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#1 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

"Claimed they were drunk off playing Mortal Kombat and Finished Her"

Johnstown - A quiet, working-class neighborhood in this small town 40 miles north of Denver quickly became distraught over the news of the death of a popular 7-year-old girl, who allegedly died from abuse by her older sister and her boyfriend.

Zoe Garcia, who was described as "a beautiful little girl", died on Dec. 6 from "blunt force trauma" to her brain and central nervous system, according to the Weld County Coroner. Her right wrist was broken, her body had more than 20 bruises, her neck muscles were bleeding and a skin flap near her tongue had been torn.

Zoe's older sister, Heather Trujillo, 16, and her boyfriend, Lamar Roberts, 17, of Westminster, were arrested Tuesday and charged with child abuse resulting in death, a Class II felony. They are in custody, each being held on $100,000 bond.

According to the arrest affidavits, Trujillo told investigators she and Roberts were babysitting Zoe and her twin, 3-year-old sisters, while their mother worked at the Corral Bar about five blocks away.

Trujillo said they were acting out the video game "Mortal Combat" by savagely hitting and kicking Zoe, even dropping her on her side, which broke her wrist. Roberts, who claimed to be a martial-arts expert with his hands registered as "lethal weapons, said Zoe had asked him to stop hitting her but that he didn't because "...I was drunk."

Roberts said he had performed a back kick on her, then kicked her again as she ran toward him. She fell back and didn't get up. She had stopped breathing, and Trujillo and Roberts waited 15 minutes before calling for help.

They said they put her in a bath, which temporarily revived her, but that she stopped breathing again. Roberts said he cracked an egg in her mouth "to see if she was messing around with them."

The egg went down her throat, the affidavit stated.

Finally, the mother and paramedics were called. Zoe was taken to the Northern Colorado Medical Center where she was pronounced dead.

One neighbor said she suspected Zoe was being abused and said she reported it to authorities before she died.

Rhonda Simonetti said she baby-sat Zoe and her twin sisters twice, for four days each time, when she noticed bruises on Zoe.

"The first time I asked her, she said she fell down the stairs," Simonetti said. "The second time, she started crying and said Lamar had been hitting her."

Simonetti said she took a day off to report the abuse but never heard back.

Gloria Romansik, an administrator with Weld County Social Services, said today she could not comment on the case.

The mother, who has since moved out of the house, could not be reached. The owner of the bar, Jairo Landeros, said the mother still worked there but wouldn't be back until New Years Eve.

Landeros is the father of Nikko Landeros, the Berthoud wrestler who lost his legs in an automobile accident. Landeros bought the Corral Bar earlier this year, after a fundraiser for Nikko was held there.

Neighbors describe the Trujillo family, who moved into the quiet, working-class neighborhood last April as "combative."

"They didn't fit in," said next-door neighbor, Laura Valdivieso. "They were noisy and disruptive."

She said Zoe was "a beautiful little girl, she made friends with everybody. I gave her a jumprope, which she used almost every single day."

John Valdivieso said Zoe once asked him for some bread, which he understood to mean she was looking for food to eat. He gave her half a loaf.

"When the police came to tell us she had died, my wife took it very hard. She started crying," he said. "Zoe helped me dig out some dandelions last summer. She was very sweet."

Read more:Sister charged in "Mortal Kombat" death of 7-year-old - The Denver Posthttp://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_7760927#ixzz2Lkdk9er5

Heather Trujillo (sister) and Lamar Roberts (boyfriend) charged.
Two teenagers have been charged with killing one of the pairs’ own 7-year-old sister using alleged Mortal Kombat imitation moves. The 16 and 17 year old teens were babysitting the child while the girl’s mother was at work when the incident happened.
The two teens reportedly hit, kicked, and body-slammed 7-year-old Zoe Garcia, causing “a broken wrist, more than 20 bruises, swelling of the brain, and bleeding in her neck muscles and under her spine”, the affidavits have said. Prosecutors are claiming the teens were imitating “wrestling moves” found in the Mortal Kombat video game.
The 17 year old Roberts claimed he was downstairs at the time, drunk and playing video games, but witnesses told authorities otherwise. One witness stated that according to Roberts, Zoe pleaded with them to stop wrestling with her, but he did not stop. When asked why he refused to stop, Roberts answered “I don’t know; I was drunk.”
There is no defense for this kind of crime. The pure malice you need in order to kill a 7 year old girl that brutally does not come, nor is there any evidence it comes from, video games. The fact video games are being dragged into this horrendous debacle is indicative of the current state of affairs and only reinforces the publics misconceived perception regarding the impact of videogame violence.
If the two teens are convicted, they face up to 48 years in prison.
#2 Posted by 7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning (3578 posts) - - Show Bio

Probing Question: Do violent games (Movie, books, Magazines, comics) really turn on the evil beast in people?

#3 Posted by FalconPuuunch (942 posts) - - Show Bio

No. Videogames don't do this. Idiots who don't know how to control themselves or their liquor do this. They also spelled "Kombat" wrong.

#4 Posted by akbogert (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

First of all, this was very, very difficult to read, and infuriating for so many reasons.

I hesitate to even respond because I am emotional.

But.

One of the things that infuriates me is the way senseless, horrible things like this are immediately turned into canned political arguments. There's not probing at all about that question. It's rote, it's trite, and frankly it's an insult to this poor little girl to turn her personal case of abuse and murder into a talking point about media.

Video games are art. They, like every other artistic medium, portray a wide range of human and fantasy experiences. Some of those are beautiful and uplifting, and others are dark and repulsive. I loathe Mortal Kombat and fatalities, but I recognize they are no more loathsome than events in the movie Gladiator or many accounts in the epic poem The Iliad. People do horrible things to one another, and sometimes fictional characters do horrible things to one another. We don't need art to make us behave terribly. I'd argue we sometimes need art to keep us from behaving terribly.

But one of the most glaringly stupid things about this is that neither of the people involved in the killing of this girl were old enough to be playing the game that is being blamed. They had that game provided to them. And while yes, one of them was 17 at the time of the crime and technically old enough, I find it very, very hard to believe that that was his first M-rated game. This is dreadful parenting, through-and-through. Leaving minors to take care of three year-olds? Leaving a teen couple responsible for three young children? Providing them adult-level entertainment isn't even the most blatant display of defaulted responsibility here. But it is part of it, and it's the relevant part when we want to talk about gaming.

Because whether or not media like Mortal Kombat influenced these kids, they should not have been playing it, and relied on elders to make it and any other games like it available to them. If events like this are going to result in a games discussion, let's have the right one: the one about parents paying attention to the media their kids have access to, and the repercussions of bad parenting.

#5 Posted by Blood1991 (8098 posts) - - Show Bio

This was already covered in another thread "A Master Jon one if I recall".

This isn't a freaking games fault. If so you might as well blame boxing, cage fighting, wrestling, all action films, all horror films, 80% of cartoons, music and any other bull sh!t that points fingers at everything, but the two people who murdered a child.

#6 Posted by Inverno (13043 posts) - - Show Bio

I think we got that discussion through a long time ago.

#7 Posted by YourNeighborhoodComicGeek (19884 posts) - - Show Bio

For the last time it isn't video games.

Its stupid people.

#8 Posted by Bruxae (12188 posts) - - Show Bio

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

Online
#9 Posted by The Stegman (22735 posts) - - Show Bio
That poor little girl :( 
#10 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32129 posts) - - Show Bio

@FalconPuuunch said:

No. Videogames don't do this. Idiots who don't know how to control themselves or their liquor do this. They also spelled "Kombat" wrong.

nope

Online
#11 Posted by FalconPuuunch (942 posts) - - Show Bio

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@FalconPuuunch said:

No. Videogames don't do this. Idiots who don't know how to control themselves or their liquor do this. They also spelled "Kombat" wrong.

nope

5th paragraph 1st line. They spelled Kombat with a "C". (Combat)

#12 Posted by Jonny_Anonymous (32129 posts) - - Show Bio

@FalconPuuunch said:

@Jonny_Anonymous said:

@FalconPuuunch said:

No. Videogames don't do this. Idiots who don't know how to control themselves or their liquor do this. They also spelled "Kombat" wrong.

nope

5th paragraph 1st line. They spelled Kombat with a "C". (Combat)

Aaah I cry your pardon gunslinger.

Online
#13 Posted by dccomicsrule2011 (22867 posts) - - Show Bio

@FalconPuuunch said:

No. Videogames don't do this. Idiots who don't know how to control themselves or their liquor do this. They also spelled "Kombat" wrong.

#14 Posted by mk111 (3139 posts) - - Show Bio

Wow, thats sad. :(

#15 Posted by akbogert (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

@The Stegman said:

That poor little girl :(

Aye. That's what this thread should be about.

Ugh. I hate people sometimes.

#16 Posted by AllStarSuperman (19499 posts) - - Show Bio

How can people be so horrible?

#17 Posted by Pyrogram (34313 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@The Stegman said:

That poor little girl :(

Aye. That's what this thread should be about.

Ugh. I hate people sometimes.

I hate people most of the time.

#18 Posted by Avenging-X-Bolt (12401 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

this. these types of people are disasters waiting to happen.

#19 Posted by TheBlackestNight (67 posts) - - Show Bio

Damn that story made me feel weird hella sad

#20 Posted by ThatGuyWithHeadPhones (9862 posts) - - Show Bio

well i'm bummed now i...mean *sigh* people can be just so *sigh*

#21 Posted by JonSmith (3980 posts) - - Show Bio

@Blood1991 said:

This was already covered in another thread "A Master Jon one if I recall".

That's MasterJOHN. With an H. I don't want any possible confusion between myself and him.

On topic: In this case, if they were actually doing Mortal Kombat moves, then a legitimate argument could be made that this could not have happened with Mortal Kombat's presence. The equally legitimate counterargument that will be promptly ignored will be that it would still have happened, just without the video game excuse. These people would have done this anyway. The video game was basically irrelevant, and the fact that it's going to be remembered not as a horrible thing that happened, but as a point in an argument, truly disgusts me.

Now for a palette cleanser.

Feel better?

#22 Posted by ghostsuck (129 posts) - - Show Bio

stop blaming video game

#23 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

You have no way of knowing that, and furthermore why wouldn't they have done it sooner if this were the case? Why couldn't Mortal Kombat have been the "trigger" that caused this?

#24 Posted by akbogert (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

@Xanni15 said:

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

You have no way of knowing that, and furthermore why wouldn't they have done it sooner if this were the case? Why couldn't Mortal Kombat have been the "trigger" that caused this?

Actually, there's psychology which supports that. You don't just become a murderer because of something you watch or play or read. There's absolutely no reason to believe that this game, or any game, was the only violent stimulus which could have triggered the latent inclination towards psychotic violence. Also: this was a two-person murder. Trying to point the finger anywhere but at these teenagers is simply red herring redirect in the worst way. It's one thing to say they needed a trigger; it's another to say that it being a video game was the reason Mortal Kombat triggered it.

#25 Posted by Nefarious (18360 posts) - - Show Bio

Here we go again with the videogame and violence discussion....

#26 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@Xanni15 said:

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

You have no way of knowing that, and furthermore why wouldn't they have done it sooner if this were the case? Why couldn't Mortal Kombat have been the "trigger" that caused this?

Actually, there's psychology which supports that. You don't just become a murderer because of something you watch or play or read. There's absolutely no reason to believe that this game, or any game, was the only violent stimulus which could have triggered the latent inclination towards psychotic violence. Also: this was a two-person murder. Trying to point the finger anywhere but at these teenagers is simply red herring redirect in the worst way. It's one thing to say they needed a trigger; it's another to say that it being a video game was the reason Mortal Kombat triggered it.

Do you a link to the research? Not that I don't believe you but I'm interested in reading about it. :]

Until then, the environment you're in has a direct impact on your actions. I don't see how anyone can claim that violent media (video games, movies, TV shows, etc.) has ZERO impact on developing violent tendencies (I know that you're saying that), but if you're raised in a violent culture (which the USA is) you'll become desensitized to violence. They specifically stated that they were practicing "Mortal Combat" moves.

I'm not trying to shift the blame at all, both of these people should be on Death Row (or just killed on the spot for all I care) for the atrocity they committed, but I don't know for sure they would have done this if they were playing Nintendo Dogs.

#27 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (17504 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@Xanni15 said:

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

You have no way of knowing that, and furthermore why wouldn't they have done it sooner if this were the case? Why couldn't Mortal Kombat have been the "trigger" that caused this?

Actually, there's psychology which supports that. You don't just become a murderer because of something you watch or play or read. There's absolutely no reason to believe that this game, or any game, was the only violent stimulus which could have triggered the latent inclination towards psychotic violence. Also: this was a two-person murder. Trying to point the finger anywhere but at these teenagers is simply red herring redirect in the worst way. It's one thing to say they needed a trigger; it's another to say that it being a video game was the reason Mortal Kombat triggered it.

True in fact there is actually evidence to support that violent games have the opposite effect.

#28 Posted by Gambit1024 (9890 posts) - - Show Bio

Finish him. Fatality. Flawless victory. Toasty. (I'm so so sorry)

#29 Posted by mrdecepticonleader (17504 posts) - - Show Bio

After reading through that...damn what a terrible incident no I don't think there are worlds invented that describe this.

....

First things first as people have said video games are not to blame in any shape or form.It says they where drunk so they were intoxicated this has an effect on people also says that they were disruptive so they are obviously mentally ill.One is not in there right mind to commit this that is certain.

I could post more but I just feel sickened by this.

#30 Edited by Crimsonlord53 (1291 posts) - - Show Bio

What an unlucky little girl seem's nobody who could have prevented this from happing was awake at the switch.

Funny that there's not a bigger uproar over the fact that minor's where drunk. The game may have played a small part but not the whole the fact that there is a history of abuse the mother being away and a lack of "adult" supervision leads to tragedies like this.

#31 Posted by akbogert (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

@Xanni15: I'd actually place the burden of proof on you. Common sense dictates that people behave according to nature & nurture -- and that mere exposure to a single piece of media is hardly impetus enough to entirely change a person's morality and propensities towards any given activity. Call me in a few years if you want actual research, as I've just been taken into a PhD program where I'll be studying the pro-social effects of violent video games.

I would never claim that violent media has "no effect." I suggested earlier that I believe our ability to live out violence through media may actually provide the catharsis necessary for curbing otherwise violent people from acting out their inclinations on other people. Even if that proves untrue (and it's something I do want to research in my career), there is still the question of proving that games are any more influential than other media; the matter of the media having been labeled for, marketed to, and sold to adults whose behavioral and psychological malleability are less than that of children; and the fact that they could have been watching or reading a violent thing and still wanted to act it out -- that the violent media happened to be interactive has not been proven to be intrinsic to its function as a trigger of already-innate propensity towards violence. I have guaranteed been exposed to more violent content more frequently than those kids and I would never, nor could I ever, do something like that to a child, especially my own siblings. To suggest the media just makes people act a certain way is to ignore the millions of people who watch violent movies and play violent games and never do anything of this sort.

And after all of that, you can't prove that violent games make people violent just because violent people played games. It may well be that naturally violent people are drawn towards playing violent games -- but they were already violent before having done so.

#32 Edited by BlueHope (360 posts) - - Show Bio

This is stupid, a couple of retarded teens drink like hell then did sh##, and what caused this is a Game?!!

#33 Posted by jeanlucpicard (1845 posts) - - Show Bio

I could see a 7 -10 year old trying out mortal kombat moves cuz they are young and stuff but 16 and 17? and they were drunk? The young girl, if she doesn't goto prison for a very long time she has to live with the fact she killed her own sister. I would be suprised if she makes it to 25.

#34 Posted by ImmortalOne (3256 posts) - - Show Bio

Really? Bring up video games? This is a very sad thing. We do not need to pin the blame on video games.

VIDEO GAMES DO NOT MAKE PEOPLE VIOLENT.

I mean honestly, how many sane people have played COD and just went out and shot up a town? No one. Chances are, they had mental issues, were abused, bullied, or tons of other factors to take in.

This was not "video games make people violent," this was just child abuse, plain and simple.

#35 Posted by Bruxae (12188 posts) - - Show Bio

@Xanni15 said:

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

You have no way of knowing that, and furthermore why wouldn't they have done it sooner if this were the case? Why couldn't Mortal Kombat have been the "trigger" that caused this?

Im not denying it triggered events in this situation, my point was that the kids in question is obviously suffering from some sort off psychological issues otherwise they wouldnt have done this, so if their game of Mortal Kombat hadnt been played something else would almost certainly trigger this violence at another point in time.. So in no way was the video game to blame because it did not cause anything, it simply triggered a vulnerable mind that would have snapped sooner or later anyway.

@Xanni15 said:

@akbogert said:

@Xanni15 said:

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

You have no way of knowing that, and furthermore why wouldn't they have done it sooner if this were the case? Why couldn't Mortal Kombat have been the "trigger" that caused this?

Actually, there's psychology which supports that. You don't just become a murderer because of something you watch or play or read. There's absolutely no reason to believe that this game, or any game, was the only violent stimulus which could have triggered the latent inclination towards psychotic violence. Also: this was a two-person murder. Trying to point the finger anywhere but at these teenagers is simply red herring redirect in the worst way. It's one thing to say they needed a trigger; it's another to say that it being a video game was the reason Mortal Kombat triggered it.

Do you a link to the research? Not that I don't believe you but I'm interested in reading about it. :]

Until then, the environment you're in has a direct impact on your actions. I don't see how anyone can claim that violent media (video games, movies, TV shows, etc.) has ZERO impact on developing violent tendencies (I know that you're saying that), but if you're raised in a violent culture (which the USA is) you'll become desensitized to violence. They specifically stated that they were practicing "Mortal Combat" moves.

I'm not trying to shift the blame at all, both of these people should be on Death Row (or just killed on the spot for all I care) for the atrocity they committed, but I don't know for sure they would have done this if they were playing Nintendo Dogs.

I live in sweden and I collect horror movies, im also a complete gaming nerd so im no stranger to violent media.. Infact, where I come from there is zero censoring going on, while theres quite alot over in the USA, so from what you are saying that should classify sweden as extremely violent no? Yet we are known for being one of the most peaceful countries there is, theres not much crime here especially compared to places like the USA wich has a very high crime rate.

And that is just my personal experience, so no.. I dont believe media has any real impact except they might occasionally trigger a sick mind, but not once have I heard of a case where its the actual CAUSE of a mind getting sick.

Online
#36 Edited by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@mrdecepticonleader said:

@akbogert said:

@Xanni15 said:

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

You have no way of knowing that, and furthermore why wouldn't they have done it sooner if this were the case? Why couldn't Mortal Kombat have been the "trigger" that caused this?

Actually, there's psychology which supports that. You don't just become a murderer because of something you watch or play or read. There's absolutely no reason to believe that this game, or any game, was the only violent stimulus which could have triggered the latent inclination towards psychotic violence. Also: this was a two-person murder. Trying to point the finger anywhere but at these teenagers is simply red herring redirect in the worst way. It's one thing to say they needed a trigger; it's another to say that it being a video game was the reason Mortal Kombat triggered it.

True in fact there is actually evidence to support that violent games have the opposite effect.

And there's also evidence which contradicts that too. :]

@Bruxae said:

@Xanni15 said:

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

You have no way of knowing that, and furthermore why wouldn't they have done it sooner if this were the case? Why couldn't Mortal Kombat have been the "trigger" that caused this?

Im not denying it triggered events in this situation, my point was that the kids in question is obviously suffering from some sort off psychological issues otherwise they wouldnt have done this, so if their game of Mortal Kombat hadnt been played something else would almost certainly trigger this violence at another point in time.. So in no way was the video game to blame because it did not cause anything, it simply triggered a vulnerable mind that would have snapped sooner or later anyway.

I won't jump to conclusions as to their mental state during this horrific situation, you may well be correct, though. I still don't agree that it's a certainy that something else owuld have triggered it, there's literally no way of knowing. If what you say is true, that the game triggered the incident, then how is the game not to blame, even partly like 0.000000000000001%? If a violent video game is a trigger.

@Bruxae said:

Do you a link to the research? Not that I don't believe you but I'm interested in reading about it. :]

Until then, the environment you're in has a direct impact on your actions. I don't see how anyone can claim that violent media (video games, movies, TV shows, etc.) has ZERO impact on developing violent tendencies (I know that you're saying that), but if you're raised in a violent culture (which the USA is) you'll become desensitized to violence. They specifically stated that they were practicing "Mortal Combat" moves.

I'm not trying to shift the blame at all, both of these people should be on Death Row (or just killed on the spot for all I care) for the atrocity they committed, but I don't know for sure they would have done this if they were playing Nintendo Dogs.

I live in sweden and I collect horror movies, im also a complete gaming nerd so im no stranger to violent media.. Infact, where I come from there is zero censoring going on, while theres quite alot over in the USA, so from what you are saying that should classify sweden as extremely violent no? Yet we are known for being one of the most peaceful countries there is, theres not much crime here especially compared to places like the USA wich has a very high crime rate.

And that is just my personal experience, so no.. I dont believe media has any real impact except they might occasionally trigger a sick mind, but not once have I heard of a case where its the actual CAUSE of a mind getting sick.

Actually no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm not placing 100% of the blame on Mortal Kombat, violent video games, or even censorship. The US's crime rate is more complicated than that. :P

If violent media triggers something like this, then I fail to see how it doesn't have a real impact. Maybe I'm just not really understanding what you're saying, if so my fault. I'd appreciate it if you could please expand on it. :]

#37 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@Xanni15: I'd actually place the burden of proof on you. Common sense dictates that people behave according to nature & nurture -- and that mere exposure to a single piece of media is hardly impetus enough to entirely change a person's morality and propensities towards any given activity. Call me in a few years if you want actual research, as I've just been taken into a PhD program where I'll be studying the pro-social effects of violent video games.

Did I say a single piece of media? I asked the other poster whether it were possible that Mortal Kombat was merely the trigger. I never made such a ridiculous claim that these despicable people would have murdered someone else given enough time, without proof.

I was just asking for whatever source you got your information from, I wasn't challenging it. Good luck with your research. :]

@akbogert said:

I would never claim that violent media has "no effect." I suggested earlier that I believe our ability to live out violence through media may actually provide the catharsis necessary for curbing otherwise violent people from acting out their inclinations on other people. Even if that proves untrue (and it's something I do want to research in my career), there is still the question of proving that games are any more influential than other media; the matter of the media having been labeled for, marketed to, and sold to adults whose behavioral and psychological malleability are less than that of children; and the fact that they could have been watching or reading a violent thing and still wanted to act it out -- that the violent media happened to be interactive has not been proven to be intrinsic to its function as a trigger of already-innate propensity towards violence. I have guaranteed been exposed to more violent content more frequently than those kids and I would never, nor could I ever, do something like that to a child, especially my own siblings. To suggest the media just makes people act a certain way is to ignore the millions of people who watch violent movies and play violent games and never do anything of this sort.

There's various studies, which I can locate if you desire, that shows that the American people (I'm just focusing on the US) have been and are continuously desensitized by various forms of media, which includes video games. Of course I'm not claiming that video games are the only reason or form of media which contributes, but it's all to blame. Also, my apologies, I meant to say "I know that you're NOT saying that" so I am sorry for any confusion. As for your own personal experience, with all due respect it is just that, I don't think anyone would make the claim that everyone will commit murder just due to being in a violent culture. I'm merely proposing that it is more likely. Media has been proven to make people act a certain way, we're all influenced by what we see, hear, read, etc, it's subconscious. I wouldn't need to prove that media affects everyone, just enough.

@akbogert said:

And after all of that, you can't prove that violent games make people violent just because violent people played games. It may well be that naturally violent people are drawn towards playing violent games -- but they were already violent before having done so.

And the poster which I originally replied to can't prove that these people would have committed murder in another situation, nor can you or I prove or disprove that these people were violent before this tradegy, at least going by the article.

#38 Posted by akbogert (3180 posts) - - Show Bio

@Xanni15 said:

@akbogert said:

@Xanni15: I'd actually place the burden of proof on you. Common sense dictates that people behave according to nature & nurture -- and that mere exposure to a single piece of media is hardly impetus enough to entirely change a person's morality and propensities towards any given activity. Call me in a few years if you want actual research, as I've just been taken into a PhD program where I'll be studying the pro-social effects of violent video games.

Did I say a single piece of media? I asked the other poster whether it were possible that Mortal Kombat was merely the trigger. I never made such a ridiculous claim that these despicable people would have murdered someone else given enough time, without proof.

I was just asking for whatever source you got your information from, I wasn't challenging it. Good luck with your research. :]

Thank you :). As for sourcing, my point is that that's just basic psychology. I can't point to a specific source -- just read texts on the subject of human development. The "psychology to support that" I mentioned (which you asked about) is more psychology in general -- a single stimulus does not have that kind of effect on a person. The fact that you mentioned trigger implies that you'd agree -- there was already something there, a propensity, which something -- a game, in this case -- acted as the catalyst for bringing out. I didn't make the claim that they would have murdered either, but the fact that they did murder so terribly implies that any number of other stimuli, when combined with the opportunity, could just as easily have resulted in triggering that propensity. The prevalence of violent media in society combined with these teens' evident access to said media as well as lack of supervision and position of power over other children does suggest that there is a greater likelihood that violence would have been manifested another time had it not done so this time. It's also likely that abuse had happened prior, given the reports about the bruises. The fact that this abuse happened to go too far does not mean it was the only time these teens were violent towards the girl.

@Xanni15 said:

@akbogert said:

I would never claim that violent media has "no effect." I suggested earlier that I believe our ability to live out violence through media may actually provide the catharsis necessary for curbing otherwise violent people from acting out their inclinations on other people. Even if that proves untrue (and it's something I do want to research in my career), there is still the question of proving that games are any more influential than other media; the matter of the media having been labeled for, marketed to, and sold to adults whose behavioral and psychological malleability are less than that of children; and the fact that they could have been watching or reading a violent thing and still wanted to act it out -- that the violent media happened to be interactive has not been proven to be intrinsic to its function as a trigger of already-innate propensity towards violence. I have guaranteed been exposed to more violent content more frequently than those kids and I would never, nor could I ever, do something like that to a child, especially my own siblings. To suggest the media just makes people act a certain way is to ignore the millions of people who watch violent movies and play violent games and never do anything of this sort.

There's various studies, which I can locate if you desire, that shows that the American people (I'm just focusing on the US) have been and are continuously desensitized by various forms of media, which includes video games. Of course I'm not claiming that video games are the only reason or form of media which contributes, but it's all to blame. Also, my apologies, I meant to say "I know that you're NOT saying that" so I am sorry for any confusion. As for your own personal experience, with all due respect it is just that, I don't think anyone would make the claim that everyone will commit murder just due to being in a violent culture. I'm merely proposing that it is more likely. Media has been proven to make people act a certain way, we're all influenced by what we see, hear, read, etc, it's subconscious. I wouldn't need to prove that media affects everyone, just enough.

I am not arguing against the idea of desensitization, so you needn't provide that research. I'm saying that video games have not been proven any more impactful than any other media, though many people seem to assume that the interactive component just implies that. It's unfounded assumption, but a popular one. And while I appreciate your dismissal of anecdotal evidence, the fact remains that millions and millions of people are exposed to tremendous amounts of violent content without ever acting violently themselves. Therefore we must assume that that is an unrelated, incidental factor when we look at the rare cases in which people do commit atrocities. Even if all of them happened to have played violent games or liked violent movies, that proves nothing besides the fact that they were part of the majority of the American population. If they were obsessed with highly violent content, then again, my argument (below) stands that they had those tendencies prior to exposure to games and would have found an outlet in any of a variety of other violent media had games been unavailable.

@Xanni15 said:

@akbogert said:

And after all of that, you can't prove that violent games make people violent just because violent people played games. It may well be that naturally violent people are drawn towards playing violent games -- but they were already violent before having done so.

And the poster which I originally replied to can't prove that these people would have committed murder in another situation, nor can you or I prove or disprove that these people were violent before this tradegy, at least going by the article.

Obviously this was covered earlier. I do think the part of the article referring to past abuses of the little girl does prove that these people were violent before, but of course it's possible that someone else -- like the parents who weren't there to abuse her -- could have done it. Circumstantial, yes, but it seems these teens had a lot of time alone with the girl, so if she was getting bruises it was likely from them. You don't just go from never touching someone to treating them like a punching bag and brutally murdering them, not typically. This reads a lot more like a case of violence which had slowly escalated over the years and just now reached a point where it maxed out. No, I can't prove that, but based on the information we do have I would expect to find more evidence which supported that theory.

#39 Posted by Yung ANcient One (4595 posts) - - Show Bio
The game is irrelevant. Why don't people blame parents, & teachers(in general not occupation wise.) It is always sad to lose someone. Life is precious, but it is especially heart breaking when it is an innocent child's life. If there's a heaven may she be at the purest peace of paradise. (+)
#40 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@akbogert said:

@Xanni15 said:

Thank you :). As for sourcing, my point is that that's just basic psychology. I can't point to a specific source -- just read texts on the subject of human development. The "psychology to support that" I mentioned (which you asked about) is more psychology in general -- a single stimulus does not have that kind of effect on a person. The fact that you mentioned trigger implies that you'd agree -- there was already something there, a propensity, which something -- a game, in this case -- acted as the catalyst for bringing out. I didn't make the claim that they would have murdered either, but the fact that they did murder so terribly implies that any number of other stimuli, when combined with the opportunity, could just as easily have resulted in triggering that propensity. The prevalence of violent media in society combined with these teens' evident access to said media as well as lack of supervision and position of power over other children does suggest that there is a greater likelihood that violence would have been manifested another time had it not done so this time. It's also likely that abuse had happened prior, given the reports about the bruises. The fact that this abuse happened to go too far does not mean it was the only time these teens were violent towards the girl.

There's something there in all of us, we're all capable of violence but we don't all commit it. Personally I don't believe people are born to be murders or rapists, etc, they learn to be. As far as the trigger, like I said there's not really anything to suggest that a nonviolent video game or media would have triggered them, I just used the Nintendo Dogs as an example but there's others. I don't believe it's a coincidence that Mortal Kombat (one of the most violent video games ever) was involved here. I don't understand, you're admitting that violent media influenced them and would have in another situation, so what are we disagreeing about?

@akbogert said:

I am not arguing against the idea of desensitization, so you needn't provide that research. I'm saying that video games have not been proven any more impactful than any other media, though many people seem to assume that the interactive component just implies that. It's unfounded assumption, but a popular one. And while I appreciate your dismissal of anecdotal evidence, the fact remains that millions and millions of people are exposed to tremendous amounts of violent content without ever acting violently themselves. Therefore we must assume that that is an unrelated, incidental factor when we look at the rare cases in which people do commit atrocities. Even if all of them happened to have played violent games or liked violent movies, that proves nothing besides the fact that they were part of the majority of the American population. If they were obsessed with highly violent content, then again, my argument (below) stands that they had those tendencies prior to exposure to games and would have found an outlet in any of a variety of other violent media had games been unavailable.

But they don't need to be proven to have more impact than other media, it's more than enough that they do have at least an equal amount of impact. I am not blaming this entirely on MK, that would be ignorant, I am merely saying it contributed to it. It wasn't meant to be disrespectful, but I'm not really concerned or focused on those who are not committing violent acts, every single person doesn't commit them but that doesn't automatically disprove anything. If in a hypothetical world someone was shielded from violent media and acts, would you agree that they would be much less likely to commit such acts? Whether or not they have prior tendencies (which IMO are learned)?

@akbogert said:

Obviously this was covered earlier. I do think the part of the article referring to past abuses of the little girl does prove that these people were violent before, but of course it's possible that someone else -- like the parents who weren't there to abuse her -- could have done it. Circumstantial, yes, but it seems these teens had a lot of time alone with the girl, so if she was getting bruises it was likely from them. You don't just go from never touching someone to treating them like a punching bag and brutally murdering them, not typically. This reads a lot more like a case of violence which had slowly escalated over the years and just now reached a point where it maxed out. No, I can't prove that, but based on the information we do have I would expect to find more evidence which supported that theory.

I guess I missed that, my mistake. I would agree they these two are likely behind those previous bruises. This all had to start somewhere with these two, I can only speculate about their own past. Were they abused, maybe their mother or siblings, was the female involved forced or pressured to participate, do they have mental issues (besides the obvious, of course)? I don't want it to seem like I'm defending their actions cause it's exactly the opposite. I just want to know why, and based off the information we have listed in the article, I don't believe there's enough info.

#41 Posted by comicace3 (3466 posts) - - Show Bio

@7am_Waking_Up_In_The_Morning: No. People are always blaming vid games, movies, and music for how people react which doesn't make sense at all because not everyone is the same. They were just idiots who did an outrageous thing to a poor little girl.

#42 Posted by YoungJustice (6641 posts) - - Show Bio

Not that it is good that girl died, but good thing the littl(er) ones weren't touched. Still, R.I.P the girl, she was way too young.

#43 Posted by lorbo (1541 posts) - - Show Bio

@Xanni15 said:

@akbogert said:

@Xanni15 said:

@Bruxae said:

Im sure he would of ended up killing someone even if he hadnt played a video game.

You have no way of knowing that, and furthermore why wouldn't they have done it sooner if this were the case? Why couldn't Mortal Kombat have been the "trigger" that caused this?

Actually, there's psychology which supports that. You don't just become a murderer because of something you watch or play or read. There's absolutely no reason to believe that this game, or any game, was the only violent stimulus which could have triggered the latent inclination towards psychotic violence. Also: this was a two-person murder. Trying to point the finger anywhere but at these teenagers is simply red herring redirect in the worst way. It's one thing to say they needed a trigger; it's another to say that it being a video game was the reason Mortal Kombat triggered it.

Do you a link to the research? Not that I don't believe you but I'm interested in reading about it. :]

Until then, the environment you're in has a direct impact on your actions. I don't see how anyone can claim that violent media (video games, movies, TV shows, etc.) has ZERO impact on developing violent tendencies (I know that you're saying that), but if you're raised in a violent culture (which the USA is) you'll become desensitized to violence. They specifically stated that they were practicing "Mortal Combat" moves.

I'm not trying to shift the blame at all, both of these people should be on Death Row (or just killed on the spot for all I care) for the atrocity they committed, but I don't know for sure they would have done this if they were playing Nintendo Dogs.

I agree with Xanni man. That's saying something...I don't always do.

#44 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lorbo said:

I agree with Xanni man. That's saying something...I don't always do.

I appreciate your support. :D I just like to bring up an opposing viewpoint, get some discussion going.

#45 Posted by lorbo (1541 posts) - - Show Bio

What it comes down to is this...if you could pull a switch and wipe mortal kombat and all games like it in exchange for one human life, would you do it?

Anything can be argued to a standstill, but what is more valuable?

A game that says brutal violence toward other members of your species is OK (even though it usually isn't unless in self-defense by law)?

Or a human life?

Now that is the tough question that no one here will bother to answer.

#46 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lorbo: Pfft, I'll answer it. :P

I would choose the human life every single time without a doubt and with no delay.

#47 Posted by lorbo (1541 posts) - - Show Bio

@Xanni15 said:

@lorbo: Pfft, I'll answer it. :P

I would choose the human life every single time without a doubt and with no delay.

What is this? Us two vs the majority eh? Still I rather burn with a few people who value human life over a silly game.

#48 Posted by Xanni15 (6758 posts) - - Show Bio

@lorbo said:

@Xanni15 said:

@lorbo: Pfft, I'll answer it. :P

I would choose the human life every single time without a doubt and with no delay.

What is this? Us two vs the majority eh? Still I rather burn with a few people who value human life over a silly game.

Outside of a few people, nobody really wants to discuss things such as why this happened and how it can be prevented in the future. All most people see is us attacking video games.

#49 Posted by SC (12505 posts) - - Show Bio

@lorbo said:

What it comes down to is this...if you could pull a switch and wipe ten 5 year old children who display overly aggressive behavior and all children like it in exchange for the one hundred human lives or maybe all human lives, would you do it?

Anything can be argued to a standstill, but what is more valuable?

Humans that have tendency for brutal violence toward other members of your species is OK (even though it usually isn't unless in self-defense by law)?

Or a hundred human life?

Now that is the tough question that no one here will bother to answer.

I hope you don't mind, but I just made your question tougher, will you please answer it?

Probably the tougher thing to do is to actually disagree with the premise because nothing in real life should be reduced to flicking a switch. Where's the actual reasoning and intelligent discourse and educated arguments and such that point out that its not as simple as reducing risk to a few by denying "trivialities" to others. Switch arguments are non exclusive.

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#50 Posted by SC (12505 posts) - - Show Bio

Do violent games (Movie, books, Magazines, comics) really turn on the evil beast in people?

Violence can be subjective, humans are naturally violent anyway, no such thing as evil, people don't have switches for off and on.

Since humans are naturally violent (as far as they have complicated brains powers by complicated chemicals they can't opt out of and thus they react to a broad range of stimuli with differing results, usually subjectively though also in the sense that human perceptions are limited and so the line between perceived dangers and actual dangers are blurry) then human endeavors including entertainment tend to be violent as well (as well as reflective of many other human experiences and traits)

This subjectivity in human experience and perception naturally means that the way they depict and understand violence will differ in degrees. So when talking about violent anything, it can be useful to define it. The violence will probably be relative. Do they turn on the evil beast in people? Well, not really, but can they influence violence in people? Absolutely, but the tricky part is that everything can, will and does influence, inspire and motivate people to violence including non violent stimuli. Violence can also pacify people to violence, and desensitize and sensitize people. Just like pretty much everything else in the world. There aren't really any simple answers here other than it depends. There is no evil beast here either, its just human nature at work, that and ignorance.

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