@psyknight: Read the Darth Bane trilogy which is really good .
Black Eden Estate™ (Partially Destroyed)
@xenon_ said:
The original animates series is not canon, only the later one. But it's an established fact Grievous is unable to use the force as he does not possess enough midichlorians due to his body now being synthetic. His race is originally force secretive and I think he may have once been force sensitive, but not anymore.
Thats cool, my argument isnt dependent on Grievous' force sensitivity or lack there of.
@xenon_ said:
Vader chose certain death because I'm sure he was dying anyways. His son was in danger, and instinctively, he used the quickest and most effective method of dispatching the emperor. His hands (or hand). He has been shown to effortlessly lift grown me up who are in armor off of the ground with a single arm. In official canon Vader has amplified physical strength without the force. Lifting Palps up probably took little to no effort from Vader due to his enhancements. But that's all discounting the fact he probably could not have used the force even if he wanted to for the reasons I will state below.
Based off what exactly? He was standing next to the Emperor for several minutes doing nothing. Not exactly the actions of a dying man who's surrendered to his injuries. Injuries that seem to be purely based off physical exertion and the loss of a hand that was already gone to begin with. If it had truly been the quickest most effective manner this conversation never would have taken hold. For example, you say he's picked up grown men with a single arm, but guess what, he's crushed buildings with force TK. Concrete durability > organic durability. He's been shown to rip chunks out of structures with but a twitch...twitch, of his hand. One hand. He tossed ships around with force tk without straining a muscle. Mental or physical.
@xenon_ said:
Darth Vader is unable to use the most potent, easily attainable ability of the Sith - The lightning. Force lighting is a direct and most pure form of dark force there is. It's what any Sith can effortlessly do through their hands, even the weakest Sith. Vader was unable due to his limbs not being natural. That's the only proof I need to prove that having no hands dramatically effects your force ability.
I'm curious what source you're using in reference to force lightning being the most easily attainable? Especially seeing as how Vader had all sorts of Sith force abilities. So by your own logic that would mean that his force powers were actually greater then Sith who could use force lightning. Right? He had beast control, dun moch, wind control, induce fear, mind control, etc. But this portion/argument is moot. Vader's inability to use force lightning isnt a reflection of power, but circumstance. Unlike force TK, using force lightning would have shorted out Vader's electronic life support. So its not a matter of not being able to "obtain" the ability, but rather doing so would kill him. Big difference and nothing to do with needing hands to use the force.
@xenon_ said:
The loss of his robotic arm was too much to overcome, yes, because he had just battled his son, and was tired, and emotionally low, you can't use the force if you are not felling up to the job. Luke struggles to use it when he is not motivated, inspired, whatever, Vader is the same. But Vader is even worse off because he cannot use the most basic form of Sith (or Dark) force.
Vader has so many durability feats that render this statement untrue its not even funny. This idea that Vader was "too depressed" to use a force push is comical :P Come on man lol If he was "motivated" enough to grab, lift, and toss the Emperor in order to save his son, then clearly he'd have enough motivation to use the most convenient method (force tk) available. It would have been quicker and easily more efficient then going raw dog on Palps. Please show me where Force Lightning is the most basic dark force ability and how not using force lightning somehow equals weakness? Especially when I've already listed but a few of the other dark force abilities Vader did have. Like I stated, everyone, Jedi, Sith, even force sensitives could force TK. Thats the most basic ability. There are countless citations in canon issues in which Jedi masters make claims of having never encountered a more powerful force user then Vader. Yet to hear you tell it, he was a low rate just because he didnt "use" force lightning. Not cause he couldnt achieve it, but because his mechanical life support would have been fried. How's this for "basic dark force powers"
@xenon_ said:
The force is a mind thing. But the hands are used to direct the flow of the force. Saying Luke done it once is just a feat which nobody else has really demonstrated in character. Yoda, The Emperor, Windu, all of them use their hands. Why? To look cool. Nope. Because the hands are how you shape the universe with the force. Without hands, you can't use the force as easily. It was easier for Darth to use his physical strength as opposed to exerting himself with the force.
PLUS He was desperate and acting instinctively. His son was being killed due, he did not have time to muster up the strength to use the force like Luke did without his hands, nah, he just waltzed up to the Emperor and threw his ass away LOL
Luke was just one example, Vader himself has gone "hands free." Plus...he still had his other hand lol One twitch, game over Palps overboard end of story. If Vader downed ships with one hand and no stress, how is flinging Palps with one hand and tired some unachievable action? I dont understand that line of thought. Vader's used the force while under duress, while injured, even while dying. But somehow this one fight took so much out of him that the force had abandoned him? The scan above kinda disproves that idea.
I would agree except he had been standing there, next to Palps, for quite sometime. There was nothing to indicate desperation or even instincts. Or else his sacrifice would have been instantaneous, knee jerk. Instead he stood there and contemplated the entire scene before doing anything at all. He had all the time in the World to gather enough energy for a force push, check the scene out again. Luke cries and cries for a good while and Vader just stands there. Pretty sure Vader organ crushed a foe with tk before. That also illustrates a level of surgical tk prowess thats above the average force TK user and lends heavy credence to the fact that he could, should, have easily been able to us TK to defeat the Emperor without having to electrocute himself in the process.
Tans
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