Does Spider-Man Love Gwen Stacy More Than Mary Jane?

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Zarius

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#101  Edited By Zarius

@artisticneedham said:
Now they are the best of friends even though they aren't dating.
No Caption Provided

"Dating", are we really drinking Marvel's revisionist Kool-Aid here? In the REAL continuity, not the present false reality created by a deal with frickin' Satan, they were HUSBAND AND WIFE.

Indeed, they still ARE a married couple in the newspaper strip and a married version of the pair will be featured in Renew Your Vows

And as for them still being close, unfortunately, as of present, (and despite her involvement in the forgotten series "Who Am I?") MJ has been noticably distant from Peter since Superior concluded, the result of a bored Dan Slott beleiving that writing them together is no longer "fun" because they can no longer take their relationship to marriage levels.

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kiba

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Peter loves MJ more even if he can't admit it sometimes and I think that's about the guilt he has over Gwens death and the fantasy he built up around their relationship. There's a comic in the clone saga where a Gwen clones tries to convince him she is real and wants them to be together but he says even if she was the real Gwen he'd never leave Mary jane.

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bookofoa

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#103  Edited By bookofoa

i think too. And i love her more too :)

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Zarius

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#104  Edited By Zarius

@bookofoa said:

i think too.

You may think so, but history is not on your side. Peter's long admitted he loves MJ more and that MJ is his soul mate. You don't see that many continuities either where Peter and Gwen have kids outside of House of M (which was undone anyway) but there are plenty of continuities where Peter and MJ have grown old together and had loads of kids (and one of those kids had the powers of Captain Universe)

As per usual, no reasons are givien why anyone loves Gwen more over MJ...probably because they can't come up with any outside of the ol' "idealized love/unfulfilled potential" crap.

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bookofoa

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@zarius said:
@bookofoa said:

i think too.

You may think so, but history is not on your side. Peter's long admitted he loves MJ more and that MJ is his soul mate. You don't see that many continuities either where Peter and Gwen have kids outside of House of M (which was undone anyway) but there are plenty of continuities where Peter and MJ have grown old together and had loads of kids (and one of those kids had the powers of Captain Universe)

As per usual, no reasons are givien why anyone loves Gwen more over MJ...probably because they can't come up with any outside of the ol' "idealized love/unfulfilled potential" crap.

If Gwen didn't die, there wouldn't be no Peter-MJ. That's what i mean. He always loved her. I think MJ knows it too.

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bookofoa

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No Caption Provided

That's my photo :)

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Zarius

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#107  Edited By Zarius

@bookofoa said:
No Caption Provided

That's my photo :)

I didn't know you were such an astute photographer (wink wink)

Norman Osborn says 'call me sweetcakes', after all, that's the only person Gwen's had kids with in 616. Reality bites doesn't it?

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kcomicfan

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#108  Edited By kcomicfan

I do think that he loved Gwen more then MJ. But that doesn't really matter, as in the main continuity he is not with either with them.

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angelalfonso

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@punyparker is going to be so happy that this thread was revived

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PunyParker

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@punyparker is going to be so happy that this thread was revived

Everybody is entitled to his opinion.
And everyone has one.

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bookofoa

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@zarius: you have to respect other people's opinion

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Zarius

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#112  Edited By Zarius

@bookofoa said:

@zarius: you have to respect other people's opinion

I do mate, I'm just having a go at you for laughs. Don't take it too seriously. it's just comics after all. If you like Gwen more, that's your thing, I simply go by what decades of stories have provided to form my own opinion.

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bookofoa

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#113  Edited By bookofoa

@zarius: yes it's comics. Not real life. No need to argue. But you did. Anyway. I still think Gwen is better choice and If she's still alive, Peter would probably be with her.

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Zarius

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#114  Edited By Zarius

@bookofoa said:

@zarius: yes it's comics. Not real life. No need to argue. But you did. Anyway. I still think Gwen is better choice and If she's still alive, Peter would probably be with her.

He probably wouldn't actually. For the same reasons Marvel don't have Peter and MJ currently together outside of the daily strips. "If Charlie Brown kicks the football, the story is over".

I don't argue opinions, opinions are fine, IF they have history backing them up, I just call them out when they don't attempt to factor in established history to support themselves.

Look at the history: Gwen hated Spider-Man, so that would have been one large obstacle to Peter being with her as she blamed his superhero persona for her father's death, she had a one-night stand with Norman Osborn and wanted Peter to take care of his bastard kids. If Peter stuck with her, it wouldn't have been an honest relationship and it would have been too awkward, that sort of thing permanently hangs over your head and makes a lie out of everything you had before. Stan and the other writers also enjoyed writing MJ more.

Not to mention there's been Spidey books since then where Gwen is alive, but Peter always ended up picking MJ. Peter dated Gwen for the majority of the Spidey Loves MJ comics, but Gwen broke up with him when she realized he valued MJ more. Bendis had Peter fall for Gwen in the Ultimate Universe after a break-up with MJ in 2010, but Peter eventually got back with the latter, just the same as he did with Kitty after the Ultimate Clone Saga (and Kitty/Peter was probably the definitive pairing of the Ultimate Spidey comics if you ask just about anyone). The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon was VERY pro Peter/Gwen, and there were no plans to kill her off if the series had advanced, but according to Greg Wiesman, even if the show had continued, Peter was destined to marry MJ at the end of that as well.

It's an opinion that Peter loves Gwen more, but it's not a fact, the fact is MJ is the one he loves the most

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bookofoa

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#115  Edited By bookofoa

@zarius: Gwen was cloned and found herself a new life. Of course he chose MJ because she wasn't actually Gwen and she already loved MJ when Gwen's absence. And Gwen was not random love of his. She was his true love. After her death life moved on. He did with MJ. But both Gwen and MJ stayed together on comics forever, I'm pretty sure, he would've chosen Gwen. Rather than chosen, moved on with her.

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GothamCiti

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I think deep down he cared for Gwen more, though he still used to love MJ a lot.

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Shellymorrel

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I & my boyfriend was planning to get married last month, just last week we had some argument that made him get angry on me just because of the argument, he said we will not marry me again and the next day he left me and we broke up. I still loved him and I wanted him to marry me, for me to get him back i had no choice than to contacted dr_mack[at] yahoo [dot] com! to help me and he helped me to bring my lover back to me so we can continue our plan to be married. he came back after 3 days, we are happily married now,

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SilverAgeReader

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Of all the possible comments anyone could have made to revive this old thread, I could not possibly have seen that one coming.

@ursaber, she's all yours.

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ItsaWorld

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Of all the possible comments anyone could have made to revive this old thread, I could not possibly have seen that one coming.

@ursaber, she's all yours.

At least they picked an actually kinda fitting place to put spam.

Oh, and there was already a comic released back in the day admitting Peter loved MJ more. He admitted he loved Gwen but after being with MJ, he was shocked to find he loved her even more than he ever could with Gwen.

Plus Gwen is kinda racist and cheated on Peter with a man twice her age that was her pal's father and got pregnant and then tried to hook up with Peter again to pretend they were his kids....classy Gwen

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Glaucus

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#120  Edited By Glaucus

In regards to how powerful,deep the love is between Peter and Mary Jane and their strong connection, we can look to One More Day (which I hate for it being obvious editorial agenda-driven) storyline that was about a demonic pact that ended the marriage to save May as well as restore Peter's secret identity as Spider-Man which he revealed to the world which led to May getting shot.

Mephisto:

"Let me explain something to you, Mrs Parker.

Have you thought for a second to ask yourselves why?

Why I chose you two out of all people?

It's because yours is the rarest love of all.

Pure, unconditional, made holy in the eyes of he who I hate most.

A love like yours comes about but once in a millennia and to take that away from him...to deny him....is a victory like none other imaginable."

Dialog between Mary Jane and Peter

Mary Jane said:

"I know, in my heart of hearts, that you and I were always meant to be together. Whatever he throws at us, whatever he does, whatever he undoes, it doesn't matter.

Because whatever he does to pull us apart would have to be bigger and stronger than what brought us together and kept us together, no matter what happened.

And there's no power in the universe big enough for a job like that. Not the devil, not God, not anybody.

We'll find each other again, and we'll be together again, I know we will. And I am always right about these things, right?"

Peter: "Right"

"I love you, Mary Jane Parker."

Mary Jane: "And I love you, Peter Parker."

In Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #8,

Mary Jane asks Peter if he still loves Gwen.

Peter tells her "Of course."

Then they are in embrace.

Peter looks at Mary Jane and tells her that he loves her more than he ever loved Gwen.

He also tells her that Gwen was his past and Mary Jane is her future.

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Glaucus

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#121  Edited By Glaucus

I have the view that Mary Jane is Peter Parker's greatest love.

Mary Jane is not only the most iconic love interest of Peter Parker/Spider-Man. She's also one of the most iconic love interests in comics. Mary Jane Watson to Peter Parker/Spider-Man is like Lois Lane to Clark Kent/Superman.

Peter and Mary Jane have been married for 20 years in the comics real time, and it took a ultra controversial storyline of demonic pact to undo the marriage. They are currently in a 30 year marriage in Stan Lee's Spider-Man newspaper strip.

They have been married with children in two alternate universes:

In the Spider-Girl comic universe, they are parents to May and Benjamin.

In the Renew Your Vows comic universe, they are parents to Anna

The Beautiful Origin of Mary Jane and Peter Parker's Relationship

Mary Jane Watson has been a major romantic interest of Peter Parker since her first appearance in Amazing Spider-Man #42. Even though many Marvel fans today see Gwen Stacy as Peter's true love, the fans back then preferred MJ. Today, we're going through the origin and history of Mary Jane and Peter's romantic relationship from the Death of Gwen Stacy, their first kiss, clones, and those famous door clicks. It's been a crazy ride.

Loading Video...

in this youtube video

Stan Lee is talking about the creation of Mary Jane Watson and Gwen Stacy.

He and other writers created a girl, Gwen Stacy who Stan thought will eventually become the future wife of Peter Parker/Spider-Man.

Just for fun, they introduced another Mary Jane Watson

Even though they were fictitious girls,

once they started writing them and their dialog,

Mary Jane suddenly had all the personality and Gwen was just a nice girl.

Mary Jane was the one with the fiery personality and she was hip and everything, and they couldn't control that.

They couldn't make Gwen exciting and personable as Mary Jane even though they tried.

It was like they were living creatures and they couldn't control them.

Maybe he shouldn't told that because maybe that showed they were lousy writers and artists.

After they killed off Gwen Stacy's father, Captain Stacy, Stan came back from a 2 week London trip and found out that Stan's fellow writer Jerry Conway killed off Gwen Stacy.

Stan Lee pointed out something that he wished had been done in the Spider-Man movies that had Mary Jane but wasn't done:

Peter Parker's Aunt May always wanted Peter to meet a girl next door that was a very nice girl,

Most boys would run a mile if their mothers tell them that they want them to meet a nice girl.

Most teenage boys don't want to meet a girl nice.

They want to meet a sexy, fun girl.

Peter kept avoiding.

He tried to do everything that he could do avoid meeting Mary Jane until May made him stay when she knew that Mary Jane was coming.

well...he hit the jackpot. heh

Loading Video...

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ursaber

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Of all the possible comments anyone could have made to revive this old thread, I could not possibly have seen that one coming.

@ursaber, she's all yours.

Just, why. There was already another thread like this that was jumped.

Mary Jane is the factual, definitive, undisputed, unquestionable true love interest/soulmate wife of Peter Parker Spider Man. End of story. If anyone likes Gwen better then that's okay for them but universally, its MJ. Its like saying Lana Lang is Superman's true love instead of Lois.

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ursaber

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@glaucus:

Despite quoting One More Day, I sincerely thank you for expressing such detailed and thorough opinions as to why MJ is the undisputed and factual definitive love interest of Spider Man beyond a shadow of a doubt.

BTW Aunt May sucks and she should be DEAD! The only two good things she ever did was die in ASM 400 and keep pushing Peter to meet MJ.

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Glaucus

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#124  Edited By Glaucus

@ursaber:

You're welcome.

I hate OMD which was the worst B.S. storyline.

It's a damned shame that such travesty undone what was probably the most popular and iconic marriage in comic history. Peter and Mary Jane even got married before Clark Kent/Superman and Lois Lane did. I would say that the two couples are the two most iconic couples in comic history.

The only good thing that OMD did was confirm that Peter and Mary Jane have the deep, soul, love connection that they were shown to trust in to the very end.

Even though many fans think Gwen is Peter's true love, Mary Jane comes out on top.

Mary Jane just got very popular unexpectedly and greatly overshadowed Gwen which made it easier for Conway to kill Gwen off.

I agree with Aunt May needs to be dead.

Peter needs to grow up and accept loss. He reminds me of Anakin Skywalker.

Mary Jane seems to actually be wiser and more mature than Peter.

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ursaber

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@glaucus said:

@ursaber:

You're welcome.

I hate OMD which was the worst B.S. storyline.

It's a damned shame that such travesty undone what was probably the most popular and iconic marriage in comic history. Peter and Mary Jane even got married before Clark Kent/Superman and Lois Lane did. I would say that the two couples are the two most iconic couples in comic history.

The only good thing that OMD did was confirm that Peter and Mary Jane have the deep, soul, love connection that they were shown to trust in to the very end.

Even though many fans think Gwen is Peter's true love, Mary Jane comes out on top.

Mary Jane just got very popular unexpectedly and greatly overshadowed Gwen which made it easier for Conway to kill Gwen off.

Mary Jane is the winner, always.

I agree with Aunt May needs to be dead.

Die you old hag. She literally has no purpose anymore.

Peter needs to grow up and accept loss. He reminds me of Anakin Skywalker.

Oh man, now that you bring it up you're right. Especially the Peter of today.

Mary Jane seems to actually be wiser and more mature than Peter.

Yes. Are you reading Renew Your Vows by any chance?

Yes they did marry several years before Clark and Lois did. Both these marriages were their respective company's best. Their top couples.

Even if OMD made that super deep connection (which they always had), its still a travesty and regardless of that it won't be touched upon again thanks to Quesada, Slott and the current administration who don't care for reuniting them. They just wanna tell their crap stories with their bastardization of Spider Man.

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Glaucus

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I believe that they will get back together in the future, but it won't be soon.

I read Renew Your Vows. I love it, and I hope to remains successful.

I am reading the old comic books too, and they are definitely making me miss the couple even more.

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ItsaWorld

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@glaucus said:

I believe that they will get back together in the future, but it won't be soon.

I read Renew Your Vows. I love it, and I hope to remains successful.

I am reading the old comic books too, and they are definitely making me miss the couple even more.

As much as OMD sucks, it does pull off an ending that states that Peter and MJ will return together. As they said, their love is stronger.

As I said, the Marriage has opportunity to return, but its not a question of Will its really WHEN. and it depends on who runs what.

RYV is fantastic, and I feel alot of it is in part of it being written by a long time vetran Spidey writer. Gerry has been writing for Spider-Man for waaaaay long in the game.

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Glaucus

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Gerry is the one that killed off Gwen.

He always believed that Mary Jane was the one for Peter.

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BlindingLights

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It has been implied that he does, like in House of M when he ended up with Gwen.

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Eto

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Lol, at people saying Gwen was his FIRST love.

Anyways, MJ for the win!

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ursaber

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It has been implied that he does, like in House of M when he ended up with Gwen.

And yet in numerous other AU's and in continuity comics we see MJ trumping Gwen at every corner. One brief AU appearance in House of M vs countless other AU's and in continuity stories where MJ is the undisputed love interest of Spider Man. MJ has already won.

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ItsaWorld

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#132  Edited By ItsaWorld

@ursaber said:
@blindinglights said:

It has been implied that he does, like in House of M when he ended up with Gwen.

And yet in numerous other AU's and in continuity comics we see MJ trumping Gwen at every corner. One brief AU appearance in House of M vs countless other AU's and in continuity stories where MJ is the undisputed love interest of Spider Man. MJ has already won.

I dunno if its a good idea to tarnish the thread with our MJ fandom. I mean they went here to state why they felt gwen was the best...

...then again it could be seen as a debate so lemme say something...

House of M was a dream world. If you look into any time Peter ends up with Gwen...they are always dreamworlds. None of them are a reality. House of M was made by the Scarlet witch who knew peter and hung out with him during the time he mourned the death of Gwen. She knew about this and thus granted him what she thought would be ideal for him, a world where his greatest mistakes never occured and his worries never existed. Also in other versions of house of M, he apparently couldnt stop thinking of MJ...just saying.

And afterwords, he begs Strange to take away his memories of that world, but not specifically because of Gwen. It's because he has to remember a life where he had a son and now ceases to be. We recall how messed up he became after the death of his daughter and how he was desperate to find her when he was hinted she lived. A child is what he so heavily desires and wants. To the extent, this is why there was never a real true crossover with Spidey and Mayday, as it would cause Peter utter regret.

The reason it was so hard for him after House of M was because of everything that was there. Gwen did not die, his uncle was alive, his family had no money woes, Cpt Stacy did not perish because of him (till later), his aunt never suffered illness, and above all, his villains were happy too. All the villains he used to have were having good lives as well, a world where he never messed up was granted to him...so when its taken away, seems kinda sucky now doesnt it. makes you think about what could of been if you didnt slip up.

House of M was made by Scalet Witch to be the pinnacle of what she thought Avengers would desire.

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SuperDragonfly9

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#133  Edited By SuperDragonfly9

Yes Gwen was his first lover officially he also met Gwen first before Mary Jane.

In college Peter was a player. He had Gwen and Mary Jane having the hots for him while Flash and Harry were jealous.

One would say Gwen was the better choice because for one, she loved science just like he did. Secondly, she never asked for a explanation when Peter would leave to change into Spider-Man.

But she had to be sacrificed to end the love triangle with Peter and MJ. And I guess the fans favored MJ more. He could also have loved her more since it was his fault that she died. If Goblin wouldn't of known of Spiderman identity he wouldn't of kidnapped his girlfriend at that time. So it haunts him. Just like letting Uncle Ben's Killer get away when he couldn't prevented it.

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ursaber

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@itsaworld:

House of M and all dream worlds or what if's are alternate realities. House of M was literally a reality warp.

I don't think Scarlet Witch and Spider Man had such a friendship (why do you say that, know something I don't cause I don't recall Wanda giving Peter any emotional support). Her reality altering Chaos Magic can handle all the details for her. She created for herself her ideal world and those who got sucked in also went into their ideal dream realms, however because its Chaos Magic its also a warped contradiction. Those dream worlds are shaped to be what they want them to be, not to show them how things would have been if they had made different choices. Even if Gwen still lived I believe wholeheartedly that they would've broken up.

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ItsaWorld

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#135  Edited By ItsaWorld

@ursaber said:

@itsaworld:

House of M and all dream worlds or what if's are alternate realities. House of M was literally a reality warp.

I don't think Scarlet Witch and Spider Man had such a friendship (why do you say that, know something I don't cause I don't recall Wanda giving Peter any emotional support). Her reality altering Chaos Magic can handle all the details for her. She created for herself her ideal world and those who got sucked in also went into their ideal dream realms, however because its Chaos Magic its also a warped contradiction. Those dream worlds are shaped to be what they want them to be, not to show them how things would have been if they had made different choices. Even if Gwen still lived I believe wholeheartedly that they would've broken up.

There were a few crossovers of the two during the 70s and 80s. During one, Scarlet Witch's powers were going outta controll and Spider-Man attempted to calm her trying to remind her that they were friends, but he was caught into the crossfire and was sucked into some sorta mind trip thing magic psychic.......her powers are wierd.

Anywhooo....when i talk bout House of M spidey with some people, many say it doesnt count. One girl even has stated it was made during the time the heads decided to end the marriage and thus made it about Gwen n stuff so people would accept the marriage ending......it didnt work.

From what I saw, House of M was a world made up by Scarlet Witch who had a hand in everyone's life she found interest in...especially when you learn she put in effort to revive Hawkeye into this world as some sorta apology for killing him in the other. She was the god of that world and made it as she saw fit. Especially when you know her children were rewritten to be her children again instead of being with their own families which I do know Wiccan loved his parents very much. Besides, would several of the X-Men wanna be heavy forceful soldiers to a Mutant regime that attacked humans constantly? No. This is not their dreamworld, but they were meant to believe it was.

And yes, Gwen and Peter would of probably broke up. Its all in the details when you read the comics. Gwen hated spiderman and never changed that stance. It is even known that he even told her and others at a party that he was spiderman and she attacked him, later on everyone pretty much assumed Peter was dellusional because he was suffering from a high fever and Gwen calmed down.

Gwen hates spiderman and will not accept that part of peter. She would literally make peter decide her or spidey....in fact they would never go there. She is Flay from Gundam seed.

Who is flay and WTF is gundam seed? One of the most awful animes i watched. Flay is the main character KIra's other love interest who is mean, racist and cheats on guys through the series...but kira still loves her....wat? So anyway, Flay's father is revealed to be some sorta governor who is caught in a crossfire that the earth army, our main heroes are part of, have to try and protect. Kira was unable to assist in protecting him cause he was being attacked AND ITS WAR! and of course teh enemie is too strong and Flay's father dies during the attack. Flay then completley blames Kira for the death of her father and does not forgive him. She states in her mind she wants him to constantly fight and fight and feel the pain and anguish of war as punishment for not saving her dad. It wasnt his fault and she completely blames him causing Kira to go into hysterics and depression. To make matters worse, she runs off for several months and winds up following the weird guy in the mask....cause she thinks its her brother?.....anyway she goes missing and when comes back, she is attacked and Kira tries to save her but fails to do so. He believes he has protected her from a blast, only to realize a second later that the villain succeeded and sees her get killed right in front of his eyes.

....That kinda sounds like Gwen Stacy doesn't it!!!

Gerry Conway states that he and the others would of probably just made them break up if they didn't go for the death route, but they did want to do something iconic and were going to kill someone in an issue. They chose Gwen who was peter's love interest, hard to write for and make interesting. People question if this was stuck in fridge syndrome or just something that actually did benefit the character.

If she did survive or never had this kinda conflict, I believe she would have become a villain and perhaps a very interesting one.

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#136  Edited By ursaber

@itsaworld:

Flay from Gundam Seed. Good God did I feel massively relieved when she died. I hated her AND Kira. The only cool thing about Kira was that he piloted the Freedom. Athrun was the cool guy and by far the most interesting. But Athrun piloted the lame ass Justice.

BTW I have to congratulate your wit because Peter and Gwen are EXACTLY the perfect comparison partners for Peter and Gwen. Nice burn my friend.

I've watched nearly all the Gundam series. In fact I'm watching some Universal Century OVA's. The recent Thunderbolt which is awesome and stylistic, Stardust Memory, beautiful visuals and War in the Pocket. Love Gundam very much. Was thoroughly crushed by Lockon's death in Gundam 00 (favorite Gundam series and the best next to the original), and by Lafter and Tekkadan's deaths in the recent Iron Blooded Orphans.

And yeah agree pretty much with the Spider Man, Mary Jane, Gwen Stacy, House of M mentions. :)

BTW I think there was a What If about Gwen living and Peter revealing his identity and she out of character accepted him instantly. But then Jameson found out and made hard life for Peter when he revealed his secret identity.

BTW (again for the third time :)) if we end up talking about Gundam we should take it to the Spider Man Fans, Casual Discussion thread :)

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Thegamemanuel

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#137  Edited By Thegamemanuel

If were talking about this current Peter all the love he had for MJ at the moment of their wedding(and after) was erased. He still considers MJ as a great friend though.

And before anyone brings up the past remember that their marriage didn't last (Speaking in canon...of course)

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ItsaWorld

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@ursaber said:

@itsaworld:

And yeah agree pretty much with the Spider Man, Mary Jane, Gwen Stacy, House of M mentions. :)

BTW I think there was a What If about Gwen living and Peter revealing his identity and she out of character accepted him instantly. But then Jameson found out and made hard life for Peter when he revealed his secret identity.

Yes, there was an AU where Gwen lived from the bridge incident but when they tried to get married, Jameson exposed Peter as spidey and he had to go into hiding.

Though this is an AU so who knows what would happen in the mainverse. One could contest this would of happened if it went that way, but we could also point out 500 other AUs where that stuff happened later in the 616 and didn't go as planned.

And look, the 2000s were not kind to either romance of Peter's...but if you try and counter with OMD or House of M, I will pull out the story where Gwen had Goblin Children. As I said, it was desecrating both characters, probably because the higher ups not only wanted MJ gone, they really wanted Peter to date all new love interests......but when push came to shove, they realized they had no idea what they wanted to create as a romance. So they tarnished Gwen, MJ and Felicia for the sake of.....well nothing. They did it for no good reason and made people more frustrated.

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Glaucus

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I don't get the House of M being used to support Gwen.

Somebody said that it had something to do with deepest wishes

I have checked out the comic series House of M

Peter Parker is married to Gwen and has children with her.

He is also an actor, and he plays Spider-Man in a movie with Mary Jane who plays his wife. They are being interviewed, and there is a scene where they are holding hands. Gwen and her father notices that closeness when the hand holding is shown on a monitor. I read somebody mentioned about there was hint of Peter and Mary Jane having an affair, and I guess that was the scene.

Peter Parker becomes the Green Goblin.

I also noticed that there is What If? House of M

Those things aren't canon

Peter Parker is married to Mary Jane

Gwen Stacy comes back with his son, Richard.

Peter Parker becomes the Green Goblin in that one, and he tries to kill his wife, Mary Jane with the glider. He changes his mind and saves her, but the glider kills him by impaling him. The story ends with son, Richard typing what happened to his father on computer, and Gwen is his mother.

I don't get the argument about using House of M stuff to support Peter loving Gwen more than Mary Jane.

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Glaucus

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Peter and MJ's marriage was erased by OMD

Their love wasn't erased by OMD.

How did you get to that conclusion?

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ZariusII

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#141  Edited By ZariusII

@glaucus said:

Peter and MJ's marriage was erased by OMD

Their love wasn't erased by OMD.

How did you get to that conclusion?

Mephisto said himself in OMD that a small portion of their souls would remember their love and it would still exist, but that it would never be able to manifest fully again, something would always get in the way, and that their souls would be screaming out for all eternity.

Thieu marriage was erased, yes, but their personalities were altered by the deal too

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Glaucus

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I want to show few more examples of how deep and strong Peter and Mary Jane's love had been.

The following are from The Amazing Spider-Man Vol. 2 #53

They are about Peter and Mary Jane making love for the first time since their separation after Peter rescued her from a mutant that held Mary Jane prisoner for months after making people think that she was dead when she blew up a plane that she was supposed to on.

Mary Jane speaking to Peter:

"I came back for you, Peter. I love you. For everything you are, for everything you think you're not. Distracted or not, tired or not, you're my lover. My husband. And the dearest thing in the world to me. "

"Let me prove it."

No Caption Provided

Peter's thinking about Mary Jane while she is sleeping after making love:

I can bench press a car.

I can climb up the side of a wall. Fight twenty guys to a standstill. Swing across chasms thirty stories deep. Feel a bullet coming my way and move fast enough to get clear.

But something in her makes me gentle. Makes me shy. Makes me strong. Makes me happy to be alive.

And maybe that's it. Maybe that's what it really comes down to.

She makes me. Makes me whole.

She completes me.

So here's the thing, God...I know I complain a lot, and I know that you and me, we've got issues, but right now, just for tonight...

Thank you for her.

Thank you.

No Caption Provided

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amazingfantasy

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#143  Edited By amazingfantasy

(Why do these threads get randomly bumped every here and there LOL)

I just speed read the thread, but about House of M, speaking as someone who read it just last week, it's not simply another AU but specifically the 616 reality altered and gave everyone happiness and what they wanted. And it wasn't what Scarlet Witch 'thought' they'd like, it was what they genuinely desired... She used Xavier's powers to know what they wanted even if it was deep down and sometimes they themselves didn't know it (Wolverine for example where he says he ended up as some sort of Nick Fury and wasn't even aware he wanted that, that line/scene was there to reinforce this point). Bendis made all of this quite clear in his writing. It’s not about his guilt or something either otherwise Gwen would just stay alive and he’d still end up with MJ regardless, or something of that effect… It is genuinely about his happiness. In that reality Ben, Cap. Stacy and etc were alive and close to Peter as a family. Peter was successful, famous and a scientist, Jameson got what he deserved, Etc. It's a pretty happy world for Pete. Or rather, it’s a very Peter Parker world, it captures well his essence and more or less what his life would be like in a perfect world. It has family, Peter using his passion of science not only that but sharing it with the one he loves (Gwen worked Peter in science stuff), having a heart to heart with Uncle Ben and finding his way again, having a happy family... Please, as Peter fans, do not downplay and ‘take this away’ this because it isn’t the ‘ship’ some of you would like it to be. You’d be missing the point if you do, It’s a nice break and world for good ol’ Spidey, a more sweet world after all the stuff he’s been through, and honestly it goes beyond Gwen. Which just shows how much sense it makes on how affected Peter was by it. He was messed up to the point of saying he’d kill Scarlet Witch.

Anyways, personal opinion aside this shouldn't get dismissed regardless and should certainly be taken into consideration. I don't think it means that Peter loves Gwen more. For more, refer to my next post...

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amazingfantasy

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#144  Edited By amazingfantasy

As for the topic, here are my 2cents... I don't think there's a clear answer and don't think it ever will. What I do think is that some Peter/MJ fans downplay Gwen too much, and it's happening here again. I don't know and never got exactly why since MJ has lots of spotlights and Gwen never took any from her, not even after her recent boost (Quite the opposite actually with the existence of RYV), but maybe it's because they feel 'threatened' since Gwen's the only one who can actually give MJ a fight? We know that no other love interest can stand up to MJ, not even Felicia. But Gwen always could and even more with her recent considerable popularity boost... It's more about the possibility rather than what's actually happening. Tbh, I'm team Peter/MJ all the way and I don't care for Peter/Gwen especially on 616 but I'd read a story about them if it's written well, AU or not, like Spider-Man: Blue. Heck as long as they don't throw MJ under the bus they could create an RYVish universe with Gwen for all I care lol. But anyways, enough of why I think this happens, here's a more detailed and thoughtful perspective, addressing as much as I can, from someone who does prefer MJ to Gwen both as a character and as Peter's girl:

**Mostly, I'll address Gwen's side but also a bit of MJ's. This is because of this last page is full of MJ's defence since the forum isn't nearly as popular as it used to be, so it doesn't hurt to have a more recent POV on this. I'll also address arguments that are used in these discussions even if they weren't shown/said here on this thread.**

01- I genuinely believe that Peter loved both of them, equally or not. Had Gwen stayed alive he'd never go for MJ, not because he didn't/wouldn't love her but he loves and respects Gwen enough so MJ wouldn't get into his mind in the first place. The same would happen if hypothetically he was with MJ first, or Gwen somehow came back to life... In fact I think Peter told this to the Gwen's clone in the second clone saga. It was not about him loving MJ more but because he was already with her. This is Peter Parker people, he wouldn't dump the girl he loves for another, even if he also loved and could easily have a future with said other girl (This also explains House of M, it's not about him loving Gwen more). He'd respect and stay faithful to the one he's with because that's the kind of guy he is. I feel like this is a huge point and not said enough.
Edit: Going a bit deeper, even if he loves either Gwen or MJ more... He'd still love the other enough to not end his relationship. Because regardless of who you prefer I think we can all agree that Parker loves them both to the point of marriage and spending life together, even if he indeed loves one of them more. So let's say that his love for MJ is a 10 and for Gwen is 9.5, but he got with Gwen first, as it usually is. That 9.5 is still more than strong enough for Peter to be with her, for the rest of their lives (probably not even aware that he'd love MJ more because he loves Gwen enough to not even consider it. All this in my imaginary scenario, of course). Or he simply loves them equally so whoever comes first simply 'wins', just logic. So, Ironic as it sounds, I don't think this argument that he stayed with either of 'em in whatever reality thus he likes one of them more really works (Nor do I think we have a definite way of knowing tbh).

02- And yes, I'm aware that there's one scan on Peter saying he loves MJ more. But to begin with, I think that "Love more" is a rather silly thing to say when talking about this stuff, but okay, I'll go with that regardless. To answer to this, there are also scans that put the benefit of the doubt, even by the JMS who we all know loves the couple. There's also a scan of Peter saying nothing he'll have with anyone else will ever be good as it was with Gwen. And of course House of M, which is pretty much valid addressed in my previous post, so at the very least we got an inconsistency here.
So I'll tell you what's important here: Consistency. It's very very important. Peter said that he loves MJ more once. That is not consistent with the overall treatment of the two relationships, what usually happens is that there is no clear answer. The same way the stories that implied he liked Gwen more do not settle this. Just because something happens once, in comics from all places, does not make it true. Battle forum guys can easily confirm that lol :p And that using something that happened once or twice argument can easily backfire against Peter/MJ fans, so I'd be careful with that.

03- A very important point now, what people also forget is that in the majority if not all of alternate realities that Peter ends up with MJ, The Night Gwen Stacy Died happened. That is very essential. It's not like Gwen was alive and well to compete with MJ, but that's not even the point, never was. The point is that Gwen's death is basically what triggers the serious relationship between Peter and MJ to begin with. In House of M they aren't even close. Neither in Spider-Gwen's reality. She didn't even appear in Spidey I think. Again, the trope is usually that Even if he does love MJ more, they usually only get close if Gwen dies. And please don't address this with an AU that breaks the rule, I'm not talking about the exception but the rule. Again, consistency is important.

For example, Ult. Spider-Man is an exception, but it's also an exception for lots of things, so overall it doesn't hurt/supports the rule. MJ is undoubtedly endgame there, and 'beat' Gwen even tho she was alive, but the funny thing is that Gwen doesn't even get second place I believe, Kitty/Shadowcat is the one who does (Who is one of Bendis' pets, surprise surprise lol). She was much more invested, from the start, in Peter than Ult. Gwen ever was, still loved him and wanted to marry him two years after his death...While by then Gwen had very clearly moved on, less affected and healthy. So yeah. And may I also remind that both of them are rather different from their 616 counterparts, thus making it even more distinct and supporting the rule. Peter and MJ are childhood friends for example, so they've known each other whole lives which led to MJ liking him from the start, something that definitely played a considerable part there. Anyways if I was gonna do this and pick important differences from the Ultiverse the examples would be endless, so again, the exception not the rule. It also kinda supports my point of him being with one of them first, in this case MJ.

3.5- A bit random but Peter apparently also plays with thoughts of Gwen being alive, not simply being alive but them doing things as a couple, and this is while he was married to MJ. Didn't really seem to fit in any of the others points, this one seems to closest, so just throwing it out there. lol

04- Speaking of AUs, a constant trope is that a reality in which Gwen lived Peter ended up with her. Peter himself seems to be aware of this as when he's in a new reality he wonders whether that version of him will end up with Gwen or MJ (And that was when he was with Carlie! LOL). On pure quantity of realities they're together, I believe MJ wins... And even two on-goings, including the biggest female marvel superhero run, had them together. But what those two, and most if not all these other realities, had... Is Gwen dead, which brings back 03 once again.

05- I don't think I need to touch things like Sins Past, most if not all are reasonable enough to know that's BS. But just gonna say that if anyone uses that to downplay Gwen it's very easy to do the same to MJ and her fans should know that very well. Just gonna say that. lol And even in Sins Past Peter's love for Gwen is showed very strongly, and there was no sign of it being diminished one bit even after he found out about Gwen and Norman (Eww... LOL). JMS even threw a line there saying he possibly loved Gwen more.

Interestingly enough the story was actually very strong on Peter/Gwen ironically as it sounds, and in the story the thing was treated more as another of Osborn's evil acts rather than put flaws in Gwen (And there's of course the fact that kids were supposed to be Peter's which might explain it, but y'know, editorial... lol). But regardless, using bad storylines and inconsistent moments is not cool people!

06- As far as characters goes, Peter/Gwen and Gwen herself are usually referred to as boring, but that... Is irrelevant. Her being boring or not (which is subjective, but even if she is, the point stands) wouldn't make her any less the love of Peter's life (again, assuming she is). But aside from that, Gwen never got the chance to develop like MJ did. A lot of the arguments for MJ's comes in the following years as she grew as a character (including some retcons here and there). Gwen never had any of those, and MJ didn't have the smashing majority of the arguments used as for why she's the best back when Gwen died. It's a bit unfair to compare. Which is why Gwen's usually remembered so fondly and as 'perfect' girl sometimes, it's basically the only way to 'fight back' and establish her position, not only "against" MJ but overall. Also, Stan vouched for her! LOL

07- Gwen hated Spider-Man... But that's not relevant. It's clear that Gwen, as one who can give MJ a run for her money, would not be 'taken out' by something like that. On the AU in which he rescued Gwen, Not only Gwen immediately forgave Peter but she also agreed to marry him right there (On the first try! LOL). And of course in the recent CC it was obviously portrayed that Gwen would've forgiven Peter and their relationship would go on. And of course House of M in which Peter's desires are made real. Possibly more. I don't think this really needed to be addressed tho, but some like to nitpick on that, so there's that. MJ, AU Gwens and even Carlie Cooper accepted Peter as Spidey, it'd be silly to think that for some reason 616 Gwen wouldn't do so.

Edit: 7.5- On that note, and I guess it's what I'm trying to say with those last two which I'm not sure was clear, it's that there's very little to nothing that shows that Peter/Gwen relationship wouldn't have worked but I think we all know that. They'd marry, have kids and all that stuff. 06 and 07 are kinda my point, with Gwen being portrayed as great/'perfect', other sources showing she'd accept Spider-Man, still love Peter and all that. It usually ends because tragedy hits, not because their relationship had anything wrong. Peter has said more than once times how he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her, marry, have kids and etc, you know how it goes. They'd simply work, what I'm trying to say. I think we all agree on that even those who prefer MJ, but again I'm just addressing as much as I can and I have seen nitpicking on that, saying that their relationship would fail even if she was alive or something along those lines. When it's quite the opposite thus this point, and it's simply worth pointing out I guess.

08- Out of universe, while TASM definitely gave Gwen a considerable boost and lots of fans, I think there's no way to know but I still think MJ comes out on top, at least as being known as Spidey's girl. But, the overall perception is not the point here, which is debating who's the true love. Just because the majority of the public arguably thinks so, doesn't mean they're correct... Or incorrect.

09- Lastly, There a few universes where MJ triumphs and others where MJ doesn't. Others when Peter isn't even close with either of them or just one, Spider-Gwen's as an example. He's deeply connected with Gwen but like didn't even interact with MJ. I've already mentioned here but there also realities where he ends up with Gwen. And it also connects to the overall point/03, in which that Gwen is dead so she's not there to 'compete' and that her death is what causes Peter/MJ to get close in the first place.

10- And of course, there's the fact that this is a rivalry. Like a lot of others CB rivalries, there is no clear answer here. Just like there still isn't an 'official' answer about Superman vs Batman, Hulk vs Thor, etc. There will keep being evidence to the both sides, writers who favor one side to another, etc precisely to generate debates. But, overall, there will never be a clear answer. No matter how fans push, even the most obsessive ones, if you look at rationally there will never be a clear answer. Same applies here. But regardless, just to finish, Gwen is more than a match for MJ, both in and out of universe, and even if she truly isn't an equal to MJ as far as Peter's love goes, she undoubtedly gets the silver medal. Naturally, same would apply to MJ if roles were reversed.

Okay, I think that's it. Forgive any mistakes or anything that seems out of place, my mistake while editing if it happened lol. I think I addressed most of what I wanted but probably missed a few stuff, but eh. I tend to stay out of this type of discussion... Ship wars scare me LOL But, felt like it had to be said. I tried to be as polite and rational as I could here, so if you're going to answer this I'd appreciate if you did the same, kind internet person. lol Lastly, here are some scans that shows/supports a few of my points and simply food for thought:

For those interested, here's a few stories about and/or that "support" Peter/Gwen, some shown in the scans above: Spider-Man: Blue, House of M, House of M: Spider-Man, What If Spider-Man had rescued Gwen Stacy, ASM v4 #23, and, ironic as it sounds, Sins Past kinda fits too... (Read point 05 in case of doubt lol)

So, to conclude, my overall point is: Personally, I believe he liked them both equally, and even if he didn't, I don't think it can be proved for either side, don't think it ever will, and I don't really care. There's genuinely space for both of them. As long as one the sides isn't unfairly treated and I get my share, I'm happy and 100% cool with it.

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ursaber

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@amazingfantasy:

Disagree with you on Gwen and Peter working out had they stayed alive. I believe wholeheartedly that even if Gwen survived she and Peter would've eventually broken up. That's what I believe.

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amazingfantasy

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#146  Edited By amazingfantasy
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ursaber

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#147  Edited By ursaber

@amazingfantasy said:

@ursaber: Why do you believe that?

Its not an in depth analytical belief. Rather I simply believe that with the way Peter and Gwen's relationship was going, Gwen fervently hating Spider Man and Peter not telling her the truth about her father's death and that he's Spider Man that it would lead to a really messy relationship. I believe that's what would have happened.

Plus Gwen wasn't really that good of a character and the only reason she is so infamously resilient is because of the only noteworthy thing she ever did. DIE. If Gwen had lived and continued to be portrayed in the direction she was in, eventually she would've been driven into irrelevancy.

And most importantly, I like MJ more.

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Glaucus

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#148  Edited By Glaucus

Gwen was no way close to being popular as Mary Jane before she got killed off in the comics.

It didn't matter how interesting she was made to the fans, Mary Jane was liked better. The fans wanted Mary Jane to be the girlfriend instead of Gwen which was Stan Lee's original choice for Peter's future wife.

Stan Lee even mentioned this, and he created both characters.

He made the development of their characters out to be something that was out of their hands even though they were writing and drawing them.

It was like fate led Mary Jane to be Peter's ultimate love interest.

I do think that killing off Gwen without his knowledge was messed up.

Gwen only got popular from being dead, the Amazing Spider-Man movies, and the alternative universe Gwen comics.

House of M is reality where Peter becomes the Green Goblin.

I really don't get the big deal about House of M.

I want to reiterate that Sins Past is screwed up story line that was unnecessary and crappy to make Gwen look bad.

One Moment In Time was an editorial agenda-driven story line to make Mary Jane look weak.

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amazingfantasy

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@ursaber: Err, if that's all, Gwen already forgave/accepted Peter in multiple realities and in CC it confirms that 616 Gwen would too. .-. I addressed this up there.
You're free to believe what you want and that's 100% cool, but in a debate that may not hold up especially due to the great evidence against it. And my view is that Peter and Gwen deeply loved each other, I believe it's far more logical and there's tons of evidence to support it that she'd simply forgive him, while the opposite does not have as much if any. Also one can easily play the "I believe" game with MJ too by nitpicking evidence which I suppose you would not appreciate.

Or not, maybe she wouldn't. You don't know that nor does anyone. They could've also changed her portrayal if that was the problem. But, It's irrelevant regardless so I'm not sure why to bring it up. And also addressed this up there lol

I know, me too. LOL

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ursaber

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#150  Edited By ursaber

@ursaber: Err, if that's all, Gwen already forgave/accepted Peter in multiple realities and in CC it confirms that 616 Gwen would too. .-. I addressed this up there.

You're free to believe what you want and that's 100% cool, but in a debate that may not hold up especially due to the great evidence against it. And my view is that Peter and Gwen deeply loved each other, I believe it's far more logical and there's tons of evidence to support it that she'd simply forgive him, while the opposite does not have as much if any. Also one can easily play the "I believe" game with MJ too by nitpicking evidence which I suppose you would not appreciate.

Or not, maybe she wouldn't. You don't know that nor does anyone. They could've also changed her portrayal if that was the problem. But, It's irrelevant regardless so I'm not sure why to bring it up. And also addressed this up there lol

I know, me too. LOL

Yes but realities are infinite. CC was really way off even if it is canon and Gwen Clone lived quite awhile before she confronted Peter again and had accepted everything.

Peter and Gwen did love each other and so did Mary Jane and Peter yet Marvel did OMD and in OMIT, even though they were not married they still created their crap story of how they broke up anyway despite loving each other and having the "same" relationship as when they were married but without the rings.

From a narrative standpoint even if Gwen had lived and the writers wrote her to forgive Peter it would lead down a not so interesting or risky path. Peter's life would've been more traditionally stable rather than the way he managed to tear through comic book traditions. Spidey is the trailblazer and challenges the conventions of comics.

Whatever the case its irrelevant. Gwen is dead and her death is a landmark in Spider Man history and arguably the most important development next to Uncle Ben's death. Its necessary for her to be dead. Peter loves her but at the same time she's mostly in love with her memory and his guilt over her and his failure rather than the love he feels for MJ. But that being said Gwen was dead and MJ was alive so there's worlds of difference there.

I'm not trying to pick a fight debate discussion. Just straightforwardly expressed what I believe. Debates don't matter because I already decided MJ was the winner. I'm biased.