Washington and Lee University in Virginia is removing the Confederate Battle flag from Lee's Chapel, which is where Robert E. Lee, famed Confederate general, is buried. He also was the president of the University and helped turn the university into a large school.
After some complaints by a group of students known as 'the Committee' the school decided to removed the battle flags from the chapel, where Lee is buried.
Robert E. Lee
What do you think? Should the flags stay at the tomb of the famed General, or should they be removed?
I don't really care. But, he was a confederate, so why not leave the flags?
I agree that they should leave the flags, it's his gravesite.. If the ones complaining say the flags offend them and are 'racist', then shouldn't they be complaining about Lee being buried there as well? He was the head General of the Confederate army, his soldiers flew those flags, he supported the Southern cause..
If it offends you, just stay out of the chapel and do what you came to the school to do, to study and graduate.
No. Get rid of the flags. The Confederates spilt the blood of our people. They deserve nothingfrom us in their deaths. Not even a grave-site. And no I'm not offended by the flags because they mean nothing to me. What I do care about is the wishes of the soldiers that sacrificed themselves for freedom. Would they really want this guy to have a nice little burial? Hell no! He's basically the Bin Laden of that time. They should have thrown his disgusting body into the ocean.
No. Get rid of the flags. The Confederates spilt the blood of our people. They deserve nothingfrom us in their deaths. Not even a grave-site. And no I'm not offended by the flags because they mean nothing to me. What I do care about is the wishes of the soldiers that sacrificed themselves for freedom. Would they really want this guy to have a nice little burial? Hell no! He's basically the Bin Laden of that time. They should have thrown his disgusting body into the ocean.
Okay.. Tell me why the Confederate dead deserve nothing? And how is Lee like the Bin Laden of that time?
Because judging from your post, I'm going to make a strong assumption that your knowledge of Lee and the Civil War is near to nothing.
I don't really care. But, he was a confederate, so why not leave the flags?
Fun fact, that is not actually the flag of the Confederacy, but instead the Northern Virginia battle flag. Lee was the commander of the Northern Virginia army so it's only appropriate the flags be left there.
Okay.. Tell me why the Confederate dead deserve nothing?
...because they fought against our country. They are were terrorists. They worked hard to enforce slavery and, quite frankly, hatred.
And how is Lee like the Bin Laden of that time?
Because he was a leader of terrorists against the U.S. Men--good men died on his call. I'm sorry but a man like that deserves nothing nice, especially when he's dead. His life is over.
Because judging from your post, I'm going to make a strong assumption that your knowledge of Lee and the Civil War is near to nothing.
And I'm going to assume you know more about these two things than I do. However I do have basic info. Info that should suffice. He's a Confederate. Someone who led troops against the Union in order to succeed from America...or something like that. Either way--he was a very bad man.
Okay.. Tell me why the Confederate dead deserve nothing?
...because they fought against our country. They are were terrorists. They worked hard to enforce slavery and, quite frankly, hatred.
And how is Lee like the Bin Laden of that time?
Because he was a leader of terrorists against the U.S. Men--good men died on his call. I'm sorry but a man like that deserves nothing nice, especially when he's dead. His life is over.
Because judging from your post, I'm going to make a strong assumption that your knowledge of Lee and the Civil War is near to nothing.
And I'm going to assume you know more about these two things than I do. However I do have basic info. Info that should suffice. He's a Confederate. Someone who led troops against the Union in order to succeed from America...or something like that. Either way--he was a very bad man.
Secede, not succeed.
Confederates were not terrorists. If anything William Tecumseh Sherman and the Union forces that marched across the South burning towns to the ground were using terrorist tactics.
Okay.. Tell me why the Confederate dead deserve nothing?
...because they fought against our country. They are were terrorists. They worked hard to enforce slavery and, quite frankly, hatred.
And how is Lee like the Bin Laden of that time?
Because he was a leader of terrorists against the U.S. Men--good men died on his call. I'm sorry but a man like that deserves nothing nice, especially when he's dead. His life is over.
Because judging from your post, I'm going to make a strong assumption that your knowledge of Lee and the Civil War is near to nothing.
And I'm going to assume you know more about these two things than I do. However I do have basic info. Info that should suffice. He's a Confederate. Someone who led troops against the Union in order to succeed from America...or something like that. Either way--he was a very bad man.
Do you know why Lee decided to turn down Lincoln's offer of leading the Union army? Because he was an evil racist who wanted nothing more than to keep all the blacks in chains? No. Because following the attack on Fort Sumter Lincoln called forth a huge army to invade and take the South back by force, and that started at Virginia, Lee's home (Also, Virginia didn't even secede from the Union until Lincoln decided to invade the South). Lee stated he could never lead an army to attack his homeland and his Southern brothers. He decided to join the Confederacy because he was a Southerner. Something people back then took great pride in.
Ever hear of Lincoln's bribe to bring the South back into the Union? Called the Corwin Amendment? Yes.. This amendment that Lincoln backed garaunteed the South that slavery would NEVER ever ever ever be abolished and would forever be protected. Yet, the South refused and showed no interest in rejoining the Union.
When Lincoln called for an army to take the South back by force every Southerner saw that as him invading there homeland and to destroy and burn their homes. That's why so many men from ages 14-60+ left their homes, families, sons and daughter, and wives to defend their homes. Over 75% of the men who joined the Confederacy to fight didn't even own a slave.. They were poor dirt farmers. Why would they risk death and leave their families for the upper class/competition of their trade? They died fighting for one thing: defending their homes.
The South seceded from the Union and wanted one thing: to be left alone. They had no interest in invading the North and taking over the whole country. That's a fact. They were not terrorists and they were not fighting to enforce slavery and hatred.
Lincoln didn't even make the war about abolishing slavery until 1863. And the Emancipation Proclamation freed ZERO slaves. It only garaunteed the freedom to the slaves in CONFEDERATE controlled land, which the Union had NO say so in... Slaves in Union controlled states such as Missouri and Maryland was NOT freed! That's a fact. The Emancipation Proclamation's purpose was to 1. cause wide spread panic in the South and 2. Prevent foreign countries such as France and England from siding with the South. Slaves were not freed officially until after the war.
And take a look at this picture:
Wait....could it be..... is that a black man at a Confederate Civil War reunion? Waving the third national flag of the Confederacy???? Yes. Black confederates existed, and according to Frederick Douglass himself they were armed, and firing against the Union soldiers. Wait a sec... That flag... it says Forrest's Escort! Yes. That's Nathan B. Forrest's cavalry unit, the so called evil racist who was the first Grand Wizard of the KKK.
The point I am making is the soldiers who took arm's against the North all were not evil racists who risked their lives to preserve slavery. They were protecting their homes. That's why they deserve to be honored, as is Robert E. Lee.
Okay.. Tell me why the Confederate dead deserve nothing?
...because they fought against our country. They are were terrorists. They worked hard to enforce slavery and, quite frankly, hatred.
And how is Lee like the Bin Laden of that time?
Because he was a leader of terrorists against the U.S. Men--good men died on his call. I'm sorry but a man like that deserves nothing nice, especially when he's dead. His life is over.
Because judging from your post, I'm going to make a strong assumption that your knowledge of Lee and the Civil War is near to nothing.
And I'm going to assume you know more about these two things than I do. However I do have basic info. Info that should suffice. He's a Confederate. Someone who led troops against the Union in order to succeed from America...or something like that. Either way--he was a very bad man.
Secede, not succeed.
Confederates were not terrorists. If anything William Tecumseh Sherman and the Union forces that marched across the South burning towns to the ground were using terrorist tactics.
Spelling check kept making me change the word. I didn't know how to spell it lol. But anyways...yeah they were. They literally fought and died for slavery. Soldiers fought and died and endured unimaginable horrors at the hands of those people....Did i mention that they fought for slavery.
Okay.. Tell me why the Confederate dead deserve nothing?
...because they fought against our country. They are were terrorists. They worked hard to enforce slavery and, quite frankly, hatred.
And how is Lee like the Bin Laden of that time?
Because he was a leader of terrorists against the U.S. Men--good men died on his call. I'm sorry but a man like that deserves nothing nice, especially when he's dead. His life is over.
Because judging from your post, I'm going to make a strong assumption that your knowledge of Lee and the Civil War is near to nothing.
And I'm going to assume you know more about these two things than I do. However I do have basic info. Info that should suffice. He's a Confederate. Someone who led troops against the Union in order to succeed from America...or something like that. Either way--he was a very bad man.
Secede, not succeed.
Confederates were not terrorists. If anything William Tecumseh Sherman and the Union forces that marched across the South burning towns to the ground were using terrorist tactics.
Spelling check kept making me change the word. I didn't know how to spell it lol. But anyways...yeah they were. They literally fought and died for slavery. Soldiers fought and died and endured unimaginable horrors at the hands of those people....Did i mention that they fought for slavery.
Ulysses S. Grant, lead General of the Union army once said that if the war was being fought to end slavery he would lay down his sword and join the Confederacy.. And Lincoln himself stated many of times that the purpose of the war was to preserve the Union NOT to end slavery.
Let's take the flags down because the war is over and keeping them up means its okay to secede when you don't like the government. Maybe it's a bad time considering that the nation hasn't been more politically divided since the Civil War Era, but yes, they should come down.
Let's take the flags down because the war is over and keeping them up means its okay to secede when you don't like the government. Maybe it's a bad time considering that the nation hasn't been more politically divided since the Civil War Era, but yes, they should come down.
Why isn't it okay to secede when you don't like the government? The whole country was founded on that principle.
Let's take the flags down because the war is over and keeping them up means its okay to secede when you don't like the government. Maybe it's a bad time considering that the nation hasn't been more politically divided since the Civil War Era, but yes, they should come down.
Why isn't it okay to secede when you don't like the government? The whole country was founded on that principle.
Because then there's no point in having a government at all. Compromise is a big part of politics. We didn't leave the U.K. because we were tired of losing votes, we left because we weren't represented. The big difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War is that the South did in fact have representation in the legislative branch, whereas the 13 colonies didn't. Losing a vote is very different, from not having a vote at all. *Cough-cough-SLAVERY-cough-cough*
Let's take the flags down because the war is over and keeping them up means its okay to secede when you don't like the government. Maybe it's a bad time considering that the nation hasn't been more politically divided since the Civil War Era, but yes, they should come down.
Why isn't it okay to secede when you don't like the government? The whole country was founded on that principle.
Because then there's no point in having a government at all. Compromise is a big part of politics. We didn't leave the U.K. because we were tired of losing votes, we left because we weren't represented. The big difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War is that the South did in fact have representation in the legislative branch, whereas the 13 colonies didn't. Losing a vote is very different, from not having a vote at all. *Cough-cough-SLAVERY-cough-cough*
Good point. But I don't think that's a reason to lower the flag that represents all the men Lee led into battle, and all those men that died in battle. The flag is the Rebel soldiers flag, nothing else. It was created for one reason: The Star and Bars (national flag of the CSA) looked to similar to the Stars and Stripes and the soldiers were confusing the two in battle. So they adopted a soldiers flag that consists of the cross of St. Andrews (the same cross thats on Scotlands national flag).
Let's take the flags down because the war is over and keeping them up means its okay to secede when you don't like the government. Maybe it's a bad time considering that the nation hasn't been more politically divided since the Civil War Era, but yes, they should come down.
Why isn't it okay to secede when you don't like the government? The whole country was founded on that principle.
Because then there's no point in having a government at all. Compromise is a big part of politics. We didn't leave the U.K. because we were tired of losing votes, we left because we weren't represented. The big difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War is that the South did in fact have representation in the legislative branch, whereas the 13 colonies didn't. Losing a vote is very different, from not having a vote at all. *Cough-cough-SLAVERY-cough-cough*
Good point. But I don't think that's a reason to lower the flag that represents all the men Lee led into battle, and all those men that died in battle. The flag is the Rebel soldiers flag, nothing else. It was created for one reason: The Star and Bars (national flag of the CSA) looked to similar to the Stars and Stripes and the soldiers were confusing the two in battle. So they adopted a soldiers flag that consists of the cross of St. Andrews (the same cross thats on Scotlands national flag).
I really hate to do this in an argument but it's relative to this part of the argument; like the stars and bars flag, a swastika is not in itself offensive, but when examining the historical context of its usage (i.e. the ideas associated with it, slavery for s&b and holocaust with swas) it becomes offensive.
This might seem offensive to you but why not hang up American flags, because that's what they truly where. Venerating them as rebels only promotes the Confederacy as a good thing and since pro-slavery was a lynchpin for the group's ideology, it would indirectly support slavery (and secession which would ultimately promote anarchy).
Let's take the flags down because the war is over and keeping them up means its okay to secede when you don't like the government. Maybe it's a bad time considering that the nation hasn't been more politically divided since the Civil War Era, but yes, they should come down.
Why isn't it okay to secede when you don't like the government? The whole country was founded on that principle.
Because then there's no point in having a government at all. Compromise is a big part of politics. We didn't leave the U.K. because we were tired of losing votes, we left because we weren't represented. The big difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War is that the South did in fact have representation in the legislative branch, whereas the 13 colonies didn't. Losing a vote is very different, from not having a vote at all. *Cough-cough-SLAVERY-cough-cough*
Good point. But I don't think that's a reason to lower the flag that represents all the men Lee led into battle, and all those men that died in battle. The flag is the Rebel soldiers flag, nothing else. It was created for one reason: The Star and Bars (national flag of the CSA) looked to similar to the Stars and Stripes and the soldiers were confusing the two in battle. So they adopted a soldiers flag that consists of the cross of St. Andrews (the same cross thats on Scotlands national flag).
I really hate to do this in an argument but it's relative to this part of the argument; like the stars and bars flag, a swastika is not in itself offensive, but when examining the historical context of its usage (i.e. the ideas associated with it, slavery for s&b and holocaust with swas) it becomes offensive.
This might seem offensive to you but why not hang up American flags, because that's what they truly where. Venerating them as rebels only promotes the Confederacy as a good thing and since pro-slavery was a lynchpin for the group's ideology, it would indirectly support slavery (and secession which would ultimately promote anarchy).
The Stars and Bars isn't the Confederate Battle Flag, it's the first national flag of the Confederacy.. I see (as well as most Southerners) see the Confederate battle flag as the soldiers flag, who were doing nothing more than defending their homes from what they saw as an invading army from the North. To compare the CBF to the swastika is outrageous, everything the Stars and Stripes supported honestly fits more along the lines of the Nazi agenda.. with the whole Native American genocide and sending them to reservations (or camps)..
Yes it's true one of the main reasons the South seceded was because of slavery, but that wasn't the reason they went to war (which led to the CBF's creation). The Corwin Amendment and Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, etc. refusing to secede up until Lincoln invaded is pretty much proof of that. (and the flag being created by the Army of Northern Virginia)
I just don't see whats wrong with the flag being indoors, in Robert E Lee's crypt.
@biteme_fanboy Wowzers. A history debate on the Vine. Le rock.
You made a lot of...compelling arguments but you didn't really attack any of mine. I never said anything about racism. I'm not interested in the Confederates home lives, or the fact that they were, in fact, too poor to afford slaves. I don't care about how this country nearly wrote slavery into the Constitution--which you seem to blame on Lincoln. I certainly am not interested in the fact that there were Black Confederates (who actually made up at most 1% of the Confeds). I am, however, interested in a man who fought on the side of the bad guys. He wanted to tear this country apart. He fought to keep slavery. Most importantly--his actions caused people to die. Not just people--innocent Americans. Had the South won, Blacks would be treated even worse than they are now. It was a goodthing that they lost.
The focal point is 1. He was a Confederate. 2. He knew what Confederates were fighting for which included the keeping of slaves. 3. No matter how justified you think they were, the Confederates were the bad guys. The people who wanted slavery. They deserve nothing.
Let's take the flags down because the war is over and keeping them up means its okay to secede when you don't like the government. Maybe it's a bad time considering that the nation hasn't been more politically divided since the Civil War Era, but yes, they should come down.
Why isn't it okay to secede when you don't like the government? The whole country was founded on that principle.
Because then there's no point in having a government at all. Compromise is a big part of politics. We didn't leave the U.K. because we were tired of losing votes, we left because we weren't represented. The big difference between the Revolutionary War and the Civil War is that the South did in fact have representation in the legislative branch, whereas the 13 colonies didn't. Losing a vote is very different, from not having a vote at all. *Cough-cough-SLAVERY-cough-cough*
Good point. But I don't think that's a reason to lower the flag that represents all the men Lee led into battle, and all those men that died in battle. The flag is the Rebel soldiers flag, nothing else. It was created for one reason: The Star and Bars (national flag of the CSA) looked to similar to the Stars and Stripes and the soldiers were confusing the two in battle. So they adopted a soldiers flag that consists of the cross of St. Andrews (the same cross thats on Scotlands national flag).
I really hate to do this in an argument but it's relative to this part of the argument; like the stars and bars flag, a swastika is not in itself offensive, but when examining the historical context of its usage (i.e. the ideas associated with it, slavery for s&b and holocaust with swas) it becomes offensive.
This might seem offensive to you but why not hang up American flags, because that's what they truly where. Venerating them as rebels only promotes the Confederacy as a good thing and since pro-slavery was a lynchpin for the group's ideology, it would indirectly support slavery (and secession which would ultimately promote anarchy).
The Stars and Bars isn't the Confederate Battle Flag, it's the first national flag of the Confederacy.. I see (as well as most Southerners) see the Confederate battle flag as the soldiers flag, who were doing nothing more than defending their homes from what they saw as an invading army from the North. To compare the CBF to the swastika is outrageous, everything the Stars and Stripes supported honestly fits more along the lines of the Nazi agenda.. with the whole Native American genocide and sending them to reservations (or camps)..
Yes it's true one of the main reasons the South seceded was because of slavery, but that wasn't the reason they went to war (which led to the CBF's creation). The Corwin Amendment and Virginia, Tennessee, North Carolina, etc. refusing to secede up until Lincoln invaded is pretty much proof of that. (and the flag being created by the Army of Northern Virginia)
I just don't see whats wrong with the flag being indoors, in Robert E Lee's crypt.
The point is that it represents an illegitimate government that tried to split our nation. It doesn't matter if the flag isn't the same as the battle flag, it still represents rebellion. Slavery was not the only policy but it is what the confederacy was most closely associated with, and therefore, still offensive.
@marvel_boy2241: Don't ever compare Laden to Lee. General Lee was a highly respected man by both the North and South for his integrity and honor as a leader. You have no right to belittle someone's name when you clearly know absolutely nothing about them.
@biteme_fanboy Wowzers. A history debate on the Vine. Le rock.
You made a lot of...compelling arguments but you didn't really attack any of mine. I never said anything about racism. I'm not interested in the Confederates home lives, or the fact that they were, in fact, too poor to afford slaves. I don't care about how this country nearly wrote slavery into the Constitution--which you seem to blame on Lincoln. I certainly am not interested in the fact that there were Black Confederates (who actually made up at most 1% of the Confeds). I am, however, interested in a man who fought on the side of the bad guys. He wanted to tear this country apart. He fought to keep slavery. Most importantly--his actions caused people to die. Not just people--innocent Americans. Had the South won, Blacks would be treated even worse than they are now. It was a goodthing that they lost.
The focal point is 1. He was a Confederate. 2. He knew what Confederates were fighting for which included the keeping of slaves. 3. No matter how justified you think they were, the Confederates were the bad guys. The people who wanted slavery. They deserve nothing.
It's not Robert E. Lee's fault that thousands of people died. He didn't start the war. The war was laid out before him and he had to choose a side, and he chose his home. Lincoln and South Carolina started the war. South Carolina attacked Ft. Sumter after demanding it should be evacuated, and Lincoln tested them by sending more troops and supplies to the fort. No one died in the attack though, and Lincoln in return, invaded the South.
He didn't want to tear this country apart, I have NO IDEA where you are getting this!? The South's objective wasn't to attack the North and take over everything and kill everyone in sight, their objective was to protect their homes. That. is. it. Slavery had nothing to do with the war, proved by things Lincoln himself said. Yes, the Confederacy allowed slavery, so did America for over a 100 years. Should we chunk every president that came before Lincoln's body into the sea? Washington? Jefferson? and spit on every single piece of history of America up til the Civil War? Every slave brought to America was brought over under the Stars and Stripes.
Yes I'm glad the South loss. But I don't think that means we should spit on all the men who fought and died defending their homes. Especially when most of them cared nothing for slavery.
I listed all those points for one reason: to back my point, to explain why the average Confederate soldier should be honored, and why Lee should as well.
They will probably pull a Futurama and gather every existing episode of Dukes of Hazzard and send them to space.. That or edit in an American flag on top of the car and rename the car 'Honest Abe'.
@biteme_fanboy: Slavery had nothing to do with the war?! Bro stop playing. Historians agree that slavery was a huge factor in the Civil War. Taxes came into it as well. But the South was being invaded because they tried to secede. All this goes without saying. In the end Lee was a Confederate. He certainly was a supporter of slavery considering that was one of the reasons the South entered the war. He wasn't just fighting for his home. Stop making it seem like he is some kind of a victim to the system. America might have started the slavery but at some point they wanted to end it all. Guess what people wanted to stop it? The South. Same with the Civil rights movement and even modern times. I don't get why people are supporting Lee.
@ostyo: Lol what? I have the right to say whateveri want for one thing buddy boy. Lee was a Confederate. Idk why everyone is defending these people. He's not a war hero. He's bad. Every last one of the willing Confederates is bad. His actions caused innocents people to die. And he supported slavery. So uh hop off my link.
@marvel_boy2241: Robert E. Lee wanted to enlist slaves in the Confederate Army in exchange for their freedom? Did you know that? Also what Sherman did is the actual definition of terrorism. Your argument is "Lee was a Confederate, Lee is bad" Are you aware not all the Nazi's were bad? Are you aware that the soldiers that fought against the Nazi's and Confederates felt the same way as me and most and not the way you feel? are you aware of any of this?
My guess is that the group "The Commitee", referred to in the OP, is headed up by you.
Lol. I got accepted and was semi-close to choosing this law school... Then I realized who it was named after, and was like
Several reasons actually.(fell down like 20 rankings, middle of no where, etc.) But I also heard about this conflict with the Committee.
Anyways, I'm not sure if I agree it was a good decision, in terms of history and the fact that it was his grave. However, I think I understand the mental process of the administration. From what I've read, Washington and Lee has a very race-insensitive atmosphere. Not sure what it feels like, as a minority, to walk around in a campus that celebrates a man prominently involved on the opposing side of a war that divided the US and advocated the inferiority and continual oppression of blacks. Moreover, apparently there's a day that celebrates him and the Confederacy, where people parade around their campus waving Confederate flags....Talk about awkward.
What I'm saying is: tensions concerning racial insensitivity on that campus have been swept under the rug since probably decades, but are now bubbling up to the surface. I mean, apparently MLK day(the national holiday that we all get off) wasn't even celebrated as a holiday there until last year(and even still, the undergrad still does not cancel classes for it). I'm not surprised the Committee is making extreme demands to make up for some of the perceived extreme backwardness/bigotry/racism/etc. of the University, that has perpetuated throughout the years. Not sure its right to take the flags down, but if incorrect, its just as incorrect and a slight against history as the fact that a big sub section of their school(their entire school, up until 2013) doesn't deem MLK's accomplishment worthy of a holiday for remembrance.
The administration just wanted to appease them(and get rid of the negative spotlight currently shining on the school, so that they can attempt to draw in minorities and more diversity on their campus....so as to look better overall and hopefully rise in the law school rankings) and that was one of the easier things on their list of demands... To give a clear example of how badly this whole thing has made them look: They offered me a full tuition and fees scholarship(44,000 k a year)(with no serious stipulated GPA for keeping it)...and I still turned them down for another school that was offering me half as much money at that time.
He enlisted slaves (bribed them with freedom)...so that slavery could continue. That's what would have happened if the South won. Slavery and a whole bunch of other crazy stuff. But yeah Nazi's and Confederates are BAD. End of story. There isn't a thin line. It's not a gray area. They are bad. Nazi's wanted to kill Jews. Confederates wanted slavery. You can try to find all this extra stuff that i didn't learn in history class but what I'm,saying still stands. Oh and good guess. It's wrong and even if it were true has no bearing on my argument whatsoever. Still good guess lol.
@marvel_boy2241: you do know Lee said that slavery was an evil institution, right? And followed through his father in laws wishes in freeing the slaves he obtained from him ? Also, you compare the CSA to Nazis... Let's see... The painful truth us this: the south needed slavery to exist. Their economy was based in slavery and agriculture. And proof of that is how poor and crappy the south became during reconstruction. Ok. Nazis wanted to exterminate Jews and take over Europe. USA wanted to exterminate Indians and take over most of North America, and did so by sending their " enemies" to reservations or may I say "Camps ". Where they starved and died from disease .. Hmmm. Sounds more like Nazis to me. The comparison to nazis and the CSA is stupid and makes no sense. Slavery would have died of natural causes or Lincoln administration could have bought them all out from the south. Which would have cost a ton less than what the war did. That would have been the best option to end slavery. Instead of creating a false crusade to end it halfway through a bloody war.
Lee even educated his slaves, despite it being against Virginia law, and let them attend a private church.
He never joined the South in the war to 'protect slavery'.. I just don't get how you don't understand that. When the war started and everyone prepared take up arms against the invading North slavery wasn't even being threatened.. SLavery didn't come into the picture during the war until 1963.
@biteme_fanboy: he doesn't understand it because he is closed-minded and cannot fathom anything being less than black and white right and wrong. You can offer valid points until the cows come home and he's not going to realize he's wrong...or he is trolling.
I do find it ironic that he called the CSA terrorists when by definition the greatest acts of terrorism carried out during that war were committed by Union forces under Sherman in his match to the sea.
Yah know, I've never been anywhere near the USA in my entire life and it would seem I know more about the American Civil War than some of the people in this thread.
Yah know, I've never been anywhere near the USA in my entire life and it would seem I know more about the American Civil War than some of the people in this thread.
It's pretty sad as an American to realize this.
But I want to be a professor of American studies someday, so I for one have an appreciation for American History.
I'm Canadian. I always laugh when Americans designate terrorist groups as such, since their nation was founded by terrorists, for terrorists.
Anyway, In this particular case you have modern sensibilities versus historical tradition. I think the case should be pretty clear cut, keep the flag up.
@biteme_fanboy: I was wrong. Nothing you said persuaded me but went to do my own research. Lee was seen making plans to free and liberate slaves. Although a Confederate,...he was still a good man. I seriously cannot believe I am saying this. *sigh* You win. As for you...
@lunacyde: I don't believe we're acquainted but I can assure you I'm anything but close minded. Hmm you come to a conclusion on my mind(and therefore me) after watching a single debate and then call me close minded. That's real irony.
@ostyo: I was a douche. I shouldn't have said that stuff to you especially sense I was wrong. I acted like a fool. You have my apologies. even if you don't want them.
@biteme_fanboy: I was wrong. Nothing you said persuaded me but went to do my own research. Lee was seen making plans to free and liberate slaves. Although a Confederate,...he was still a good man. I seriously cannot believe I am saying this. *sigh* You win. As for you...
@lunacyde: I don't believe we're acquainted but I can assure you I'm anything but close minded. Hmm you come to a conclusion on my mind(and therefore me) after watching a single debate and then call me close minded. That's real irony.
@ostyo: I was a douche. I shouldn't have said that stuff to you especially sense I was wrong. I acted like a fool. You have my apologies. even if you don't want them.
Sorry, call them as I see them. After reading a number of your posts adamantly refusing to even consider the fact that Lee was not indeed evil incarnate I think my assessment was valid.
But since it seems like you have come to your senses, I can admit perhaps i was wrong and your new actions show a level of open-mindedness I did not attribute to you.
I'm Canadian. I always laugh when Americans designate terrorist groups as such, since their nation was founded by terrorists, for terrorists.
Anyway, In this particular case you have modern sensibilities versus historical tradition. I think the case should be pretty clear cut, keep the flag up.
Well let's not use blanket statements to assess complex historical events. Yes, there were groups of American revolutionaries who did engage in terrorism by all definitions. However i think it is a little overzealous to state that the nation was founded by terrorists, for terrorists. There were thousands of Americans at the time, including many of the founders who did not use terrorist actions.
We must also be careful not to confuse terrorism and guerilla warfare, as they are similar in some respects but also different.
I don't understand why people are making such a big deal out of a flag.
I don't see what's not to understand lol
Regardless of the myriad of reasons for the war, this idea is what people associate with the Confederacy and the Civil War:
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery subordination to the superior race is his natural and normal condition. This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth.
Alexander H. Stephens, Vice President of the Confederacy. Cornerstone Speech
Considering the fact that Slavery/Racism in the US has roughly the same negative connotations as Nazis have in Germany/World, this is no different from someone feeling some way about seeing Swastika signs.
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