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#51 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

Their center was Greg Ostertag. Malone is a PF.

I apologize. I simply meant guard/big man combo.

Oh ok.

@novi_homines

said:

In jordan's era there were two of the greatest teams/ dynasties in nba history, lakers and celtics. Not to mention detroit's dynasty as well. I don't understand why you continuously choose to ignore/downplay MJs era. There's nothing wrong with liking lebron, but state the facts when comparing the two players.

I'm not downplaying them, I'm just giving the facts. There are teams that got knocked out in the second round of this years playoffs that were better than some of the teams MJ beat in the finals. I wasn't really counting the Lakers & Celtics in Jordan's era because the last time either of those teams 1 a title was '87 which was only 2 years into Jordan being in the NBA. Either way if you want to count them, I was bring up who the dynasty was in those eras to compare who was in their (Lebron\Jordan) way to being getting the chip and the Lakers stopped winning titles 5 years before Jordan got his first. The entire time Jordan was winning titles he didn't do it by going through a great Lakers or Celtics team, the '91 Lakers were GOOD but the mid\late 80's was their heyday.

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#52 Edited by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

@lone_wolf_and_cub said:

@vance_astro: Sorry I didn't mean to insult your intelligence. But back to the subject, you can't deny Jordan was far more clutch at the end of games.

I wouldn't argue that, but again I don't think that makes Jordan far superior or keeps Lebron from being on his level. That's not a skill, that's a mentality. Obviously Lebron can score and he shoots at just about as good a percentage as Jordan did. Among active players Lebron ranks 3rd in the league in clutch performances. So it's not like he's not clutch at all.

Look Lebron is great so is Kobe but neither of them are in Jordan's league. Yeah it's a team game but at the end of the day you need to have multiple rings to be in the greatest of all time category. That's why Jordan is still relevant because of how dominant he was. Guy's like him, Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Wayne Gretzsky and Jeter are in another category when it comes to greatness.

Before Lebron got in his prime, all the analysts were saying that Kobe was the closest thing to Jordan we have ever seen. Now Kobe is lucky to even be mentioned as top 5 in the league right now not to mention that at only 28 he's done alot of things that Kobe wasn't able to and probably won't ever be able to accomplish. He's a 4 time MVP, only 4 players have EVER won more than 3 MVP titles. Bill Russell has more rings than Jordan, in fact 5 more rings than Jordan but nobody ever considers him better. That's because Jordan was more than just some rings, he was an all-rounder, he could do everything. He scored better than anybody, he was a good passer, he could rebound and he could defend your best player. Those are all things Lebron can do.

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#53 Edited by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro said:
@novi_homines said:

Their center was Greg Ostertag. Malone is a PF.

I apologize. I simply meant guard/big man combo.

Oh ok.

@novi_homines

said:

In jordan's era there were two of the greatest teams/ dynasties in nba history, lakers and celtics. Not to mention detroit's dynasty as well. I don't understand why you continuously choose to ignore/downplay MJs era. There's nothing wrong with liking lebron, but state the facts when comparing the two players.

I'm not downplaying them, I'm just giving the facts. There are teams that got knocked out in the second round of this years playoffs that were better than some of the teams MJ beat in the finals. I wasn't really counting the Lakers & Celtics in Jordan's era because the last time either of those teams 1 a title was '87 which was only 2 years into Jordan being in the NBA. Either way if you want to count them, I was bring up who the dynasty was in those eras to compare who was in their (Lebron\Jordan) way to being getting the chip and the Lakers stopped winning titles 5 years before Jordan got his first. The entire time Jordan was winning titles he didn't do it by going through a great Lakers or Celtics team, the '91 Lakers were GOOD but the mid\late 80's was their heyday.

This logic makes absolutely no sense. The same can be said for lebron, if you're following this logic. The celtics stopped winning titles 4 yrs before Lebron won his first. And the spurs stopped winning titles 5 years before lebron won his first. Lebron also didn't win his title by going through a great lakers/celtics/spurs team. 2011 celtics were GOOD but 08-10 was their heyday. If you're considering them as "dynasties" during lbj's era. The same must be done for MJ, don't be partial. But obviously you're coming at this from a biased perspective, so that is to be expected.

#54 Posted by Marksman (1364 posts) - - Show Bio

I thought this was relating to Hal Jordan's time as the main Green Lantern. I was ready to rock up in here like "John Stewart FTW!".

And now it's all for nothing.

#55 Posted by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

Let's stop this nonsensical, media driven ideology that Lebron is on Mj's level. This couldn't be farther from the truth. Lebron has been to the nba finals 3 times, and has 1 ring. He has yet to amass the amount of MVPs mj has had, although he most likely will. He has yet to amass the amount of scoring championships mj had (11 consecutive, when he played) and never will. He has yet to win a defensive player of the year award, or lead the league in steals. And most importantly, he has yet to win 6 nba championships, 6 mvps, while never losing ONCE in the nba finals. Stop this nonsense. When LBJ averages at least 40ppg in the nba finals, call me. When lbj averages over 31ppg & 11apg in the nba finals, call me. When lbj gets to at least 3 rings, call me. Until then, all the "he will eventually win 6" BS, is just that, a load of presumptuous BS.

Don't get me wrong. Lbj is one of the top players this league has ever seen. Same with Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, etc. But MJ is on a level of his own.

#56 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10228 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Sorry I didn't mean to insult your intelligence. But back to the subject, you can't deny Jordan was far more clutch at the end of games. That's been Lebron's Achilles heel all these years. Lebron was always passive when it came to taking the winning shot and the times he did he hardly made them. Jordan never had that problem, he had more of a killer instinct when it came time to close teams out. Jordan was by far a better jump shooter and defender also. Look Lebron is great so is Kobe but neither of them are in Jordan's league. Yeah it's a team game but at the end of the day you need to have multiple rings to be in the greatest of all time category. That's why Jordan is still relevant because of how dominant he was. Guy's like him, Joe Montana, Jerry Rice, Wayne Gretzsky and Jeter are in another category when it comes to greatness.

Bill Russell under that idea is the best of all times.

Jordan won 6 or 7, i dont remember well, Bill Russell won 11 when he played 13 years in the NBA, Jordan play like 15 years and only won 6 or 7.

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar won as much championships as Jordan, but he won 6 MVP and Jordan only won 5.

Without Pippen, Jordan never won a championship, without Magic, Kareem actually won a championship.

Kobe even won championships without Shaq.

Jordan always said he was first, then the team, he play so he can score as much as he can, Magic as big as he was, he always let the other guy take the shot and give the ball to the best player to make the shot, many people belive that was his magic power, he knew who had the best shot.

Still Wilt Chamberlain even as an arrogant i can do everything myself player, made 6 games when he score over 70 points, still he was more of a team player that Jordan, Chamberlain give the ball to his team when he was in problem and when they had a a better shot, not only that Chamberlain had an amazing rebound numbers.

Wilt Chamberlain was the most dominant force of nature the NBA ever saw.

Heck people forget Dennis Rodamn won with Detroit before being with the Bulls and Jordan, who Detroit beat in thow 2 years, The Bull with Jordan.

#57 Edited by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

In Jordan's BEST season his #'s were 31.5ppg, 6rbs, 5.5ast, 2.7 steals,and he was shooting 51%,34%,& 85% from the field, from 3-point land and from the free throw line. In Lebron's BEST season his #'s were 26.8pts, 8.2rbs, 7.3asts, 1.7 steals per game, 56% shooting, 39% three-point shooting, 75% free-throw shooting.

lol Why are you presenting an inaccurate representation of MJ's best stats? Don't bring mj's best stats down to seem leveled with Lebron's. How in the world is that stat line better than his year in '88? 32.5ppg (better), 8apg (better, best in career), 8rpg (better, best in career), 2.9 steals (better, second best in career), 54% from the field (MUCH BETTER), 27% from 3 (finally worse), 85% from line (about the same). This year destroys the stat year that you posted. 32.5ppg, 8rpg, 8apg, 2.9stls while shooting 54% from the field. STOP PRESENTING INACCURATE INFORMATION TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS. Others might not know, but I definitely do. lol

#58 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24058 posts) - - Show Bio

@deathpoolthet1000: : How could you say a guy is the best ever in a sport hat has so many great players,

You can say he is the best ever because nobody has dominated the game like MJ has he can do it all,defend,rebound,pass,steal,take the clutch basket I can keep going on and on about why MJ has a claim for the G.O.A.T and is the G.O.A.T.

not only that, even when the NBA did everything to help Jordan to be as big as they can make him,

Every superstar gets special treatment from the NBA,not just MJ.

The only criteria that puts Jordan #1 is endorsements, media hype and popularity.

I disagree.

Many go to he numbers, but like i have said about LeBron Fails, the numbers just show a part of the picture, many player in the numbers look amazing, but they fail at the killer factor and never live to the full potential.

This is really not relevant to Jordan because he never had a problem being a killer,Jordan is the Hannibal Lecter of the NBA.

Larry Bird and Magic Johnson at their prime would had problems to beat Jordan,but would had beat him

They only problem I have went Magic and Bird is they are not very good defensive players Jordan is one of the best defenders ever and that gives him a edge over these two.Not to mention Bird only had 10 Great years under his belt do to injuries and Magic had his career cut short due to H.I.V. ultimately that hurt both of there G.O.A.T cases.Not to mention Magic played with better players then MJ did and so did Larry

so does Wilt Chamberlain and Oscar Robertson.

Wilt is nothing but a stat padder that cared about nothing but stats and his image while Big O was a horrible teammate.Add that to the fact that the era they played in was the weakest in NBA history,with guys 6 "8" playing center and the black guys could not even get in the NBA because of racism and that is where the problem is what there G.O.A.T. cases.

1994 and 1995: Jordanless Bulls still kicked ass,

But in the end they won nothing.

then Jordan gets back and gets his ass kicked,

Fair enough.

then Rodman gets in the Bulls and they win, not only that Jordanless Bulls had a better season that when Jordan was back..

That and the fact Jordan took of some years and probably still was rusty.

Without Dennis Rodman, Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant, Jordan wasnt the great player people belive he was

How many players in NBA history won by themselves?This case with in it self is flawed I never said Jordan won by himself.....Nobody has.

the first 3 years with the Bull he was in the loser team, then the other guys enter and the Bulls became so huge.

You would be losing if Orlando Wooldridge is one of your best guys on your team.And again everyone needs help,no one in the history of the NBA has done it by themselves.

You can make a case for other players as the G.O.A.T I never said you could not but all and all I would take Jordan over the rest.

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#59 Edited by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

@novi_homines said:

This logic makes absolutely no sense. The same can be said for lebron, if you're following this logic. The celtics stopped winning titles 4 yrs before Lebron won his first. And the spurs stopped winning titles 5 years before lebron won his first. Lebron also didn't win his title by going through a great lakers/celtics/spurs team. 2011 celtics were GOOD but 08-10 was their heyday. If you're considering them as "dynasties" during lbj's era.

I don't think you understood the point I was making. You said that the Celtics and Lakers are two of the greatest dynasties ever. That's true but they weren't at their best in Jordan's era. Even with the Bulls not winning a title, neither team won a championship at all in the 90's. Lebron didn't win a title by going through those 3 teams but they are WHY he couldn't win that title. He had to see all of those teams in the playoffs. They all also won championships while Lebron has some of his best seasons.

@novi_homines said:

don't be partial. But obviously you're coming at this from a biased perspective, so that is to be expected.

These are my favorite NBA players. As you can see none of them are Lebron. I'm also a Lakers fan and couldn't stand the Miami Heat since Shaq left and went there. I have no reason to be partial to Lebron James.

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#60 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24058 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Your a Lakers fan but you still like Rondo? :O

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#61 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

@novi_homines said:

@vance_astro:

In Jordan's BEST season his #'s were 31.5ppg, 6rbs, 5.5ast, 2.7 steals,and he was shooting 51%,34%,& 85% from the field, from 3-point land and from the free throw line. In Lebron's BEST season his #'s were 26.8pts, 8.2rbs, 7.3asts, 1.7 steals per game, 56% shooting, 39% three-point shooting, 75% free-throw shooting.

lol Why are you presenting an inaccurate representation of MJ's best stats? Don't bring mj's best stats down to seem leveled with Lebron's. How in the world is that stat line better than his year in '88? 32.5ppg (better), 8apg (better, best in career), 8rpg (better, best in career), 2.9 steals (better, second best in career), 54% from the field (MUCH BETTER), 27% from 3 (finally worse), 85% from line (about the same).

I didn't say that those were MJ's BEST STATS, I said that those stats were from MJ's BEST SEASON, which was his 1990-91 season when he won his first title and first finals MVP as well as being league MVP that season.

@vance_astro:

STOP PRESENTING INACCURATE INFORMATION TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS. Others might not know, but I definitely do. lol

Actually I haven't said anything false.

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#62 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@vance_astro: Your a Lakers fan but you still like Rondo? :O

I don't have any reason to not like the Celtics because I'm a Lakers fan. I started rocking with the Lakers when Kobe came into the league and the Celtics weren't any good for most of that time. When the Celtics and Lakers really had a rivalry I was a baby.

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#63 Edited by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

I don't think you understood the point I was making. You said that the Celtics and Lakers are two of the greatest dynasties ever. That's true but they weren't at their best in Jordan's era. Even with the Bulls not winning a title, neither team won a championship at all in the 90's. Lebron didn't win a title by going through those 3 teams are WHY he couldn't win that title. He had to see all of those teams in the playoffs.

I understand exactly what you're saying, it just isn't true, in my opinion. mj got eliminated by the celtics in '86 and in '87, that team was the force everyone is accustomed with. And the detroit pistons' dynasty eliminated MJ in '88, '89' and '90. That's 5 consecutive years of being eliminated DIRECTLY by 2 of the 3 other dynasties of his era. Meanwhile, the 3rd dynasty, the lakers, headed to the finals in 87, 88, 89, and 91. How can you consider these lakers not part of mj's era? They were still at their best in jordans era.

In comparison to lbj, spurs stopped him in '07 (never won again), and boston stopped him in '08 and '10. Thats only 3 years of a direct elimination due to other dynasties. And that's with me giving you 2 yrs of boston being a dynasty. Which I still don't understand how they can possibly be a dynasty considering they've only been to the finals twice, and won only one championship in their prime.

If anything, a better argument would be made that in MJ's prime (which you didn't say), all of the other dynasties had died out. But if you're going along those lines of thinking, the EXACT same thing can be said about lebron. So either way, I don't see how you're right on this.

#64 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (24058 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: Ah I see, I asked because some Lakers fans I know can't stand anyone that plays for the Celtics.I'm Mavs fan but Tim Duncan is one of my favorite NBA players of all time,but some Mavs fans can't stand Timmy. xD

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#65 Posted by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

Also, LBJ is one of my FAVORITE players in the league. But that doesn't mean i'm stupid enough to put him right there with MJ, lol.

#66 Edited by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

I didn't say that those were MJ's BEST STATS, I said that those stats were from MJ's BEST SEASON, which was his 1990-91 season when he won his first title and first finals MVP as well as being league MVP that season.

Well then, I guess we'll just agree to disagree on that one.

#67 Edited by _slim_ (13075 posts) - - Show Bio

MJ's ability carried him and the Bulls to prominence in an era of basketball that was dominated by physicality because of the lack of talent.

#68 Posted by SavageDragon (2250 posts) - - Show Bio

No that era or Jordan himself were not overrated. Don't listen to the haters.

#69 Posted by _slim_ (13075 posts) - - Show Bio

Jordan was not overrated, but his competition was.

Jerome Kersey, Charles Oakley, Xavier McDaniel, Bill Lambier, Rick Mahorn. Do you know why were remember these names or the names of guys like them? Certainly not for their unbelievable talent. The fact is there weren't too many players who had a complete game back then. Your bigs were brutes, rebounders, shot blockers, intimidators. Your guards were quick shooters, fast scorers, and always looking for an entry pass. But once in a blue moon, you'd get these players that could do more than what was expected. You'd get a Karl Malone, a John Stockton, Hakeem Olajuwon, truly exceptional players who transcended their positions and would stand out because they were doing more. Look at the players today. Kevin Garnett is an excellent shooter. Kobe Bryant is an excellent post player. Pau Gasol can hit a 20 foot jumper. Dwayne Wade is a terrific rebounder. You have complete games everywhere. Granted no one has the "fire" that MJ had, but the players today have the overall (complete) game that lacked in the 80's and 90's.

#70 Edited by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

@novi_homines said:

Also, LBJ is one of my FAVORITE players in the league. But that doesn't mean i'm stupid enough to put him right there with MJ, lol.

Putting him in comparison with MJ doesn't make anyone stupid either.

I understand exactly what you're saying, it just isn't true, in my opinion. mj got eliminated by the celtics in '86 and in '87, that team was the force everyone is accustomed with. And the detroit pistons' dynasty eliminated MJ in '88, '89' and '90. That's 5 consecutive years of being eliminated DIRECTLY by 2 of the 3 other dynasties of his era. Meanwhile, the 3rd dynasty, the lakers, headed to the finals in 87, 88, 89, and 91. How can you consider these lakers not part of mj's era? They were still at their best in jordans era.

I didn't say anything about the Pistons. The Pistons WE'RE at their best during Jordan's era. I guess the Lakers & Celtics were pretty good during that same era but I wasn't counting them in Jordan's obstacles during his playing time. I mean he lost to those teams early in his career but when the Bulls started dominating in the 90's, the Celtics & Lakers hadn't won a title that entire decade and between them the Lakers only made the finals once.

@novi_homines said:

If anything, a better argument would be made that in MJ's prime (which you didn't say), all of the other dynasties had died out. But if you're going along those lines of thinking, the EXACT same thing can be said about lebron. So either way, I don't see how you're right on this.

The same thing couldn't be said about Lebron honestly because Lebron's prime began in 07-08 season. The Lakers won 2 titles back-to-back in that time.

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#71 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

@vance_astro: Ah I see, I asked because some Lakers fans I know can't stand anyone that plays for the Celtics.I'm Mavs fan but Tim Duncan is one of my favorite NBA players of all time,but some Mavs fans can't stand Timmy. xD

The only teams I don't like is the Heat & the Knicks. Bosh & Melo are two of my faves but I can't stand these teams fans.

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#72 Posted by novi_homines (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro:

I didn't say anything about the Pistons. The Pistons WE'RE at their best during Jordan's era.

Well at least we agree on the pistons.

I guess the Lakers & Celtics were pretty good during that same era but I wasn't counting them in Jordan's obstacles during his playing time. I mean he lost to those teams early in his career but when the Bulls started dominating in the 90's, the Celtics & Lakers hadn't won a title that entire decade and between them the Lakers only made the finals once.

I'm saying I don't see the difference between mj losing early to them, and lbj "losing early in his career" to both the celtics and spurs. If you don't consider that time period his era because the lakers or Cs hadn't been significant when "the bulls started dominating the 90s", then neither should lebron's era be prior to 2010, due to lakers and celtics not being significant either. I just don't see the same logic being applied to both sides.

The same thing couldn't be said about Lebron honestly because Lebron's prime began in 07-08 season. The Lakers won 2 titles back-to-back in that time.

We can agree to disagree on this part.

#73 Posted by DeathpooltheT1000 (10228 posts) - - Show Bio

@dccomicsrule2011:Jordan play with Pippen, Jordan never won a championship without Pippen, Pippen is one of the best, Pippen was amazing and gets praise by Phil Jackson in how good he was, Pippen was one of the best and is in the list of the best NBA players of all time.

Dennis Rodman: He led the NBA in rebounds per game for a record seven consecutive years and won five NBA championships, not only that he grabbed 11,954 rebounds, many people belive is about points, but who controls rebounds and assistances is going to win the game.

Jordan need people to give him the ball, thats why they hired Rodman, also the whole he was amazing defense, people forget that Magic knew how to beat him.

Also he was awful when he gets "posted up" i think is how peole call it, Magic used this in Jordan several times

People talk about Jordan numbers, now is about the numbers?.

Oscar Robertson, the most complete NBA player ever in the numbers.

30.8 ppg, 12.5 rpg, 11.4 apg.

Scoring: Chamberlain was better

Rebounding: Chamberlain was better

Passing: Chamberlain was better

Defense:Jordan was better, but not by much

#74 Edited by ssejllenrad (12847 posts) - - Show Bio

Everything about the 90's was overrated and that's the beauty of it. We can talk smack about the current generation cause the 90's people narcissistically claim dominance in all fields in all cultures in the whole wide world.

#75 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (24058 posts) - - Show Bio
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#76 Posted by Oscuro (985 posts) - - Show Bio

Look at his competition in the NBA finals

Clyde Drexler- Hall of Famer

Magic Johnson- Hall of Famer

Charles Barkley- Hall of Famer

Gary Payton- will be a Hall of Famer

James Worthy- Hall of Famer

Karl Malone- Hall of Famer

John Stockton- Hall of Famer

That's just who he played in the finals and he is 6 for 6 in the finals and won Final MVP each time. That doesn't diminish his comp imo. And there were quality teams back then who played tougher smarter and were more fundamentally sound than nowadays. Knicks, Pacers and Houston to name a few, who also each had a Hall of Famer themselves. So to me the era wasn't overrated, but it damn sure wasn't underrated.

#77 Posted by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5015 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. Lebron's not looking anywhere near clutch right now. Might want to rethink putting him anywhere near Jordan. Spur's are looking like they are going to beat Miami. Lebron better step up or he's going to be 1 and 3 in the Finals.

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#78 Posted by Nerx (15088 posts) - - Show Bio

He is god tier

#79 Posted by Strafe Prower (11887 posts) - - Show Bio

No, they era was not overrated.

#80 Edited by SideburnGuru (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

I prefer his era over the current era.


#81 Posted by Glitch_Spawn (17132 posts) - - Show Bio

What is basketball?

#82 Edited by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

Bump. Lebron's not looking anywhere near clutch right now. Might want to rethink putting him anywhere near Jordan. Spur's are looking like they are going to beat Miami. Lebron better step up or he's going to be 1 and 3 in the Finals.

I agree, we should all use one game to judge greatness. Check out one of Jordan's finals games that I not so randomly picked: 6 of 19, 0-3 from three, three rebounds, two assists, one steal. The only conclusion I can draw is that Jordan is nowhere close to Bill Russell's GOAT tier, he didn't help his team in any area except when the refs gifted him with 11 FT's.

Indiana looked like they were going to beat the Heat too, Boston last year the same in addition to OKC.

#83 Edited by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5015 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15: The fact of the matter is Jordan and the Bulls never lost in the Finals. Lebron hasn't played well this series either. Game 2 he had a triple double but the other 2 games he's been a no show when it comes to scoring. He choked last night which is his MO, Jordan didn't have that problem.

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#84 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lone_wolf_and_cub: Jordan fans/homers like to bring up that he never lost in the finals, but he certainly lost quite a few times before then, including getting swept more than once. Yes, he was perfect but the teams he faced weren't exactly juggernauts. Jordan was not perfect. Give LeBron and Wade their primes on the same team and they'd win 6 titles.

#85 Posted by HumanRocket (7737 posts) - - Show Bio

No. Look up the Detriot Pistons and see how physical they played. No where close to how physical teams can play now a days. Jordan had to go through that team. Hakiem was a beast back than thousands of times better than any big man now a days. Jordan had to go through that. I know many people argue about how the Shaq and Kobe duo was the best in history but people always forget about Stockton and Malone. Yes they never won the title but that duo was in my opinion and I'm a lakers fan but more dominate than the Shaq and Kobe duo. Jordan had to play against them for titles 5 and 6. If you really take a look at the league when Jordan played its by far more talanted and more fundamental than today's players and teams. Despite my dislike of them but the San Antonio Spurs come close to being a throw back 80s/ early 90s team. There style of play is the type of play that was seen in the league minues the physicality. Jordan's titles were well earned.

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#86 Edited by Lone_Wolf_and_Cub (5015 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15: Yeah you're right he wasn't perfect, but he was when it mattered the most. Let me know when Lebron or Wade can say the same. The teams Jordan faced we're far better than the teams Lebron has faced. Seriously the Mavs schooled Miami. Jordan's Bulls would've trounced the Mavs. This really isn't even debateable. Numbers don't lie and at the end of the day Jordan's body of work is far more impressive than any other player in the NBA. Most people agree he is the greatest player of all time and one of if not the most dominant player in any sport.

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#87 Posted by SideburnGuru (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

Glad to see I'm not alone with saying he wasn't overrated, nor was his era exactly.

As for the Lebron/Jordan argument? I will never respect Lebron as much as I do Jordan. Not because of the "legendary status". It's because Jordan always just seemed more of the down to earth type of guy. He seemed dedicated. He wanted to win, but he was also in it because he just loved playing. He didn't take cheap ways out. He didn't automaticaly jump into the all-star team. He tried other sports. He was an influence to MANY stars of today.

I don't think Lebron will ever accomplish any of that. That's just my opinion, and how I see it.

#88 Posted by redbird3rdboywonder (3960 posts) - - Show Bio

i hate Lebron so much i'd rasengan him in the face if i could

#89 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lone_wolf_and_cub said:

@xanni15: Yeah you're right he wasn't perfect, but he was when it mattered the most. Let me know when Lebron or Wade can say the same. The teams Jordan faced we're far better than the teams Lebron has faced. Seriously the Mavs schooled Miami. Jordan's Bulls would've trounced the Mavs. This really isn't even debateable. Numbers don't lie and at the end of the day Jordan's body of work is far more impressive than any other player in the NBA. Most people agree he is the greatest player of all time and one of if not the most dominant player in any sport.

Would you rather make the finals 6 times or 11 times? Jordan's teammates>>>>>>LeBron's Cleveland teammates, and it's not close. Jordan didn't face juggernauts, and when he did they blasted him (i.e. swept by Boston). I never said LeBron was greater than him, just that he does belong in the same conversation. Going by Jordan's own criteria, 11 beats 6 every time I look at it. There's no way Jordan could have gotten LeBron's Cavs to the finals.

#90 Edited by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideburnguru said:

As for the Lebron/Jordan argument? I will never respect Lebron as much as I do Jordan. Not because of the "legendary status". It's because Jordan always just seemed more of the down to earth type of guy. He seemed dedicated. He wanted to win, but he was also in it because he just loved playing. He didn't take cheap ways out. He didn't automatically jump into the all-star team. He tried other sports. He was an influence to MANY stars of today.

Uh, what? Read "The Jordan Rules" and see how down to Earth he was. It's actually the opposite, Jordan might be the most condescending and arrogant person in NBA history. I guess LeBron needs to punch his teammates in the face and constantly berate them in front of millions.

#91 Edited by SideburnGuru (1338 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15 said:

@sideburnguru said:

As for the Lebron/Jordan argument? I will never respect Lebron as much as I do Jordan. Not because of the "legendary status". It's because Jordan always just seemed more of the down to earth type of guy. He seemed dedicated. He wanted to win, but he was also in it because he just loved playing. He didn't take cheap ways out. He didn't automatically jump into the all-star team. He tried other sports. He was an influence to MANY stars of today.

Uh, what? Read "The Jordan Rules" and see how down to Earth he was. It's actually the opposite, Jordan might be the most condescending and arrogant person in NBA history. I guess LeBron needs to punch his teammates in the face and constantly berate them in front of millions.

I guess. I read the reviews, and the summary. Some people are even saying the things in the book could be considered a stretch. It definitely wasn't the opposite, and you're DAMN wrong about the most condescending.

I understand what he did, but if you think that makes him the most condescending and arrogant, you're damn wrong. How many players has Lebron insulted? At least Micheal has done influentinal stuff. I'm sticking to that. When I met Micheal? Coolest guy I've ever got to meet in sports. I understand you read that book, and I'm not saying the book is wrong. But I'm going off personal experience, and I know that some books are just made to make a person look scandalous.

#92 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@sideburnguru: I don't know. How many has LeBron insulted? Punched?

LeBron has been influential as well. I feel the same about LeBron, incredibly friendly and down to Earth.

#93 Posted by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

@humanrocket said:

No. Look up the Detriot Pistons and see how physical they played. No where close to how physical teams can play now a days. Jordan had to go through that team. Hakiem was a beast back than thousands of times better than any big man now a days. Jordan had to go through that. I know many people argue about how the Shaq and Kobe duo was the best in history but people always forget about Stockton and Malone. Yes they never won the title but that duo was in my opinion and I'm a lakers fan but more dominate than the Shaq and Kobe duo. Jordan had to play against them for titles 5 and 6.

How was Stockton & Malone more dominant than Shaq & Kobe with 0 rings? Because they made it to the finals several times and lost? Makes no sense. If they had to play the Stockton\Malone Jazz in the finals, they would have won too because they didn't have a decent center or any big men that could have done anything effective with Shaq let alone Kobe.

@humanrocket said:

If you really take a look at the league when Jordan played its by far more talanted and more fundamental than today's players and teams.

This isn't true.

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#94 Posted by HumanRocket (7737 posts) - - Show Bio

@vance_astro: did I say they were a dominate duo becuase they won more title? NO don't assume that's what I said. There a more dominate duo becuase of the time they played. The teams they had to best to get to the finals were more talented than the teams than Kobe and Shaq played. And ur ability to prove that my statement about how the 80/90s teams were more talented is impressive...not.

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#95 Edited by Vance Astro (91196 posts) - - Show Bio

@humanrocket said:

@vance_astro: did I say they were a dominate duo becuase they won more title? NO don't assume that's what I said. There a more dominate duo becuase of the time they played. The teams they had to best to get to the finals were more talented than the teams than Kobe and Shaq played.

No, but you're are twisting what "dominant" means. How can you dominate and not win a major title? That doesn't make sense. Kobe & Shaq were CLEARLY the better duo. Winning when it matters the most is what DOMINATING is.

The teams they had to best to get to the finals were more talented than the teams than Kobe and Shaq played. And ur ability to prove that my statement about how the 80/90s teams were more talented is impressive...not.

I didn't try and disprove it, I simply said it wasn't true.

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#96 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (24058 posts) - - Show Bio

lol @ Malone and Stockton being more dominate then Shaq and Kobe,Malone was never really that good in the clutch while Stockton was very good,he never was what you would call a great player. While on the other hand Shaq is one of the most dominate players to ever play the game and the Mamba well.....The name pretty much speaks for itself.

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#97 Posted by King Saturn (224025 posts) - - Show Bio

lol @ Malone and Stockton being more dominate then Shaq and Kobe,Malone was never really that good in the clutch while Stockton was very good,he never was what you would call a great player. While on the other hand Shaq is one of the most dominate players to ever play the game and the Mamba well.....The name pretty much speaks for itself.

Agreed, Malone and Stockton was Consistently Good... but not Dominant. I mean they only made the NBA Finals twice in all the years they played together... while Kobe and Shaq won 3 three titles together while essentially playing half of the time together Stockton and Malone did...

#98 Edited by dccomicsrule2011 (24058 posts) - - Show Bio

@king_saturn said:

@dccomicsrule2011 said:

lol @ Malone and Stockton being more dominate then Shaq and Kobe,Malone was never really that good in the clutch while Stockton was very good,he never was what you would call a great player. While on the other hand Shaq is one of the most dominate players to ever play the game and the Mamba well.....The name pretty much speaks for itself.

Agreed, Malone and Stockton was Consistently Good... but not Dominant. I mean they only made the NBA Finals twice in all the years they played together... while Kobe and Shaq won 3 three titles together while essentially playing half of the time together Stockton and Malone did...

Indeed, I do not think there is a case to be made. Dominance is measured by winning and unfortunately Malone & Stockton has never won anything. Hell Karl Malone and Stockton being in the top 5 NBA duo of all time is debatable.

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#99 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

Is someone really trying to claim that the 90's were a stronger era than the 80's?

#100 Edited by comic_book_fan (5563 posts) - - Show Bio

@xanni15:

magic was still very god about where kobe is now not primed but still very good.

Isaiah Thomas primed

Barkley primed

clyde primed

Stockton Malone primed

almost all of them were primed.

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