can't seem to get any Batman fanatic to come up with a way that Batman would win in a fight.

The moment someone can come up with a way for Batman to beat Superman one on one without it being too ridiculous or requiring high amounts of stupid on Superman's part or Superman simply surrendering I would admit defeat and move on

#53 Posted by ComicStooge (13763 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

Let's clarify some things.

  • Tower of Babel was not a win for Batman, but it showed without a doubt that he was capable of incapacitating the other members of the justice league. He would not have made plans that he would be unable to implement, and given the resources of his companies it is very likely he would have easily been able to implement them.
  • TDKR was a win for Batman. It doesn't matter if Superman was holding back, it doesn't matter that he needed help. At the end of the fight, Superman was at Batman's mercy as he beat on him. If someone more powerful than me is holding back as I attack them, I've still won if I manage to get them down on the ground at my mercy. Superman fans can relax, as this wasn't a canon story.
  • Hush was in no way a win for Batman. It showed at short notice he can handle Superman, barely. I will say that he knew the situation and was counting on being able to bring Clark back, not beat him. If his goal had been different, no doubt his approach would have been.

Yeah yeah.

@shieldzeal said:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/citizenbane/blog/superman-vs-batman/79268/

Seriously, read this blog from CitizenBane. After reading it, you will understand that all other Superman vs Batman threads/videos/arguments are completely superfluous.

I find it really annoying people reference that blog post. It is passionately written, but utter nonsense. There has to be plenty of other non-biased, objective analysis's.

That article had no bias at all. CitizenBane enjoys both characters. Is it because it highlights how totally outmatched Batman is against Superman, in almost all of his fights?

#54 Posted by Loki9876 (3053 posts) - - Show Bio

he's right

#55 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@sage1000 said:

hey MuyJingo If I remember correctly at the end of the fight in TDKR Superman was the one left standing and Batman had to fake his death to get out of the fight so exactly how was the fight a win for Batman? and isn't it convenient the way you simply hand wave away all the other encounters between them also if you can point out one incorrect fact from the blog it would be helpful to know exactly what part of it was "utter nonsense".

I consider the post nonsense because of the extreme bias and factual inaccuracies. Bruce didn't fake his death to escape, he faked his death to retire and avoid the government, after already beating Superman.

Saying Bruce didn't is factually incorrect. He also exaggerates what Superman is really capable of, by finding one crappy writer who exceeded his powers and then trying to argue Superman is always capable of that.

You know whats funny I can list a lot of ways up the top of my head that Superman can beat Batman but whenever I ask a batman fanatic exactly how they propose he's going to beat superman they shrug and say he has a plan or because he's batman.

Actually I think there are a few ways Batman could beat Superman with prep. I agree if neither have prep Batman is screwed.

We know that Bruce can hide from Superman. He can hide his heartbeat, is a master of disguise etc. He has stealth as an advantage. We know he is capable of developing technology that can harm superman....synthesized krypton, nanites, red sun light etc.

We saw in TDKR that he has suits that can allow him to hit without breaking his hand/body.

Why is it so hard to believe that Batman with prep could beat Superman without prep? I say this as a fan of both characters.

In an fight between the two of them without prep time Superman takes it and even with prep time he still takes it cause giving both of them prep time also means superman gets it and its not like he doesn't have a spare hamzat suit or one of his anti-kryptonite suits he has been shown to wear on numerous occasions and I can't seem to get any Batman fanatic to come up with a way that Batman would win in a fight.

It's nonsense to say if batman gets prep superman gets prep. That isn't true at all. There are 4 possibilities. Both with prep, neither with prep, one or the other with prep.

The only one I would say for sure where Batman could win is if he alone had prep. I'm not saying it is guaranteed, but I think it is certainly believable.

The moment someone can come up with a way for Batman to beat Superman one on one without it being too ridiculous or requiring high amounts of stupid on Superman's part or Superman simply surrendering I would admit defeat and move on

Hide from him, lure him by placing lois into danger into a place that has advantages for him....lead lined walls, red sunlight etc. Beat him down, disable him in some way. I think it could be a well written story, it just hasn't been written yet. Maybe something will happen in the Injustice comic.

That article had no bias at all. CitizenBane enjoys both characters. Is it because it highlights how totally outmatched Batman is against Superman, in almost all of his fights?

That's pretty funny. No bias? He denies legitimate wins. He argues that Batman isn't capable of implementing the plans he made in order to one day implement. There's more.

Really, no bias?

#56 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

Let's clarify some things.

  • Tower of Babel was not a win for Batman, but it showed without a doubt that he was capable of incapacitating the other members of the justice league. He would not have made plans that he would be unable to implement, and given the resources of his companies it is very likely he would have easily been able to implement them.
  • TDKR was a win for Batman. It doesn't matter if Superman was holding back, it doesn't matter that he needed help. At the end of the fight, Superman was at Batman's mercy as he beat on him. If someone more powerful than me is holding back as I attack them, I've still won if I manage to get them down on the ground at my mercy. Superman fans can relax, as this wasn't a canon story.
  • Hush was in no way a win for Batman. It showed at short notice he can handle Superman, barely. I will say that he knew the situation and was counting on being able to bring Clark back, not beat him. If his goal had been different, no doubt his approach would have been.

Yeah yeah.

@shieldzeal said:

http://www.comicvine.com/profile/citizenbane/blog/superman-vs-batman/79268/

Seriously, read this blog from CitizenBane. After reading it, you will understand that all other Superman vs Batman threads/videos/arguments are completely superfluous.

I find it really annoying people reference that blog post. It is passionately written, but utter nonsense. There has to be plenty of other non-biased, objective analysis's.

Citizen Bane prefers Batman to Superman. How's that for a non biased objective viewpoint when a Bat fan admits Superman wins? The only nonsense I've seen is your half hearted attempt to try and justify a scenario where Batman wins. Most of your points were based on situations Superman has faced and overcome before which reduces the validity of your arguments for Batman pulling off a win. Seriously Bruce's prep isn't even that good half the time for Superman and you cherry pick instances of aspects of Batman's prep beating Superman and leave out important factors.

#57 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger said:

Citizen Bane prefers Batman to Superman. How's that for a non biased objective viewpoint when a Bat fan admits Superman wins? The only nonsense I've seen is your half hearted attempt to try and justify a scenario where Batman wins. Most of your points were based on situations Superman has faced and overcome before which reduces the validity of your arguments for Batman pulling off a win. Seriously Bruce's prep isn't even that good half the time for Superman and you cherry pick instances of aspects of Batman's prep beating Superman and leave out important factors.

Interesting. Could you back up your statements, I'm genuinely curious.

What did I cherry pick, and what important factors did I leave out? I haven't done so deliberately and would like to fix this.

As far as CB's bias, he can be biased in his opinion of who wins the fight, regardless of which character he likes more. It's still bias.

#58 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

Interesting. Could you back up your statements, I'm genuinely curious.

What did I cherry pick, and what important factors did I leave out? I haven't done so deliberately and would like to fix this.

As far as CB's bias, he can be biased in his opinion of who wins the fight, regardless of which character he likes more. It's still bias.

With pleasure.

  • Based on his eidetic memory and super speed, Superman's actually smarter than Batman really. He's not a half bad tactician either.
  • In your Tower of Babel example, you miss out the fact R'as Al Ghul has a frickin League of Shadows and a vast network of subordinates and resources to carry out this plan. Batman has nowhere near the level of organisation R'as had so it's highly unlikely he could have implemented that plan. R'as beat Superman with Batman's prep but R'as greater resources let it be carried out.
  • Batman would never legitimately threaten innocents in character. He even said he or Catwoman would save Lois if Superman wasn't going to in the Hush fight. So that's not a good basis for Batman's use of psychology. Even the bomb he threatened to blow was placed on himself. You overplay Batman's willingness to do what must be done.
  • Superman's weaknesses are not as huge as you think. He's survived a kryptonite laced nuclear explosion and Batman thinks a small ring will hurt Superman? It's folly to think that Batman's usual prep stands any sort of chance of beating Superman. As for red sunlight, Superman's tanked blasts from sun eaters before so whatever Batman can throw at him is no big deal.
  • Superman's not exactly the type to easily fall for a trap. In the pure context of a battle, Batman would be hard pressed to make Superman fall for a trap. And even if he does, it's not the game changer you make it out to be.
  • Ooh lead? That's something Superman has no defense against. Except to rip it apart or just listen to what Batman's doing
  • Hide from a man with superhuman sense? Kind of impossible without any shapeshifting powers. Batman doesn't have those except in the eyes of his fanboys.
  • Not too good on nanotech but this isn't a part of Batman's anti Superman contingent plans.
  • Superman has been weakened extremely and yet still retains plenty of power. Batman would have to drain Superman dry to beat him in combat.

If you want I can nit pick your example but this is enough for now.

#59 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger: Hmmm, I'm not really seeing any problems.

  • I acknowledge Superman is smarter than Bruce(although I think it is ridiculous)
  • Are you serious on this point? Don't be daft. Once again, Bruce would not have developed plans he could not have implemented. The guy is a billionaire...he has the resources. Don't you worry.
  • It is a perfect use. He can threaten Lois without ever planning to hurt her, just as he did in Hush. He only has to convince Superman she is in danger, not actually hurt her.
  • Disagree here. His vulnerability to kryptonite and red sunlight fluctuate over time and depending on the writer. There are examples of him waving it off and succumbing to it easily. I maintain it could be used effectively and believably as part of a plot in which Batman defeats Superman.
  • Errr.....OK? That's one opinion. I think Bruce is a better tactician and stretgist and could certainly lure Bruce into a trap. It is a gamechanger, because if Bruce can control the environment that is a huge advantage.
  • Lead is something that can help. That's all.
  • OK, so how would superman find Batman? Assume Batman is hiding his heartbeat and is in disguise.
  • It hasn't been so far. It could be.
  • Again, depends on the writer.
#60 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: Oh I still see problems

  • Fine then.
  • Are you being serious? You clearly overlook the fact Superman would be capable of listening out for Bruce's voice to hear what he's planning. Then there's the things you miss from Bane's blog. What's your response to Ra's having a fortune that means comparing the Wayne fortune to his own wealth would be akin to comparing a drop of water to the ocean or something along those lines. Or the fact he has an army at his beck and call? Bruce may have had plans to implement them but that doesn't mean they'd work as well as Ra's could make them. So what's your official response there?
  • If Superman hadn't shaken off the mind control, Batman would have saved Lois. You think he'd let her die? Superman might well kill him then if he let that happen. And credit for that victory goes to Catwoman in all honesty. All Bruce did was punch Superman and lure him into tanking the entire city power grid. None of which were effective and Superman was holding back. Not speed blitzing or moving faster than any human could ever hope to acomplish. Batman's prep amounts to nothing against an opponent as fast as Superman.
  • If tanking a nuclear explosion containing kryptonite and surviving blasts from an entity as powerful as a Sun Eater aren't good examples of why Superman's weaknesses aren't game changers, I don't know how Batman can implement them effectively even with a lot of prep time.
  • Not really. And again yours is just one opinion. Superman's been in surroundings with his weaknesses like on the remains of Krypton or on worlds with red suns and survived just fine. You're blowing Superman's weaknesses out of proportion.
  • What kind of disguise are you talking about? You're not making it very clear in your blog. And you know Superman can just x-ray Bruce through the disguise. And even if you're right Superman can still recognise Bruce on the molecular level. He recognised Dan Turpin's DNA in Final Crisis so suffice to say he can recognise the DNA of his close friend. The disguise won't work at the molecular level.
  • More often than not, Superman hasn't been fully drained in certain circumstances with his weaknesses present. He pulls something off to catch his breath.
#61 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@lvenger:

  • No, Superman couldn't find Bruce. There is another scan, I think in the thread based on my blog where Bruce has a voice modulator or something that is good enough to fool Superman. Point being, Batman can hide though technology.
  • I think it makes no difference that Ra's resources dwarf Waynes. Wayne only need have enough to implement his plan, which he does.
  • Why are you mentioning hush? It has little to do with what I said.
  • Did you read what I said? It is shown both ways, him shrugging them off and easily succumbing. It's up to the writer to make it believable in the context of the story.
  • Are you such a superman fanboi that you can't even admit lead may help, in any capacity? He can't see through it. There are ways to utilize that as an advantage.
  • I don't need to make it clear, do I? Bruce is a master of disguise. What makes you think he couldn't fool Superman, especially if his voice is changed, heartbeat faded etc. Superman would have to find Bruce first to scan him at the molecular level.
  • Just to repeat: Again, depends on the writer.
#62 Posted by Lvenger (21066 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

  • I'll be interested to see a scan or reference but until then I stand by my original point. I doubt your scan will have the original context in hand anyway.
  • It makes all the difference. Besides, Bruce is under scrutiny from the rest of the League so I doubt he can get close enough to pull off his strategy for Superman anyway. Bruce doesn't have nanosecond reaction times so trying to tag Superman is going to be very hard for a mere mortal
  • You mentioned it first. He can threaten Lois without ever planning to hurt her, just as he did in Hush. Your words not mine.
  • Perfect;y. What I am saying is that you're still blowing Superman's weaknesses out of proportion. They don't always change the flow of a battle. He's resisted magic, kryptonite and red sun radiation before on some level which would be greater than what Batman could bring at him. Does Batman have a Kryptonite nuke, a sun eater or a magic spell at his disposal? Didn't think so.
  • Don't use the fanboy word. I'm sick and tired of it. You're not the first and you won't be the last. Stop using this pitiful excuse to counter my arguments. I know when Superman can be beaten and Batman is an unlikely candidate for this job.
  • You need to mention what you mean though. Does he disguise his face so Superman can't recognise him that can't be countered through heat vision or with the heartbeat, he can still pick up Batman's heart faintly. This is a guy who can hear everything from the Watchtower (from Tower of Babel) I doubt Batman can fool him with some tech. And he's trying to beat Superman, how does hiding from Superman help him beat him? I have the scans to prove he can pick people out at the molecular level, can you prove he can fool even Superman
  • Once again, based on the consistency of exposure to his weaknesses, Superman can shrug it off. Enough to KO Batman anyway.
#63 Edited by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

lolwut? Now you're just reaching.

  • A scan of what? Of Bruce disguising his voice from Superman?
  • Lol...this is just ridiculous. Let me make this simple for you. The league has nothing to do with this.
  • Yes, I made a comparison so you would get the point. You then argued against what happened in Hush, which makes no sense.
  • I don't think you understand what it means, when powers, abilities and more importantly weaknesses fluctuate with the writer. You're cherry picking the times where he has been least affected. Why are the times where he was most affected any less valid?
  • Then stop acting like one. If you can't argue something objectively and without bias, then what's the point? Dismissing lead entirely is fanboi behaviour. It's a weakness, it's that simple.
  • I've already told you, he won't be able to detect Batman's heartbeat. In the story where Batman defeats the white martians, he shows this device/capability. I'm not providing you with enough scan, because you are already well aware of this, and have already argued it in the thread of my blog. Either accept it in canon, or make some excuse to counter it. As for what I mean? Decent prosthetics, body language etc. Bruce is a master of disguise...if Superman can't identify him at the molecular level, by his voice or by his heartbeat, how would he find him? I have no idea what you think heatvision has to do with anything.
  • This is a pretty silly argument. It's not just silly, it's downright fallacious. Again, you're cherry picking his best examples and arguing that is what holds true for him. Why are the examples of him being more easily weakened any less valid? Are you just dismissing them as PIS?

#64 Edited by Saren (26021 posts) - - Show Bio

While we're on the subject of cherrypicking examples, how about we cherrypick examples of Batman's success rate with kryptonite in continuity?

Hush? Failed to stop Superman or anything close to that outcome.

Superman/Batman #23? Dude was literally glowing with kryptonite, still failed.

How about we decide that the kryptonite Batman carries around is inadequate against Superman for the simple reason that he has a success rate of zero percent with it?

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#65 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

The Dark Knight Returns is not a win for Batman, I have no idea how anyone can read that and say it is. If I walk up and punch a bear, and then say I won, did I win? When does it become a win, if I draw blood? Ok, I walk up to a bear and smack him in the face with a baseball bat, and he gets a nose bleed, then say I won, did I win? What if the bear mauls me, breaking my wrist and ribs, and the only way I survive is by sneaking away, its still a win as long as I said I won right? Now lets say the bear ACCIDENTALLY hurt me and wasnt even trying, and then my good friend swings down and shoots the bear with an arrow, oh and the bear gets nuked, and all I do is basically give the bear a nose bleed, but he breaks my ribs and wrist? "I BEAT YOU BEAR!"

You see where that absurd thinking gets you. Batman fans, here it is:
It is GREAT that you love Batman to the point of irrationality, it is awesome that you want him to always win, its a little sad that you think him punching Superman (Not KOing, Killing, Immobilizing, BFRing, Incapacitating, etc) a couple of times is a win for Batman. Also, loving a character doesnt mean he wouldnt get "squished into the cement" (to QUOTE BRUCE HIMSELF) when he fights an alien god.

#66 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@citizenbane: Oh, I agree. Batman hasn't had much success with Kryptonite in continuity. His plan from tower of babel worked well and out of continuity it worked well in TKDR.

It's also out of continuity, but I am expecting a big Batman/Superman battle in Injustice which will probably use Kryptonite. At the least it will be entertaining.

If we are to include the kryptonite he carries around is useless, why do you think Clark left it with Batman in case he went rouge? What would be the point, if he knew it to be ineffective?

The Dark Knight Returns is not a win for Batman, I have no idea how anyone can read that and say it is. If I walk up and punch a bear, and then say I won, did I win? When does it become a win, if I draw blood? Ok, I walk up to a bear and smack him in the face with a baseball bat, and he gets a nose bleed, then say I won, did I win? What if the bear mauls me, breaking my wrist and ribs, and the only way I survive is by sneaking away, its still a win as long as I said I won right? Now lets say the bear ACCIDENTALLY hurt me and wasnt even trying, and then my good friend swings down and shoots the bear with an arrow, oh and the bear gets nuked, and all I do is basically give the bear a nose bleed, but he breaks my ribs and wrist? "I BEAT YOU BEAR!"

If bear was at your mercy after being infected with a fatal toxic substance, as you continually punched bear in the face, yes, you certainly did beat the bear.

#67 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

Wait do you believe if that battle had gone on, Batman would have KOed or Killed Superman, because I am 100% he wouldnt have. He had already hit Supes with everything he, the government, the entire city, and Oliver Queen had, and all it did was give Superman a nosebleed. Had it gone on, Bruce would have been killed ON ACCIDENT. As in, Superman would never have started trying, but still accidentally killed Bruce, just because Bruce was so frail and Supes was so strong. Superman had already accidentally maimed Bruce.

And Bruce knew he would lose, he merely wanted a

moral victory

. Basically, the point was showing up, standing against impossible odds, and actually making a god bleed (like in 300). Thats why he faked his death, because there was no way to walk out with a real win, but he could at least show up. Its actually depressing that so many people miss the point.



The point of the Kryptonite in-universe was to show Superman trusted Bruce. The reason the writers did it was to wank Batman. That little piece of K-Nite really is useless, and if Batman wasnt the most popular DC character, Superman would have given it to Shazam, Wonder Woman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, or shoot even Aquaman before Bruce, as they could maybe get somewhere with it. In fact, give MM even that slight edge, and he could probably utterly annihilate Superman. Called what it is: Fanservice.

#68 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: No I don't think that Buce would have killed him. I think he would have left after Supeman was unconscious..., after Supeman recovered, then it may have gone differently. As it stands, Supeman was at Batman's mercy. That's a win.

He didn't fake his death because he couldn't win physically. He faked his death so the government would stop coming after him.

#69 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@deaditegonzo: No I don't think that Buce would have killed him. I think he would have left after Supeman was unconscious..., after Supeman recovered, then it may have gone differently. As it stands, Supeman was at Batman's mercy. That's a win.

He didn't fake his death because he couldn't win physically. He faked his death so the government would stop coming after him.

But Superman wasnt, there is not even a second in that confrontation where Bruce looked like he was winning. Superman could literally hear him dying. And sure, it was because of the poison, but frankly, without the poison he was still suffering injuries even a young healthy person couldnt scoff at, let alone an old man. The only person in that entire book that had even a temporary advantage against Supes was Queen, when Supes caught the K-Nite arrow and it exploded, and then that instant passed.

No, the government wasnt his concern, it was Superman. He could beat the government all day long, but he knew he could never beat Superman. It was a moral victory that he was going for, like Leonidas futilely throwing his spear in 300 (notice they have the same writer even).

#70 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

Anyway, as this topic frustrates me to no end, what it comes down to is, in a Forum Battle, as in no PIS, Superman is actually trying to beat Batman (through any of the usual means), there is literally no situation where Batman wins, unless we use the most biased parameters possible (Superman vs Batman in a Red Son stadium, where Batman has a Kryptonite Gun, and Super strength "Serum", etc).

There is no instance, canon or otherwise, where Batman fights a Superman who is actually trying, because if he did, even with 1000 years of prep, it would end in a single panel with Batman dead.

#71 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo:

So you don't call Supeman infected with kyrptonite being beat on at mercy? That's just strange, and I don't know that any more can be said, since he petty clearly was. It isn't really a matter of interpretation.

He wasn't going for a moral victory. He was doing it to get the government to stop hunting him. That relates to Supeman, since Supeman was a tool of the government.

#72 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo said:

@deaditegonzo:

So you don't call Supeman infected with kyrptonite being beat on at mercy? That's just strange, and I don't know that any more can be said, since he petty clearly was. It isn't really a matter of interpretation.

He wasn't going for a moral victory. He was doing it to get the government to stop hunting him. That relates to Supeman, since Supeman was a tool of the government.

Superman has been infected by Kryptonite TONS of times and fought many people infinitely more dangerous than Batman. Shoot, Ending Battle framed up the same kind of concept (Kryptonite dust all over the place) and Superman still managed to fight 3 baddies, one of which was Mongul, and win. Kryptonite Man poisons him every time they fight. Same with Metallo. All of those guys are stronger than Batman.

I agree it isnt a matter of interpretation, as it is pretty clear Bruce was taking a lot more damage than Clark and was in no condition to continue, whereas Clark clearly could. Notice as he is holding Bruce, he isnt gasping, or unable to move, he looks none the worse for wear.

Bruce wanted to prove his point and then escape Clark with dignity. He knew he couldnt win. As did Frank Miller, once upon a time.

#73 Edited by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

I find it interesting how many pages of arguments are needed to settle this. I didn't even need the video. You tell me superman, a guy with super human speed, strength, sight, sound, intelligence, heat vision, ice breath, etc is facing batman, a human being, logic should tell any sane person that superman ends the battle before batman even blinks.

#74 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo:

Sigh.

TKDR stands alone in it's own continuity. The other examples you mention are pretty much irrelevant. In this case, it was enough to weaken him and for Bruce to beat on him.

It doesn't matter how much you insist he faked his death to escape Clark, it isn't the case. He could have killed Clark if he wanted to. He faked his death to get the government of his back, and indirectly superman. It's been a while since I've read the comic, but IIRC this is strongly alluded to.

I'm not arguing this point anymore, as we are just going around in circles. Unless you can show some dialogue that indicates your interpretation is the correct one?

#75 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: I dont need to as my interpretation is clearly shown. Youre merely taking Bruce at his word, which I can show you instances of Dr. Doom calling himself the greatest being on Earth, doesnt make it true.

It is clear Superman could continue to fight, it is also clear that Bruce could not. That is all that needs to be said.

And yes, it is in its own continuity, but even in that Universe, it was shown that Superman can still fight even when poisoned by Kryptonite. In fact, his injuries from the kryptonite were incredibly less severe than Bruce's just from Superman poking him. When Supes is at Batman's mercy as you put it, he LITERALLY says "Bruce, your heart." Not "Ow youre beating me up." or "I am dying here.", simply "Bruce, Youre [Old Human] Heart."

#76 Posted by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

Is anyone really surprised that Batman beat Superman in the Battle Arena? It was obvious from the start. There was no debating, no feats, no knowledge, it was simply a popularity contest and to be upfront, Batman is destroying Superman in the general public in that regard.

There's no need for us to argue that fact.

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#77 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

Is anyone really surprised that Batman beat Superman in the Battle Arena? It was obvious from the start. There was no debating, no feats, no knowledge, it was simply a popularity contest and to be upfront, Batman is destroying Superman in the general public in that regard.

There's no need for us to argue that fact.

True. But there is a need to argue the fact that Batman could take Superman JUST based on their individual capabilities and feats alone.

#78 Edited by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees: Everyone here who is ventured through the Battle forums or has a miniscule amount of knowledge with DC comics knows the answer to that. Even Batman himself knows the answer to that.

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#79 Edited by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees: Everyone here who is ventured through the Battle forums or has a miniscule amount of knowledge with DC comics knows the answer to that. Even Batman himself knows the answer to that.

I know. That doesn't mean we should STOP trying to curtail the spread of ignorance from people who don't know any better, now do we?

#80 Posted by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees: Those who care to learn, will not argue. Those who refuse to learn, will argue and that's essentially how flame wars begin.

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#81 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually thought of a cool way Batman could beat Superman, and hit a very neglected plot point and make Batman become the tyrannical villain:

Batman blocks the yellow sun radiation over a large swatch of the US, including Metropolis. At first, its just an invisible filter in the atmosphere (a chemical or some kind of Magnetic screen). Then, Batman, either through a liaison (like Lex) or a false identity (maybe one that hearkens back to an older story in a cool way, ex General Zod) contacts Superman's biggest enemies and has them attack him one after another, all the while he is slowly, unknowingly burning up his energy reserves. Then, as Superman reaches his very limits, the "opaque" sun blocking "cloud" darkens, and Metropolis falls into an endless night, which is Batman's milieu. Superman contacts Bruce, him being the most clever person Superman knows and the world's greatest detective, and asks him to investigate why the sun is being blocked and if the villains are related. Batman agrees. Superman asks him & the League to watch Metropolis and flies to the Fortress of Solitude to recharge, nearly completely burnt out from constant battle and weeks without exposure to the yellow sun. Batman is waiting, with a Kryptonite Gun (a "gun" as it shows purely and definitively Batman's fall). He kills the last son of Krypton, as Superman asks why. "To finally bring order to a chaotic world, to make sure a child is never orphaned again by a psychopath. You, you were the only one who could stop me, there was no plan I could concoct where I could overcome you alone. Now, the league will fall one by one, and then, Law will reign supreme."

Batman would walk out of the Fortress of Solitude. Soon, there are Bat drones and OMACs policing every city, and Batman rules with an Iron Fist.

Id dig that, somebody call Jim Lee, have him draw some sketches lol.

#82 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget: So, you're saying we should give up the fight?

#83 Posted by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

I actually thought of a cool way Batman could beat Superman, and hit a very neglected plot point and make Batman become the tyrannical villain:

Batman blocks the yellow sun radiation over a large swatch of the US, including Metropolis. At first, its just an invisible filter in the atmosphere (a chemical or some kind of Magnetic screen). Then, Batman, either through a liaison (like Lex) or a false identity (maybe one that hearkens back to an older story in a cool way, ex General Zod) contacts Superman's biggest enemies and has them attack him one after another, all the while he is slowly, unknowingly burning up his energy reserves. Then, as Superman reaches his very limits, the "opaque" sun blocking "cloud" darkens, and Metropolis falls into an endless night, which is Batman's milieu. Superman contacts Bruce, him being the most clever person Superman knows and the world's greatest detective, and asks him to investigate why the sun is being blocked and if the villains are related. Batman agrees. Superman asks him & the League to watch Metropolis and flies to the Fortress of Solitude to recharge, nearly completely burnt out from constant battle and weeks without exposure to the yellow sun. Batman is waiting, with a Kryptonite Gun (a "gun" as it shows purely and definitively Batman's fall). He kills the last son of Krypton, as Superman asks why. "To finally bring order to a chaotic world, to make sure a child is never orphaned again by a psychopath. You, you were the only one who could stop me, there was no plan I could concoct where I could overcome you alone. Now, the league will fall one by one, and then, Law will reign supreme."

Batman would walk out of the Fortress of Solitude. Soon, there are Bat drones and OMACs policing every city, and Batman rules with an Iron Fist.

Id dig that, somebody call Jim Lee, have him draw some sketches lol.

Dude...TELL me you have a clear outline of the story in your head!

Because, part of my training in script writing at Full Sail has involved teaching me the general basics of writing a Comic Book script, and I would LOVE to use my skills to help you make one, even if a pro like Jim Lee never sees it!

#84 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees: Unfortunately, I thought of it last night while playing Injustice, and havent actually done anything with it. Im glad I wrote it down here at least, so it will always exist, and I can come back to it whenever.

#85 Edited by HeWhoSees (629 posts) - - Show Bio

@hewhosees: Unfortunately, I thought of it last night while playing Injustice, and havent actually done anything with it. Im glad I wrote it down here at least, so it will always exist, and I can come back to it whenever.

So, when you're done plotting it out...

#86 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio
#87 Posted by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@Deranged Midget: So, you're saying we should give up the fight?

When did I say that, I just feel that it's pointless to argue it when the result is obvious and the bout has been argued over a hundred times. If someone still refuses, then they are simply trolling mate :)

@deaditegonzo: Blocking Yellow Sun radiation won't drain Superman of his power. How do you think he operates during night? He's a battery, he stores the energy while the sun constantly replenishes it. It took a monster like Doomsday to drain Superman of his reserves and they fought for hours on end at full power.

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#88 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget:
"all the while he is slowly, unknowingly burning up his energy reserves"
"flies to the Fortress of Solitude to recharge, nearly completely burnt out from constant battle and weeks without exposure to the yellow sun"

From my post. In my imagination, its a plan that takes a month or so, and a BUNCH of Superman's rogues, Mongul, Doomsday, and Bizarro coming to mind in particular.

#89 Edited by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: So what you're saying is that Batman has to wait months on end while Clark fights his most powerful opponents, all the while his power wanes, just to stand a sliver of a chance against him?

Ok :)

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#90 Posted by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: So what you're saying is that Batman has to wait months on end while Clark fights his most powerful opponents, all the while his power wanes, just to stand a sliver of a chance against him?

Ok :)

Actually, thats exactly right. Its the whole prep-time concept in actual practice.

#91 Posted by Dernman (15449 posts) - - Show Bio

@deranged_midget said:

@deaditegonzo: So what you're saying is that Batman has to wait months on end while Clark fights his most powerful opponents, all the while his power wanes, just to stand a sliver of a chance against him?

Ok :)

Actually, thats exactly right. Its the whole prep-time concept in actual practice.

One problem. Whats to stop Superman from flying to the sun and getting his radiation from there?

#92 Posted by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: Ok, but here's my opinion. That's not really Batman defeating Superman, at all. That's him cowering in the corner while Superman fights off his most powerful villains, and then when he's drained, Batman MIGHT be able to get an upper hand.

@dernman said:

One problem. Whats to stop Superman from flying to the sun and getting his radiation from there?

Thinking outside the box ;)

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#93 Posted by Dernman (15449 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman said:

One problem. Whats to stop Superman from flying to the sun and getting his radiation from there?

Thinking outside the box ;)

I laugh cause it's kings true. They tend to dumb Superman down when Batman is near so Batman doesn't come off as irrelevant.

*sits back and sees the Batboys lose their sh!te of that one.* :p

#94 Posted by Deranged Midget (17853 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman: Man, even Batman knows how utterly obsolete he is compared to Superman.

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#95 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@dernman: Thats a good point, except its pretty rare for Superman to do that. Now, it wouldnt be out of character to fly out of the atmosphere and float above Earth. We can say that Superman wanted to recharge at the fortress as he was testing the composition of the atmosphere above Metropolis or something like that.

But basically, it is a plot concession, which exists in every comic book story. Why didnt Supes sun-dip and kill Doomsday? Why doesnt he just fly most villains to the sun like he did Darkseid? Why doesnt he speed blitz, ever? In every Avenger's story, why doesnt Thor just charge a godblast while the other guys just distract the villain? Etc etc etc

#96 Posted by consolemaster001 (6041 posts) - - Show Bio

Ugh batman won -__-

#97 Posted by Z3RO180 (6669 posts) - - Show Bio

Supermans awesome.

#98 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo:

I dont need to as my interpretation is clearly shown. Youre merely taking Bruce at his word, which I can show you instances of Dr. Doom calling himself the greatest being on Earth, doesnt make it true.

OK, sorry for the delay. You're interpretation is not clearly shown. I'd say lets agree to disagree, but no. I find your interpretation interesting, but it doesn't have anything to support it. On paper, my interpretation at least has support, in the actual pages of the comic. If you can't support yours with something more substantial than reiterating the statement itself, I see no point in discussing it.

It is clear Superman could continue to fight, it is also clear that Bruce could not. That is all that needs to be said.

Yeah, nonsense. Superman was downed from Kryptonite. Please show otherwise.

And yes, it is in its own continuity, but even in that Universe, it was shown that Superman can still fight even when poisoned by Kryptonite. In fact, his injuries from the kryptonite were incredibly less severe than Bruce's just from Superman poking him.

No, not at all. This line of logic just makes you a fanboi. He was down and getting pummeled. It's great that you've come up with an alternate sequence of events where this wasn't the case, but it doesn't count for much since it wasn't shown in the comic. Sorry.

Id love to see an actual argument, maybe with pages from the comic, showing the events in the way you describe them. Oh..yeah, that's impossible.

Case closed.

#99 Edited by deaditegonzo (3690 posts) - - Show Bio

@muyjingo: W

hat long term injuries did Supes have vs Old Man Bruce? Broken bones, broken rib vs bloody nose? Batman was defeated, had the fight went on, his heart would have given out for real, or Superman would have killed him by accident (as he broke Batmans bones on accident). To avoid that foregone conclusion, Batman took the easy way out and faked his death.

It was all about taking a stand, making a statement, it was never about winning. I wish we could just ask Frank Miller, I see the same exact message on these pages as he put in 300. Much weaker force takes a stand against an impossibly powerful force, merely for the moral victory.

Even if you dont see what is explicitly shown on the page, at the very best you could claim Green Arrow and Batman beat Superman, as thats what you actually believe. If your interpretation was correct, then the only person who actually hurt Supes was Ollie.

Anyway, the one left standing is the winner, the one who needed hospice care is the loser, simple as that.

#100 Posted by MuyJingo (1936 posts) - - Show Bio

@deaditegonzo: 300 isn't relevant, aside from having the same writer. I think you're seeing an analogue where there isn't one.

And no, it's not as simple as the one left standing wins. Superman can't take credit for Bruce dying, that was part of his plan. While they were alive and the fight was on, Bruce one as he was standing, beating on Superman. The fight ceased when he died, and as it ended, he had the advantage by a longshot.

I'll give you that it was a team effort of Ollie and Bruce, and not Bruce alone.

Meh.