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#1 Edited by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

What is selling ?

A simple action/writing tool at heart. Selling is basically just working well with other peoples interactions. It encompasses responses to psychical attacks mainly but it also covers verbal responses as well to some degree. When somebody interacts with you they effectively pitch an attack/ verbal statement, your duty as a fellow writer and member of the section is to take that pitch on board and work with it. Selling is making your work incorporate the work of others well.

A good seller shows equal respect and time to dealing with opponents attacks as they do writing out their rebuttal.

The purpose of selling is two fold

1) To enhance the characters involvement in the story by having some jeopardy, alterations via damage to the body or mind as a result of the conflict

2) To showcase writing skill by carefully detailing your opponents attack and its effects from your characters point of view.

Why should i sell?

You want to write with others?

You want to battle?

Then you HAVE to sell.

Even a superman level character fighting a street leveler has to sell. If you don't respond to an opponent properly or trivialize their work by shrugging it off, people wont work with you for very long. Selling certain things can be tough some easy but you must sell them none the less. For the sake of your fellow writers and your own reputation as writer i implore you to sell as much as you can as to the best of your ability. You maybe a master of prose, a grammar Jedi or some sort of vocabulary deity but the different between a good and a great writer around here is their ability to sell.

Guidelines/Rules you should follow

1) Its not optional. If an opponent hits you with three attacks in a post you gotta sell each of them in some way.

2) Just because an attack shouldn't hurt you doesn't mean it cant. Mistimed counters, environmental factors surprise etc.

3) Selling covers more than just physical damage,E.G a great martial artists being humbled/surprised by a hit by could respond emotionally to said strike. Doubt confusion admiration etc.

Examples

A Simple/Good sell

The Pitch- Fighter A pivots on their standing foot swiftly and precisely aiming a snapped shin kick at opponent B's body.

The Sell- Fighter A'S kick shot unexpectedly at B's chest leaving little time to respond. B tensed the muscles within their abdomen and trying to turn away, rolling with the impact doing their best to absorb the force behind the blow. The sheer power causing B to loss their firm footing as the strike flowed through him.Recovering composure as the string of the strike spreed across the gut a painful lesson had been learned, avoid the kicks.

Why was it good? the sell followed the pitch's flow. The response used the highlighted words from the pitch and worked them into the reply. The kick was meant to be fast and accurate so it was sold as so. Even if your faster/stronger or have various other abilities that over shadow your opponents you should ALWAYS make the attack look good at the very least.

Bad/no sell

The pitch- Fighter B draws his pistol and fires 3 shots at Fighter A his targets the heart lungs and stomach

The sell- Fighter A Simply stood and laughed at the bullets striking him. For he had a healing factor and this was but a simple delay.

Why was it bad, no selling of damage, Makes opponent seem trivial( you should try to make your opponent look good) no mention of pain.(look at wolverine unless you have no pain receptors everything should still hurt) said it a few times already selling is more than just the physical damage, what did you character think/feel in response to attack.

Power level/Skill level gap selling

Here's a way to sell something from a much weaker character. Say Prime Lady Liberty was fighting Shadowknight and he tried shooting her. Realistically, that bullet would never hit, and if it did, it wouldn't affect her. But lets continue. LL dodges the bullet but has her character comment on how inhumanly good SK's marksmanship skill is, and praise him for it, even claiming that it almost hit her, and that it was far more like a super-power than an actual skill. That would be some way of selling that attack without making LL look like a jobber ( making yourself look weaker than you actually are). environmental effects could come into play to somehow weaken a powerful character.

Lets say someone creates some type of intergalactic martial arts master such as Gamora who feels that everyone on Earth possesses pathetic H2H skills compared to hers. Lets say this space martial artist is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone on Earth but she gets into a fight with the Last Arashikage. She's picking him apart but selling his attacks because she was caught off guard or surprised by how good he was and that she had underestimated him, causing her to sustain more damage than she should have, allowing for a more even match than it realistically would be. She may also be humbled by the experience, that she was wrong and that an Earthling had surprised her.

Tips

1) The focus of the sell shouldn't be how little damage you can take,

2) The more detail and description you use in your sells the clearer they are for readers and opponent

3) Consider the external and emotional factors to the fight and how they will influence your attack and defense

4) Read your opponents post carefully, the difference between a decent sell and a good sell is in the details

5) Treat your opponents as you would wish to be treated, the better you sell them the better they will sell you.

6) Mix it up, use your imagination unexpected sells done well are some of the best ones.

Please add your own examples of good selling to help educate others. Only attach Good sell please this isnt a name and shame thread. Any submissions of sells should be be summed up with a little critique where possible to help clarify what makes the sells note worthy.

Hope the thread helps

PS. thanks to Andres for the section on selling vastly different levels of powers or skills.

Edward/Cassius

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#2 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio

I feel like this is calling me out.

#3 Posted by Strigidae_23 (4957 posts) - - Show Bio

A+

Should be required reading.

#4 Posted by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@_strigidae_: This is a help thread, its not aimed at anyone. Its simply here to help the community as a whole, no malice call outs or anything of that nature crossed my mind when making it.

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#5 Edited by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio
#6 Posted by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@_strigidae_: Good, good

Plus if i wanted to call you out i would do so less covertly lol

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#7 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio

Just one thing.

Wtf is a Grammar Jedi? Sounds like some BS wannabes to me.

#8 Posted by Mercy_ (91871 posts) - - Show Bio

Fav thread

Moderator
#9 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio
#10 Edited by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@_strigidae_: Like a less offence Grammar Nazi basically more helpful less kill all one race etc. Hellbound?

@mercy_: Thanks hopefully people start posting examples/ critique the etc make it a solid addition to the forum.

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#11 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio

@cassuis_slay_knightfall: Grammar Nazis are not about killing any race! We're about killing bad grammar!

Except for the actual Nazis who also happened to be Grammar Nazis. Or like the ones from that funny College Humor video.

Hellbound.

#12 Edited by Clutch (2938 posts) - - Show Bio

Some people will never be good at selling. You want to know how to sell , go read a Gambler rpg.

#13 Edited by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@clutch: Dont be so defeatist man, people can learn and improve its what turned us from cave dwellers to what we are now. But yeah if you can think of a specific example you wish to link here and break it down please do.

@_strigidae_: Lol i prefer the peace loving warriror Grammar Jedi. Mainly because the term Nazi is kinda tainted., but also because i believe grammar Jedi is my own work. Still dont know what you mean by hellbound, to me that was just a crappy Hellraiser film.

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#14 Posted by Enforcer_ (313 posts) - - Show Bio

@clutch said:

Some people will never be good at selling. You want to know how to sell , go read a Gambler rpg.

I think everybody can learn. Just give it time.

#15 Posted by Clutch (2938 posts) - - Show Bio

@cassuis_slay_knightfall : Nah, I'm just saying some people refuse to seem "weak" or sell because they've built a character who is to "strong"..for some odd reason. I like how you mapped it out in this thread though . Good sh!t.

#16 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio

@clutch: Dont be so defeatist man, people can learn and improve its what turned us from cave dwellers to what we are now.

It's funny you should say that, and use that phrase too, considering the conversation we were just having, and one that happened earlier in the weekend.

#17 Edited by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@_strigidae_: I have no idea what you mean, seriously i don't

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#18 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio
#19 Posted by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@_strigidae_: Oh i thought you meant a conversation with me lol, never seen that article before.

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#20 Posted by Charlemagne (6964 posts) - - Show Bio

Beast Mode mentoring son.

Really, you can sell any and everything. Doesnt have to just be physical attacks. Could be someone's style. Andres can talk about Armani till he's blue in the face but if no one else is picking up and selling this trademark it loses its impact/importance. Facial expressions, knowledge, sex appeal, speech, etc, all these things can be sold.

What I use to like doing (myself) is selling an attack that the originator didnt put alot of detail in. Either they were rushed, inexperienced, or couldnt find the words, so I embellished something simple and gave it some flair.

I do agree somewhat with Clutch though. There will always be DBZers out there so inflated with powers that they couldnt sell you even if they wanted to. Thats why I always add "superhuman escape artist" to my list of powers. Fight or Flight? Against Goku? Flight son, flight.

#21 Posted by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

bout time somebody made this.

#22 Posted by Arquitenens (4883 posts) - - Show Bio

Beast Mode mentoring son.

Really, you can sell any and everything. Doesnt have to just be physical attacks. Could be someone's style. Andres can talk about Armani till he's blue in the face but if no one else is picking up and selling this trademark it loses its impact/importance. Facial expressions, knowledge, sex appeal, speech, etc, all these things can be sold.

What I use to like doing (myself) is selling an attack that the originator didnt put alot of detail in. Either they were rushed, inexperienced, or couldnt find the words, so I embellished something simple and gave it some flair.

I do agree somewhat with Clutch though. There will always be DBZers out there so inflated with powers that they couldnt sell you even if they wanted to. Thats why I always add "superhuman escape artist" to my list of powers. Fight or Flight? Against Goku? Flight son, flight.

I picked up on that.

#23 Posted by Myrmidon_ (5083 posts) - - Show Bio

Beast Mode mentoring son.

Really, you can sell any and everything. Doesnt have to just be physical attacks. Could be someone's style. Andres can talk about Armani till he's blue in the face but if no one else is picking up and selling this trademark it loses its impact/importance. Facial expressions, knowledge, sex appeal, speech, etc, all these things can be sold.

What I use to like doing (myself) is selling an attack that the originator didnt put alot of detail in. Either they were rushed, inexperienced, or couldnt find the words, so I embellished something simple and gave it some flair.

I do agree somewhat with Clutch though. There will always be DBZers out there so inflated with powers that they couldnt sell you even if they wanted to. Thats why I always add "superhuman escape artist" to my list of powers. Fight or Flight? Against Goku? Flight son, flight.

That's actually kinda cool. Makes sense.

#24 Edited by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@cara_hunter: Was gonna make it months ago under a comedy alt account but wording it took to long so scrapped it and just did it with Cass.

@the_last_arashikage: Thanks man , just need people to drop examples in here now make it a library of excellent sells showcase the ability on the forums.More examples will help out all the better.

As for no sellers they should be shunned till they learn the game

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#25 Edited by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

@cassuis_slay_knightfall: how do you sell with tk,reality warping and telepathy btw?

oh and also not god mod with phasing?

#26 Posted by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@cara_hunter: Well these like most attacks are setting/ post specific really. You respond in the way you see best fits the opponents writing.

Say Somebody lifts something and hurls it at you with TK. You can sell surprise/confusion to how they are doing it, are they concentrating/looking like they are focusing on the object? (what are they looking at?) there is also the easy sell of the impact of the force like any basic attack even if it just hits the floor or something else around you. If its just somebody hitting you with a blast of TK are they making a gesture?, movement of air defiantly play on it being unseen that's a given. You can work in numerous ways without any basic info from your opponent the more they say the more you have to work with and use as a guideline.

Reality warping is kind of simple but also kind of difficult. You can sell emotion pain etc depending on the change is it instantaneous? can you feel the change before it takes hold? this i would say is very heavily based on whats written and how you can right in canon the perception and response to such an action.

Telepathy can be an itch a clouded mind a sudden feeling of something not being quite right to full blown brain is on fire on your knees head in your hands depending on whats being done. As with all attacks its about describing the sensation of the attack, even another telepath would feel something so its key to play on that.

Phasing attacks you mean? that's simple just say you attempt to do something not instantly do it. Just because you can phase through a human doesn't mean you get it 100% of the time. What factors both internal and external can come into play ? , they could move and you could miss and phase into something else. Whats to say attack wise you couldn't phase into something and attempt to drag a target into it trapping inside like a barrel or a cell. Creative thinking but giving your opponent a chance is the basics to anything attack wise.

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#27 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, I imagine phasing into someone or something really hurts, even for the person doing it. Like Shiho's quantum tunneling "merge" with Stark's armor. Probably gonna cause some mutual pain, and maybe kill you if you're not careful and don't have the means to handle it.

#28 Posted by Cara_Hunter (3687 posts) - - Show Bio

@cassuis_slay_knightfall: so what like if

somebody wants to TK choke you vader style and they typed "attempted to tk choke vader style" do I just get myself choked out lol? cause my character really has no defense against that

oh and what if the person tries to instant (he spells attempt) transmutate you into a watermelon?

(thx for explaining the phasing part!)

#29 Posted by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@cara_hunter: You could sell the grab and attempt to break their concentration before you pass out. You could move and they would have to zone in again "noting you had an odd sensation or something like that", You never truly have no defense if you can use the environment around you. Where there is a will to escape there is a way just need to get creative.

Watermelon - A difficult one for sure, one of the main reasons reality warping isnt to popular battle wise is its hard to work with without massively altering your own character. In this case i would probably have to work a sell of some sort of pain an confusion as you try to get away. If your up against a reality warper and have no abilities to counter your better of just striking from a surprise location or running away anyways. How many times you seen anyone run away around here ? as Gambler said a couple posts up fight or flight if you cant fight them on any level get out there.

@_strigidae_: Very good point

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#30 Edited by Mercy_ (91871 posts) - - Show Bio

@clutch said:

Some people will never be good at selling. You want to know how to sell , go read a Gambler rpg.

Best advice you could give.

Moderator
#31 Edited by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@mercy_: Your an expert in all things Gambler, post some examples and break um down with your keen eye to explain the quality. You know you want to.

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#32 Posted by Mercy_ (91871 posts) - - Show Bio
Moderator
#33 Edited by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@mercy_: The greater good, Perhaps your example and breakdown will inspire others to do likewise with other posts they have read. This thread will be all the better for it.

Also do you think i should link this in the rpg advice thread? or should i request a pin

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#34 Posted by Connoisseur (6599 posts) - - Show Bio

On selling attacks in some way or another, here's a way to sell something from a much weaker character. Say Prime Lady Liberty was fighting Shadowknight and he tried shooting her. Realistically, that bullet would never hit, and if it did, it wouldn't affect her. But lets continue. LL dodges the bullet but has her character comment on how inhumanly good SK's marksmanship skill is, and praise him for it, even claiming that it almost hit her, and that it was far more like a super-power than an actual skill. That would be some way of selling that attack without making LL look like a jobber. Or like you said, environmental effects could come into play to somehow weaken a powerful character.

Or lets say someone creates some type of intergalactic martial arts master (I had Gamora in mind for this one LOL) who feels that everyone on Earth possesses pathetic H2H skills compared to hers. Lets say this space martial artist is leaps and bounds ahead of anyone on Earth but she gets into a fight with the Last Arashikage. She's picking him apart but selling his attacks because she was caught off guard or surprised by how good he was and that she had underestimated him, causing her to sustain more damage than she should have, allowing for a more even match than it realistically would be. She may also be humbled (As Eddy pointed out) by the experience, that she was wrong and that an Earthling had surprised her. Something like that.

That's all I got, hoped it helped.

#35 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio

Counted on him including that bit.

#36 Edited by Pro_Nelson (1513 posts) - - Show Bio

Is there ever a time when like you should just chalk it up? Meaning let’s say someone has me on the ropes in terms of being in a battle and they go for a final blow but I somehow delay or dodge it. Isn’t that sort of bad in a sense (I struggle with this :D)

#37 Edited by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@andres_knightfall: Whoops forgot to get that bit lol will add it in, Thanks again man

@_strigidae_ forgot to check the pm before i did final draft and blanked my mind. Its fixed now

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#38 Posted by Connoisseur (6599 posts) - - Show Bio
#39 Posted by Spectrion (768 posts) - - Show Bio

@pro_nelson: Depends how the story goes but it can be seen as bad. If you get hit with what looks like a final blow but you don't want your character to die, these are the moments when you make use of that flight thing G mentioned earlier. Always remember that selling is under your control and if a kill shot is sent your way you can still take the damage without dying.

#40 Posted by Cassius_Knightfall (9263 posts) - - Show Bio

@pro_nelson: Dodging is never cheap if done properly your utilizing a skill a character has. But if you sell it as barely missing a last ditch effort to prevent death etc its absolutely fine. As said earlier its about making the attack look good but also giving you options.

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#41 Edited by Jean_Luc_LeBeau (84704 posts) - - Show Bio

Its a classic and funny line but in terms of selling its actually pretty relevant. A couple posts from yesterday got me thinking.

Andres sought to ruthlessly shove his forearm against his opponent's chest, relying on his positional advantage and kinetic momentum to force LeBeau onto the ground, remaining relatively unconcerned with Isadora's approximated presence despite the momentary tensing of his muscles upon briefly meeting her eyes. Should initial attempts prove successful, the Poised Picasso would seek to sit astride the Killer of Knightfalls' chest in full mount while simultaneously relying on his substantial physical strength, bodyweight, and hips to control his potentially grounded opponent. Maximum positional dominance would be attempted by working his knees up under into the arm pits to considerably reduce Charlemagne's possibility of reverse grappling while altogether limiting arm movement.

The amount of accurate description and effort in that paragraph almost sells itself. I want to sell this because it sounds badass. I want to sell it because I can tell it wasnt half-assed. Had it read something like,

"Andres tried to tackle the Arashikage and hammer his face with punches"

I probably would have subtly dismissed the attack/under sold it/not sold it at all. I'm not saying everything you sell should be the greatest post ever made or every user needs to put forth their best effort in order to be sold, but it helps alot. Another example -

He gave the Ultra Sapien a serious face a face that is determine.He was here to have a discussion with a person on the other side of the coin of good and evil but now it seems that talk is over now.He look straight at the man and the woman who is in trouble and have no idea what is about to happen here right now but he needs to be careful because this could be a trap.He remember what he said and though a few minutes ago about his friends and his actions , that he start to relies why they did what they did to make the world a better place and this man was making it worse for a lot of people.

With his left eye flash red for a second hoping the other man notices it.

"We are for talking and not fighting but I can see your intelligent and smart but your ego is holding it back and made this meeting I fear has gone off course and I wish that we do not have a fight which he can solve with words."

He gave him a serious look right at the man and gave his answer and that would make this meeting go either way.He folded his arms and made his right hand into a fist under the table.

"The answer is no and I though that we here to talk and not caused trouble because if you do I have friends that can be in this place less then a thirty seconds, so let the lady go and let's continued to talk."

If Charlemagne decides to hurt the lady he would flip the table over and grab the lady away from him .He would use his speed and agility that his enhancements can offer him to stop this from happening.

A little longer but same thing. This post makes me want to sell the scene because I can see the effort, I can see him selling. He could have just saved the girl, undersold me, called me a b!tch, and attacked. Postured up all billy badass and let the war of ego's fly. But he didnt. It makes me feel obligated to reciprocate the act. Although I could respond by attacking, calling him a bitch and that he aint sh!t......aaaaand I probably will but do as I say not as I do b!tches -_____________- j/k

Selling helps you stock pile credit and good will. You sold me here and here so rest assured I got you. I owe you and you know I'm good for it. There's actually been alot of this lately and its awesome.

Trash talking IC is fun but I personally would be careful simply because the minute you start ripping eachother before a fight the harder its going to be to sell a loss. At least for me. Maybe you all are just better people and if so, go F yourselves :D

#42 Edited by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio

@gambler said:

Trash talking IC is fun but I personally would be careful simply because the minute you start ripping eachother before a fight the harder its going to be to sell a loss. At least for me. Maybe you all are just better people and if so, go F yourselves :D

But how can that be, when you trash talk everybody?

#43 Posted by Charlemagne (6964 posts) - - Show Bio
#44 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4703 posts) - - Show Bio
#45 Posted by Charlemagne (6964 posts) - - Show Bio
#46 Posted by Referee (8209 posts) - - Show Bio

Someone should make a "Sell the Attack Above You" Thread!

I know I could use it

#47 Edited by ThisIsGonnaHurt (29794 posts) - - Show Bio

Make it as visceral as possible. Doesn't matter who gets hurt, just turn that pretty arena of yours red with blood - even if it's your own!

#48 Posted by warlock360 (28064 posts) - - Show Bio

#49 Posted by Charlemagne (6964 posts) - - Show Bio

hahaha I didnt get it at first but that was mildly amusing

#50 Posted by Strongarm (5857 posts) - - Show Bio

@referee said:

Someone should make a "Sell the Attack Above You" Thread!

I know I could use it

Done