#151 Posted by Nordok (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

#152 Posted by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@cvnu:

CVnU Empire Rules need to get revisited before this place turns into Prime again.

Enough people have already figured out if you just keep making claims over and over and switch the location, sooner or later they will get past the 3 days and get it free and clear. Almost everyone just gives up when someone pipes in and denies the claim, but this is going to get out of hand real quick.

Expecting everyone to drop what they are doing to defend every claim is asking too much, things are escalating from cities to countries to now entire continents.

#153 Posted by Arquitenens (4099 posts) - - Show Bio

@cvnu:

CVnU Empire Rules need to get revisited before this place turns into Prime again.

Enough people have already figured out if you just keep making claims over and over and switch the location, sooner or later they will get past the 3 days and get it free and clear. Almost everyone just gives up when someone pipes in and denies the claim, but this is going to get out of hand real quick.

Expecting everyone to drop what they are doing to defend every claim is asking too much, things are escalating from cities to countries to now entire continents.

Do we still know who all is on the CoE? It'd probably be more likely you get a tag there too.

#154 Posted by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice said:

@cvnu:

CVnU Empire Rules need to get revisited before this place turns into Prime again.

Enough people have already figured out if you just keep making claims over and over and switch the location, sooner or later they will get past the 3 days and get it free and clear. Almost everyone just gives up when someone pipes in and denies the claim, but this is going to get out of hand real quick.

Expecting everyone to drop what they are doing to defend every claim is asking too much, things are escalating from cities to countries to now entire continents.

Do we still know who all is on the CoE? It'd probably be more likely you get a tag there too.

If this does not get a response by late tomorrow I'll make a direct request, pretty sure someone will see it by then.

#155 Posted by Arquitenens (4099 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice: Bousa bousa! Best of luck, and stuff.

#156 Posted by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio
#157 Edited by Arquitenens (4099 posts) - - Show Bio
#158 Posted by Nordok (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

@cvnu:

CVnU Empire Rules need to get revisited before this place turns into Prime again.

Enough people have already figured out if you just keep making claims over and over and switch the location, sooner or later they will get past the 3 days and get it free and clear. Almost everyone just gives up when someone pipes in and denies the claim, but this is going to get out of hand real quick.

Expecting everyone to drop what they are doing to defend every claim is asking too much, things are escalating from cities to countries to now entire continents.

#159 Posted by Charlemagne (6969 posts) - - Show Bio

@cvnu:

CVnU Empire Rules need to get revisited before this place turns into Prime again.

Enough people have already figured out if you just keep making claims over and over and switch the location, sooner or later they will get past the 3 days and get it free and clear. Almost everyone just gives up when someone pipes in and denies the claim, but this is going to get out of hand real quick.

Expecting everyone to drop what they are doing to defend every claim is asking too much, things are escalating from cities to countries to now entire continents.

Honestly I think we're approaching the stages of, "Not in my Canon." This is a no win situation. You either have rules and people complain that you're roadblocking their creative freedom, or you have no rules and you get the World busters destroying city after city, country after country, until some people use it as canon and others dont. I'm not in the COE but I know for a fact its a thankless task. Its not fun telling someone they cant do something. But its also not fun when someone decides a country is ground zero for mega war while a post prior your character was walking in the park. Now you have two choices. Get involved and ditch what you were doing or say, "Not in my canon."

CVnU was at one time protected because technically it was an Rpg itself. And as such those who created it could set the rules. Its now the normal u and the line between what you can prevent and what you cant have been blurred. We've already seen a couple threads say, "if you dont like it dont post in it." Once those type of comments and threads are thrown down rules pretty much become moot.

#160 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4694 posts) - - Show Bio

Astute.

#161 Posted by Nordok (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice said:

@cvnu:

CVnU Empire Rules need to get revisited before this place turns into Prime again.

Enough people have already figured out if you just keep making claims over and over and switch the location, sooner or later they will get past the 3 days and get it free and clear. Almost everyone just gives up when someone pipes in and denies the claim, but this is going to get out of hand real quick.

Expecting everyone to drop what they are doing to defend every claim is asking too much, things are escalating from cities to countries to now entire continents.

Honestly I think we're approaching the stages of, "Not in my Canon." This is a no win situation. You either have rules and people complain that you're roadblocking their creative freedom, or you have no rules and you get the World busters destroying city after city, country after country, until some people use it as canon and others dont. I'm not in the COE but I know for a fact its a thankless task. Its not fun telling someone they cant do something. But its also not fun when someone decides a country is ground zero for mega war while a post prior your character was walking in the park. Now you have two choices. Get involved and ditch what you were doing or say, "Not in my canon."

CVnU was at one time protected because technically it was an Rpg itself. And as such those who created it could set the rules. Its now the normal u and the line between what you can prevent and what you cant have been blurred. We've already seen a couple threads say, "if you dont like it dont post in it." Once those type of comments and threads are thrown down rules pretty much become moot.

A valid point; if this is what people want, there's not much that can be done to stop them. I do find it interesting that so many people are looking to circumvent (or advocating for the outright abolition of) the empire rules, as this is going to basically turn the CVnU into nothing more than a rebooted Prime. Considering how much rage the mere mention of simply rebooting Prime used to elicit, this is more than a little ironic.

#162 Posted by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice said:

@cvnu:

CVnU Empire Rules need to get revisited before this place turns into Prime again.

Enough people have already figured out if you just keep making claims over and over and switch the location, sooner or later they will get past the 3 days and get it free and clear. Almost everyone just gives up when someone pipes in and denies the claim, but this is going to get out of hand real quick.

Expecting everyone to drop what they are doing to defend every claim is asking too much, things are escalating from cities to countries to now entire continents.

Honestly I think we're approaching the stages of, "Not in my Canon." This is a no win situation. You either have rules and people complain that you're roadblocking their creative freedom, or you have no rules and you get the World busters destroying city after city, country after country, until some people use it as canon and others dont. I'm not in the COE but I know for a fact its a thankless task. Its not fun telling someone they cant do something. But its also not fun when someone decides a country is ground zero for mega war while a post prior your character was walking in the park. Now you have two choices. Get involved and ditch what you were doing or say, "Not in my canon."

CVnU was at one time protected because technically it was an Rpg itself. And as such those who created it could set the rules. Its now the normal u and the line between what you can prevent and what you cant have been blurred. We've already seen a couple threads say, "if you dont like it dont post in it." Once those type of comments and threads are thrown down rules pretty much become moot.

My comment is not by any means me calling out the CoE, any member of it, or any person in particular. I fully understand that it is a thankless job and being the person to slap hands and tell people NO at times leaves them open as the unintentional bad guy/girl. My point is that everyone who was around in the Prime era knows what a complete cluster the Age of Empires made things, that is why Empire Rules were central to it's initial charter. But like any set of rules you cannot just make an initial draft and never revisit it because times change and new instances bring the reason to give it a second look. I do not blame the newer people who were not around as how could they know it went as badly as it did, lets just put it on the table and hash it out.

As for your point regarding do the rules even matter or apply at this point, again not my call, but in my opinion:

1 - There do need to be some minimal rules that keep one person or group from using large sections of the world as their own sandbox and pretty much forcing the "fragmented canon" you suggest. If the shackles have come off and anyone can just do whatever the hell they want at the very least it should be noted to all so they know what they are getting into.

2 - Having people respond to events and claims is not necessarily a bad thing, it can drive interaction, but it can also just be such a pain no one bothers. If we had specific windows where claims could be initiated (last week of the month for example) people could at least plan ahead and do all the other RPG stuff in the off time and be prepared to respond to a claim if it should come up. Look at the hero teams, have any of them had a single post from every member in a 3 day span? We need to encourage response, not make it so difficult no one bothers and we have villains who run amok.

3 - If people think a rule is outdated or can be improved we just need to discuss it like adults and not take challenges so personally. Most of these disputes can be solved with a common sense discussion and a degree of compromise.

#163 Posted by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice said:

@cvnu:

CVnU Empire Rules need to get revisited before this place turns into Prime again.

Enough people have already figured out if you just keep making claims over and over and switch the location, sooner or later they will get past the 3 days and get it free and clear. Almost everyone just gives up when someone pipes in and denies the claim, but this is going to get out of hand real quick.

Expecting everyone to drop what they are doing to defend every claim is asking too much, things are escalating from cities to countries to now entire continents.

Honestly I think we're approaching the stages of, "Not in my Canon." This is a no win situation. You either have rules and people complain that you're roadblocking their creative freedom, or you have no rules and you get the World busters destroying city after city, country after country, until some people use it as canon and others dont. I'm not in the COE but I know for a fact its a thankless task. Its not fun telling someone they cant do something. But its also not fun when someone decides a country is ground zero for mega war while a post prior your character was walking in the park. Now you have two choices. Get involved and ditch what you were doing or say, "Not in my canon."

CVnU was at one time protected because technically it was an Rpg itself. And as such those who created it could set the rules. Its now the normal u and the line between what you can prevent and what you cant have been blurred. We've already seen a couple threads say, "if you dont like it dont post in it." Once those type of comments and threads are thrown down rules pretty much become moot.

My comment is not by any means me calling out the CoE, any member of it, or any person in particular. I fully understand that it is a thankless job and being the person to slap hands and tell people NO at times leaves them open as the unintentional bad guy/girl. My point is that everyone who was around in the Prime era knows what a complete cluster the Age of Empires made things, that is why Empire Rules were central to it's initial charter. But like any set of rules you cannot just make an initial draft and never revisit it because times change and new instances bring the reason to give it a second look. I do not blame the newer people who were not around as how could they know it went as badly as it did, lets just put it on the table and hash it out.

As for your point regarding do the rules even matter or apply at this point, again not my call, but in my opinion:

1 - There do need to be some minimal rules that keep one person or group from using large sections of the world as their own sandbox and pretty much forcing the "fragmented canon" you suggest. If the shackles have come off and anyone can just do whatever the hell they want at the very least it should be noted to all so they know what they are getting into.

2 - Having people respond to events and claims is not necessarily a bad thing, it can drive interaction, but it can also just be such a pain no one bothers. If we had specific windows where claims could be initiated (last week of the month for example) people could at least plan ahead and do all the other RPG stuff in the off time and be prepared to respond to a claim if it should come up. Look at the hero teams, have any of them had a single post from every member in a 3 day span? We need to encourage response, not make it so difficult no one bothers and we have villains who run amok.

3 - If people think a rule is outdated or can be improved we just need to discuss it like adults and not take challenges so personally. Most of these disputes can be solved with a common sense discussion and a degree of compromise.

#164 Posted by Nordok (1211 posts) - - Show Bio

I really think that something we need to keep in mind is that the rules were never intended to discourage empire-building. They were just to ensure that there were protocols and procedures in place for doing so. More importantly, they were to ensure that we didn't have teams or individuals grabbing huge chunks of land and then going inactive and just sitting on them, making them unavailable for RPs. Honestly, if someone wants to tear through an entire continent, country by country, I'm all for it, as long as the rules are followed. However, claiming an empire doesn't mean it now belongs to him or her forever; there have to be opportunities for others to invade and topple that empire, and if the individual(s) in charge of that empire go MIA, then the empire needs to be declared defunct and the territory restored to its pre-empire status.

Bottom line, empires can be a lot of fun and be the seed for a lot of good RPs, but everyone who participates in one needs to understand the intention and spirit of the rules.

#165 Posted by Charlemagne (6969 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice: I'm not reading all that cause I think we're pretty much on the same page with some minor variations and possible misinterpretations. I know you're not calling out the COE. My point was more about, while revisiting and re-drafting the rules sounds good in theory, the members of the COE know full well that regardless of how hard they work in designing a new more complete set of rules, the negative feedback will dwarf the positive. The hate pm's will flow, the passive aggressive comments will flow, and sooner or later any and all desire to continuing fighting for the rules will be gone.

@nordok said:

I really think that something we need to keep in mind is that the rules were never intended to discourage empire-building.

This. I didnt even continue reading on cause this says it all.

#166 Edited by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice: I'm not reading all that cause I think we're pretty much on the same page with some minor variations and possible misinterpretations. I know you're not calling out the COE. My point was more about, while revisiting and re-drafting the rules sounds good in theory, the members of the COE know full well that regardless of how hard they work in designing a new more complete set of rules, the negative feedback will dwarf the positive. The hate pm's will flow, the passive aggressive comments will flow, and sooner or later any and all desire to continuing fighting for the rules will be gone.

@nordok said:

I really think that something we need to keep in mind is that the rules were never intended to discourage empire-building.

This. I didnt even continue reading on cause this says it all.

LOL, short version:

Have a system to revise the now 7+ month old rules to adapt to things as they come up

OR

Scrap the rules altogether because without being open to change what is the point.

#167 Edited by Charlemagne (6969 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice said:

@the_last_arashikage said:

@armistice: I'm not reading all that cause I think we're pretty much on the same page with some minor variations and possible misinterpretations. I know you're not calling out the COE. My point was more about, while revisiting and re-drafting the rules sounds good in theory, the members of the COE know full well that regardless of how hard they work in designing a new more complete set of rules, the negative feedback will dwarf the positive. The hate pm's will flow, the passive aggressive comments will flow, and sooner or later any and all desire to continuing fighting for the rules will be gone.

@nordok said:

I really think that something we need to keep in mind is that the rules were never intended to discourage empire-building.

This. I didnt even continue reading on cause this says it all.

LOL, short version:

Have a system to revise the now 7+ month old rules to adapt to things as they come up

OR

Scrap the rules altogether because without being open to change what is the point.

<-----scrapped a five year character and history in favor of change ;P

#168 Posted by Mercy_ (92708 posts) - - Show Bio

The rules have been revised before and there is a system in place, just an fyi.

Moderator
#169 Posted by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice said:

@the_last_arashikage said:

@armistice: I'm not reading all that cause I think we're pretty much on the same page with some minor variations and possible misinterpretations. I know you're not calling out the COE. My point was more about, while revisiting and re-drafting the rules sounds good in theory, the members of the COE know full well that regardless of how hard they work in designing a new more complete set of rules, the negative feedback will dwarf the positive. The hate pm's will flow, the passive aggressive comments will flow, and sooner or later any and all desire to continuing fighting for the rules will be gone.

@nordok said:

I really think that something we need to keep in mind is that the rules were never intended to discourage empire-building.

This. I didnt even continue reading on cause this says it all.

LOL, short version:

Have a system to revise the now 7+ month old rules to adapt to things as they come up

OR

Scrap the rules altogether because without being open to change what is the point.

<-----scrapped a five year character and history in favor of change ;P

I understand and the sacrifice was commendable, I and some others simply want to know are we going to continue with the idea of a framework as the CVnU was established under, or are we going to just let it become the anything goes Wild West that was Prime.

I am not saying you are not open to change, I question if the framework we have all have been working under if the proposed view holds.

Again this is all IMO.

#170 Posted by Charlemagne (6969 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_arashikage said:

@armistice said:

@the_last_arashikage said:

@armistice: I'm not reading all that cause I think we're pretty much on the same page with some minor variations and possible misinterpretations. I know you're not calling out the COE. My point was more about, while revisiting and re-drafting the rules sounds good in theory, the members of the COE know full well that regardless of how hard they work in designing a new more complete set of rules, the negative feedback will dwarf the positive. The hate pm's will flow, the passive aggressive comments will flow, and sooner or later any and all desire to continuing fighting for the rules will be gone.

@nordok said:

I really think that something we need to keep in mind is that the rules were never intended to discourage empire-building.

This. I didnt even continue reading on cause this says it all.

LOL, short version:

Have a system to revise the now 7+ month old rules to adapt to things as they come up

OR

Scrap the rules altogether because without being open to change what is the point.

<-----scrapped a five year character and history in favor of change ;P

I understand and the sacrifice was commendable, I and some others simply want to know are we going to continue with the idea of a framework as the CVnU was established under, or are we going to just let it become the anything goes Wild West that was Prime.

I am not saying you are not open to change, I question if the framework we have all have been working under if the proposed view holds.

Again this is all IMO.

Honestly, in my opinion, its only a matter of time before its the Wild West again. I've always believed that. But I could be wrong. Nobody thought CVnU would last and it has so who knows. As for changing/revising the rules, thats a COE issue. I do question the timing of it though. Seems like moving the goal posts.

#171 Edited by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice said:

@the_last_arashikage said:

@armistice said:

@the_last_arashikage said:

@armistice: I'm not reading all that cause I think we're pretty much on the same page with some minor variations and possible misinterpretations. I know you're not calling out the COE. My point was more about, while revisiting and re-drafting the rules sounds good in theory, the members of the COE know full well that regardless of how hard they work in designing a new more complete set of rules, the negative feedback will dwarf the positive. The hate pm's will flow, the passive aggressive comments will flow, and sooner or later any and all desire to continuing fighting for the rules will be gone.

@nordok said:

I really think that something we need to keep in mind is that the rules were never intended to discourage empire-building.

This. I didnt even continue reading on cause this says it all.

LOL, short version:

Have a system to revise the now 7+ month old rules to adapt to things as they come up

OR

Scrap the rules altogether because without being open to change what is the point.

<-----scrapped a five year character and history in favor of change ;P

I understand and the sacrifice was commendable, I and some others simply want to know are we going to continue with the idea of a framework as the CVnU was established under, or are we going to just let it become the anything goes Wild West that was Prime.

I am not saying you are not open to change, I question if the framework we have all have been working under if the proposed view holds.

Again this is all IMO.

Honestly, in my opinion, its only a matter of time before its the Wild West again. I've always believed that. But I could be wrong. Nobody thought CVnU would last and it has so who knows. As for changing/revising the rules, thats a COE issue. I do question the timing of it though. Seems like moving the goal posts.

And if the majority want to return to the Wild West of Prime with no restrictions, it is out of my hands, lets just be clear one way or the other.

I am not trying to rain on someones parade, but there are people other than me who question if it is a good idea or not. Better to hash it out now before he has done a ton of work in prep, than have it devolve into a fray in the middle.

If the CoE rule it is fine and can be duplicated at that scale in the future, I guess that is it.

#172 Posted by _Titan (3364 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice said:

@the_last_arashikage said:

@armistice said:

@the_last_arashikage said:

@armistice: I'm not reading all that cause I think we're pretty much on the same page with some minor variations and possible misinterpretations. I know you're not calling out the COE. My point was more about, while revisiting and re-drafting the rules sounds good in theory, the members of the COE know full well that regardless of how hard they work in designing a new more complete set of rules, the negative feedback will dwarf the positive. The hate pm's will flow, the passive aggressive comments will flow, and sooner or later any and all desire to continuing fighting for the rules will be gone.

@nordok said:

I really think that something we need to keep in mind is that the rules were never intended to discourage empire-building.

This. I didnt even continue reading on cause this says it all.

LOL, short version:

Have a system to revise the now 7+ month old rules to adapt to things as they come up

OR

Scrap the rules altogether because without being open to change what is the point.

<-----scrapped a five year character and history in favor of change ;P

I understand and the sacrifice was commendable, I and some others simply want to know are we going to continue with the idea of a framework as the CVnU was established under, or are we going to just let it become the anything goes Wild West that was Prime.

I am not saying you are not open to change, I question if the framework we have all have been working under if the proposed view holds.

Again this is all IMO.

Honestly, in my opinion, its only a matter of time before its the Wild West again. I've always believed that. But I could be wrong. Nobody thought CVnU would last and it has so who knows. As for changing/revising the rules, thats a COE issue. I do question the timing of it though. Seems like moving the goal posts.

Slides in

It's only gonna get worse if the rules aren't updated and a poll isn't taken. Don't get my meaning wrong, this was a great start but it needs to be played with more as time moves forward to be fine tuned into something that brings more room for innovation to the table while keeping the general creativity and production level protected.

For one it could be run more democratically. If for no reason than to not hear how you guys are the dictators of the rules.

The CoE could be the Congress, while the general vote of what rules will be favored or accepted is also considered by the general rpg public. You guys will get the last say but not before taking into account every perspective on the issue and realizing your choices affect before hand on the board. It'd be barely a longer process and the end result would be worth it.

#173 Posted by Charlemagne (6969 posts) - - Show Bio

@flucks said:

Slides in

It's only gonna get worse if the rules aren't updated and a poll isn't taken. Don't get my meaning wrong, this was a great start but it needs to be played with more as time moves forward to be fine tuned into something that brings more room for innovation to the table while keeping the general creativity and production level protected.

For one it could be run more democratically. If for no reason than to not hear how you guys are the dictators of the rules.

The CoE could be the Congress, while the general vote of what rules will be favored or accepted is also considered by the general rpg public. You guys will get the last say but not before taking into account every perspective on the issue and realizing your choices affect before hand on the board. It'd be barely a longer process and the end result would be worth it.

Not against changing/revisiting the rules.

But as far as being "democratic" I'm not technically opposed to the idea but to many chefs in the kitchen is a bad thing. The reason CVnU got off the ground so easily was because there werent a million different voices all trying to add their perceptive. Its the main reason (I believe) all the Prime pms never led to its resurrection. To many people all trying to be heard and nothing getting done. But for the sake of argument what in particular would you change about the rules? What exactly about the Empire creation rules arent working?

#174 Posted by _Titan (3364 posts) - - Show Bio

@the_last_arashikage: I get that.

Way I see it possibly going is you guys hear out an idea for changing rules, could come at anytime to any one on the CoE, convene and talk about it and take a vote inside the group, then at the end see what the general public thinks in more of a yes or no way. Taking a simple poll (Post poll, not that shady built in version) of yay's and nay's, tally them, and if they come out with more no's then yes you ask why so many no's. then chip off the pieces of the raw block i.e. restarting the process, until you come up with a fine chiseled white man with a gif leaf on his jimmy that everybody can agree on.

That wouldn't go down as some laser pointed event, just a side project that would be worked on over time to fine tune the best possible version of the rules to really work, gradually. It could well take a year or longer until we have a set of rules that the gen pop would respect and even like but eventually if taken in stride I think it's possible.

#175 Edited by Charlemagne (6969 posts) - - Show Bio

@flucks said:

@the_last_arashikage: I get that.

Way I see it possibly going is you guys hear out an idea for changing rules,

"those guys"

<----not in the COE just getting my Rush on :p

#176 Posted by Connoisseur (6579 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice: What in your opinion do you think needs to be changed about the CVnU rules?

#177 Edited by _Titan (3364 posts) - - Show Bio

@flucks said:

@the_last_arashikage: I get that.

Way I see it possibly going is you guys hear out an idea for changing rules,

"those guys"

<----not in the COE just getting my Rush on :p

haha sonofabtch, I thought you were.

The CoE is an illusion isn't it. It's just LL behind a curtain

#178 Posted by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice: What in your opinion do you think needs to be changed about the CVnU rules?

I have a lot of posts spread out, I'll try to respond with the short version and important points and remove the fluff.

#179 Posted by Connoisseur (6579 posts) - - Show Bio
#180 Posted by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@morte_knightfall:

Empire Rules - Points To Consider

1 - The onus on the claiming of land and expanding an Empire falls very much in the favor of the aggressor. People can post as many claims as they chose, and if it gets countered just let it go and try another location at a later time. There is nothing keeping someone from establishing one (example South Africa) and then keep invading other lands over and over knowing sooner or later people are just not going to be around to put up an opposition because of availability, or just not wanting to constantly drop what they are doing to deal with the new claim of the day or week. The proposed attempted takeover of Africa would involve 50+ threads and actions and there is no way it will ever get to that point before people wash their hands of it and just give it to him so they can move on with their own objectives.

Suggestions:

- Have a specific window where people could make claims for land or expansions of Empires (last week of a month for example). This will give everyone plenty of time to work on their own canon and development, and teams can at least ready themselves to tie up things so they can deal with new claims in a manageable way and be forced to drop everything else at a moments notice or aggression goes unchecked.

- Force Empires to grow at a smaller scale out of the gate, no going from a team to a country overnight. Too much land locked off too fast, if it went from (Team - Territory - Town - City - State - Country - etc.) it would let everyone know the person who was looking to become a Major Empire was serious about making use of each expansion before allowing them easy dominion over a big chunk of usable CVnU. If someone went through all these steps and then went on a spree of the proposed scale, we could at least be assured they are invested enough to make the risk worth it.

- Because of the ebb and flow of what alignment is in rage (sometimes all heroes, others all villains) common sense needs to be applied in the case where there is few if any of an opposed alignment active and one side can expand with impunity. If something major is going to change sides, it had better be through a conflict that is not one sided because of outside factors. NPC armies and forces on each side should be negated as much as possible to make this about the actual characters we care about, not someones 100,000 rent-a-soldier or disposable robot NPC army.

- Prime was partially undone by people being too focused on building and expanding Empires with no controls, asking people to earn them by more than a single event to get and entire country will likely keep pretenders from taking an easy one while allowing the serious world builders to do their thing, just at a slower pace.

CVnU Rules in General

I have seen some of the rules established be challenged and the disputes have not always went smoothly. We all know the Vine is terrible at conflict resolution and things get personal way too often.

I would like to see any dispute as to a proposed new rule, rule change, rule interpritation be done publicly for the most part and in this thread. Knowing a ruling is one thing, seeing the logic behind it is another and may make everyone have a better idea of the why behind things.

(Might have missed points but this is plenty for now)

#181 Edited by Connoisseur (6579 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice: The specific window of opportunity for empire attempts actually sounds significantly plausible and logical. I rarely get into these discussions but the last time a major discussion regarding empires was proposed, I made clear that I'm in favor of gradual buildup in the claiming of an empire. Start small with reasonable buildup to make it relatively believable, its demoralizing to see someone able to claim and build an empire overnight. In any case, I am not against empires as long as said user claiming the empire is doing so for story-based reasons and not to force 'their' canon on others. Adding this to the existing empire rules should help.

#182 Edited by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

@armistice: The specific window of opportunity for empire attempts actually sounds significantly plausible and logical. I rarely get into these discussions but the last time a major discussion regarding empires was proposed, I made clear that I'm in favor of gradual buildup in the claiming of an empire. Start small with reasonable buildup to make it relatively believable, its demoralizing to see someone able to claim and build an empire overnight. In any case, I am not against empires as long as said user claiming the empire is doing so for story-based reasons and not to force 'their' canon on others. Adding this to the existing empire rules should help.

Curious to see others opinions, pretty sure with others input these off the cuff suggestions could be refined and improved. My bias against prior Empires is no secret, but only because of the unchecked nature and sketchy history. If they were earned more than self given I think my distaste for them and others of like mind would be minimized and reduce drama in the long run.

#183 Posted by Barkins (440 posts) - - Show Bio

Suggestion:

Ya'll might want to post up in your general rules that you discourage 'competitive' fighters and that high tier characters are expected to nerf themselves in relation to their opponent even in tournaments. Might save a lot of confusion with expectations.

#184 Posted by Charlemagne (6969 posts) - - Show Bio

@barkins: For some reason I get the feeling that that is passive aggressively related to your KoV match-up. I could be wrong though lol. I wouldnt go so far as to say its expected (and its certainly not a sweeping across the board thing. everyone sells and or jobs on different levels). But lets also be real here, no one wants to engage in a fight where their character is completely dismantled in one post (even if the character they are fighting could do it). Its a comicbook site and the rpgs are reflective of that. Its why Superman doesnt just pwn every single low tier character in the Universe in the first panel of a comic and forever be done with it. Its why Batman hangs with super powered characters one issue and struggles against a normal human the next.

If the fights become all about wins and losses then there would be no street level characters, no normal human characters, and 100% overpowered I cant be defeated World Busters all trying to one up each-other in some massive superhuman arms race.

Tournaments can get sketchy cause they pit high tiers against low tiers in fights that the lower tiers would most likely otherwise avoid. Same in comics, you dont see Galactus taking on the Punisher, or Darkseid squaring off against Steve Trevor. And if or when they do the creators/writers of the story try really hard to present a somewhat plausible explanation. Doesnt always work but thats just the way it is I guess.

#185 Edited by Barkins (440 posts) - - Show Bio

Like I said.

It would be a good suggestion to label yourselves non-competitive to avoid confusion. I'm not mad at all, lol, just wish I had known ahead of time so I didn't become confused. It's not a competitive environment, it's not bad but it's just not my thing. A label would help to deter any competitive fighters that might happen across ya'll in the future.

Aggressive would be a big post trying to get ya'll to conform to my way of thinking. Ya'll aren't wrong, nor bad, just different and perhaps a label should be attached.

If you'd like to hear my reasoning/feelings in depth I can discuss it over PMs but I'm not meaning it in an aggressive way at all, I play nice; it's a game afterall, lol.

#186 Edited by Charlemagne (6969 posts) - - Show Bio

@barkins: I actually would like to hear more if for no other reason then curiosity. Never rp'd anywhere else and would like to hear more about the "competitive" rpger.

#187 Posted by Arquitenens (4099 posts) - - Show Bio

That's interesting.

#188 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

There really should be a push to try and get people to look beyond Earth and make up locales of their own rather than try vainly to slot things into reality. When everything is earth centric, you find that powerful or influential characters don't get a chance to shine due to Status Quo being God and making Earth too different from reality is sacrosanct.

While keeping Earth similar to our world theoretically helps newbies get in, in the long run it encourages the same plot threads over and over again. I mean how many wars did we have that ultimately changed nothing because of reset buttons?

I mean, even events that are staples of comic books like Alien Invasions or attempted World take overs get nixed or have to tone themselves down until they become pointless because you may as well have just have used a bank robbery for all the impact it will have.

I mean I only wanted Canada back so I can have an earthbound location people can freely decimate and destroy and butt heads with powerhouses or change around because holy hell am I tired of supergeniuses making wondertech without it affecting the General public or the actual implications of how superheroes would change things never being considered.

Like I miss the high stakes events of Prime, no matter how cheesy or corny they were. But I'm hoping to gather friends to partake in my big damn mega-arc so I can finally give my villains a good send off and beat down and have memorable moments with friends, and of course start bringing my cast together.

Honestly both nU and prime got bogged down in a fear of change. In Prime the Imperialists gobbled up so much territory that you literally could not do anything with Earth and people forgot that space and other realms are a thing. Here the Status quo is way too entrenched and the passive aggressive disdain for powerhouse characters (You people hide it poorly) has kind of ground everything to "morally ambiguous street level ninjas or gtfo." ((Still better than "Bisexual vampire from hell with katanas" which was the last stereotypical vine character)) that do a lot but change nothing in the long run.

Maybe it's because I think EMH, the MCU, and the DCAU are the gold standards of superhero fiction, but the metaplot needs shaking up and something new. Which I am working on with Kratesis and hope to ensnare more likeminded people.

#189 Posted by FuzionGuy (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@guardian_of_gravity: I don't really see why you posted this in the Rules thread, as you didn't make any comments or suggestions even remotely related to the rules there...

I understand where you're coming from, I've written my fair few sword-swinging characters, but I've never really felt that characters like Eclipse and now Fuzion are really excluded from anything, and I would definitely define them as 'powerhouse' characters. It's about trying to be as inclusive as possible, about making sure that the archer with no powers can stand next to the Demi-god and still have an influence on the story.

But yeah, I think this debate belongs somewhere else, because there's no way we can really alter the rules to try and achieve what you're talking about.

#190 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

@fuzionguy: I'd say lift a few rules that get in the way of the more out there events.

I do miss the old old prime attitude of "if it exists it's worth role playing" with tons of really weird ideas flying around and getting played.

I think we need to go back to the "we'll play anything, no matter how stupid or silly" attitude we had when I was still Megaguirus and the really early days of Dreadnaught.

Man, I couldn't stick with one character before Sha and Warsman made it cool.

#191 Posted by FuzionGuy (402 posts) - - Show Bio

@guardian_of_gravity: Then make some actual suggestions?

I understand where you're coming from, but honestly your comments are just coming across as "man, I miss the good ol' days!" rather than any actual constructive ideas for how to actually implement these ideas. You're talking about 'going back to this attitude', but there's no practical way to change the 'attitude' of such a large community of people.

You have to lead by example round here, that's what I did. I came back after a couple years absence and saw a real lack of teams, so I started trying to bring them back by actually setting up a couple of teams. It seems a few other people have had the same thought recently and now we're starting to build up some teams again. If you want to explore the universe outside Earth, then start building stuff out there for people to use. It's not something I'm very interested in, but others might want to join you.

#192 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

@fuzionguy: Which is what me and Kratesis are doing, want in?

Get to do something really big.

#193 Posted by Armistice (4109 posts) - - Show Bio

There really should be a push to try and get people to look beyond Earth and make up locales of their own rather than try vainly to slot things into reality. When everything is earth centric, you find that powerful or influential characters don't get a chance to shine due to Status Quo being God and making Earth too different from reality is sacrosanct.

While keeping Earth similar to our world theoretically helps newbies get in, in the long run it encourages the same plot threads over and over again. I mean how many wars did we have that ultimately changed nothing because of reset buttons?

I mean, even events that are staples of comic books like Alien Invasions or attempted World take overs get nixed or have to tone themselves down until they become pointless because you may as well have just have used a bank robbery for all the impact it will have.

I mean I only wanted Canada back so I can have an earthbound location people can freely decimate and destroy and butt heads with powerhouses or change around because holy hell am I tired of supergeniuses making wondertech without it affecting the General public or the actual implications of how superheroes would change things never being considered.

Like I miss the high stakes events of Prime, no matter how cheesy or corny they were. But I'm hoping to gather friends to partake in my big damn mega-arc so I can finally give my villains a good send off and beat down and have memorable moments with friends, and of course start bringing my cast together.

Honestly both nU and prime got bogged down in a fear of change. In Prime the Imperialists gobbled up so much territory that you literally could not do anything with Earth and people forgot that space and other realms are a thing. Here the Status quo is way too entrenched and the passive aggressive disdain for powerhouse characters (You people hide it poorly) has kind of ground everything to "morally ambiguous street level ninjas or gtfo." ((Still better than "Bisexual vampire from hell with katanas" which was the last stereotypical vine character)) that do a lot but change nothing in the long run.

Maybe it's because I think EMH, the MCU, and the DCAU are the gold standards of superhero fiction, but the metaplot needs shaking up and something new. Which I am working on with Kratesis and hope to ensnare more likeminded people.

Correction:

My disdain for ridiculously overpowered characters has always been very blunt and direct

As for your points:

1 - I agree that deep space is underused, and IMO it is a much better place for the grand scale conflicts and god/cosmic tier characters than Earth itself. This is an RPG site with dozens of writers and asking them all to just agree to hand a handful of them carte blanche to rewrite the staus quo at will is going to make anyone nervous and apprehensive. Everybody has to share and just because you (or I for that matter) think something is a good idea, does not mean it works for the whole. Asking all the characters that play lower tier characters and are earth-centric to just let you re-write the planet when you have the rest of the cosmos to play with considering they are stuck on the blue orb should be expected.

2 - While I will give you that Prime and it's "anything goes" policy was far less restrictive, but many times it was also "anything goes really badly". Take a look at the track record of events and it's pretty easy to see why people are hesitant. In my experience the bigger the scale the worse the event goes, but I was not around for the early period of Prime so that is just my perspective (towards the end of Prime / CvnU)

3 - Are things on the Vine stagnant, absolutely. Is the cosmic scene dead, absolutely. Will making Earth the Wild West of Cosmic Carnage improve things, not in my opinion. Expecting everyone to hand you the keys to the kingdom because you have a grand plan involving your own cast is pretty unrealistic. If people were willing to start the changes small and let them grow organically, people could see how they work and not freak out when someone asks for Canada or Africa like it's nothing.

#194 Edited by Guardian_of_Gravity (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys already gave me Canada, I just asked to bring back Exemp and now I have the country.

In any case I'm forming a cadre and seeing if I can hook in more people as time goes along. It's well over twelve events stretched out over a year or more.

And early Prime was zany, anytime there was a movie, an RP was made for it, the plots were generally silver age, tongue in cheekness was very prevalent, villains were mustache twirlers, heroes true blues, no canon was established, a paragragph long post was seen as weird.

Overall early vine is to what you know as the Golden age is to the Modern Age. There were no rules because everything was so formulative. We were throwing crap at the wall until it stuck and a lot of it sucked but there was enough to go around.

Of course you also had some pretty terrible role players like Sturm who left a mark so deep everyone was suspected of being an alt of his for a while.

#195 Posted by Fukuro_Zoku (4694 posts) - - Show Bio

@guardian_of_gravity: In the following comments I got confuddled. Are you advocating more space adventures or more free destruction on Earth?

#196 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

@_strigidae_: More spehss and asgard type thingies, but I did take Canada to have a go to point for earth based stuff while still having it be a first world nation.

I may want New Zealand at some point in the future for similar purposes and to make cheap sheep buggery jokes. :P

#197 Posted by Mercy_ (92708 posts) - - Show Bio

You guys already gave me Canada, I just asked to bring back Exemp and now I have the country.

Wait, what? I don't remember a discussion thread or an RPG for this, both of which you'd need if you're going to control Canada.

Moderator
#198 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

@mercy_: @mercy_: Gambler said I could have it back so I went and rennovated Exemplaria.

#199 Posted by Mercy_ (92708 posts) - - Show Bio

@guardian_of_gravity: What do you mean, have it back? Are you in control of the country and hold substantial territory/forces? Or did you just set up a free roam location in there? Because if it qualifies for this stuff, it's an empire and would need to go through the empire process.

Do you govern land, dictating political policies, controlling a countries natural resources and or borders? Have you replaced a countries army with your own, or do you possess an army? In short if you have any significant control over territory inside the solar system then you have an empire.

Moderator
#200 Posted by Guardian_of_Gravity (2979 posts) - - Show Bio

I changed it a bit to make a metahuman dominated megacity like Exemplaria fit, but otherwise it's the same old Canada with the same political leaders, political ties, trade agreements and political bodies. None of my characters control it and the main change was a bigger population and a somewhat higher overall tech level in keeping with the nU's technical advancements.

Exemplaria itself is a sparkly tribute to Paragon City of CoH fame but holds little political relevance outside of being a city of 25 million with a large meta populace.

A city I plan om leveling eventually anyway.