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#1 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23804 posts) - - Show Bio

Now that Lebron has gotten a championship and has played well when it mattered where do you rank LBJ? I say he is in the top 15 atleast.

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#2 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

For what it's worth, LeBron has always played 'well' when it mattered, the myth about him being a "choker" is ridiculous. That said, he is top 15 and his career has a ways to go yet.

#3 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
yeah Lebron is top 15... we shall see how many more Championships he wins.
#4 Posted by _slim_ (13075 posts) - - Show Bio

He's top 15, maybe somewhere between 15 -12, but he's not top 10.

Not yet.

#5 Edited by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
I have him exactly at #15 at the moment. His peak can be compared with the greatest ever (it's Top-10), but he doesn't have the longevity to be placed ahead of the guys I have over him right now.
#6 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23804 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xanni15: For what it's worth, LeBron has always played 'well' when it mattered

I guess him shooting 34%vs Spurs in the finals is a myth? Or I guess him averaging 18 points in the finals vs Dallas is not choking right?

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#7 Edited by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xanni15 said:

For what it's worth, LeBron has always played 'well' when it mattered, the myth about him being a "choker" is ridiculous.

No he hasn't. The whole choking thing is overblown, as he has been above league average in clutch situations over the years, but just last year in the Finals; the Mavericks' defence completely shook him, and he under-performed on a pretty big level. Even Wade going nuclear due to the defensive strategy focusing on James couldn't get them to win the series.
#8 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@Xanni15: For what it's worth, LeBron has always played 'well' when it mattered

I guess him shooting 34%vs Spurs in the finals is a myth? Or I guess him averaging 18 points in the finals vs Dallas is not choking right?

Do you really want to get into this? Name me one teammate of LeBron's on that Cavs team that was let's say... Above average? LeBron single-handedly carried most likely the worst team to make it to the finals ever. The Spurs (best defensive team in the league) triple teamed him throughout games, nobody else stepped up. So, it's a myth that HE didn't step up when it matter.

Oh, Dallas. Admittedly he didn't play up to his standards, that's why I agreed that he only played "well" but he didn't choke. The first two games he played good (2 points on 53.1 percent), then just like other superstars he struggled against Dallas' defense. Also, one performance isn't indicative of a pattern.

#9 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sexy Merc said:

@Xanni15 said:

For what it's worth, LeBron has always played 'well' when it mattered, the myth about him being a "choker" is ridiculous.

No he hasn't. The whole choking thing is overblown, as he has been above league average in clutch situations over the years, but just last year in the Finals; the Mavericks' defence completely shook him, and he under-performed on a pretty big level. Even Wade going nuclear due to the defensive strategy focusing on James couldn't get them to win the series.

First, LeBron wasn't the only superstar who was limited by the Dallas defense (which is underrated), secondly he still played well. You can blame it all on LeBron, I just feel like he's spoiled everyone so they just expect him to play like the GOAT every single game, which he usually does. Your second comment only serves to reinforce that it wasn't LeBron's fault, Wade went off and the Heat just didn't have enough as a team to win.

#10 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (20120 posts) - - Show Bio

Top 20.

He's about #15 or #14.

"Be water my friend"

#11 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23804 posts) - - Show Bio
Do you really want to get into this? Name me one teammate of LeBron's on that Cavs team that was let's say... Above average? LeBron single-handedly carried most likely the worst team to make it to the finals ever. The Spurs (best defensive team in the league) triple teamed him throughout games, nobody else stepped up. So, it's a myth that HE didn't step up when it matter.

That still should not have stopped him from getting your points you want to call yourself the chosen one play like it. Heck the Pistons were a great defensive team to albeit not as good as Spurs to good nonetheless and he played great vs them so saying he played bad because his team was garbage is a poor excuse

Oh, Dallas. Admittedly he didn't play up to his standards, that's why I agreed that he only played "well" but he didn't choke. The first two games he played good (2 points on 53.1 percent), then just like other superstars he struggled against Dallas' defense. Also, one performance isn't indicative of a pattern.

He played awefull in the finals he only averaged 18 points and shot 33% percent from the field he was awefull in the 4 quarter that is inexcusable for anyway to play the poorly explacialy "The King"

Your second comment only serves to reinforce that it wasn't LeBron's fault, Wade went off and the Heat just didn't have enough as ateam to win.

this is very contradicting if you claim he played bad because of the Dallas defense why did Wade get his and he did not? because he chocked plain and simple.

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#12 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Do you really want to get into this? Name me one teammate of LeBron's on that Cavs team that was let's say... Above average? LeBron single-handedly carried most likely the worst team to make it to the finals ever. The Spurs (best defensive team in the league) triple teamed him throughout games, nobody else stepped up. So, it's a myth that HE didn't step up when it matter.

That still should not have stopped him from getting your points you want to call yourself the chosen one play like it. Heck the Pistons were a great defensive team to albeit not as good as Spurs to good nonetheless and he played great vs them so saying he played bad because his team was garbage is a poor excuse

Again, I think you're expecting way too much out of him. It's a team game, the guy did so much by carrying the team that far. I don't even think they make it there if not for the injuries other teams suffered. He can't go 1 on 5. And on the Pistons, didn't he have to score 29 of his teams last 30 points for them to win?

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

Oh, Dallas. Admittedly he didn't play up to his standards, that's why I agreed that he only played "well" but he didn't choke. The first two games he played good (2 points on 53.1 percent), then just like other superstars he struggled against Dallas' defense. Also, one performance isn't indicative of a pattern.

He played awefull in the finals he only averaged 18 points and shot 33% percent from the field he was awefull in the 4 quarter that is inexcusable for anyway to play the poorly explacialy "The King"

Indeed, his scoring and shooting % went down, he didn't play like himself. What about his other stats? You're just ragging on him because of his nicknames.

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

this is very contradicting if you claim he played bad because of the Dallas defense why did Wade get his and he did not? because he chocked plain and simple.

As someone else pointed out, Dallas was focused on stopping LeBron, but Wade also should get credit for playing great. LeBron didn't play horribly but he didn't play amazingly either. I don't see how that's choking.

#13 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
I just wonder how close can Lebron get to Jordan's count in terms of Number of Championships.
#14 Posted by pooty (11009 posts) - - Show Bio

@King Saturn: @dccomicsrule2011: @Xanni15: and who are these 14 or so other people that are better? Are we including people like Wilt and bill russell? The game was totally different back then and the competition not nearly as steep. if you go from the "modern" era (since magic/bird) i'd say he's top 10.

#15 Edited by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@King Saturn: @dccomicsrule2011: @Xanni15: and who are these 14 or so other people that are better? Are we including people like Wilt and bill russell? The game was totally different back then and the competition not nearly as steep. if you go from the "modern" era (since magic/bird) i'd say he's top 10.

I completely agree with you about Russell and Wilt. If going by modern era then I would argue he's top 5-6 .

#16 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty said:

@King Saturn: @dccomicsrule2011: @Xanni15: and who are these 14 or so other people that are better? Are we including people like Wilt and bill russell? The game was totally different back then and the competition not nearly as steep. if you go from the "modern" era (since magic/bird) i'd say he's top 10.

well if we are going by only modern players then yeah Lebron would be a lot higher possibly Top 8... the problem is that even though Wilt and Russell did play in an Era of Basketball that was much different and in some cases weaker than the game of the modern day... it would not be fair to not recognize them for playing during those days still... I mean it aint their fault they existed in a time that Basketball on the Professional level was not as good all around as it is in the modern day... they played and dominated in a weaker era but it's not like they could help that either. 
#17 Posted by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xanni15 said:

@Sexy Merc said:

@Xanni15 said:

For what it's worth, LeBron has always played 'well' when it mattered, the myth about him being a "choker" is ridiculous.

No he hasn't. The whole choking thing is overblown, as he has been above league average in clutch situations over the years, but just last year in the Finals; the Mavericks' defence completely shook him, and he under-performed on a pretty big level. Even Wade going nuclear due to the defensive strategy focusing on James couldn't get them to win the series.

First, LeBron wasn't the only superstar who was limited by the Dallas defense (which is underrated), secondly he still played well. You can blame it all on LeBron, I just feel like he's spoiled everyone so they just expect him to play like the GOAT every single game, which he usually does. Your second comment only serves to reinforce that it wasn't LeBron's fault, Wade went off and the Heat just didn't have enough as a team to win.

What are you exactly using to define "well?" He played below his average level, and using a slightly adjusted regression model, no player on the Heat had a bigger drop-off from the past 3 series compared to the Finals, or their regular season average. Wade played above average (the Dallas defence wasn't limiting him on most possessions because their target was James, and Wade had no problem in the cutting/passing/driving lanes, while James clearly did), and Bosh played around his average level. James was in fact more limited than the other two stars on their team, and a big part of that was due to his relatively weak off-ball game (compared to Nowitzki, when he wasn't scoring well, he could still impact the game more than James on an off-shooting night during the Finals). 
 
You also should keep in mind that Nowitzki suffered the finger injury and played with a fever during the series against the Heat. And still, his impact was huge. A completely different thing from James, who was forced to show his game off the ball and failed. And you can even see that in this season, the Heat/James realized it, and they worked on that. You see James moving better without the ball, making the offence more fluid (like in the 2012 Finals).
 
And yes, other superstars, like Bryant and Westbrook, were clearly affected by the defence as well. They both under-performed, just like James. James was definitely better defensively than Bryant in their respective series with the Mavericks, when it was clear he wasn't mobile enough to help or recover (his off-ball defence is pretty bad), and same with Westbrook.
 
Nowitzki for example had 16.6 game score in 40 minutes, while James had 13.7 in 43 minutes. During the minutes with Nowitzki on the court, the Mavericks were at +8.5, and -29.1 in the finals. The Heat with James were at -8.4, and without James, they were at +39.4. When both were on the court, the Mavericks were winning by +10.3. Nowitzki even beats out James with the ball in the series (which shouldn't be happening), but he blows him away in the part without the ball (which was the difference in this series, as if James had a better off-ball game, he would have been able to impact the game more). So, what exactly did James do in the Finals that constitutes to a playing level of "well."
 
So yes, the Heat as a team lost to the Mavericks as a team. I'm not saying LeBron James lost to the Mavericks, but he is the best player on the team and is expected to put his players in a position to succeed (which he did relatively well), but due to his weak off-ball game, he didn't produce enough at an efficient rate to elevate his play for the sake of his team in the context of a 5-on-5 game.
#18 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sexy Merc said:
@Xanni15 said:

@Sexy Merc said:

@Xanni15 said:

For what it's worth, LeBron has always played 'well' when it mattered, the myth about him being a "choker" is ridiculous.

No he hasn't. The whole choking thing is overblown, as he has been above league average in clutch situations over the years, but just last year in the Finals; the Mavericks' defence completely shook him, and he under-performed on a pretty big level. Even Wade going nuclear due to the defensive strategy focusing on James couldn't get them to win the series.

First, LeBron wasn't the only superstar who was limited by the Dallas defense (which is underrated), secondly he still played well. You can blame it all on LeBron, I just feel like he's spoiled everyone so they just expect him to play like the GOAT every single game, which he usually does. Your second comment only serves to reinforce that it wasn't LeBron's fault, Wade went off and the Heat just didn't have enough as a team to win.

What are you exactly using to define "well?" He played below his average level, and using a slightly adjusted regression model, no player on the Heat had a bigger drop-off from the past 3 series compared to the Finals, or their regular season average. Wade played above average (the Dallas defence wasn't limiting him on most possessions because their target was James, and Wade had no problem in the cutting/passing/driving lanes, while James clearly did), and Bosh played around his average level. James was in fact more limited than the other two stars on their team, and a big part of that was due to his relatively weak off-ball game (compared to Nowitzki, when he wasn't scoring well, he could still impact the game more than James on an off-shooting night during the Finals). 
 
You also should keep in mind that Nowitzki suffered the finger injury and played with a fever during the series against the Heat. And still, his impact was huge. A completely different thing from James, who was forced to show his game off the ball and failed. And you can even see that in this season, the Heat/James realized it, and they worked on that. You see James moving better without the ball, making the offence more fluid (like in the 2012 Finals).
 
And yes, other superstars, like Bryant and Westbrook, were clearly affected by the defence as well. They both under-performed, just like James. James was definitely better defensively than Bryant in their respective series with the Mavericks, when it was clear he wasn't mobile enough to help or recover (his off-ball defence is pretty bad), and same with Westbrook.
 
Nowitzki for example had 16.6 game score in 40 minutes, while James had 13.7 in 43 minutes. During the minutes with Nowitzki on the court, the Mavericks were at +8.5, and -29.1 in the finals. The Heat with James were at -8.4, and without James, they were at +39.4. When both were on the court, the Mavericks were winning by +10.3. Nowitzki even beats out James with the ball in the series (which shouldn't be happening), but he blows him away in the part without the ball (which was the difference in this series, as if James had a better off-ball game, he would have been able to impact the game more). So, what exactly did James do in the Finals that constitutes to a playing level of "well."
 
So yes, the Heat as a team lost to the Mavericks as a team. I'm not saying LeBron James lost to the Mavericks, but he is the best player on the team and is expected to put his players in a position to succeed (which he did relatively well), but due to his weak off-ball game, he didn't produce enough at an efficient rate to elevate his play for the sake of his team in the context of a 5-on-5 game.
wow... you seemed very fired up today. 
I don't think I ever seen you post something this long before. 
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#19 Posted by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@pooty
 
Even if we use that generation bias, and take players since the '80s (so, I take it you're excluding Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who had his best years in the '70s), he still wouldn't be Top-10:
 
1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Tim Duncan
5) Shaquille O'Neal
6) Hakeem Olajuwon
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Kobe Bryant
9) Karl Malone
10) Dirk Nowitzki
(I can see the argument for James above Nowitzki if you heavily value peak above all, but the longevity advantage is still there)
#20 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sexy Merc said:
@pooty
 
Even if we use that generation bias, and take players since the '80s (so, I take it you're excluding Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who had his best years in the '70s), he still wouldn't be Top-10:
 
1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Tim Duncan
5) Shaquille O'Neal
6) Hakeem Olajuwon
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Kobe Bryant
9) Karl Malone
10) Dirk Nowitzki
(I can see the argument for James above Nowitzki if you heavily value peak above all, but the longevity advantage is still there)
You sure about Garnett and Malone ? I mean they are Great but Lebron might be slightly better than them... 
#21 Posted by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
@Sexy Merc said:
@pooty
 
Even if we use that generation bias, and take players since the '80s (so, I take it you're excluding Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who had his best years in the '70s), he still wouldn't be Top-10:
 
1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Tim Duncan
5) Shaquille O'Neal
6) Hakeem Olajuwon
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Kobe Bryant
9) Karl Malone
10) Dirk Nowitzki
(I can see the argument for James above Nowitzki if you heavily value peak above all, but the longevity advantage is still there)
You sure about Garnett and Malone ? I mean they are Great but Lebron might be slightly better than them... 
Yeah, KG seems to get underrated a lot on all-time lists because the management in Minnesota was really bad, but he was playing at an incredible level (was close to Duncan from 2000-2004 (where their peaks were) - Duncan was just more consistent over their careers - and ever since he came to Boston, he was better than Duncan. He has 12 All-NBA type seasons (I'm not talking about the accolade, but his playing level) and a comparable peak to LeBron James, who has 8 All-NBA seasons so far. Malone obviously has great longevity as well (around 13 All-NBA level seasons, but his peak was definitely inferior to James). If James plays at a constant rate without a significant decline over the next few years, he will surpass them, but he just doesn't have the longevity right now.
#22 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sexy Merc said:
@King Saturn said:
@Sexy Merc said:
@pooty
 
Even if we use that generation bias, and take players since the '80s (so, I take it you're excluding Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who had his best years in the '70s), he still wouldn't be Top-10:
 
1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Tim Duncan
5) Shaquille O'Neal
6) Hakeem Olajuwon
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Kobe Bryant
9) Karl Malone
10) Dirk Nowitzki
(I can see the argument for James above Nowitzki if you heavily value peak above all, but the longevity advantage is still there)
You sure about Garnett and Malone ? I mean they are Great but Lebron might be slightly better than them... 
Yeah, KG seems to get underrated a lot on all-time lists because the management in Minnesota was really bad, but he was playing at an incredible level (was close to Duncan from 2000-2004 (where their peaks were) - Duncan was just more consistent over their careers - and ever since he came to Boston, he was better than Duncan. He has 12 All-NBA type seasons (I'm not talking about the accolade, but his playing level) and a comparable peak to LeBron James, who has 8 All-NBA seasons so far. Malone obviously has great longevity as well (around 13 All-NBA level seasons, but his peak was definitely inferior to James). If James plays at a constant rate without a significant decline over the next few years, he will surpass them, but he just doesn't have the longevity right now.
Even without the Longevity, I think Lebron is slightly better than KG... I mean KG was great but Lebron is a damn near Triple Double every night... and when the dude is in Full Mode he is good for 30 pts 9 reb 7 ast easy... I aint trying to take away from KG because he was a Beast in his Prime... but this n!gga Lebron might have him by a hair... ( no Pun intended ) 
#23 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sexy Merc said:

What are you exactly using to define "well?" He played below his average level, and using a slightly adjusted regression model, no player on the Heat had a bigger drop-off from the past 3 series compared to the Finals, or their regular season average. Wade played above average (the Dallas defence wasn't limiting him on most possessions because their target was James, and Wade had no problem in the cutting/passing/driving lanes, while James clearly did), and Bosh played around his average level. James was in fact more limited than the other two stars on their team, and a big part of that was due to his relatively weak off-ball game (compared to Nowitzki, when he wasn't scoring well, he could still impact the game more than James on an off-shooting night during the Finals).

I'm defining "well" as decent enough to still win games. I've already admitted LeBron played well below his standards but I don't see how it's choking to shoot a lower percentage and average less points, the man affects the game in more ways than anyone else in history. His assist and rebounds were still there, as was his defense. Clearly he should have played a lot better, and if he had the Heat might blow Dallas out.

@Sexy Merc said:

You also should keep in mind that Nowitzki suffered the finger injury and played with a fever during the series against the Heat. And still, his impact was huge. A completely different thing from James, who was forced to show his game off the ball and failed. And you can even see that in this season, the Heat/James realized it, and they worked on that. You see James moving better without the ball, making the offence more fluid (like in the 2012 Finals).

LeBron like any other player had areas he needed to work on, he has done that. Dirk has always been a sieve on defense. Having a weakness in your game isn't the same as not playing up to your usual level. Dallas saw his weakness and exploited it.

@Sexy Merc said:

And yes, other superstars, like Bryant and Westbrook, were clearly affected by the defence as well. They both under-performed, just like James. James was definitely better defensively than Bryant in their respective series with the Mavericks, when it was clear he wasn't mobile enough to help or recover (his off-ball defence is pretty bad), and same with Westbrook.

We are in agreement here.

@Sexy Merc said:

Nowitzki for example had 16.6 game score in 40 minutes, while James had 13.7 in 43 minutes. During the minutes with Nowitzki on the court, the Mavericks were at +8.5, and -29.1 in the finals. The Heat with James were at -8.4, and without James, they were at +39.4. When both were on the court, the Mavericks were winning by +10.3. Nowitzki even beats out James with the ball in the series (which shouldn't be happening), but he blows him away in the part without the ball (which was the difference in this series, as if James had a better off-ball game, he would have been able to impact the game more). So, what exactly did James do in the Finals that constitutes to a playing level of "well."

I'm not disputing your stats, I just think it's easier for someone like Dirk to have the advantage. Dirk's only job on the Mavs is to score, nothing else. I don't have the stats to back me up but I would wwager that Dirk gave up points comparable to the amount he scored. LeBron has to do everything (exaggerating slightly but I think you know what I mean) for the Heat, score (which he didn't do as well), rebound, defend, get assists, etc. LeBron's stat line for the finals is again below his level, a very lofty standard he set.

@Sexy Merc said:

So yes, the Heat as a team lost to the Mavericks as a team. I'm not saying LeBron James lost to the Mavericks, but he is the best player on the team and is expected to put his players in a position to succeed (which he did relatively well), but due to his weak off-ball game, he didn't produce enough at an efficient rate to elevate his play for the sake of his team in the context of a 5-on-5 game.

Understandable, and I don't disagree with what you said but it all comes back to LeBron's usual level of play. The Heat were so dependent on it that if he had an off game they were most likely losing.

#24 Posted by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
Even without the Longevity, I think Lebron is slightly better than KG... I mean KG was great but Lebron is a damn near Triple Double every night... and when the dude is in Full Mode he is good for 30 pts 9 reb 7 ast easy... I aint trying to take away from KG because he was a Beast in his Prime... but this n!gga Lebron might have him by a hair... ( no Pun intended ) 
KG was pretty close to a triple double threat too though (he had like 27-20-5 games), plus he's one of the all-time great defensive players, and imo, the best help defender of the past era. As a big man, he impacts that end more than James, even though James is better offensively. Both of them led their teams to elite offences and defences, as they're both elite two-way players. He is one of the five greatest big men passers ever, and the way he ran the offence through the high post was great. It's extremely close if you're comparing them at their best, but that's why I think longevity still gives KG the advantage. He was just at that level for a longer period than James so far ...
#25 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sexy Merc said:
@King Saturn said:
Even without the Longevity, I think Lebron is slightly better than KG... I mean KG was great but Lebron is a damn near Triple Double every night... and when the dude is in Full Mode he is good for 30 pts 9 reb 7 ast easy... I aint trying to take away from KG because he was a Beast in his Prime... but this n!gga Lebron might have him by a hair... ( no Pun intended ) 
KG was pretty close to a triple double threat too though (he had like 27-20-5 games), plus he's one of the all-time great defensive players, and imo, the best help defender of the past era. As a big man, he impacts that end more than James, even though James is better offensively. Both of them led their teams to elite offences and defences, as they're both elite two-way players. He is one of the five greatest big men passers ever, and the way he ran the offence through the high post was great. It's extremely close if you're comparing them at their best, but that's why I think longevity still gives KG the advantage. He was just at that level for a longer period than James so far ...
truth... but Lebron leading that crap Cavaliers team to the NBA Finals in 2007 ( even though they got swept by the Spurs ) makes up for his lack of longevity... 
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#26 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sexy Merc said:

@pooty:

Even if we use that generation bias, and take players since the '80s (so, I take it you're excluding Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who had his best years in the '70s), he still wouldn't be Top-10:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Tim Duncan
5) Shaquille O'Neal
6) Hakeem Olajuwon
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Kobe Bryant
9) Karl Malone
10) Dirk Nowitzki (I can see the argument for James above Nowitzki if you heavily value peak above all, but the longevity advantage is still there)

It's a good list, I'm surprised you have Shaq above Hakeem to be honest. I know Shaq at his peak was better but Hakeem in my opinion had the better career. Not to mention Kobe and Wade's contributions.

#27 Posted by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@Xanni15 said:

I'm defining "well" as decent enough to still win games. I've already admitted LeBron played well below his standards.

Ah okay, I was misunderstanding then.
 

Dirk has always been a sieve on defense. 

This is actually as big a myth as LeBron James being a consistent choker. The facts and data show that over the years, he had a positive impact on his team's defence. He didn't have a negative impact on defence like Charles Barkley for example.
 
For a recent example, he effectively shut down Pau Gasol in last year's playoffs. In the 23 minutes when Nowitzki was on the bench, Gasol had 15/9/5, scoring on 57 TS%. He was 7/5/2 per 23 minutes with 45 TS% during the time with Nowitzki on the court. When Nowitzki was on the court and Gasol, the Mavericks outscored the Lakers by 17 per 48 min, but when Nowitzki was off and Gasol on, the Lakers actually outscored the Mavericks badly (by 40 points, per 48 min).
 
He keeps his position against even bigger guys, boxing out in order to secure the rebound for his team (he didn't necessarily catch the ball, especially recently, because the defensive rebounding scheme was supposed to make it possible to have Kidd with the the ball in his hand as soon as possible). Additionally, Nowitzki's offensive skill-set allows his team to play a centre next to him who doesn't need much skills offensively while being just strong defensively (Dampier, Chandler, Haywood). 
 
In 2003, an injured Shawn Bradley and Raef LaFrentz at centre was enough for the 9th best defence in the league. In 2005, Erick Dampier at centre was enough for the 9th best defence in the league. In 2012, Haywood was enough for the 8th best defence (the Mavericks in this season with Nowitzki on the court played better defence than last season with Nowitzki, Nowitzki + Chandler, or Chandler without Nowitzki). The Mavericks as a team played better defence this year than the last, but it's just that they didn't have the offensive pieces around it (and Chandler provided efficient offence with his screens and block outs).
 

Dirk's only job on the Mavs is to score, nothing else.

 
Nowitzki has a bigger job than that. He has to provide spacing for his teammates, which is why they play bad on both ends when he's resting or not playing. Barea, Kidd, Terry, all of their offensive performances declined significantly without Nowitzki on the court. He was also used as a decoy, and is a good post defender, as well as creating offence from the mid-post. He's one of the greatest off-ball players and shooters ever.  His low turnover rate and good passing game (not on James level as a passer obviously) also contribute to his overall impact. So, saying he only scores is undermining his skills.
#28 Posted by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
@Sexy Merc said:
@King Saturn said:
Even without the Longevity, I think Lebron is slightly better than KG... I mean KG was great but Lebron is a damn near Triple Double every night... and when the dude is in Full Mode he is good for 30 pts 9 reb 7 ast easy... I aint trying to take away from KG because he was a Beast in his Prime... but this n!gga Lebron might have him by a hair... ( no Pun intended ) 
KG was pretty close to a triple double threat too though (he had like 27-20-5 games), plus he's one of the all-time great defensive players, and imo, the best help defender of the past era. As a big man, he impacts that end more than James, even though James is better offensively. Both of them led their teams to elite offences and defences, as they're both elite two-way players. He is one of the five greatest big men passers ever, and the way he ran the offence through the high post was great. It's extremely close if you're comparing them at their best, but that's why I think longevity still gives KG the advantage. He was just at that level for a longer period than James so far ...
truth... but Lebron leading that crap Cavaliers team to the NBA Finals in 2007 ( even though they got swept by the Spurs ) makes up for his lack of longevity... [=
That team was pretty below average, but their defence has gotten underrated. Even when James had sub-40% shooting games, they games were very close because of their defence. He was an average defender back then, nowhere near how good he is now. Offensively, it was pretty much all him though on those Cavaliers, so when there was a legit team with a solid defensive strategy (the Eastern Conference in that span and earlier were really bad compared to the West as well), like the Spurs, they got crushed (even though the margin of victory wasn't as high as you'd think if you just looked at how James played from the box-score. 
 
I was more impressed with Garnett carrying the Wolves to the WCF in 2004. In fact, what James did in 2009 and 2010 was a lot more impressive than 2007 imo.
#29 Edited by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sexy Merc said:

@King Saturn said:

@Sexy Merc said:
@King Saturn said:
Even without the Longevity, I think Lebron is slightly better than KG... I mean KG was great but Lebron is a damn near Triple Double every night... and when the dude is in Full Mode he is good for 30 pts 9 reb 7 ast easy... I aint trying to take away from KG because he was a Beast in his Prime... but this n!gga Lebron might have him by a hair... ( no Pun intended ) 
KG was pretty close to a triple double threat too though (he had like 27-20-5 games), plus he's one of the all-time great defensive players, and imo, the best help defender of the past era. As a big man, he impacts that end more than James, even though James is better offensively. Both of them led their teams to elite offences and defences, as they're both elite two-way players. He is one of the five greatest big men passers ever, and the way he ran the offence through the high post was great. It's extremely close if you're comparing them at their best, but that's why I think longevity still gives KG the advantage. He was just at that level for a longer period than James so far ...
truth... but Lebron leading that crap Cavaliers team to the NBA Finals in 2007 ( even though they got swept by the Spurs ) makes up for his lack of longevity... [=
That team was pretty below average, but their defence has gotten underrated. Even when James had sub-40% shooting games, they games were very close because of their defence. He was an average defender back then, nowhere near how good he is now. Offensively, it was pretty much all him though on those Cavaliers, so when there was a legit team with a solid defensive strategy (the Eastern Conference in that span and earlier were really bad compared to the West as well), like the Spurs, they got crushed (even though the margin of victory wasn't as high as you'd think if you just looked at how James played from the box-score. 
 
I was more impressed with Garnett carrying the Wolves to the WCF in 2004. In fact, what James did in 2009 and 2010 was a lot more impressive than 2007 imo.
I can't say that... I mean in 2007, Lebron James had a game against the Pistons where he scored like 25 straight points for his team... I think he had 48 points for the game... when has KG ever had a playoff performance like that ?
#30 Posted by KnightRise (4785 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sexy Merc said:

@pooty:

Even if we use that generation bias, and take players since the '80s (so, I take it you're excluding Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who had his best years in the '70s), he still wouldn't be Top-10:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Tim Duncan
5) Shaquille O'Neal
6) Hakeem Olajuwon
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Kobe Bryant
9) Karl Malone
10) Dirk Nowitzki (I can see the argument for James above Nowitzki if you heavily value peak above all, but the longevity advantage is still there)

A.I. doesn't make your top ten?

#31 Posted by pooty (11009 posts) - - Show Bio

@King Saturn: we can't blame them for playing in a different era, but we have to take it into consideration when placing them in history.

@Sexy Merc: If I have first pick. I have no idea who else will be on my team. I absolutely, 100% of the time, take Lebron over Garnett, Malone and Dirk. Lebron can do everything they can do but he can create shots better then garnett and malone and pass and run the point better then all of them.

#32 Posted by pooty (11009 posts) - - Show Bio

@KnightRise: No A.I does not make the top 20. no rebounds or assist or blocks or no killer defense. I think he is over rated.

#33 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sexy Merc said:

@Xanni15 said:

I'm defining "well" as decent enough to still win games. I've already admitted LeBron played well below his standards.

Ah okay, I was misunderstanding then.

My fault, I should have defined what I meant. :]

@Sexy Merc said:

@Xanni15 said:

Dirk has always been a sieve on defense.

This is actually as big a myth as LeBron James being a consistent choker. The facts and data show that over the years, he had a positive impact on his team's defence. He didn't have a negative impact on defence like Charles Barkley for example.

For a recent example, he effectively shut down Pau Gasol in last year's playoffs. In the 23 minutes when Nowitzki was on the bench, Gasol had 15/9/5, scoring on 57 TS%. He was 7/5/2 per 23 minutes with 45 TS% during the time with Nowitzki on the court. When Nowitzki was on the court and Gasol, the Mavericks outscored the Lakers by 17 per 48 min, but when Nowitzki was off and Gasol on, the Lakers actually outscored the Mavericks badly (by 40 points, per 48 min).

He keeps his position against even bigger guys, boxing out in order to secure the rebound for his team (he didn't necessarily catch the ball, especially recently, because the defensive rebounding scheme was supposed to make it possible to have Kidd with the the ball in his hand as soon as possible). Additionally, Nowitzki's offensive skill-set allows his team to play a centre next to him who doesn't need much skills offensively while being just strong defensively (Dampier, Chandler, Haywood).

In 2003, an injured Shawn Bradley and Raef LaFrentz at centre was enough for the 9th best defence in the league. In 2005, Erick Dampier at centre was enough for the 9th best defence in the league. In 2012, Haywood was enough for the 8th best defence (the Mavericks in this season with Nowitzki on the court played better defence than last season with Nowitzki, Nowitzki + Chandler, or Chandler without Nowitzki). The Mavericks as a team played better defence this year than the last, but it's just that they didn't have the offensive pieces around it (and Chandler provided efficient offence with his screens and block outs).

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The recent stats appear to back you up, but I would caution into giving Dirk a lot of the credit for the Mavs team defense (at least in recent years) as Carlisle is an excellent coach, Dwyane Casey was one of the best assistants in the league, and Chandler or other shot blockers backed Dirk up. Pau last year was effectively the 3rd option on the Lakers, Bryant and Bynum before him. I don't think it's fair to assume that Dirk was the sole reason for Pau struggling.

His rebounding numbers are not what a premier bigman should be getting, not saying that he needs to be Dwight or Love and pull down 13-15 RPG but a double double would be nice.

Unless I'm mistaken, which is certainly possible, the last two portions only enforce that it's the teams defense, and not Dirk's that is the main reason.

@Sexy Merc said:

Dirk's only job on the Mavs is to score, nothing else.


Nowitzki has a bigger job than that. He has to provide spacing for his teammates, which is why they play bad on both ends when he's resting or not playing. Barea, Kidd, Terry, all of their offensive performances declined significantly without Nowitzki on the court. He was also used as a decoy, and is a good post defender, as well as creating offence from the mid-post. He's one of the greatest off-ball players and shooters ever. His low turnover rate and good passing game (not on James level as a passer obviously) also contribute to his overall impact. So, saying he only scores is undermining his skills.

Yes, but why does he provide spacing? Because he's such an amazing scorer who commands double teams. Nobody will leave Dirk because they know he makes a lot of shots even when challenged. Same thing with a lot of other superstars, they make everyone around them better. I was undermining his skills, though. I apologize. His main job, then, is to score. Compare that to LeBron who has to score oer 20 a night, get some assists and easy baskets for others, rebound close to 10 per night, and defend pretty much every position on the floor thorughout a game before shifting onto the opposing teams best offensive player during "crunch time."

#34 Posted by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
I can't say that... I mean in 2007, Lebron James had a game against the Pistons where he scored like 25 straight points for his team... I think he had 48 points for the game... when has KG ever had a playoff performance like that ?
He never had a playoff scoring game that high or efficiently, but KG isn't know for his scoring like James. They do different things. James never anchored a defence like KG or had 26 rebound performances. I think you're focusing on the scoring aspect too much. James is indeed a better scorer than Garnett, but most of his impact comes from defence, rebounding, and passing.
#35 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sexy Merc said:
@King Saturn said:
I can't say that... I mean in 2007, Lebron James had a game against the Pistons where he scored like 25 straight points for his team... I think he had 48 points for the game... when has KG ever had a playoff performance like that ?
He never had a playoff scoring game that high or efficiently, but KG isn't know for his scoring like James. They do different things. James never anchored a defence like KG or had 26 rebound performances. I think you're focusing on the scoring aspect too much. James is indeed a better scorer than Garnett, but most of his impact comes from defence, rebounding, and passing.
James has the all around game though... Lebron can Pass, Rebound and Play Defense... as well as Score at a Very High Level... I just can't see Garnett being ahead of him... don't make sense to me... he never lead a crap team to the Finals like Lebron did... plus Lebron's all around game seems better than Garnett's... 
#36 Posted by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@KnightRise said:

A.I. doesn't make your top ten?

Definitely not. Do you think he was better than those players? I wouldn't put Iverson above guys like Nash, Wade, or Pierce either.
 
@Xanni15 said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The recent stats appear to back you up, but I would caution into giving Dirk a lot of the credit for the Mavs team defense (at least in recent years) as Carlisle is an excellent coach, Dwyane Casey was one of the best assistants in the league, and Chandler or other shot blockers backed Dirk up. Pau last year was effectively the 3rd option on the Lakers, Bryant and Bynum before him. I don't think it's fair to assume that Dirk was the sole reason for Pau struggling.

His rebounding numbers are not what a premier bigman should be getting, not saying that he needs to be Dwight or Love and pull down 13-15 RPG but a double double would be nice.

Unless I'm mistaken, which is certainly possible, the last two portions only enforce that it's the teams defense, and not Dirk's that is the main reason.

Alright, but that data goes back to 2003. Nowitzki had 3 different supporting casts and coaching staffs from 2003 (championship level team), to 2006 (championship level team), to 2011 (championship level team. where Terry was the only similar face from 2006), and his defensive impact throughout those years was consistent. The data shows and by watching the games, that he has been an above average defender for the PF spot, and indeed had a positive impact on his team's defence over the years. He was the constant during that whole span.
 
Gasol struggling was mostly because of Nowitzki. He was the one guarding him in the post in most possessions, and Nowitzki did a better job on Gasol when he had Haywood as his C, than with Chandler (Chandler also got destroyed in this Olympics by Gasol). His rebounding picks up in the playoffs, where he's one of the few player in history (one of the GOAT playoff performers) to average those kinds of numbers. Nowitzki also is playing further away from the basket and gets back on defence as the first guy which helps the overall team defence from preventing easy transition opportunities. Offensive rebounds aren't as important as defensive ones, and are more indicative of playing style than actual rebounding ability, which is why guys like Moses Malone have inflated RPG numbers. You should use DRB%, as it's a much better tool to gauge rebounding ability since it accounts for biases like pace.
 

Yes, but why does he provide spacing? Because he's such an amazing scorer who commands double teams. Nobody will leave Dirk because they know he makes a lot of shots even when challenged. Same thing with a lot of other superstars, they make everyone around them better. I was undermining his skills, though. I apologize. His main job, then, is to score. Compare that to LeBron who has to score oer 20 a night, get some assists and easy baskets for others, rebound close to 10 per night, and defend pretty much every position on the floor thorughout a game before shifting onto the opposing teams best offensive player during "crunch time."

Well, you have to understand this in the context of a 5-on-5 game with his position. This is a 7-ft PF who takes strong and mobile defensive bigs like Haslem, Collison, and Ibaka out of their comfort zone and forces them to leave to the perimeter. A SG wouldn't have the same impact on spacing a guy like Nowitzki provides, since guards are mostly on the perimeter anyway. With that, it opens up cutting and passing lanes for guys like Barea, who otherwise are sub-35% shooters with Nowitzki off the court, since the bigs won't be able to rotate quickly to help. That's only one aspect his spacing provides, but it's more beneficial with his skill-set and mid-post game than someone like Durant for example. They don't have a similar impact on spacing.
 
James rarely guards all 5 positions. He spot guards a 4 on occasion, and maybe 2 possessions for a C. Due to his athleticism and mobility, he can help out more which improves the team defence, but he doesn't effectively guard the bigs efficiently 1-on-1, on a consistent basis.
#37 Posted by Sexy Merc (42071 posts) - - Show Bio
@King Saturn said:
@Sexy Merc said:
@King Saturn said:
I can't say that... I mean in 2007, Lebron James had a game against the Pistons where he scored like 25 straight points for his team... I think he had 48 points for the game... when has KG ever had a playoff performance like that ?
He never had a playoff scoring game that high or efficiently, but KG isn't know for his scoring like James. They do different things. James never anchored a defence like KG or had 26 rebound performances. I think you're focusing on the scoring aspect too much. James is indeed a better scorer than Garnett, but most of his impact comes from defence, rebounding, and passing.
James has the all around game though... Lebron can Pass, Rebound and Play Defense... as well as Score at a Very High Level... I just can't see Garnett being ahead of him... don't make sense to me... he never lead a crap team to the Finals like Lebron did... plus Lebron's all around game seems better than Garnett's... 
There are various ranges to their games though. James is a much better scorer, while Garnett is a much better rebounder. James is the better passer, but it's decently close. James has the edge offensively, while Garnett does on defence. Their differences overall and impact over the years are small, but like I said, longevity matters. If I'm getting 12 elite seasons from Garnett where his peak is comparable to James, who has 8 seasons; I'm taking Garnett. All things considered, they're too close for those extra years to not matter.
 
That Finals run needs some context though. The East was really weak compared to the West (where the Pistons already were past their prime, and below average teams like the Nets and Wizards [41-41 record] made the playoffs), and if you put the Cavaliers in the West, and the Wolves in the East; James would have have been able to make it to the Finals.
#38 Posted by King Saturn (223985 posts) - - Show Bio
@Sexy Merc said:
@King Saturn said:
@Sexy Merc said:
@King Saturn said:
I can't say that... I mean in 2007, Lebron James had a game against the Pistons where he scored like 25 straight points for his team... I think he had 48 points for the game... when has KG ever had a playoff performance like that ?
He never had a playoff scoring game that high or efficiently, but KG isn't know for his scoring like James. They do different things. James never anchored a defence like KG or had 26 rebound performances. I think you're focusing on the scoring aspect too much. James is indeed a better scorer than Garnett, but most of his impact comes from defence, rebounding, and passing.
James has the all around game though... Lebron can Pass, Rebound and Play Defense... as well as Score at a Very High Level... I just can't see Garnett being ahead of him... don't make sense to me... he never lead a crap team to the Finals like Lebron did... plus Lebron's all around game seems better than Garnett's... 
There are various ranges to their games though. James is a much better scorer, while Garnett is a much better rebounder. James is the better passer, but it's decently close. James has the edge offensively, while Garnett does on defence. Their differences overall and impact over the years are small, but like I said, longevity matters. If I'm getting 12 elite seasons from Garnett where his peak is comparable to James, who has 8 seasons; I'm taking Garnett. All things considered, they're too close for those extra years to not matter.
 
That Finals run needs some context though. The East was really weak compared to the West (where the Pistons already were past their prime, and below average teams like the Nets and Wizards [41-41 record] made the playoffs), and if you put the Cavaliers in the West, and the Wolves in the East; James would have have been able to make it to the Finals.
I don't think their impact is similar... one guy was able to take a team with a bunch of no name players to the Finals while the other guy could not get his team to the Finals at all... and the year when Garnett got close he had Sam Cassell ( who could still play then ) and Sprewell ( who was averaging around 18 - 19 points per game )... KG has help... I can't even think of anyone legit on that Cavs team Lebron took to the Finals... also you said the Pistons was past their prime when Lebron and the Cavs beat them ? How can this be when the next season the Pistons went 59 - 23 and lost in the Eastern Conference Finals to the Celtics team that won the Championship that year ? I think you are leaning way too hard against what Lebron did in 2007 with that Cavs team... it's nothing like anything KG could do with the T'Wolves when he had help. 
#39 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sexy Merc said:

@Xanni15 said:

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. The recent stats appear to back you up, but I would caution into giving Dirk a lot of the credit for the Mavs team defense (at least in recent years) as Carlisle is an excellent coach, Dwyane Casey was one of the best assistants in the league, and Chandler or other shot blockers backed Dirk up. Pau last year was effectively the 3rd option on the Lakers, Bryant and Bynum before him. I don't think it's fair to assume that Dirk was the sole reason for Pau struggling.

His rebounding numbers are not what a premier bigman should be getting, not saying that he needs to be Dwight or Love and pull down 13-15 RPG but a double double would be nice.

Unless I'm mistaken, which is certainly possible, the last two portions only enforce that it's the teams defense, and not Dirk's that is the main reason.

Alright, but that data goes back to 2003. Nowitzki had 3 different supporting casts and coaching staffs from 2003 (championship level team), to 2006 (championship level team), to 2011 (championship level team. where Terry was the only similar face from 2006), and his defensive impact throughout those years was consistent. The data shows and by watching the games, that he has been an above average defender for the PF spot, and indeed had a positive impact on his team's defence over the years. He was the constant during that whole span.

Gasol struggling was mostly because of Nowitzki. He was the one guarding him in the post in most possessions, and Nowitzki did a better job on Gasol when he had Haywood as his C, than with Chandler (Chandler also got destroyed in this Olympics by Gasol). His rebounding picks up in the playoffs, where he's one of the few player in history (one of the GOAT playoff performers) to average those kinds of numbers. Nowitzki also is playing further away from the basket and gets back on defence as the first guy which helps the overall team defence from preventing easy transition opportunities. Offensive rebounds aren't as important as defensive ones, and are more indicative of playing style than actual rebounding ability, which is why guys like Moses Malone have inflated RPG numbers. You should use DRB%, as it's a much better tool to gauge rebounding ability since it accounts for biases like pace.

I think it was just mostly that Dirk was surrounded by defensive players, and more recently a very good defensive system. Like you said, Dirk has allowed the Mavs to have a strictly defensive center. I would go as far as to call him an average defender, nothing more.

Dirk doing all of that is imply apart of the role the Mavs want him to have. He excels playing away from the basket because he's one of the greatest shooters of all time, and one of the most difficult players to guard. Put a big on him and he'll dribble around them, put a guard and he'll just shoot over them all game. Looks like Dirk's TRB% is just under 13%.

@Sexy Merc said:

@Xanni15 said:

Yes, but why does he provide spacing? Because he's such an amazing scorer who commands double teams. Nobody will leave Dirk because they know he makes a lot of shots even when challenged. Same thing with a lot of other superstars, they make everyone around them better. I was undermining his skills, though. I apologize. His main job, then, is to score. Compare that to LeBron who has to score oer 20 a night, get some assists and easy baskets for others, rebound close to 10 per night, and defend pretty much every position on the floor thorughout a game before shifting onto the opposing teams best offensive player during "crunch time."

Well, you have to understand this in the context of a 5-on-5 game with his position. This is a 7-ft PF who takes strong and mobile defensive bigs like Haslem, Collison, and Ibaka out of their comfort zone and forces them to leave to the perimeter. A SG wouldn't have the same impact on spacing a guy like Nowitzki provides, since guards are mostly on the perimeter anyway. With that, it opens up cutting and passing lanes for guys like Barea, who otherwise are sub-35% shooters with Nowitzki off the court, since the bigs won't be able to rotate quickly to help. That's only one aspect his spacing provides, but it's more beneficial with his skill-set and mid-post game than someone like Durant for example. They don't have a similar impact on spacing.

James rarely guards all 5 positions. He spot guards a 4 on occasion, and maybe 2 possessions for a C. Due to his athleticism and mobility, he can help out more which improves the team defence, but he doesn't effectively guard the bigs efficiently 1-on-1, on a consistent basis.

I understand what Dirk does, I simplified his role way too much by saying all he does is score, my mistake. Big men will almost always have more of an impact on the game based upon the position they play and roles assigned to them, I'm not debating the impact Dirk has on his team, I've already admitted that.

James doesn't guard positions so much as players, he often plays the PF spot in the small lineups Miami runs with Bosh at center which was a constant lineup. He has shown the ability to reasonably guard centers on occasion, which isn't his game. During the Olympics he guarded both Pau Gasol and Serge Ibaka for quite a bit. Maybe the reason we don't seem him guarding the best post players in the league the a lot more is because those players (and nobody else really) can guard LeBron on the other end.

#40 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23804 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@King Saturn: @dccomicsrule2011: @Xanni15: and who are these 14 or so other people that are better? Are we including people like Wilt and bill russell? The game was totally different back then and the competition not nearly as steep. if you go from the "modern" era (since magic/bird) i'd say he's top 10.

  1. Michael Jordan
  2. Magic Johnson
  3. Karrem
  4. Bill Russel
  5. Larry Bird
  6. Wilt chamberlain
  7. Jerry West
  8. Tim Duncan
  9. Kobe Bryant
  10. Oscar Robinson
  11. Shaq
  12. Hakeem Olajuwan
  13. John J. "Hondo" Havlicek
  14. Dirk Newizktki
Online
#41 Posted by pooty (11009 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@pooty said:

@King Saturn: @dccomicsrule2011: @Xanni15: and who are these 14 or so other people that are better? Are we including people like Wilt and bill russell? The game was totally different back then and the competition not nearly as steep. if you go from the "modern" era (since magic/bird) i'd say he's top 10.

  1. Michael Jordan
  2. Magic Johnson
  3. Karrem
  4. Bill Russel
  5. Larry Bird
  6. Wilt chamberlain
  7. Jerry West
  8. Tim Duncan
  9. Kobe Bryant
  10. Oscar Robinson
  11. Shaq
  12. Hakeem Olajuwan
  13. John J. "Hondo" Havlicek
  14. Dirk Newizktki

I'm not old enough to have seen Bill Russel or Wilt or Jerry West or Oscar Robinson or Havlicek, so i only know them by stats and legend. So i can't argue for or against them. But when i see highlights it does not appear to me that the competition is the same, the plays seem different, it looks like street ball. I'm not sure how well those guys would have done in the modern format. Another thing, if you have Tim Duncan, why doesn't KG make the list? I think the spurs would have won the same amount of titles if you trade Duncan for garnett.

#42 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23804 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@pooty said:

@King Saturn: @dccomicsrule2011: @Xanni15: and who are these 14 or so other people that are better? Are we including people like Wilt and bill russell? The game was totally different back then and the competition not nearly as steep. if you go from the "modern" era (since magic/bird) i'd say he's top 10.

  1. Michael Jordan
  2. Magic Johnson
  3. Karrem
  4. Bill Russel
  5. Larry Bird
  6. Wilt chamberlain
  7. Jerry West
  8. Tim Duncan
  9. Kobe Bryant
  10. Oscar Robinson
  11. Shaq
  12. Hakeem Olajuwan
  13. John J. "Hondo" Havlicek
  14. Dirk Newizktki

I'm not old enough to have seen Bill Russel or Wilt or Jerry West or Oscar Robinson or Havlicek, so i only know them by stats and legend. So i can't argue for or against them. But when i see highlights it does not appear to me that the competition is the same, the plays seem different, it looks like street ball. I'm not sure how well those guys would have done in the modern format. Another thing, if you have Tim Duncan, why doesn't KG make the list? I think the spurs would have won the same amount of titles if you trade Duncan for garnett.

When I rate player I ignore the era's Because we can argue some player these days would fair worse against players in the 80's when hand checking was allowed. I don't penalize players who played in different era's it was not there fault there era was weaker the now. On KG and Tim Duncan Timmy elevate he level of play in big games Kg some time shy away from the moment that's why I put Timmy ahead of KG he is more clutch.

Online
#43 Posted by pooty (11009 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: I understand the era thing. it was not there fault for being born in that era but i can see Lebron and Kobe still scoring 25pts a night against Dr. J, James worthy, or Magic. but i can't see Wilt and oscar grabbing 40 boards against shaq and D. Howard. Duncan may be better in the clutch but if Tim is #8 then KG gotta be in top 10. If KG had the players and coach of Duncan, i think you would have had the same results.

#44 Posted by Odyssey_Dawn (84674 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

If KG had the players and coach of Duncan, i think you would have had the same results.

Yeah KG wasted some good years in Minnesota, while on the flip side Tim Duncan stepped into the league with the perfect monitor(s) in the Admiral and Coach Pop.

Moderator
#45 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@King Saturn: @dccomicsrule2011: @Xanni15: and who are these 14 or so other people that are better? Are we including people like Wilt and bill russell? The game was totally different back then and the competition not nearly as steep. if you go from the "modern" era (since magic/bird) i'd say he's top 10.

Everyone else has a list...

1) Jordan

2) Kobe

3) Duncan

4) Hakeem

5) Shaq

6) LeBron

7) Isiah

8) Bird

9) Magic

10) KG

#46 Posted by Batnandez (511 posts) - - Show Bio

@Sexy Merc said:

@pooty:

Even if we use that generation bias, and take players since the '80s (so, I take it you're excluding Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, who had his best years in the '70s), he still wouldn't be Top-10:

1) Michael Jordan
2) Magic Johnson
3) Larry Bird
4) Tim Duncan
5) Shaquille O'Neal
6) Hakeem Olajuwon
7) Kevin Garnett
8) Kobe Bryant
9) Karl Malone
10) Dirk Nowitzki (I can see the argument for James above Nowitzki if you heavily value peak above all, but the longevity advantage is still there)

lol Tim Duncan at 4? KG at 7? wtf bruh.

#47 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23804 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@dccomicsrule2011: I understand the era thing. it was not there fault for being born in that era but i can see Lebron and Kobe still scoring 25pts a night against Dr. J, James worthy, or Magic. but i can't see Wilt and oscar grabbing 40 boards against shaq and D. Howard. Duncan may be better in the clutch but if Tim is #8 then KG gotta be in top 10. If KG had the players and coach of Duncan, i think you would have had the same results.

I understand what you are saying but if we cut Bill Russel and Wilt's rebounds in half the still would average well over 10 rebounds per game. The reason KG is not in the top 10 because he shy's away from the big moment at times and the rest in my top 10 plays better under pressure (except Wilt) if it was not for that KG could actually be ahead of Timmy Clutch means alot to me but that is just my opinion feel free to disagree.

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#48 Posted by pooty (11009 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011: When has KG shied away? Who did he let take over the lead? KG always rose to occasion i thought. What times are you talking about?

#49 Edited by Shamelesslysupportinaznballers (553 posts) - - Show Bio

As a hardcore Laker fan, favorite players are Magic & Kareem I personally think he is the best to have played this game based purely on what he can do on the floor.

To me Lebron James is a combination of Magic Johnson, MJ & Pippen all rolled into one. The guy is 6'8" & 250lbs and he can do everything. He could avg close to 40 ppg if he refuses to pass & just shoots on every possession like Kevin Durant. He could play PG like Magic and there wouldn't be a PG in the history of the league that could match up with him except maybe Magic & Big O. Even then, Lebron would be just too strong & just too fast for them. He's already an elite defender & like Pippen, they both can guard every single position with the exception of the better Cs in the league. Pippen went out & guarded Magic, Worthy, Malone, Kemp, Payton, Stockton, anyone you can think of in the finals. Same w/Lebron, he guards everyone and he doesn't have the luxury that MJ had to have someone else guard the best opposing player while he rests for the 4th.

Now what people are going to judge him on will be his accomplishments & right now he would be in my top 5 (again based on guys who I have watched since 86). If you just go by age though and the cut off would be 27, Lebron would have won 3 MVPs, 1 Finals MVP & 1 NBA championship by the time he was 27. In comparison Jordan had 1 MVP & 0 championships at 27.

#50 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (23804 posts) - - Show Bio

@pooty said:

@dccomicsrule2011: When has KG shied away? Who did he let take over the lead? KG always rose to occasion i thought. What times are you talking about?

He got knocked out of the first round 8 times in the row for starters a big part was because he shied away from the moment at times just watch some old T Wolves playoff games. I will give you a quot from the Best NBA Source book ever Bill Simmons Book of Basketball that explains the Garnet/ Duncan debate.

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