Will Obama be re-elected in 2012?
"@Hellos, we already been thru all that man. He's gotten ripped by majority for doing all that I listed except maybe the bill(which is still 50/50 anyway) it's not like everyone whole is for that... Like I've said before, only time will tell and I'll be surprised if he gets re-elected...the way he's going now. "
Two years out, calling it now who wins is too much of a stretch for me, I'm put my vote in C for that reason. :P
Like I said, some people need to understand the true definition of the word "Socialist" before saying Obama isn't one...lol yet evidence of what he stands for says the opposite. I would have thought Obama Lover would have been taken as a compliment to the dude defending him so much? So that's an insult? Interesting....
@hellos which is why I said the path he's on now, lower approval ratings, lots of controversial moves he's making etc don't help him at all.... who knows, nobody can predict the future man...for all we know Obama can get shot before that time(Disclaimer:for those wondering, that's just an example of the future being unpredictable...that is not me hoping he gets shot-to the Obama Lovers that get easily offended...anything of the above should it happen in real life is nothing more then a coincidence)
If based on how well he has dealt with fixing Bush's problems and dealing with the new problems that has arose. No. If given some time to deal with past problems and the new ones that has arisen. Yes.
There are so many things I could say on this thread... so many MEAN things...but I'd probably get in trouble some how, so I'll keep it vague.
All I have to say is that America is a DEMOCRACY and so our leaders should be working for the good of the DEMOCRACY. If they like being SOCIALISTIC they can go to a SOCIALISTIC COUNTRY and ruin that country's chances of prosperity there. We have enough pompous windbags that make alot of eloquant and pretty speeches, but don't have any idea how to help the common people...I say the less of them the better. We need people in office who genuinly want to promote the good of the people, not their own paycheck or freakin' communistic ideas.
So many of the problems in this country can be traced back to the previous administration. I hate to say it but time hasn't really told on Obama's term. Most of the major changes that he's tried to install have been blocked by a inept congress and some of the worse bashing since Kennedy. Obama's legacy is going to be defined by congress, if they get with the program then he'll be remembered fondly, if not then it's probably a failure.
"If you know so much about socialism enlighten me.Like I said, some people need to understand the true definition of the word "Socialist" before saying Obama isn't one...lol yet evidence of what he stands for says the opposite. I would have thought Obama Lover would have been taken as a compliment to the dude defending him so much? So that's an insult? Interesting....
"
@hellos which is why I said the path he's on now, lower approval ratings, lots of controversial moves he's making etc don't help him at all.... who knows, nobody can predict the future man...for all we know Obama can get shot before that time(Disclaimer:for those wondering, that's just an example of the future being unpredictable...that is not me hoping he gets shot-to the Obama Lovers that get easily offended...anything of the above should it happen in real life is nothing more then a coincidence)
Calling people Socialistic(which isn't even a word) and then say they care to much about their own paycheck is about as wrong as you can get." There are so many things I could say on this thread... so many MEAN things...but I'd probably get in trouble some how, so I'll keep it vague. All I have to say is that America is a DEMOCRACY and so our leaders should be working for the good of the DEMOCRACY. If they like being SOCIALISTIC they can go to a SOCIALISTIC COUNTRY and ruin that country's chances of prosperity there. We have enough pompous windbags that make alot of eloquant and pretty speeches, but don't have any idea how to help the common people...I say the less of them the better. We need people in office who genuinly want to promote the good of the people, not their own paycheck or freakin' communistic ideas. "
Dude in socialism everything is controlled by the public not like capitalism were power and wealth is concentrated on a select few. And the view of communism isn't to have the state control everything, it is to abolish any form of class system and the state so that the people can do what needs to be done for the people.
America isn't a true democracy. It's a representative republic. We elect leaders to make decision for us therefore we are not a democracy, although we have democratic ideals." There are so many things I could say on this thread... so many MEAN things...but I'd probably get in trouble some how, so I'll keep it vague. All I have to say is that America is a DEMOCRACY and so our leaders should be working for the good of the DEMOCRACY. If they like being SOCIALISTIC they can go to a SOCIALISTIC COUNTRY and ruin that country's chances of prosperity there. We have enough pompous windbags that make alot of eloquant and pretty speeches, but don't have any idea how to help the common people...I say the less of them the better. We need people in office who genuinly want to promote the good of the people, not their own paycheck or freakin' communistic ideas. "
Also democracy and socialism are NOT opposites. I think people need to better understand the terms they throw around so freely.
- Socialism is an economic and political theory based on public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources
- Democracy is a political form of government where governing power is derived from the people
Also pompous windbags are going to be pompous windbags whether they are communist or not. Greedy pompous windbags are dangerous to the country whether they are communist, capitalist, or any other -ist you can think of. (Communistic isn't a word.) Bad leaders, tyrants, and despots have existed far longer than the ideas of socialism or communism.
Noose, you're describing more so of the way it's been for years via a democracy where more power to the people, not the government...(the way it should be here in America) elsewhere...let others live how they want, you know I'm all for that...unless it effects us some how, but here we should ALWAYS live the way the forefathers wrote it...and Obama even wanted at one point to change that which I also have a problem with(no president before despite party wanted to alter the constitution so what the hell?)
Currently with how Obama feels about a lot of things, is the opposite...socialism is when governments have more power then the people and they give everyone "everything equal" which if you think about it is bad because there are those who work harder that aren't getting anything above someone else who may be lazy, yet getting the same benefits as they are....that is not power in the people's hands, that's government controlled power... Socialism is the government giving everyone the same thing, everyone is equal...that's what Obama wants for the USA...free healthcare to everyone ohh goody, sounds great right? But it's quality, not quantity....there's a lot of trade offs with that and I don't know about you but I personally do not want to be paying for some bum that chooses not to work getting free hospital treatment coming out of my tax dollars nor do I wish to pay for some sluts abortion should she accidentally get knocked up...
@luna, definitely see what you're saying to that other guy but just want to say compared to other contries we are very much a democracy...sure we vote for those in power but it's US that have the power to do so...you have to remember man in other countries people don't even have that much power....they just are either brainwashed into obeying a dictactor or controlled by fear, example in Cuba if you speak out against Castro you will die for it...same as it was when Saddam was in power and anywhere else that has a communist, dictactor like system...
Now some argue we may not have the "perfect" democracy, perhaps nobody does...but a hell of a lot better then other places lol...
" @Sylver said:Thank you! and here is the best way to describe the differences between capitalism and socialism, capitalism is socialism for the rich.America isn't a true democracy. It's a representative republic. We elect leaders to make decision for us therefore we are not a democracy, although we have democratic ideals." There are so many things I could say on this thread... so many MEAN things...but I'd probably get in trouble some how, so I'll keep it vague. All I have to say is that America is a DEMOCRACY and so our leaders should be working for the good of the DEMOCRACY. If they like being SOCIALISTIC they can go to a SOCIALISTIC COUNTRY and ruin that country's chances of prosperity there. We have enough pompous windbags that make alot of eloquant and pretty speeches, but don't have any idea how to help the common people...I say the less of them the better. We need people in office who genuinly want to promote the good of the people, not their own paycheck or freakin' communistic ideas. "
Also democracy and socialism are NOT opposites. I think people need to better understand the terms they throw around so freely.
- Socialism is an economic and political theory based on public or common ownership and cooperative management of the means of production and allocation of resources
- Democracy is a political form of government where governing power is derived from the people Also pompous windbags are going to be pompous windbags whether they are communist or not. Greedy pompous windbags are dangerous to the country whether they are communist, capitalist, or any other -ist you can think of. (Communistic isn't a word.) Bad leaders, tyrants, and despots have existed far longer than the ideas of socialism or communism. "
" Noose, you're describing more so of the way it's been for years via a democracy where more power to the people, not the government... Currently with how Obama feels about a lot of things, is the opposite...socialism is when governments have more power then the people and they give everyone "everything equal" which if you think about it is bad because there are those who work harder that aren't getting anything above someone else who may be lazy, yet getting the same benefits as they are....that is not power in the people's hands, that's government controlled power... Socialism is the government giving everyone the same thing, everyone is equal...that's what Obama wants for the USA...free healthcare to everyone ohh goody, sounds great right? But it's quality, not quantity....there's a lot of trade offs with that and I don't know about you but I personally do not want to be paying for some bum that chooses not to work getting free hospital treatment coming out of my tax dollars nor do I wish to pay for some sluts abortion should she accidentally get knocked up... @luna, compared to other contries we are very much a democracy...sure we vote for those in power but it's US that have the power to do so...you have to remember man in other countries people don't even have that much power....they just are either brainwashed into obeying a dictactor or controlled by fear, example in Cuba if you speak out against Castro you will die for it...same as it was when Saddam was in power and anywhere else that has a communist, dictactor like system... Now some argue we may not have the "perfect" democracy, perhaps nobody does...but a hell of a lot better then other places lol... "I done arguing with an ignorant proletariat, just keep living the american dream of keeping the rich on top and the rest of us underneath their feet.
There you go again connecting communism and dictators. Not all dictators or tyrants are communist, in fact in the history of the world most aren't. Also not all communists/socialists are dictators.
" @MKF30: There is no such thing as compared to other countries. Either you fit the description or you don't. We were based on democratic ideals, but in a true democracy every citizen votes on every issue that is literally impossible. To say we are a democracy is to say that every citizen has a vote in every issue. This clearly isn't true. We are not a democracy. We are a representative republic. Look up the United States on any database. Nowhere will it tell you that we are a true democracy. Democracy is a word, it is meant to describe something. Just because we fit the word better than others doesn't mean we can say we are one. That's like saying a horse is a deer because it's mor elike a deer than a hippo or a cheetah. There you go again connecting communism and dictators. Not all dictators or tyrants are communist, in fact in the history of the world most aren't. Also not all communists/socialists are dictators. "Dude this guys lack of understanding is laughable, I mean he can't even differentiate economic systems from forms of government.
Noose...typical noob post lol, ahh the classic name calling...well it's like I always say, those who insist on flaming are the in fact ignorant fools that can't even support a mature debate...fail....it's not my fault you're in denial guy then you wonder why others see you coming off as an Obama lover...
Actually I can and clearly you missed the point but again, I suppose blind loyalty does that...so yeah. Obviously you don't have a clue what I'm talking about or are simply in denial..which ever it is at this point is irrelevant anyway, either way you don't get it...
@luna, ok few things I NEVER said communism and Dictactors are the same thing...just so you know. I said dictactor, communist etc. A comma means you're referring to separate things via a sentence, not the same exact word....so not sure how or why you thought that. I never did I say once they're all the same but rather that they are all very different then the USA. That's a fact nobody can deny...
Secondly dude, we are one...the people get a say in important factors by voting for those who control it, far more then other countries so yes I will say that...compare USA to say I don't know Cuba or China for a second, or various parts of Europe that are socialist then tell me honestly they have MORE options then we do via power? I'm all ears but good luck with that...
Do people in USA have power to vote? Yes....Are we denied freedom of speech and freedom to vote for whoever we want to? No. What? Dude, what are you talking about not having a hand in important issues....of course we do....had we not elected Obama via OUR votes, he wouldn't be able to do what he's doing now....don't you see, we(the people) give the elected officials the power to do so by voting for them....that's the power we have which again is a hell of a lot more then other countries in the world.
I am not going over the comparing thing again. it's a fallacy.
I merely said we don't all personally vote on each issue, because der dah der.....we don't. We elect representatives....hence REPRESENTATIVE REPUBLIC, not democracy.
" @TheNooseIsLoose: To me it's understandable. These a common misconceptions that the ordinary American believes are true. I don't want to alienate anyone just reveal the truth. "I'm with you there man.
Not trying to sway anyone, just posting my views(which I'm firm on) like anyone else...I'm not the type to force my views onto someone else....but I do have a problem with name calling, flaming etc(not referring to you here)
Well, we can just agree to disagree then it's all good. I don't hate you or anything, but I do happen to feel very differently then you in some cases politically. Well, yeah but I'm saying that's just because of how our system works...there are places out there where people have absolutely no power to do anything...is what I'm saying. You almost sound like we have nothing or can't do anything because we can't vote "directly" dude, we'd have anarchy if that was an option...ok, so let's say instead of having trials or let's say buying something(for example here) we'd just vote for it and see what the tally results are?
Sounds a bit broken to me....I know we're a republic(that's not what I'm denying lol) I'm saying our ways are of a basic democracy, we vote for what we want(but not "every little thing directly") you will find that no where...
"Only thing I called you was ignorant, a proletariat is only what all us worker bees are. And please stop just making up you views as you go and actually read a book or something. You confuse socialism with authoritarian communism( authoritarian being the operative word there) and socialism can still be a meritocracy. And just cause I want to live in a world where there's less value place on wealth doesn't make me a loyalist(of what by the way) it makes me an idealist, and I'm fine with that.Noose...typical noob post lol, ahh the classic name calling...well it's like I always say, those who insist on flaming are the in fact ignorant fools that can't even support a mature debate...fail....it's not my fault you're in denial guy then you wonder why others see you coming off as an Obama lover...
"
Actually I can and clearly you missed the point but again, I suppose blind loyalty does that...so yeah. Obviously you don't have a clue what I'm talking about or are simply in denial..which ever it is at this point is irrelevant anyway, either way you don't get it...
@luna, ok few things I NEVER said communism and Dictactors are the same thing...just so you know. I said dictactor, communist etc. A comma means you're referring to separate things via a sentence, not the same exact word....so not sure how or why you thought that. I never did I say once they're all the same but rather that they are all very different then the USA. That's a fact nobody can deny...
Secondly dude, we are one...the people get a say in important factors by voting for those who control it, far more then other countries so yes I will say that...compare USA to say I don't know Cuba or China for a second, or various parts of Europe that are socialist then tell me honestly they have MORE options then we do via power? I'm all ears but good luck with that...
Do people in USA have power to vote? Yes....Are we denied freedom of speech and freedom to vote for whoever we want to? No. What? Dude, what are you talking about not having a hand in important issues....of course we do....had we not elected Obama via OUR votes, he wouldn't be able to do what he's doing now....don't you see, we(the people) give the elected officials the power to do so by voting for them....that's the power we have which again is a hell of a lot more then other countries in the world.
BTW you are a conservative right?
That's a little ironic since you're using proletariat since that's what my point was about concerning the working middle class...then I'm really shocked you can't see my point...with the middle class(being the hard workers) *whistles* and I don't know what you're talking about or reading but one, I'm not "making up views" I'm using facts of what the words mean. Secondly, I was referring to you calling me ignorant just for disagreeing with you instead of actually posting a valid, mature argument... you had quoted luna and attempted to mock me with that post but whatever....
I wasn't referring to you being loyal to anyone in that sense, but rather seeing past your own beliefs. I can see past mine, it doesn't make me ignorant I just wish to live in a world or in this case country that offers everyone fair game and not have big brother give the same benefits to a lazy bum living off my hard earned money....
Sure, we all must pay taxes but my point is would you rather it go to older people on their way out who actually need it or a bum who chooses to live off welfare the rest of their life?
@nightthrasher, yes I know that, more or less all are equal but the problem with that is it limits those who want to earn more for themselves...Worker A works harder, longer then Worker B yet both get the "same benefits" not right IMO.... if you feel different, that's fine I can respectfully disagree...
I'm actually independant that tends to sway conservative(sometimes) I'm more in the middle, there are very few things I agree with concerning liberals or democrats but then also for some republicans...with war, abortion, taxes list goes on. I kind of believe in my own things which only certain politicians(despite party believe in)
No matter who Pres we are f@cked for the next ten years.
@MKF30: I never mentioned anything about us not having anything lol. I am simply a stickler for using correct terms to identify things. If something is a democracy I want it called a democracy, if it isn't I don't. I said multiple times that it's a Representative Republic, which by definition means there is indeed a great deal of freedom. i would merely prefer it called what it is, and have people understand the differences, and similarities.
I've also had tons of friends who lived in various parts of Europe who also tell me how life is over there compared to here...so it's not like I'm just making anything up, then with respect you must not live in America then since I know how life is here pretty well...and what we're used to.
@Lunacyde said:
" @MKF30: I don't feel like I even espoused any of my views. I merely tried to clear up misconceptions about the topic. If I told you what my political views were then I'll gladly listen as you tell me exactly what I believe :) I have no problem with you....I enjoy some stimulating debate between people who disagree. I disagree based on facts, not my personal opinion. Personally I don't like Obama....never have, but then again i didn't like McCain either. "
Yeah I believe you said you're in the middle or a democrat? I forget(I may be confusing you with someone else since it's been a little while since I've been on here of late) most people will disagree due to personal opinion/bias to some degree, I mean they're all liars, corrupt etc, etc but at the same time I just feel there's the lesser of two evils at times you know? Where fact comes into play. I'm sure man, but just saying the way you worded it or the way it sounded from an opposing view. No biggy, I know what you're saying.
Personally, although I was for McCain a little more then Obama I wasn't his #1 fan...personally I was more for Romney and Rudy(Rudy mainly being as how well he handled 9/11 here in NYC and was a great mayor, crime was down, taxes, etc) where I live...McCain was for things I also didn't agree with as well as Obama(just different things) I just merely want people to know the difference between USA and Socialist countries and why we shouldn't change from the Constitution we've lived with forever...sure we disagree as a country at times but that's just the thing, the right to disagree, the freedom of speech...I wouldn't want to be anywhere else ;)
I hear ya, but would hope you're not afraid of what others think for saying that....when I was 18 and registered to vote, I immediately registered as an independent instead of blindly following a side for whatever reason way back...you know? Most kids in my classes were either for Gore or Bush like right off the bat(most were for Gore) but then I live and come from NYC so...you won't see anything outside of democrats as the majority here(except Staten Island) the rest of the city and state is very left however...
Ah, I see what you're saying it's good to use just facts with certain things or if you want to back something up but keep in mind, your opinion and personal beliefs are just as important concerning an issue like this....if not for how you feel then you wouldn't care at all lol you know what I mean? I detect you care to some degree otherwise you would most likely avoid these topics. Just saying dude, you have the right to voice your opinion...who cares what others think? I used to but honestly don't anymore...if someone agrees with me, they do...if not, they don't lol..I used to worry so much about that but what will happen? World isn't going to end right? lol
" @noose, I have a perfect understanding of it so either you're misunderstanding me or you're being biased here but you should know...I've studied politics in school and am well aware of the difference....that wasn't a biased statement, but a realistic one...perhaps you should look more into what Obamacare will offer since you don't sound very familiar with that....part of his plan is others will pay for some random person's abortions...that's not good.Well this is just going nowhere fast and I don't want to debate you over the free abortion thing cause I don't have a vagina, so I'm just going to bow out with as little dignity as I have left. Oh and I am American.
I've also had tons of friends who lived in various parts of Europe who also tell me how life is over there compared to here...so it's not like I'm just making anything up, then with respect you must not live in America then since I know how life is here pretty well...and what we're used to.
@Lunacyde said:Yeah I believe you said you're in the middle or a democrat? I forget(I may be confusing you with someone else since it's been a little while since I've been on here of late) most people will disagree due to personal opinion/bias to some degree, I mean they're all liars, corrupt etc, etc but at the same time I just feel there's the lesser of two evils at times you know? Where fact comes into play. I'm sure man, but just saying the way you worded it or the way it sounded from an opposing view. No biggy, I know what you're saying. Personally, although I was for McCain a little more then Obama I wasn't his #1 fan...personally I was more for Romney and Rudy(Rudy mainly being as how well he handled 9/11 here in NYC and was a great mayor, crime was down, taxes, etc) where I live...McCain was for things I also didn't agree with as well as Obama(just different things) I just merely want people to know the difference between USA and Socialist countries and why we shouldn't change from the Constitution we've lived with forever...sure we disagree as a country at times but that's just the thing, the right to disagree, the freedom of speech...I wouldn't want to be anywhere else ;) "" @MKF30: I don't feel like I even espoused any of my views. I merely tried to clear up misconceptions about the topic. If I told you what my political views were then I'll gladly listen as you tell me exactly what I believe :) I have no problem with you....I enjoy some stimulating debate between people who disagree. I disagree based on facts, not my personal opinion. Personally I don't like Obama....never have, but then again i didn't like McCain either. "
Unless he does something very unreasonable that shouldn't pass in the eyes of everyone, I think he'll be elected again. It also depends on who's running on the Republican side as well beside Sarah Palin.
MKF30 is not a proletarian. He is not a cog in the regime.
He is a talented indivdual, being stifled by a Marxist-wannabe administration that is only interested in taking his tax dollars and giving to people who has no interest in working.
" @Duo_forbidden: Those who think Obama is bad for the country need not look at Sarah Palin for answers. She knows nothing of foreign policy or economics. "
At the time of their respective campaigns, Palin actually knew a lot more about economics.
She was running a state. Obama had never run anything.
he won't be. America has gotten past that whole "change"-hysteria thing and will elect someone else. Whether that someone else will be a good candidate, who knows? I lost faith in the political system a while ago.
"he won't be. America has gotten past that whole "change"-hysteria thing and will elect someone else. Whether that someone else will be a good candidate, who knows? I lost faith in the political system a while ago."
That "change" he spoke about was Socialism. All the Independents who voted for him didn't know that. Now they know and can't stand him. Without the Independents in the last election, he would have been lucky to get 20% of the vote.
If Elmer Fudd ran against him in the next election, Elmer would win (because of his great Ivy-League credentials). Only kidding, but the fact of the matter is, the minority of the American people who still like Obama have to defend him constantly. They must be getting pretty tired.
@Roxanne Starr: I agree
And to clarify myself from my earlier statement, I don't like socialism when it leans closer to communism. And yes, America is not a true democracy (a republic democracy) but it still holds the idea that the people should decide. I think the system is broken in that we have people voting for us of whom half don't even give a crap. Politicians (for the most part) vote for things that will affect them well, not how it could help the people best. Politicians in nice houses with their health care and all other expenses forever covered don't have the same understanding (for the most part) of a middle-class worker of a self owned business. I'm not extreamly educated in the deepest kinds of politics but I think we need to become more of a republic where the people vote for what happens to them. No one in Washington should have the power to make people pay for universal health care or anything large like that. People should be able to decide for themselves.
I'm not against government. We need it. But it's become too big, especially in the lives of the people. We're creating problems for ourselves. JFK and Regan were great presidents who understood this. We need more people like them.
And, to be honest, I don't think socialism would be bad. Not if we had a perfect world. The basic underlying principle is that everyone helps each other and finances are spread around. Now that wouldn't be bad, it's just that not everyone is going to work. No one's perfect and alot of people are either too lazy to work or don't give a crap about others. And when someone wants to introduce socialism, sometimes more control (or more rewards for those who won't work) is intoduced as well.... that's when government gets too big. Like I said...I'm not against it...but let's face it, it requires too much work on everyone's part and not everyone would want to work.
And the over-use of control usually leads to communistic ideas. Not always...but sometimes. I think instead of moving in the direction of that, we should make it more republic-like...more decisions should be made by the people.
" @TheNooseIsLoose:I know your secret, Roxanne! You're really a reincarnated Ayn Rand!
MKF30 is not a proletarian. He is not a cog in the regime.
He is a talented indivdual, being stifled by a Marxist-wannabe administration that is only interested in taking his tax dollars and giving to people who has no interest in working. "
BTW... Those who are mad at Obama for being ineffective need to look at the Republican party. During the last year they have used the fillibuster to...
1. Stop Healthcare reform to the point that we not only lose a public option, which would definitely lower healthcare costs and reduce the cost of the bill. But also, water down what was initially a very good bill. If you truly want to lower the costs of healthcare then why not give the market power to the people themselves? Who better to drive the market then the consumers themselves?
2. Eradicate Immigration Reform. Sen. Lindsay Graham (R) and Sen. McCain (R), both lobbeyed for Immigration Reform during the Bush Administration, but when it comes time to actually do something, and they have a president who actually wants to do something, now all of a sudden they want fences and deportation. Talk about the other side of the coin.
3. Water down Wall-street Reform. Bailouts, bailouts, bailouts, Republicans are so sick of bailouts that they effectively block Wall-street Reform until recent weeks. The Dodd Bill was a thousand times stronger before than it is now, what happened? I'll tell you what happened, filibuster, that's what happened. The Republicans blocked Wall-street Reform on the basis that it would hurt the "free market" when the whole "less regulation" thing that the Bush Administration implanted nearly brought this country to a halt.
4. Speaking of which... The Recovery Act! Wow wouldn't have been nice to have an actual "Jobs Bill" in The Recovery Act? Republicans can share the blame for this with the "Blue Dog Democrats". But man, to actually have something create jobs and stop the bleeding would have been nice. What we actually got was a bill that put a bandage over a bullet wound without taking out the bullet.
That's just Four of the things the Republicans have filibustered out of the year. They have filibustered more than any other Senate in history. Ask yourself can a President bring "HOPE" and "CHANGE" by himself?
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